[doggie]

Day 2 of speakers placed straight ahead (no toe-in).  Lots of great listening today.  In every case, soundstage and depth are better than ever.  I don't understand why.  I just know that instrument placement and clarity is more precise but with a robust and fuller sound.  Even my center channel speaker has more depth.

Thanks for this Marcus. Based upon your positive experience with minimal toe in I rearrange my X5's similarly. I previously had them pointed just outside my shoulders.

Like you, I experienced an improvement in soundstage and imaging: better localization, better center fill and more detail.

[abomwell]

Thanks for this Marcus. Based upon your positive experience with minimal toe in I rearrange my X5's similarly. I previously had them pointed just outside my shoulders.

Like you, I experienced an improvement in soundstage and imaging: better localization, better center fill and more detail.

I'm also giving this a try with my X5's now. Too soon to have an opinion but I measured both ways, speakers pointed at shoulders and straight ahead. Straight ahead maximizes the lateral mode cancellation. My room is 15.25' wide causing a resonate frequency of 74Hz where there is definitely a measured peak. Pointing the speakers straight ahead lowered that by 5dB which is good!  It also deepened a null at 50Hz. I suspect the rear wave is getting more cancellation now that the woofer is perfectly perpendicular to the front wall 53" behind.  But nulls are more difficult to hear than are peaks so overall it sounds better in the bass. The overall frequency range between 200Hz and 2kHz measures flatter by 3dB especially at 500Hz and 2kHz which is also good.

As expected without toe-in the upper midrange above 2kHz and above is down about 3dB. At first it sounded rather dull but as I listen I'm liking it better as it sounds more like what I hear in a concert hall. And I can increase the volume without it sounding strident which I certainly like!

There also seems to be more spaciousness. With my speakers toed in the lateral null was pointed at, and cancelled, the first sidewall reflection and needed no absorption there. But now, without toe-in, there is some reflection but I'm enjoying the added width it seems to offer. We'll see how, or if, that affects other things like transients.

I'll listen this way for a few days and see if I like it long term.

[Desertpilot]

I continue to be very satisfied with no toe-in.  Lately, I've played a lot of solo piano music.  The upper piano notes play through the AMT driver.  No issues at all with music reproduction, soundstage and depth.  The music plays equally well at high and low volume levels.  No doubt I will keep this speaker position.

Piano Music:
-- "Reverie" by Bart Koop (2021 release).  Recorded by TRPTK and available at Native DSD or directly from TRPTK.  Wonderful stress reduction piano music.  (Catalog #TTK0074).  Listen to samples and you might agree this is beautiful music.  His earlier album, "Nocturnal" is also excellent.
-- "NOX" by Hannes Minnaar (2020 release).  Recorded by Challenge Classics and available at Native DSD.  More energetic piano music but lovely nonetheless.  (Catalog #CC72853).

I know I need to complete REW measurements.  But, I am so satisfied with what I am getting now that I don't want to be disappointed with poor measurements.  I'll get to it.  I'll upload the results as well.

Marcus

[Desertpilot]

I'm also giving this a try with my X5's now. ...
I'll listen this way for a few days and see if I like it long term.

Thanks Al for your expert analysis.  This encourages me to continue with no toe-in.

Marcus

[abomwell]

Well, thanks Marcus, but I'm light years away from being an expert (at anything). Lol, but as they say, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I know enough to be dangerous .

[Desertpilot]

-- "Reverie" by Bart Koop (2021 release).  Recorded by TRPTK and available at Native DSD or directly from TRPTK.  Wonderful stress reduction piano music.  (Catalog #TTK0074).  Listen to samples and you might agree this is beautiful music.  His earlier album, "Nocturnal" is also excellent.

Marcus

I decided to try and understand what I was hearing with this music.  It sounds like a piano inside a great hall.  Not echo and I can't adequately describe it.  There is space all around every piano note.  It is certainly not direct sound although the piano is right there, center stage, all along the front wall.  I looked through the booklet and guess what?  It was recorded in a church, very wide, deep and tall.  Photos show a Steinway Concert Grand with the cover removed.  There are 4 microphones close to the piano strings.  Additionally, there is a microphone tree, to one side of the piano, with several microphones up about 10 or 15 feet in the air.  Lastly, microphones, further away, surrounding the performance area, pointing towards the walls of the church.

There you have it.  I was hearing the piano close and far, mixed together.  Very realistic.

Marcus

[abomwell]

As I've been listening and comparing for the past three hours, back and forth, the straight vs. toe-in positions, I'm hearing slightly better imaging and articulation with toe-in. There are things that frequency response measurements don't reveal. BUT, in a concert hall imaging is vague and actually more like what I'm hearing with the straight ahead position. In addition instruments have a more characteristic sound with no toe-in which is a big deal.

Okay, now having said that, it's time to stop measuring and comparing but just listen to music and enjoy. After all it's a holiday . My friend from the LA Philharmonic spoke to me like a Dutch uncle last night about this. As I was telling him about the system etc. he asked me if I was listening to sound or music. Wow, that hit me in the side of the head like a ton of bricks!  It's time to fish, not cut bait. Happy New Year everyone!

Al

[Desertpilot]

... it's time to stop measuring and comparing but just listen to music and enjoy. ...

Al

Isn't that the truth?  Spatial X3s have become an addiction.  The emotional connection I feel to music now is much stronger.  Composers set out to tell stories and paint pictures with music.  The X3s let me close my eyes and hear what the composer was trying to say.  All the subtleties are there now.  I only wish I could put into words what I am hearing and feeling.  I want to describe how my system is reproducing music in a way that conveys what the composer and conductor intended.  I will work at it until I can adequately describe the beauty and power I am hearing.

Marcus

[ric]

For Abomwell, I would say that is why I am still using my DIY Hallographs. There are times when you want the recording to fill the room more and be less about pinpoint imaging, which sometimes can detract from the music (vs. sound). I have the hallographs on lazy susans so I can pivot them in or out or straight in a few seconds--many times I find the recording sounds "right" when I have done this. No need to guess with speaker positioning in or out. If you PM me, I can send you some info on making a pair that costs about $20-30. Enjoy!

[abomwell]

For Abomwell, I would say that is why I am still using my DIY Hallographs. There are times when you want the recording to fill the room more and be less about pinpoint imaging, which sometimes can detract from the music (vs. sound). I have the hallographs on lazy susans so I can pivot them in or out or straight in a few seconds--many times I find the recording sounds "right" when I have done this. No need to guess with speaker positioning in or out. If you PM me, I can send you some info on making a pair that costs about $20-30. Enjoy!

I agree with what you are saying about how pinpoint imaging can be a musical distraction. But good imaging is important for some recordings like piano, for example. Without it fast passages can sound blurred. Thanks for the offer but I have an easy way of changing toe-in simply by pivoting the speakers on the inside front spikes. Using tape on the floor I can quickly locate three positions: straight ahead, 15 degree toe-in and pointed at my shoulders. I also created corresponding room correction presets in my processor for each setting. It was very easy to do. It's quite revealing how different the frequency response is with those three toe-in positions!

[Mr. Big]

Isn't that the truth?  Spatial X3s have become an addiction.  The emotional connection I feel to music now is much stronger.  Composers set out to tell stories and paint pictures with music.  The X3s let me close my eyes and hear what the composer was trying to say.  All the subtleties are there now.  I only wish I could put into words what I am hearing and feeling.  I want to describe how my system is reproducing music in a way that conveys what the composer and conductor intended.  I will work at it until I can adequately describe the beauty and power I am hearing.

Marcus

Very correct. Sometimes we miss the forest looking for one tree. You can lose the enjoyment of listening to music for perfection that does not exist. You can EQ/DSP yourself to no end, you can tweak to no end, and like one guy told me years ago all you have done is trade in one set of colorations for another and something is always lost that was there in the 1st place. You want flat then go to a recording studio when flat is the norm, and it is not musically enjoyable, it is lifeless and that is done for the mixing purposes where they bring out the bass, or vocals, etc. when completed it no way sounds like when they laid down the various tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBFtH3e9A3I

I have older friends with the same systems almost for many, many years and when I visit with them and sit down for an evening of music there are systems that sound musical and enjoyable which always give me pause to remember what I just learned again. They all had one thing in common a nice listen to room, some own tubes some solid-state, many box speakers a few panels, and Quad electrostatics 57's & 63's. Then I get the wonderful chance to reflect on my Sapphires M3's, and what they do so well and that is bring the feel of the live performance to your room.   

[Tyson]

For me there tends to be a flurry of activity around optimization and experimentation when I get a new set of speakers, and then that gradually dies down and then the system will be stable for a long time. 

[Desertpilot]

We all have different viewpoints on sound reproduction in our systems.  I do hope that those who have tried the "no toe-in" positioning have found it a worthwhile exercise.  Today, I listened to Berlioz: 'Grande Messe des morts', Requiem, Op. 5, (Surround, 5.0).  Conducted by Antonio Pappano, Concertgebouworkest Orchestra, DXD 24/352.8.  While I have listened to this album several times, today was different.  Soundstage was wide and deep but it now has density.  The instruments covered every square inch of space.  Toss in the choirs, completely filling the back of the stage, and I was presented with an immersive and engaging experience.  This is the best I have heard from my X3s.  I have not made any other changes in my system.  Just positioning the speakers straight ahead a few weeks ago.

Left and right speakers are 9 feet apart and 11 feet to the MLP.  Five feet from my front wall.

I want to add a thought on AMT driver height.  It is true, my seated ear height is 38 inches and the bottom of the waveguide (measured at the speaker) is 41 inches.  But, because I sit 11 feet back, the bottom of the waveguide appears, visually, even in height with my ears.  Maybe it's an illusion.  But, maybe distance has something to do with my satisfaction with the AMT drivers.

Marcus

[Tyson]

Yes, that type of immersive sound stage is what IME separates the really elite setups. 

Also, I find that the further I sit from the speakers, the less tweeter/ear alignment matters.  Also, the more seamlessly integrated the mid and tweeter is, the more wiggle room you have when listening off-axis, both vertically and horizontally.

[doggie]

We all have different viewpoints on sound reproduction in our systems.  I do hope that those who have tried the "no toe-in" positioning have found it a worthwhile exercise... 

....This is the best I have heard from my X3s.  I have not made any other changes in my system.  Just positioning the speakers straight ahead a few weeks ago.

Based upon your initial post regarding decreasing or eliminating toe-in I changed by X5's to only slight toe in and increased to distance between them. This has provided me with a much better soundstage and all around experience.

Although we all may look for a different sound from our systems I think that much of our efforts are driven by the wide variety of different equipment we each have, and more importantly, the vast differences in listening environment.

When we offer our opinions here we are often comparing apples to oranges. There is not one size that fits all. I also think that those blessed with a large room are way ahead with these speakers and that well thought out acoustic treatments are very useful, especially in smaller rooms where the sidewalls are closer to the speakers.

I am grateful for this forum because it increases the likelihood that I can find information that seems to come from a situation similar to my own, as was the case regarding toe-in.

Thanks!

[Desertpilot]

...
When we offer our opinions here we are often comparing apples to oranges.

Absolutely true.  Everyone's room and equipment is different.

...
I am grateful for this forum because it increases the likelihood that I can find information that seems to come from a situation similar to my own, as was the case regarding toe-in.

Thanks!

Plenty of folks here on AC who have far more expertise than me.  But, I share my experiences and value everyone's feedback.

Doggie, I remember how anxious you were waiting for delivery of your X5s.  I'm glad you are continuing to interact with all of us after delivery!

Marcus

[glenmschneider@gmail.com]

My experience with toe-in has been mixed. Straight positioning seems to really open up the soundstage and works well for me on the instrumental tracks. But my problem comes in with vocals. I seem to lose the pinpoint focus and clarity of the singer, at least from my seating position. Maybe its just that I am too close to the speakers. In order to make the speakers 'disappear' I need to pull them 5 feet out into the room, which by room configuration limitations puts my listening distance 7 feet back from them. The speakers are 8 spaced feet apart center to center.  Toe-in at about a 30 degree angle fixes the focus but narrows the soundstage. 

[Desertpilot]

My experience with toe-in has been mixed. ...puts my listening distance 7 feet back from them. The speakers are 8 spaced feet apart center to center.

I have had no issues with 2 channel music and center image with speakers facing forward.  But, I am sitting 11 feet back and 9 feet center to center between left/right speakers.  So maybe that's why.  There is a poster on AC who uses a "lazy susan" type device to change toe in depending on source material.  In my opinion, your spacing between speakers should be equal or less distance than the distance to your MLP.

Marcus

[glenmschneider@gmail.com]

Thank you. I would agree with your positioning recommendation. I fully expected to be able to leave the speakers three feet from the front wall, which would put my MLP in that range. And they sound good at three feet. No real difference to be between 2.5 and 4 feet, but it's just so much better at 5 feet. And it's not practical or really feasible to move my sofa back in the space. Occasionally, when no one is looking, I will temporarily put an IKEA arm chair right behind the sofa to listen:) I will check out the 'Lazy Susan' model.
 

[abomwell]

I visited a Spatial owner here in Tucson yesterday who listens to his X5"s in the nearfield. His speakers are out about 3' from the front wall and angled about 45 degrees from the MLP which is only about 5'-6' from the speakers. The speakers were toed in slightly. There was still a defined center image without a hole in the middle. And the drivers within each speaker seemed to integrate well. There were plenty of diffusion items on shelving directly behind the speakers. The perceived sound was spacious and  articulate. I was quite surprised to hear the X5's working so well with that configuration.