[shep]

Nice work all aa I did one blind test with some friends years ago (far fewer pieces) I hated it! I kept wanting to peek...funny how important visual clues are or seem to be. I am the proud step-papa of the Shep1, a M. Mardis iteration of the Trends, and a soon to be S-P of the Little Dot. Wish you had mine in that shoot out...anyway it was a treat to read all the fun/work you put in. Now how about making this an annual event?

[brj]

Now how about making this an annual event?

This was already the second annual switch mode ("digital") amplifier comparison.  Last year Danny organized it and held it at his place.

That said, I suspect that asking for a yearly repeat of the event is more likely to bear fruit 6 months from now... after the memory of all the work involved has faded a bit from the minds of the hosts and organizers!

[Danny Richie]

Would it not be logical to assume that, for the sake of discussion, on a different day with a different source with different ICs with different speakers, the results would be different?

In one case the seating position made a difference. 

For the first round of the amp shoot out, I was sitting front and center. That's the back of my mug in the center seat.



I found most of the amps to be such that if played just a little bit on the loud side, they can be fatiguing. They have a hot sharpness that just doesn't strike well with me. I found this when playing some of these amps in my own system and got a little taste of it in the shoot out too.

In the first round the Cary went up against the Dodd. These were both very good amps.

I really liked the Cary amp at lower levels. The vocal range was really good and even gave me some goose bumps. However I found the peaks to be a little hot. A dynamic peak made me want it turned down and we weren't listening real loud to begin with. I could like it best with some music, low levels, and non-dynamic music. Then I liked it least with other types of music.

I liked the Dodd also. It was really good across the board, and was less aggressive. I had no issues with the top end. It was smoother and did not draw attention to itself. I think these notes were mine. "the overall sound is clean; great clarity; musical and emotional"

I was the only one that preferred the Dodd over the Cary in the first round. My reasons were: Slightly smoother vocals and good resolution without harshness.

Now for the second round and all other rounds, I switched places with Chris Henderson. I was then sitting in the second row and to the right.

In the final round the Dodd and the Cary met again.

This time I was further away and the volume was lower in level due to the greater distance. Peaks that were a bit overbearing from the front row were less of an issue now and I was more drawn to the detail and dynamics.

Chris Henderson had preferred the Cary in the first round, but now sitting front and center (in my old seat), this time, he preferred the Dodd Audio amp.

I can easily see how in a different room or with different speakers the choices can easily vary. We were in a very well treated room, using an $11,000 or $13,000 tube pre-amp. The speakers are very smooth with no top end brightness. So the room and gear favored the amps that were more to the bright, analytical, sharp, or crisp side flavor.

[Daygloworange]

That was another thing I noticed as well during our 2 day amp comparo. Where you are sitting is a big deal as well. If you are up close, or further back. If you are off to the side, you might still hear both speakers, but, it's still quite a difference from being in the sweetspot.

While everyone clearly heard differences in all the amps at our event, I don't think that you could use it as a true barometer in how an amp truly sounds. My impressions of certain amps were different when I had some of them after the event and could listen to them in my system set up back home.

But having all the amps together and listening to them in a comparo is a total blast. It really is. 

Cheers

[Danny Richie]

Another thing that you guys can look forward to is that many of these amps are now getting reviewed by Stereomojo reviewers. So you will get further feedback on these things from guys that spend time with them in their own systems.

[Catbo]

Normally I might agree with you about this because I find this more true than not but......
I have the Onkyo A-9555 and I have to say that it does not have this problem in treble (HF) with how Onkyo has tuned this Amp, it has no ear fatigue at all even after many hours of listening.  I cannot say this
for other Digital Amps I own.  It's a very sweet and smooth sounding amp without the ear fatigue, at any volume played.  I've even tried this Onkyo A-9555 on Klipsch speakers and still very smooth and no ear fatigue or no harsh sound at all.  Onkyo has done a really good job in this area.  The Onkyo A-9555 is a very good Integrated amp and it just keeps sounding better and better the more I listen to it.

>FJK said:

> This has always been the common downfall of digital. Even when one of the major magazines did a
>shoot out with four very high end digital amps, the treble was the biggest complaint to all.  None
>of them were T based.

[gevorg]

Normally I might agree with you about this because I find this more true than not but......
I have the Onkyo A-9555 and I have to say that it does not have this problem in treble (HF) with how Onkyo has tuned this Amp, it has no ear fatigue at all even after many hours of listening.  I cannot say this
for other Digital Amps I own.  It's a very sweet and smooth sounding amp without the ear fatigue, at any volume played.  I've even tried this Onkyo A-9555 on Klipsch speakers and still very smooth and no ear fatigue or no harsh sound at all.  Onkyo has done a really good job in this area.  The Onkyo A-9555 is a very good Integrated amp and it just keeps sounding better and better the more I listen to it.

>FJK said:

> This has always been the common downfall of digital. Even when one of the major magazines did a
>shoot out with four very high end digital amps, the treble was the biggest complaint to all.  None
>of them were T based.

Catbo, can you give the specs of your audio system.

[zigo]

Very interesting comparison, thankyou very much.

But I have a question: I did not found the speakers sensitivity, can you show please what is the db sensitivity of the speakers you used?

thankyou very much

rob

[Danny Richie]

The sensitivity of the speakers is conservatively rated at 91db with a 1 watt/1 meter signal. Keep in mind though that I line source looses 3db per doubling of distance and not 6db per doubling of distance like a point source speaker will. So to get the same output levels at the listening distance that we used (with the same input signal), a speaker with a sensitivity rating in the 97db range would be needed.

[rythmik]

We were in a very well treated room, using an $11,000 or $13,000 tube pre-amp. The speakers are very smooth with no top end brightness. So the room and gear favored the amps that were more to the bright, analytical, sharp, or crisp side flavor.

Sorry I join the discussion late.  This is Brian Ding from Rythmik Audio. I sat on the first row leftmost seat at all  time in the comparo and I don't think my perception of the sound stage (in terms of width, depth, and height) is much affected by where I sat because this is a comparison, not a solo audition.  Another thing that I felt was also fortunate is after it was over is the winner is not the brightest sound among all the participating  amps, and not the dullest either (or in statistical term, I didn't pick the outlier).  I personally like the sound of Cary in every run because it is coherent, with good dynamics, resolution, and imaging. It is pretty well balanced. 

I have an advanced degree in Electrical Engineering, at the same time my thesis is related to using probabilistic/statistical methods in solving engineering problems.  For my other job, we deal with mixed signal design (digital mixed with analog), in which eye charts and clock jitter is a significant part of the performance metrics. With all these things put together I have my own view of why the sound equipment would sound differently.  In my view, the key seems to be in the coherence. Unfortunately, in the digital world we have all sorts of equipments to measure the eye charts and clock jitters and we don't have anything similar to measure the analog signals (other than the human ears).

From the statistcal point of view, the results are also pretty consistent.  I didn't change  seat and I picked Cary every round.
 

[Milehighguy]

 the winner is not the brightest sound among all the participating  amps, and not the dullest either (or in statistical term, I didn't pick the outlier).  I personally like the sound of Cary in every run because it is

The point I think Danny is making is that in a different room, with other equiptment, the "medium" amps would sound brighter, the bright amps even more so, and the dull amps would sound "medium". It's no surprize that "medium' sounding amps will be favored, but how they sound is a product of the room and associated equiptment.

I didn't change  seat and I picked Cary every round.

What does this say? It might say that your seating position favors the sound of that amp. If you had moved around to different seats and still picked the same amp, then you would have had more validity in your choice.

[JeffB]

I notice that the Cary has 2 pairs of speaker outputs for bi-wiring.
Does this mean there are 4 amplifier channels?

[Turnandcough]

As you see in my signature, I own the trends ta-10 at the moment... It's the best amp i've had .    My first amp was a cambridge audio 640A and the next one was a  mid-fi chinese SS integrated...

I own a 640a (V2) and, as an upgrade, am contemplating (amongst other things) a move towards digital. With only one input the Trends is out of the question but the Onkyo A-9555,  also placed well, and fits my budget. Can you comment on this?
Thanks

[Catbo]

The Onkyo A-9555 is an excellent clean, clear, and well balanced powerful amp.  It takes a good amount of time to break-in.  My A-9555 just keeps sounding better and better the more time I put on it.  We listened to it for about 3 hours last night and all six of us was just floored of how good it sounds.  We tried it with some Klipschorn, Klipsch RF-7, Klipsch KLF-20, and B&W N802 and it sounded great on all of them!  We had to pick up our jaws off the floor by time we stopped listening to it, the A-9555 just seemed like more of everything than two months ago when we listened to the same equipment/music.

You never run out of any volume on the Onkyo A-9555 either.  So I highly recommend you give it a try if you are thinking about it, or have a listen to one if you can.  The A-9555 has been getting some great reviews as well as it's bigger brother the A-9755.  Too bad Onkyo doesn't import the A-9755 to the US market, only to the Europian, Asia, and South America.  I also love the GOLD color for the A-9555 and A-9755 but again Onkyo doesn't offer the GOLD color for US market, only silver and black.

[rythmik]

I didn't change  seat and I picked Cary every round.

What does this say? It might say that your seating position favors the sound of that amp. If you had moved around to different seats and still picked the same amp, then you would have had more validity in your choice.

I agree with your argument.  What I was saying is Art's system has a pretty wide sweet spot, I can still hear sound stage, dynamics, and resolution  even when I sat next to the middle spot (you see I don't mention if it is bright or dull which is more seat dependent).  Sure if I sit in the middle spot,  it will carry a more convincing argument.  But the consistency in the audition test is far more important (from a statistical view of the results, what actually counts as statistical certainty).  If you sit in one of those sessions (with that many amps, and with that many different sound) and Art re-assigned letter to each amp in every round, you cannot correlate what you hear with amp A in the first round with what you hear with another amp "A" in the second round (because they are different amps),  You have to be really, really sure what sound characteristics are important to you to be consistent in all 3 rounds.  Otherwise, the amp you pick will be completely random. In the middle of the audition, Art joked that he had given us the same amp to compare to itself and some picked the first amp, some picked the second amp, and we were all writing down why we like one amp over another.   Sure, that was just a joke. But it can happen.