[errivera]

John, as you describe the sound levels, I just have to say that in all fairness, it's not your fault. It seems that there are other factors to blame here. One thing in particular, it appears that your walls are really thin and allow certain frequencies to pass very easily.

You are correct in that floorstanding speakers will experience the problem of vibrating certain frequencies throughout the listening area and beyond. This is one of the reasons spikes are so highly recommended. They also keep external fequencies from affecting the speakers. However, a good pair is speaker stands with with the 626Rs (or other stand mounted speakers) may just take care of your problem.

Good luck with the neighbor though. I personally will never buy a attached home again. As another member mentioned, there's nothing like having your way in your own home.

[John Casler]

The downstairs inner wall is a possibility if this doens't work, but we're talking an L shaped room here, with the inner wall being 28 feet long with only 10 feet of length from side inner wall to side outer wall, with the speakers out at least 2 feet, we'd be very near field, and from what I've read on Brian's Desinger's corner, there's a problem with doing this. His speakers perform best when they have side near walls to reflect the sound. Were I to place them inner wall they'd be a good 8 feet from the left "ajoining" wall and a good 14 feet from the right side ajoining wall. Don't know what that would do to the sound, but from what I've read it might not be good.

Hi JB,

There is no problem placing VMPS speakers on the long wall, in fact that is exactly how I have my 626Rs set up currently.  While I have a room that is 19 x 30, my sweet spot is only about 7'-8' from the speakers.

They are about 24" from the wall to the closest rear corner. ands slightly over 9' apart (inside edge to inside edge)

While it is true that because of limited lateral dispersion of ribbons, side walls present "less of a problem", it is never a goal to use the side wall "to reflect sound" (with the exception of providing a bass boundary, which you are not concerned with)

I would say try that room and position, if it gives you more freedom with the volume control.

My speakers sound absolutley great in that config.

[John B]

There is no problem placing VMPS speakers on the long wall, in fact that is exactly how I have my 626Rs set up currently. While I have a room that is 19 x 30, my sweet spot is only about 7'-8' from the speakers

John,

Looks like I missed the "or more" part on the first read of Brian's placement advice

If you have a choice of setup locations, use the short wall of the room as the speaker wall and place them 12" to 16" from the back wall and 18" or more from the side walls.

  Hopefully the 12 - 16" from back wall is also flexible, as my placement, using the short wall will have them out 5 feet from the back wall (measured to rear of speaker).

[John Casler]

Hopefully the 12 - 16" from back wall is also flexible, as my placement, using the short wall will have them out 5 feet from the back wall (measured to rear of speaker).

You never know how the speaker will load an irregularly shaped room until you try it.

Recently we used the 626R several feet into the room on very light stands (hadn't been filled with sand yet) and they were rather bass shy, so this might work to your advantage.  

Now in reality, bass shyness at the listening position does not mean that the speaker is not putting out the same bass energy, it just means that the energy is not working its best bass at the listening position.

So in essense, it is always best to get the best bass response at the listening position you can so that you don't run at a higher listening level to recieve "bass satisfaction"

[John B]

Recently we used the 626R several feet into the room on very light stands (hadn't been filled with sand yet) and they were rather bass shy, so this might work to your advantage.

Now in reality, bass shyness at the listening position does not mean that the speaker is not putting out the same bass energy, it just means that the energy is not working its best bass at the listening position.

Interesting...if that's the case, perhaps I don't need to install the bass traps I had in mind.   I could be good to go as is.

[John Casler]

Interesting...if that's the case, perhaps I don't need to install the bass traps I had in mind. I could be good to go as is

Bass traps may still be a good idea, since their main purpose is to reduce standing waves, room nodes, and give you good bass at the listening position.

As bass enters a corner, it gets really compressed by having to travel along room boundaries (walls, floor and ceiling)

As it gets focused into a smaller and smaller area it creates all kinds of problematic sonics.  The bass traps really help this out (in some rooms)

But don't get the idea that they reduce the affect the airborne sound wave has on the room boundaries.  This airborne bass is strong and is what causes most of the "thumpin" your neighbor is hearing.

The best idea, is to create the sonic atmosphere where the lowest volume level creates the greatest balance of all frequencies, so that bass is strong enough at the listening position that you don't require additional volume to enjoy it.

[ctviggen]

Speaking of bass traps (or acoustic traps in general), has anyone used these guys:

http://www.realtraps.com/

They're here in CT, so I was thinking of taking a trip to their showroom.

[zybar]

Bob,

I am using their products and have had excellent results.

The MiniTraps have proved more effective in my room than tube traps or Phase 4 Towers.

Plus, Ethan is a good guy to deal with.

Absolutely worth the trip and he gives a 30 day money back trial period.  Worst case you are out a few bucks shipping.

Good luck.

George

[John B]

Speaking of bass traps (or acoustic traps in general), has anyone used these guys:

http://www.realtraps.com/

As a matter of fact, these are the bass traps I'm going to be using.   Going to be placing my order today.

[ctviggen]

That's good!   Let me know what you think.  Are you going to do any room analyses before and after?  What I'm going to do is worry about setting the speakers up, burning them in, programming my remote to run everything (my programs were lost due to a hard drive failure), and then worry about acoustics.  Since this company is so close (I can be there in about 45 minutes), I was going to drive there with an outline of my room and acoustic data (taken from a program I've yet to buy) and see what they recommend.  Then I was going to take "after" acoustic data.  Somewhere in here will also be setting up the RM40s, but I'm not sure where.

[Dunedain]

Actually, if I recall correctly, Brian said that spikes on the bottom of speaker stands
actually make the speakers transfer their base power *more* effectively to the floor, not less.
Causing the bass traveling through the floor to get to the listener faster than the bass
going through the air (sound travels faster through denser materials), which can cause
problems with a muddying of the bass.

So spikes on the speaker stands wouldn't help with reducing the bass that neighbors
might hear in an apartment building.

On the other hand, it's always been my understanding that the reason one puts spikes on
a speaker stand is to isolate the speakers from the floor in the sense that vibrations
in the room, such as from someone walking around the room while music is playing, will not
reach the speaker cabinets themselves and cause a reduction in the purity and clarity of
the sound.

John Casler:  Do I have that about right?

[John B]

Are you going to do any room analyses before and after?

I do want to get my room acoustically analyzed, mostly out of curiosity.   Just need to find someone local with the experience and tools to do the job properly.  My main issue is low bass though, don't have the imaging problems or high frequency harshness associated with first reflection point issues.    The traps should clear up 90% of my problems.   I did do a basic analysis with a frequency tone CD, and my db spikes were all over the place from 30hz up through the mid-bass region...beyond that it was pretty flat, based on the Radio Shack db meter...not the most accurate instrument, but enough to give a general idea of how the room is exciting the frequencies.

[zybar]

It's not just numbers.  

I have heard a room that was almost perfectly flat and it sounded horrible.  Ethan's (or toehrs) room treatmeants do more than just numbers.  The can change the tonal qualities of the music and other things such as soundstage, imaging, etc...

Using the meter is a good starting point, but trust your ears for your final analysis.

George

[ctviggen]

I was going to use the numbers just as an interesting thing to do and also to see what the makers of these products think.  When I was in my rental house, I took some numbers using a test tone CD and a RS meter.  These numbers pointed out what I knew, which is that bass response sucked.  I rearranged everything (no small feat, when you have to move an entire 5-channel system around -- just running speaker wire took a while), putting the system on a different wall, and the new numbers reflected a much better bass response (and this was easy to verify by ears, too).  

If I can get a helper, it would be interesting to move some of the treatments around -- while playing music -- just to see what happens.

[John Casler]

Actually, if I recall correctly, Brian said that spikes on the bottom of speaker stands
actually make the speakers transfer their base power *more* effectively to the floor, not less.
Causing the bass traveling through the floor to get to the listener faster than the bass
going through the air (sound travels faster through denser materials), which can cause
problems with a muddying of the bass.

So spikes on the speaker stands wouldn't help with reducing the bass that neighbors
might hear in an apartment building.

On the other hand, it's always been my understanding that the reason one puts spikes on
a speaker stand is to isolate the speakers from the floor in the sense that vibrations
in the room, such as from someone walking around the room while music is playing, will not
reach the speaker cabinets themselves and cause a reduction in the purity and clarity of
the sound.

John Casler: Do I have that about right?...

Hi Dunedain,

I think we'll find that different types of spikes serve "supposedly" different purposes.

If we are talking about metal speaker spikes, I think the primary function is to offer a very "secure" mechanical coupling to the floor.

This coupling will then sum with the mass of the speaker or speaker/stand and offer greater resistance to the reactive forces created by the speaker (generally woofers)

By creating a "stable launch platform" the movements of the cone or diaphragm will have a more accurate response, especially to sounds that create significant leading edge and rapid rise times.

These rapid speaker response actions create physical forces that if not anchored or secured by mass, will not allow accurate reproduction and deliterious effects such as smearing, softness, flabbiness, and such can be the result.

It is "more" likely that any significant floor movement, as far as "BASS" is concerned, will not come from this coupling, since the speaker has a difficult time causing the floor to move laterally/horizontally due to the significant stiffness of the materials properties (wood/concrete/other)

low Bass notes require "substantial movement", of a material to be audible.

Higher frequencies can be transmitted but are not generally audible since it usually takes rather high volume levels to create enough force and this precludes the possiblity of hearing the floor, if in fact it is audible at all without placing your ear on the floor.

Airborne soundwaves however are "VERY" powerful and also act on the floor (and ceiling and walls) at their weaker structural points which can cause them to react vertically. (vertically for floor and ceiling and laterally/horizontally for walls)

When a neighbor "hears" your music, it is usually the lowest BASS frequencies that are loudest.  This is almost totally due to the airborne SPLs of the woofer(s) causing the room boundaries to react to their pressurization.

If you had a speaker mounted directly on an adjoining wall, the actual coupling and mechanical transduction might be more significant at higher frequencies.

So in the end, the best way to reduce the bass a neighbor experiences, is to create a set up that offers the best bass, at the lowest listening levels, so you can enjoy a full frequencied listeing experince, without maxing out the volume/gain control.

(whew too much coffee   )

[Dunedain]

John Casler:  Yeah, I suppose spikes can be used for a variety of purposes.  As you point out, they would
tend to hold a speaker in place better when the volumes get high (most importantly, bass), especially lighter speakers
that don't have the kind of weight to be steady on their own.

But one also sees spikes used on the better stereo equipment racks often.  In this case, it's to isolate
the equipment from the room (any vibrations, in particular), rather than connect it.

[JoshK]

I would suggest that it (cones for components) is as much to do with draining of electrical vibration as isolation.  Cones should be pointed down (IMHO) to drain vibrations into a damping material (e.g. wood) which also serves to isolate.

[John Casler]

But one also sees spikes used on the better stereo equipment racks often.  In this case, it's to isolate
the equipment from the room (any vibrations, in particular), rather than connect it.

Correct,  and while I may see value in draining, or isolating sensitive components, I've yet to be convinced that it is valuable for speakers.

But I have an open mind (only at the top! )

[ctviggen]

Has anyone tested these isolation devices?  I bought some for my subwoofer, which was causing intense rattles throughout the house, and they really quelled the rattles and allowed me to turn up the sub.  I also bought some for my CD player and my preamp, but I made too many changes at once to see whether they made any difference, and getting my equipment into and out of my rack was too hard.  I never did any "with isolation" and "without isolation" testing.

[John B]

Looks like the Unico hybrid tube Integrated amp and the 626Rs are a well matched couple, at least from my first evening of listening to these wonderful speakers.  I think my neigbor problem is solved, the bass certainly makes it's presence felt, but it's more of a natural blend with the rest of the frequencies, it doesn't overpower, it doesn't carry, and has no boom whatsover, except on CDs where they mixed for hyper bass, which really doens't sound good on any speakers or amp I've had in my system anyway.   I haven't got the stands filled, as I'm waiting for my steel shot fill to arrive, and my bass traps are in FedEx limbo, due to be returned to the mfg. and then re-shipped to me.   Don't get me started on that, FedEx is on my big time poop list, and will not be getting any more dollars from this audiophile.   Not that UPS is any better, but at least they didn't rip me off of a $100 shipping charge that will have to be paid again for a re-ship.   It's a long depressing story, but at least the 626Rs have got me back in a happy mood tonight.