AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: ric on 1 Jan 2019, 03:19 pm
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Greetings and Happy New Year. As a former Dunlavy owner I found that removing the grill cloth improved the sound even though supposedly they were designed to stay on. Recently I got the hair brained idea of removing the cloth that covers the M3 Turbo S', so I laid the speakers face down on a few pillows and unscrewed the screws holding in the speakers. Took a few minutes, very easy, then I lifted the speaker up with one hand so that it hovered over the cabinet and removed the cloth.
While removing the screws I noticed that they look like standard 1" sheet rock screws. Hummm. Then I got the hair brained idea of replacing them with brass screws, so I went to Lowes and bought a 50 pack of #10 x 1 IN Hillman solid brass phillips screws for about $6.50. Before I replaced the speaker screws I also had lying around part of a sheet of "db Neutalizer" which from Herbie's website says "Ideal for component chassis damping and loudspeaker applications". These I had already cut into half inch by half inch squares from another project, so I used them as washers and drilled a small hole in the center of the damping sheet squares and threaded 32 screws into 32 half inch squares. I then replaced on screw at a time, setting the torque on my drill to sixteen, as that seemed to be fairly tight. The brass screws are slightly larger than the rock screws so they were a bit harder to drive in which may have been a good thing.
OK, on to the listening test. I had used a mediocre recording of Beethoven's quartet #132 as both violin and cello make it easier to discern fullness in those areas and indeed there was an improvement. BUT, as I moved on to other recordings I kind of had a WTF moment and I was trying to figure out what was different in a very pleasing, very involving way. Now this was yesterday, so I reserve the right to renege on the jaw dropping improvement, but to my ears the soundstage opened up, the bass is fuller, the highs are more crisp and defined but also more relaxed. The PRAT factor (pace, rhythm, forgot what the A is :icon_lol:, timing) got huge.
Two days ago I was playing spinning wheel (blood sweat and tears) on vinyl and with the cloths off,(no screw tweak yet) I noticed a small but noticeable improvement in clarity and cymbals, etc. But with the new screws in I really was blown away with what I was hearing, as the jump factor and musical involvement improved dramatically.
There is another possible reason for what I was hearing, as I have an EL34 tube amp and the Sophia Electric EL34 tubes (highly recommended if you want to spend the bucks) take up to four hours to sound their best. So I would attribute maybe 20% of what I was hearing to an improvement in sound from tube warm up, and the other 80% you can attribute to placebo factor if you think I'm full of s**t. Hopefully, what I heard yesterday will continue and I urge any others that can handle a screwdriver to try their luck.
It would be interesting to try this tweak with some FoQ product, but for now YMMV, but I'd be interested in that Xmas reply "do you hear what I hear". Thanks for listening.
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I doubt that Spatial would use "sheetrock screws" to fasten driver. What would compel them? I've read of the replace steel with brass screw tweak and can't imagine why it would make any difference in the way a speaker sounds.
I'd be curious to hear your theory.
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"A confounding variable, also known as a third variable or a mediator variable, influences both the independent variable and dependent variable. Being unaware of or failing to control for confounding variables may cause the researcher to analyze the results incorrectly. The results may show a false correlation between the dependent and independent variables, leading to an incorrect rejection of the null hypothesis."
Short version: Too many changes at once.
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If you can't imagine spatial would use sheetrock screws, pull one out and look at it. Cheap and easy to drive, does the job.
As far as any theory as to why it works, I really don't have enough knowledge, to comment. For me the proof is in the pudding, either it sounds better or it doesn't.
Really, all I'm asking is that someone try it, since it's very simple to do, and confirm or deny my impressions with their own. If today or tomorrow I listen and hear no improvement so be it, but these are simple tweaks that can be done by anyone. As judge Judy says "put on your listening ears" and judge for yourself.
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Yes - sheetrock screws are easy to drive. When I framed the basement in my old house, I used longer sheetrock screws to hold together the framing. Held together solidly and easy to re-do things (hand framed the bar and didn't like the way it was inside and re-did it very easily).
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I don't often split hairs here, but I'm feeling my oats today. I don't own Spatial speakers, so I won't be checking the fasteners out, but you could shoot a photo and post, no?
Sheet Rock(a brand name) or any drywall screws are a specific thread type, hardness and head type. Designed for the task of fastening drywall to framing they come in two flavors, for metal framing and wood. My doubt stems from knowledge of fasteners and their application and mis-application, hence the skepicism.
Sorry Phil, that people use them indiscrimately is not proof of their value for unintended purposes. Far too hard and brittle to be of any real value in a structural situation. I don't doubt that screws are handy in framing, but for goodness sakes use something that's more suited to the application. What are commonly refered to as decking screws would be a better bet.
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But aren't decking screws harder than sheet rock screws? It's easier to bend a sheet rock screw.
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No, they're not. Assuming we're talking about something that is actually a drywall screw.
Unfortunately manufacturers can and do call their products whatever they want, particularly in stores aimed at the DIY market (big boxes). There is no statute to prevent it, it's about marketing. Unless one were to somehow prove a manufacturers claim or labeling is criminally wrong, it will and has continued.
In theory, a drywall screw is actually a hardened screw. It's done to resist cam-out when being power driven. It's not being asked to "give" under load. It also has a bugle type head that pulls drywall paper down rather than grind a countersink for itself. If using them in a structural application the best example of their nature is snapping heads off, which I thing most would agree is a PIA.
Decking screws are softer and more malleable, for the same reason a nail is. Shear strength, the ability to be withdrawn and reinserted and pull parts together are all enhanced. There's lots to the science, and lots of misguided and mislabeled bullshit on the shelf, but that's a topic for another time and place.
Sorry to hijack your thread, Ric. I just really dislike the proliferation of bogus information and hearsay.
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I don’t see anything wrong with drywall screws. They’re pretty damn tough. But more importantly perhaps is the limit on available black screws. Aesthetics can be very important for a manufacturer.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188557)
The longer screw is a fine thread sheet rock screw that I had on hand, the shorter course thread is a little thicker than a standard rock screw (but not by much) and was pulled from the speaker. The brass screw has a half inch "gasket".
But really, for me the question is about a simple tweak or tweaks working and being audible. Whether it is a rock screw, deck screw or other, is irrelevant in this context unless someone is comparing the sound of one to another in this application. Of course you are free to match the screw on Google images or call Clayton in order to prove whatever point you are trying to make. :nono:
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Why would it be the screw, if we have a second variable of a damper material? We don’t know.
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I had met Rick Shultz before he started Virtual Dynamics. He was in contact with the fellow who created Systrum Racks and Rick was talking all the virtues of using brass for energy transfer and dissipation. So I don't doubt at all about the results you are getting. I should do the same to the GR Research Super Vs.
Clayton Shaw should take notice of this thread as it might be worth experimenting with.
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Yes, thank you Ronnie. I did look at the Ric Shultz video when I was doing research on brass screw vs. others. And yes, there are two variables, the other being the damping material. Right now I'm not about to pull the screws out and pull the damping/washers, but my guess is that they both contribute. Down the road, I would be curious to try the screws with FoQ product, but for now hearing is believing.
As I was thinking about it and if you look at Magico and the other big boys, they incorporate sophisticated (read expensive) ways to minimize unwanted vibration while maximizing wanted vibration--that's what this game is all about, and tweaks are guesswork.
Herbies Audio recommends using a type of auto gasket sealer (RTV) when attaching their vibration control sheets, and I have used it on my flamenco guitars isolating the body contact points (knee, right arm, upper chest) which, to my ears does the same thing to the sound emanating from a wooden instrument as in audio--bass is tightened, more clarity, better projection.
It would be interesting to attach the speaker itself using no screws and something like the gasket sealer, but dangerous for a manufacturer if the adhesive loosens up over time. Perhaps down the road....
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This is a very old tweak. Perhaps Michael Green or Mike Vans Evers was the first to report using brass screws on speakers and electronic enclosures?
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Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade is also big on brass screws.
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I had met Rick Shultz before he started Virtual Dynamics. He was in contact with the fellow who created Systrum Racks and Rick was talking all the virtues of using brass for energy transfer and dissipation. So I don't doubt at all about the results you are getting. I should do the same to the GR Research Super Vs.
Clayton Shaw should take notice of this thread as it might be worth experimenting with.
Found this...
https://youtu.be/QPvV9UOvqXM
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Perhaps it’s as simple as you replace something while wondering if you will notice a difference. Low and behold, a difference is noticed.
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OK, just in case anyone out there, :roll: hello, echo...might try this, I had my second listening session yesterday and I was nervous casting doubt upon my ears. But, my ears are telling me the same thing, and this is a huge upgrade, where I am still kind of scratching my head. For those of you who suggest placebo effect, or too many variables, all I can say is try it yourself. Pull out your screwdriver it's not that hard to do. Report what you hear back. Worse case scenario, put the old screws back in, along with the grill cloth.
While on the subject, I want to add the Schroeder effect, (about doubling up your rca connectors from cd player to amp via a splitter) is also a huge tweak, and can be done cheaply. Highly recommended.
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I have done this for years. Here is one example
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dd7z9qven0b8jmf/004.JPG?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/dd7z9qven0b8jmf/004.JPG?dl=0)
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Hi Ric
I haven't got the M3's but am keen to try this on my speakers. Any chance of taking some more closeup photos of the actual screws attached to the speakers so I can get a better idea of what it looks like?
Thanks
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I have the M3 Turbo S... Therefore, in the true spirit of our hobby- never leaving well enough alone, I will also be trying brass screws and listen for what changes may occur.
I won’t be removing the grille cloth, making the conversion that much easier. I’m also going to try and find some rectangular brass washers of some sort, to more evenly spread out the screw torque across the driver basket rim. Something like these:
https://www.nationalengfasteners.com/products/category/193-rectangular-washers
It seems a lot of expensive speakers make heroic efforts to really fasten the driver to the baffle, so maybe there is something to it.
In closing, I will say this: my wanting to try this should in no way be construed as disappointment in the M3. Quite the contrary, it sounds phenomenal not only for the money, but also in absolute terms. All these tweaks cost money and time in manufacturing and development; if Clayton were to spend more time tweaking, I suspect we’d no longer be looking at a $3,000.00 out performer. I love the sound of these things.
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Hi Tim, I can send a photo, but I did not do it for looks so I can tell you that it is not pretty. My M3's are flat black and so it clashes with the brass and white gasket (Herbies product). If I were doing it for looks (which matters less on the back of the frame) probably best to pre paint the screws and isolation gasket.
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And James, I would recommend removing the grill cloth as I am noticing cymbal strikes and dynamics that I had not before. In fact I was thinking that it would be great if Spatial had an option so that they could be removable, as doing so does make a difference.
If you do remove the cloth, it is not attached to the speaker and I suppose it may be possible to make or find a (plastic?) circle and glue it to that and attach with simple velcro mini pieces, or something like that.
Again, the dynamics and soundstaging to my ears are about 30-40% improved. I too love the sound of these speakers and am shocked how much improvement I am hearing. Of course YMMV.
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As per request here are a few photos:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188690)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188691)
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I wonder if merely tightening all the screws, which can and will loosen with time due to wood shrinkage and shipping vibrations could be most of the difference you are hearing...I always check and tighten all screws holding drivers on new speakers after a month...
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I wonder if merely tightening all the screws, which can and will loosen with time due to wood shrinkage and shipping vibrations could be most of the difference you are hearing...I always check and tighten all screws holding drivers on new speakers after a month...
Steven nice seeing you post. Good tip however not all drivers desire a vise grip. Some are to tightened to a certain resonance point. Brass also has a different resonance factor than steel. Over time will not magnetize either. Cost more as well. Maybe it has to be measured. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:
charles
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C'mon, somebody out there please try this to confirm or deny my claims of a 30-40% increase in Soundstage and dynamics. Even my diy hallographs are set differently to accommodate the difference in Soundstage. Good luck!
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I will deny your 30-40% number. That is a huge increase. I would think more like 5-10% would be more in line. That's if we are still talking about the brass screw tweek.
Now if you truly want a 30-40% increase in imaging get your speakers out at least 6' off the wall. Just some friendly audio phoolary advice. Cheers
Rocket Ronny
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188692)
Ric, my M3’s are right in the middle of the living room, so removing the grilles is just not domestically feasible.
However, I will be doing the brass screw thing as soon as I get the supplies. As an aside, due to the open baffle design, you can see my dog thoroughly enjoying the approximately -6db null between the speakers. (Measured very unscientifically with a RadioShack SPL meter.
Maybe a moderator can turn my picture right-side up...
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Still trying to think of a way to have the grills removable. That way aesthetically pleasing when not in use. Hope your dog doesn't exercise by doing leg lifts!
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Hi Guys,
Let me try to sort this out and comment from the manufacturer's perspective:
It is certainly possible that Ric heard something happen after making a change of any kind. But, the tweeks he is proposing are not recommended and interfere with the manufacturing design of the product. The M3 carries a 20 year warranty against defects and workmanship issues, but these tweeks void the warranty.
Lets take the two tweeks separately:
1) Brass screws - The important thing to consider is the baffle material being used - a high grade MDF in the case of the M3. As a material for speakers, MDF is the only good, reasonably priced, machinable material available, thus everyone uses it in the under $10K price category and some very expensive speaker (over $100K) such as the Sonus Faber Aida use MDF. The material, however, does not hold screw fasteners very well, so very coarse thread screws must be used. We do use drywall screws for this reason. Cost has nothing to do with it. Brass screws are not available in coarse thread to my knowledge, so the options are virtually none. There is a good screw known as a Tek screw, but they are not produced in the 1 inch length required in this application and don't appear to have any real benefit over drywall screws. The problem with replacing a screw to a finer thread type is that it can destroy the original thread pattern. The CNC router drills a precise diameter pilot hole in the MDF, so that when the drywall screw is driven in, it forms the thread pattern. If you trash the pattern, you will likely end up with a stripped hole situation. Therefore, it is bad advice to suggest M3 owners make this change and potentially ruin their baffles. As to whether brass screws sound better, I would leave that to the tweekers. But to suggest 30-40% improvement is ridiculous and should be challenged. The compliant washer Ric added would appear to be redundant since the woofer mounting face already has a stiff foam gasket that damps vibration. The entire woofer frame is steel, so what would a steel screw change even if it became magnetized? None of this makes any sense to me and indicates a lack of basic knowledge about mechanics.
2) Grille cloth removal - Ric's hearing must be world class, since the cloth is almost perfectly transparent acoustically . The cloth only attenuates the compression driver's output by 0.60dB as shown below. More importantly, the attenuation is exactly the same across the range, so the result would be that the range from 1kHz to 20kHz is now 0.6dB louder. 30-40% improvement in sound?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188737)
I have always encouraged experimentation because it is a great way to learn and fun to do. But, we need keep in mind the ramifications that can result from telling others to alter their products when based on opinion only. I would suggest asking me about any ideas for improving our products before tearing into them - we are always looking for ways to improve. I have heard of most of these tweeks before, so I may be able to save you a lot of headaches.
Best wishes for 2019,
Clayton Shaw
www.spatialaudio.us
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Thank you Clayton for responding. Let me note also that I stand by what I am hearing. Yes, 30-40% is high, but I would temper that affect with another possibility which is room loading. It is possible that a small increase sounds huge IF for whatever reason, in my smallish room, the room sounds full and saturated, due to a tweak, to the point that my Hallowgraphs no longer function in the same way they did before the tweak, and for that explanation I am at a loss.
As I said, I had the grill cloths removed for one day before trying the screw tweak, and curiosity got the better of me, and I should have waited, although myself and others do hear differences (i.e. Dunlavys) when grill cloths are removed. I think I said there was a slight improvement without the grill cloths, (not 30-40%) and we also know that measurements as well are not always an accurate way of describing what one hears.
This is why I was suggesting that others try these tweaks, because if someone else hears ANY difference, something is going on. But this something needs to be verified, in this case by consensus.
For the record, the brass screws I used are slightly larger than the sheetrock screws so they do work, but changing back to the sheetrock screws could be a problem as those holes are slightly larger now, and would need a larger diameter screw IF the MDF is overused.
As far as the washer material, it is a Herbie's product, made for this type of application and I am assuming that it is different acoustically than the foam you are using. Now whether this has any influence on what I am hearing I have no clue without removing them and using my ears.
Tweaks are supposed to be a fun and interesting and sometimes rewarding way of hearing changes. Now, if these tweaks void a warranty or poise a danger to the integrity of the material then of course they shouldn't be done. Now unfortunately, I have no consensus in either direction, but based on what I am hearing, I am suggesting that you, Clayton, TRY some brass screws. After all, if this improves your product that's a good thing.
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Yes, tweaks are fun, but business is business and you have voided the remainder of the warranty on your speakers. I suggest you send Clayton the serial numbers so he can record that the warranty is no longer good, in case someone else has a problem with this pair 15 years from now. I am not trying to be snarky - just want to protect future owners. I have done lots of similar stuff, but only on units with no warranty.
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I wonder if merely tightening all the screws, which can and will loosen with time due to wood shrinkage and shipping vibrations could be most of the difference you are hearing...I always check and tighten all screws holding drivers on new speakers after a month...
Clayton, do you recommend doing as Steven suggests above about checking/tightening the screws after a few weeks?
Thanks
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Yes, just don't over-tighten them since its MDF.
Clayton
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glynnw, I opened the cover on my amp once, I confess.
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James Edward - How do you sleep at night knowing what you did?
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In response to Glynn and voiding the warranty. I would suggest that ANY problem with speaker attachment would void that warranty, but to be fair, if the tweeter blows and it is not the fault of poor attachment than I would hope Clayton would honor that. But I'm happy to pay for parts, as they do wear out over time.
Many apologies for opening a can of worms. Yes, I should have checked with Spatial first about the screw attachment and I DO realize how fragile MDF can be in terms of screw attachment. It would be a major PITA to repair a crack or separation that would not allow a screw or screws to hold.
It may be best to delete this whole topic, as I would not want someone who has read part of it only, run the risk of doing what I did, unsuccessfully, so Clayton, perhaps deleting this whole mess? thanks!