what cables to use?

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nicolasb

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what cables to use?
« Reply #20 on: 26 May 2006, 09:03 am »
A good question to ask yourself is what type of cable the mixing engineer used when mixing the recording. Let us suppose (rather unrealistically) that there is actually a huge difference between the sound of copper cables and the sound of silver cables: which do you think the sound engineer was using? Guarantee you, he'll have been using copper. So, if there is a difference and you use silver cables, the recording will sound very different from the way the mixing engineer intended it to sound: it will therefore be less accurate rather than more.

Actually, of course, there isn't much difference between copper and silver. Silver is a better conductor than copper, but using a thicker copper cable lowers the resistance just as effectively as switching from copper to silver.

(Having said that, you might want to avoid silver-plated cables - that strikes me as being very dodgy).

Bob Reynolds

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what cables to use?
« Reply #21 on: 26 May 2006, 07:41 pm »
Quote from: Sasha
I completely disagree that cables do not make a difference.
They make as significant difference as changing a major component in the system, speakers or amplification.
If your system is transparent enough, you will easily hear enormous differences cables bring. Whether good or bad, is dependent on the synergy between components, and ultimately on your taste.


I think most of the folks here agree that cables can make a difference in a system's sound. However, I think you'll find very few people (except cable salesmen) that believe they are as important as a major component change.

That being said I guess if you start with a poorly designed/constructed cable then changing to one that uses quality materials and construction techniques the change could be enormous. Otherwise, I'd have to conclude there is something wrong with a system that it is so sensitive to cables.

The other downside to tweaking a system's sound with cables is that when one does change out a component the synergy is likely gone and starting the cable hunt all over again is the only option. Like I said it's an expensive game with unpredictable results.

kyrill

can i trust the ears of trusted people?
« Reply #22 on: 11 Nov 2007, 05:09 pm »
and which people can be trusted is the next important question

I read at least 6-8 different audio on line review magazines

if ALL reviewers, not one excluded say even power cables always make a difference to their ears in their variable set up and too often a BIG difference.
I I read  a certain brand is reviewed positively by all who review them, sometimes to the extent that the reviewer buys that cable to replace his former high grade (power) cable

would it not be very ARROGANT to decide a cable is just a cable

Especially when they rave about relatively very cheap cables like those of Paul Speltz and "Signal Cable" to name a view

I am sure if all cables are wisely chosen and suit that particular system, it is of the level of a component upgrade

vegasdave

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #23 on: 12 Nov 2007, 08:35 am »
If you are hearing noticable differences in cables then one or both of them has something very wrong with their design.Belden and Canare are both world class wire companies.This is what I use in my 70 grand system.Don't be a sucker,stick with the big players who have real engineers designing their cables.You,I or anybody else can be in the esoteric wire business at the drop of a hat.That is sometimes why these wires do sound different because the guy making them has no idea what he is doing and they are actually introducing more distortions.
  Some audio companies have millions invested into their designs.Do you really think they are going to use a power cord that will compromise the end result of all that money and time tied up in  R+D?

I agree 100 percent. I use Belden speaker cable (purchased from Blue Jeans Cable) and it's great!

denjo

Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #24 on: 12 Nov 2007, 08:57 am »
Good thread!

I vacillate between the two poles - esoteric, most times expensive cables on the one hand, and, Beldens or Canare, on the other. When the Beldens are in place, I hear a good, honest presentation of the music, good tonal balance overall, with little emphasis of extreme frequencies. However, with exotic cables I tend to find an overemphasis of highs and/or lows, and often wonder if the materials used in these cables are actually responsible for the sound they produce, acting very much like equalisers of sorts. At first blush these exotic cables seem to appeal, especially when they emphasise something that one's ears are not used to, giving the overall impression that one is hearing more detail or dynamics. But, when I return to the Beldens, that "bloom" which initially appealed is missing so that what I am hearing is a downright, honest presentation of what the music should sound. It takes a while for the ears to accept this no-frills portrayal of the music but when the ears to become accustomed, they sound more pleasing in the long run. If you asked two audiophiles to try the Beldens or Canare, I daresay that both of them will report rather similar things about what they are hearing in their respective systems than differences in the way the Beldens or Canare sound. But, when you swop for exotic cables, the divergence of views is much wider - perhaps one feeling that the highs are too tizzy while the other might like the HF bloom. Likewise, with LF. While I am no engineer or technical specialist, one of the conclusions I reach is that the materials used in the exotic cables (it could be silver plating or whatever) is reacting differently in the two systems, consequently producing a much more discernible difference in the sound than the Belden/Canares.

Best Regards
Dennis

KBK

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #25 on: 22 Nov 2007, 05:08 pm »
The differences in cables, sonically, are definitely heard - and real. The function of the human ear does not relate in a liner fashion to what is used in transmission line modeling and what shows up on a scope in linear measurements. I need to create a 'hotkey' or file that has my standard response which I now use to show the cable naysayers the science behind the ear and how it relates to linear measurements and how these two do not fit each other exactly. This is what leads to the debate about "is it live, or is it Memorex?" Is the whole cable debate bogus, or not?  I'll go and grab my post on such at the DIYAudio forum that shut that particular debate down in it's tracks. It makes perfect sense, when you consider what it says. It validates the cable junkies and shows the detractors where the whole arguement falls down. There are no winners or losers in the equation, just clarification for all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Take a piece of paper.

Draw a triangle on it.

The three points represent the listener with respect to the two speakers.

Make the speakers 10 ft apart, with the listener 10 ft back.

Now.....audiophiles have been shown to be easily able to differentiate between signals..in that 'stereoscopic sound stage' , which is strung between the speakers..where the 'image point' seems to be over, from left to right, by approximately 1 inch, and less. Now, take that 'timing' information, and then apply it to extremely rich signals, in terms of the entire note structure. Harmonics count.

Take that information,and you add it to the fact that the ear hears, for the larger part, via the leading edge of the given transient, and it's timing differentials from harmonic transients, and the level of each.


If you go through the rather simple math..you end up with a minimal requirement to satisfy the better trained audiophiles (and I POWERFULLY stress that is is BELOW the capacity of the human ear!!! ..it is merely as well as audiophiles have managed to train themselves-nothing more)..of..get this:

500Khz sampling rate with a 20 bit word length. This as a MINIMUM. This specification is only taking into account one single aspect of the human human hearing function. One we ALL express, every single day.

As for cables, this means they must be capable of not altering a signal in any way, whatsoever..from actual DC...out to approx. 1mhz, with a +10db to -70db range of loading ..this..with ZERO phase distortion or alteration of the signal..in any way, shape or form. PERIOD. I'm not talking about a clean -3db down at 500khz, but 0db down. NO phase or complex LCR issues, at ANY point in that range. Harmonics and complex note structuring take these minimums up into the low mhz range!!!!!

This is not due to the single ear's function but as a stereoscopic pair, concerning timing issues.

Which is why tube amps and turntables work. Both have extremely low inter-channel phasing issues. Totally analog. Taken to another point of analysis, it shows why digital amps are generally considered...to the more learned ear...to 'suck'.

Digital falls flat on it's face.

But the ear-brain combo can pull 'intelligence' out of a 3.5 bit deep digital signal. This does not mean that it equals hearing function, but the exact opposite. We are incredibly good at figuring out complex and dirty aural issues, but we can also 'relax' into a perfectly represented signal, as well.

This is why we can hear differences in audio equipment and wires.

I've known this simple point since 1992. Ive tired to educate the industry many times. But to no avail.

Yet..the logic and the math sit there in plain sight...like a 9000lb gorilla in the middle of the room...and are ignored.

If you go through the effort of understanding this simple point, the whole entire audiophile argument makes 110% perfect sense.

There is more to it than this simple diagram and such, and one can attack me, or the point that is attempted to relate. Suffice it to say, the basics are there if one attempts to add reason and intellect to the proffered point.


James Tanner

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #26 on: 23 Nov 2007, 02:18 am »
KBK

What  does a pair of the 1 meter cables sell for?

james

nuhi

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #27 on: 23 Nov 2007, 11:10 am »
Until recently I was a placebo junky as well then I did the blind test just because of the recent challenge...no difference was heard what so ever.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/calling-********/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better-305549.php

Also check this out, this guy has a dream-system and even he can't hear any difference even though he was convinced for years.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12255000#post12255000

Phil A

Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #28 on: 23 Nov 2007, 03:41 pm »
Until recently I was a placebo junky as well then I did the blind test just because of the recent challenge...no difference was heard what so ever.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/calling-********/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better-305549.php

Also check this out, this guy has a dream-system and even he can't hear any difference even though he was convinced for years.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12255000#post12255000

Appreciate the links.  Have see the James Randi one before but he has little if any expertise in audio.  Have also done and participated in blind tests before with the opposite results as above and in one case with digital cables and people who did not believe there were differences and 100% of 20+ people involved identified the differences.  Have also been involved in tests as noted above where less than half of the people were able to identify differences.  The discussions on forums seem to get overly silly as there is really no way to verify the conditions they were conducted under other than the actual participants.  Personally having bought expensive stuff at one point, I make most (I don't bother with certain types as they are not worth the time) of my own now (and have had opportunities to compare it vs. other stuff) as I feel I get a much better bang for the buck.  I don't feel that boutique cables are automatically a rip-off but at one point (probably 6-8 yrs. back) I literally bought tons of raw mat'ls and extensive comparisons and at this point I don't feel like it would be a good purchase for me personally.

nuhi

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #29 on: 23 Nov 2007, 05:49 pm »
Phil A, even these discussion are the same as of the religion I have to reply but try not to get offended because I'll be blunt.

It is more doubtful when all the participants guessed correctly in the blind test than in the one where no one did.
Your situation might have had some influence from the person which changed the cables, gave you a hint somehow, doesn't have to be on purpose. Just a guess, same as you instantly thought that their test might be flawed.

I never heard of a passed blind test before except for a few doubtful posts which no one can confirm.
When I did my first blind test before spending on cables I passed it, because I even talked with the friend who helped me during the test, and the test wasn't done enough times. It's enough to see their reaction to reach the conclusion.

For me it takes 5 switches to see that there is no difference, first 2-3 changes I'm convinced that it's night and day difference...but I am mistaken. Can't help it, even now when I know it's all in my head whenever I change the cables I can hear the difference, but that difference fades away after a few hours...so called burn in or lets call it reality :)

James Tanner

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #30 on: 23 Nov 2007, 06:03 pm »
Hi All,

I have tested many speaker cables over the years and my opinion at this point is that speaker cables can sound different.  The differences though I think have to do with the GEOMETRY of the cable as much as anything else. In other words where the positive lead is physically relative to the negative lead will affect the 'electrical constants' (Inductance , Capacitance, Resistance, Impedance etc.) of a given cable.

So as an example if you have a weaved speaker cable the cable will have 'higher capacitance' and 'lower self-inductance' than a cable that has a space separating the positive and negative leads which will have the opposite affect of 'lower capacitance' but 'higher self-inductance'. High self-inductance (as in a separated cable) will tend to roll-off the high frequencies making the cable sound less bright where low self-inductance (weaved cable) will allow the higher frequencies to pass through.

So if your system tended to sound forward and aggressive you may in fact prefer the speaker cable that had the higher self-inductance.

Remember that the cable length has a multiplying affect on these 'electrical constants' so keeping the speaker cables as short as possible is a very good practice. The differences in the measurements are subtle but they are measurable.

james
« Last Edit: 23 Nov 2007, 06:33 pm by James Tanner »

Phil A

Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #31 on: 23 Nov 2007, 08:04 pm »
Phil A, even these discussion are the same as of the religion I have to reply but try not to get offended because I'll be blunt.

It is more doubtful when all the participants guessed correctly in the blind test than in the one where no one did.
Your situation might have had some influence from the person which changed the cables, gave you a hint somehow, doesn't have to be on purpose. Just a guess, same as you instantly thought that their test might be flawed.

I never heard of a passed blind test before except for a few doubtful posts which no one can confirm.
When I did my first blind test before spending on cables I passed it, because I even talked with the friend who helped me during the test, and the test wasn't done enough times. It's enough to see their reaction to reach the conclusion.

For me it takes 5 switches to see that there is no difference, first 2-3 changes I'm convinced that it's night and day difference...but I am mistaken. Can't help it, even now when I know it's all in my head whenever I change the cables I can hear the difference, but that difference fades away after a few hours...so called burn in or lets call it reality :)

As I noted it is silly to debate the issue.  You were not there.  And I've been involved in many (a couple of dozen give or take a few) blind tests including digital and analog cables.  Tests were done using multiple systems at different times and have not gone 100% either way.  So that you are aware of the general circumstances of how the one test was digital cables was conducted, I was not a participant in hooking up the cables nor was the person hooking up the cables in sight when the stuff was changed nor was in the room.  I had already done enough listening to reach my conclusion so I did not participate in the process of guessing cables.  Most of the partipants claimed there could be no differences (even after identifying them via listening) and then insisted there was some other factor involved like a difference in inputs used on the preamp.  When the test results showed that factor could not be a consideration, there was some other explanation.  I had a few engineers who wanted to take apart my preamp but I passed on that one:)  I'm more than fine with what anyone else believes or buys or does not buy.  I've done tests with some cables and heard night and day differences on one of my systems and moving it to another system I basically heard next to nothing in the way of differences.  It's nothing to get all excited about either way in the manner someone chooses to enjoy their system.  If someone asks for input on cables, I'm happy to share my experiences with what might work best in their system and not out to convert them to a particular way of thinking.  I'd tell anyone before they bought something expensive to be prudent and buy it with the right to a trial period so they can return it if did not work out.  That's just common sense.

KBK

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #32 on: 24 Nov 2007, 04:33 am »
KBK

What  does a pair of the 1 meter cables sell for?

james


They are $1888 per 1 meter pair. These ones, specifically the ones you have, measure out to approximately 1.3M, with a usable range of 1.05M, approx. They cannot be 'crimped' via sharp bending, as this may damage the fluid conduits. The extra length helps alleviate any possible issues. As we well know, audiophiles never try to stretch things....  :lol: 

We are thinking that this may become the standard shortest length available. With this particular method of conduction*, the shorter cable does not equate directly with being better sonically, so there is little reason beyond public perception of economics to produce, let's say, a 0.6M cable. I'd personally prefer not to provide a shorter cable. Constructional constraints make it difficult to to do so. Thus, in this specific case, difficulties create a situation where the economics of manufacturing bottom out near the length you have.

* for those outside of this conversation, the cable is a MHD-LC type cable, and that means "MagnetoHydroDynamic-Liquid Cable" (a room temperature fluid metal conductive pathway)
« Last Edit: 24 Nov 2007, 04:44 am by KBK »

pantone172

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #33 on: 24 Nov 2007, 03:03 pm »
I found this interesting link on the subject.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#introduction

Phil A

Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #34 on: 24 Nov 2007, 03:28 pm »
I've seen that link many times before.  Did not overly impress me as coming from someone with tons of real world experience.  Jenving, a Swedish cable manuf. used to have some good no nonsense info at their site (www.jenving.se), including pin connections for various cables and important factors for particular types of cables.  I've used their XLR connectors and termination trousers in making cables and they were of excellent quality.

pantone172

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #35 on: 24 Nov 2007, 06:15 pm »
I agree, However, Many unsubstantiated claims pervade the world of audio, and are often asserted as factually based, without any credible supporting evidence.

Although there is some truth to buying good quality analog interlinks of sufficient gauge and keeping the cable as short as possible. But what about Digital interlinks? A digital signal is comprised of 0s and 1s, and all that you should care about is that these arrive at the other end of the cable in the same order as they were sent, regardless of whether you use a short two foot cable, or a 100-foot cable.

so, what is it that makes a $10,000 wire better than a $10 wire?

Phil A

Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #36 on: 24 Nov 2007, 06:32 pm »
I agree, However, Many unsubstantiated claims pervade the world of audio, and are often asserted as factually based, without any credible supporting evidence.

Although there is some truth to buying good quality analog interlinks of sufficient gauge and keeping the cable as short as possible. But what about Digital interlinks? A digital signal is comprised of 0s and 1s, and all that you should care about is that these arrive at the other end of the cable in the same order as they were sent, regardless of whether you use a short two foot cable, or a 100-foot cable.

so, what is it that makes a $10,000 wire better than a $10 wire?


Unfortunately a digital signal is not transmitted as 0s and 1s down the cable which is part of the problem.  Dolby Digital is delivered in packets much like internet protocol and basically in theory they should be there or not be there.  PCM is not delivered that way though so there can be differences, whether those differences are worth it after a certain point is another matter.  I've never been able to hear Dolby Digital differences (although with 5.1 channels playing it is much tougher than listening to 2 channels playing - perhaps I just need 4 more ears :D) but have seen posts claiming people can.

pantone172

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #37 on: 24 Nov 2007, 06:46 pm »
Phil, I was referring to digital cable, fiber optic and HDMI.

KBK

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Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #38 on: 24 Nov 2007, 06:46 pm »
Quote
"so, what is it that makes a $10,000 wire better than a $10 wire?"

not sure. Perhaps a $10 wire can outperform a $10k wire. This does happen, and has happened. When it comes to digital, phase smear can cause issues, with respects to specific components of jitter spectrum.

As for cables, one can comparatively say that anyone can throw a rock. But how well and accurately? Thus the very nearly (OK, actually spent!) $100's of millions spent on getting to the perfect baseball pitch. Some guys use the science, some have a natural pitching ability. While such a point does not fit this situation entirely accurately, it would be falsehood based in ignorance to say that anyone can pitch as well as Nolan Ryan. We know that to be false, and in the same vein, it is a falsehood from the ignorant position of not knowing all there is to signal transmission, and auditory considerations, to say that cables do not make a difference. We always feel comfortable and happy when something fits our current world view. If our world view says that cables make little to no difference, then we will quote such articles and positions. If we feel otherwise, then we will quote and say otherwise.

Be it known, cable design is a darned esoteric lore, and few people truly know the art and the science. It is not as simple as a given engineer says. As an example, I revealed to a Mathematician friend the cable designs we are currently offering, ahead of time,and in a private email. He brought the information to a physicist friend..who poo-pooed the idea and design, saying it was a known science and known technology. I had to reply to him that it was not so, no-one had ever done such work, right up to the current moment and it was definitely new, period. OK, he says. It is only reasonable for me to maintain my silence on what I know, as this is the hard earned Lore, which I use to put bread on the table.

It was a case of a physicist's ignorance causing me trouble. Not the first time! :lol: In the same vein, the guy who wrote the article quoted above, really doesn't know that much about the subject. But he certainly seems to know what he wants you to hear and understand. He mixed in too much factual points of a obvious nature along with obvious falsehoods. Basically, he uses extreme examples combined with decent examples, to put his particular spin to the parts he does not understand. it appears to be an attempt to legitimize the whole point he is trying to make, which, from my lifetime of experience, is wholly wrong. Bad equipment, with bad wiring and bad design, in a bad room,with untrained ears, is not going to get you to hear the differences in cables.

One spends a large(r) amount of money on cables when the gear, the ear and room are improved enough to the point where the differences are easily heard. Swamping out these differences out with electronic and sonic noise isn't going to make it easy to do. An exaggeration that gets the point across: It is akin to attempting to calibrate the noise floor of a microphone, on a howitzer shooting range.

Suffice it to say..as one scales the heights of audiophile knowledge and gear, the cables really come into play, in terms of making a difference. Go back and read the point (post with picture) I made about 'how the ear hears'. read it very carefully. If you get that..then you will understand why cables make a difference,as well as the issues with digital vs analog. It's all there in black and white. This exact post shut down an argument on cable design on the DIYaudio forum, which is chock full of physicists and engineers. A far harder audience to satisfy does not exist, on the net. It is very much an explanatory and common sense post that explains the mystery and misconceptions that have plagued audio cables (as an issue) for many, many years.

The biggest point to take away..is that the ear does not hear or operate the same way we take and weigh audio measurments. Not even close.
« Last Edit: 24 Nov 2007, 07:02 pm by KBK »

95bcwh

Re: what cables to use?
« Reply #39 on: 24 Nov 2007, 07:12 pm »
I agree, However, Many unsubstantiated claims pervade the world of audio, and are often asserted as factually based, without any credible supporting evidence.
This is true, too much marketing hyperbola going around in this business (or in any other business), it's part of our life, it's our job to choose wisely.

so, what is it that makes a $10,000 wire better than a $10 wire?
How do you define "better"? :scratch:

Obviously, people spent that kind of money for various reasons, it might be that they really like what they heard, or they're rich and they can't see themselves buying cheap wires, there're all kinds of people in this world..we have no business telling people how to spend their money.

The objective way of looking at this cable business is:
(1) Yes, cables can make your system sound different, but there's no guarantee that it will sound "better" because "better" is dependent on individual taste, and it also depent on system synergy - if you change your preamp you may need a different cables. Wink2  In a nutshell, cable is just like another piece of component in your system.
(2) People who do not believe cables can impart its sound on a system obviously haven't listened enough. :lol: