3 Channel vs. 7 Channel Amps

sbcgroup1 · « **on:** 16 Jun 2004, 02:19 pm »

I was originally going to pick up (2) 3 channel amps, now I am considering a 7 channel. All are rated at 600wpc @ 4 ohms, and both are Earthquake Cinenovas.

I don't know if I'd be sacrificing audio quality going with more channels in one chassis instead of less. All channels are isolated monoblocks.

The only plus is that going with the 7 channel instead will save me some money and allow me to pick up another pair of rears for 7.1.

-Ed

ctviggen · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 03:00 pm »

Hi Ed,

I don't think you'd be sacrificing anything. However, are there really 7 600 wpc amps in one chassis? That'd be 7x600 = 4,200 watts with all amps producing max power (and that doesn't include losses). That's about 35 amps! Of course, you won't ever get near that, but that's a lot of power. Plus, how big is it and can you move it? My 5-channel weighs about 70 pounds, and it's not easy to move!

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 03:17 pm »

Bob-

Cinenova 3 = 119lbs.
(http://www.earthquakesound.com/cinenova_3.htm)

Cinenova 7 = 161lbs. (http://www.earthquakesound.com/Cinenovagrande7.htm)

I don't care about the weight...just want to make the best choice.

-Ed

ctviggen · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 03:38 pm »

Hi Ed,

OK, just don't invite me over to help you move it!

Assuming there's enough power to run the thing, I doubt that there's any sonic difference between the 3-channel and 7-channel. They're basically 3 or 7 channels of the same amp in one housing. Each channel has its own power supply. That's also the way my Bryston/Lexicon is designed. Heat might be a problem, though.

I do have to say that the ratings on this are a bit wacked out. It has a 20 amp circuit breaker, so there's no way it could actually produce 7 channels at 600W, as that would be more than 20amps. Nonetheless, the reviewers liked it and never came close to tripping the breaker, so I wouldn't be too worried.

lkosova · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 05:06 pm »

Ed,

either way . Go with what is cheaper for you. They are single chassis and the nice thing is that they can be removed indivually if something goes wrong with one of the units so you don't have to send the whole unit in.

Very Nice Amp. I did not know that they made a 7 channel yet though. I thought you could do a 5 plus 2 or 4 pus 3 etc. I hope I am not reading this wrong.

Have Fun!!

Larry
Audio and Image

jgubman · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 05:22 pm »

Hi Ed,

I've been thinking about selling my 2 3-channel Cinenovas and getting a 7 channel as well. But like ctviggen, I just don't understand HOW they could have possibly power 7 channels 600w. I *think* the 7 channel has the same toridial as the 3 and 5 channel amps. It certainly doesn't have two power cords.

I don't know, I'm a little skeptical, has anyone reviewed or measured the 7 channel yet?

lkosova · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 05:33 pm »

Sorry,

Just went on the website and yes they have a 7-channel.

Tie down the foundation!!!

Larry

ctviggen · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:04 pm »

In one of the reviews, they say that there is one large transformer. " The chassis layout of the Cinenova Grande is similar to the other amplifiers in this review segment, but everything is scaled up in size. There is an enormous 40 pond, 3.6kVA, ferrite core toroidal power transformer positioned vertically just behind the front panel"

In another of the reviews they say that this is a true independent design: "Opening up the top cover of the Cinenova Grande several things are noticeable right away; One, the Cinenova is a true monaural design with five discrete blocks, each with its own power supply and a 15 ampere capability[.]"

It's unclear how this is designed. See the Bryston review (this is the amp I have):

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_2/bryston9bstpoweramplifier.html

This has completely separate power supplies per channel. However, I don't know whether it's better to have multiple small transformers (0.25 kVA in the Bryston, for a total of 1.25kVA) or one HUGE transformer (3.6kVA in the case of the 5-channel Cinenova) with individual windings for each channel.

zybar · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:04 pm »

I heard the Cinenova amps at HE 2004 and man can they play loud and clean. The demo of T3 must have been around 110+ db's!!

Since they didn't play music and my ears were practically bleeding, I can't speak for how they will sound on music.

George

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:07 pm »

This is turning into a good debate. I was going to write out a check this Friday for two of the Cinenova 3's. Let's get to the bottom of this!!

Whats John Casler's opinion on this?

-Ed

zybar · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:16 pm »

Ed,

Just curious, why Cinenova? What other amps were on your list?

GW

jgubman · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:29 pm »

Each "monoblock" (dubbed EZXS by earthquake) has a power supply circuit that is fed by the massive toridial. I took a brief tour of their Menlo Park headquarters w/ their chief engineer Joeseph (quite a character) and he showed me the toridial. It's huge indeed.

I always wondered how the single toridial powered the 5 channels at 600w per (or even 1000w @ 2ohm!), but now they've upped the ante to 7 channels? I'd REALLY like to see someone challenge their claim of 1,000 watts x 7. It's a very impressive feat that they could manage that w/o tripping a 20amp circuit breaker. Another thing that's always puzzled me about Earthquake, is they claim it needs a 20 amp circuit, but it comes w/ a 15 amp plug. I have my 2 cinenovas on a single 20amp circuit though, and PG&E cycled our power this morning at 5am (thanks). I immediately ran downstairs to check the system out, and the two cinenovas had indeed tripped the circuit at the breaker when PG&E turned the power back on (I always leave my apms powered up).

Another reason for my skepticism is at CES this year, I was talking w/ an engineer at a huge amplifier company whose product the Earthquake Cinenova very suspiciously resembles (Joeseph himself told me he wanted to copy their look w/ the Cinenova). This engineer had a unabashed disllike for Joeseph and Earthquake and claimed that the Earthquake amps didn't meet their specs. I've never seen a reviewer or measurement that backed up this claim, however.

Personally, I've been very happy w/ my Cinenovas. They play loud and clear, have a very low noise floor and great distortion specs.

jakepunk · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:41 pm »

In the vein of "Go with what is cheaper for you", does anyone have any opinions on the Outlaw 755 5-channel amp? It is certainly one tier down from Cinenova at $1300, but for a $ensible Sound guy like me, the price/performance looks attractive at 5 * 300W @ 4 ohms. What sonic improvements will I get for an extra $2200? I don't listen to dinosaurs and squealing tires; I would be driving two Tower IIs and an RM30C. True, I wouldn't be using 2/5 channels, but the price/performance is very attractive.

ctviggen · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:42 pm »

I think there are a lot of these multi-channel amps that won't meet their specs. There's no way (theoretically) that you can get 4,200 watts from 120 volts when the circuit breaker is 20 amps. However, I think that in real use, you won't come anywhere near the max power output. I used to have both my amps (7 channels) and a ton of other stuff running through my Monster Power center, which has a current meter. When I was cranking a movie like the Matrix or a DVD like the Blue Man Group, even with 5 channels blasting loud enough to hurt (and the TV, DVD, preamp, etc. plugged in), I still only pushed 6 amps.

I now have my two amps plugged into one 20 amp circuit and the rest of my stuff still plugged into the MP center.

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:45 pm »

George-

Well, lord knows I would have loved to go with those Jeff Rowland monoblocks you have. I'm also a McIntosh fan. It just seems like the pricing on those amps are prohibitive and I can get real close in performance to them with my Cinenovas. Unless I am dead wrong**

Anyways, originally I was planning to go with some of the Outlaw amps (good pricing...300wpc @ 4 Ohms) until I spoke to John Casler (Los Angeles) and he clued me in on the Cinenova stuff. Due to the attractive pricing (I think they're a great bargain), and 600wpc @4ohms power handling in a multichannel configuration, I decided to go that route. I was going to use a Cinenova 3 to power my RM40's and RM30C up front. The second was going to power my rear LRC's and Larger sub. I'm going to go with the Sherwood Newcastle P-965 pre/pro to tie it all in. **I have never heard a Cinenova, but there are a few VMPS owners using them and they seem to be very happy with them. John uses the Cinenova3's in his system to do demos.

Anyways, I just ordered my VMPS speakers in African Ebony this past Friday....lol....

Give me some feedback & opinions & suggestions, etc, if any.

Later-

-Ed

jgubman · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:46 pm »

True, I just like products to be rated truthfully.

Where's the Audio Critic when you need him?

ctviggen · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:48 pm »

Jake,

I think someone reviewed the Outlaw favorably with the Proceed, which I like (my friend has all Proceed gear). My Jeff Rowland is nicer than the Proceed (we did a direct comparison), but it was also almost four times the price. The thing with audio gear is what you don't know won't hurt you, and it's what you do know that sucks the money out of your pocket. You can always order the Outlaw and return it in 30 days. Also, you could biamp your mains with the other two "unused" channels of the Outlaw. This would be a good thing.

jgubman · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 06:49 pm »

Ed,
congratulations on finally nailing down your system. I know you've spent a lot of time weighing your options and it sounds like you've nailed it. I'm glad to see the decisions you made, I think you'll be very, very happy w/ your new system!

zybar · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 07:15 pm »

Ed,

First off, why not buy used (sorry John)? This will effectively double your buying power.

Secondly, why spend so much to power your surround channels (unless you are doing mc music)? Instead of spending "x" on the surrounds, why not spend 1/2 "x" and take that savings and put it into "better" amps for the L/R which are much more critical.

Third, don't get caught up in the numbers game. I have heard amps rated at "x" watts that didn't sound half as good as an amp with 1/2 or 1/4 the output.

Lastly, can you return the amps if you don't like them? I would be very hesitant to buy ANY gear that I have never heard and that I couldn't return. The only exception to that would be if I was buying at a price at which I could sell the item without taking a big loss if I didn't like it.

Best of luck and I wish you well.

George

ctviggen · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 07:52 pm »

I did what George recommends -- I spent the vast majority of my amp money on my two channels and then spent a little on surround, as I like two channel much better than surround. Heck, my Onkyo gave me pretty good sound for movies (although the sound is better now).