50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!

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John Casler

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« on: 10 Nov 2004, 12:22 am »
Drat  :?

Just fooling around with my set up today and got a wild Chuck Josephson type hair to try a tweak I had been thinking about for some time, but just never got around to.

Well I tried it and damn if it doesn't work wonders in "my" room (YMMV)

I have to warn you in advance like so many home tweaks it looks like "A**" but sounds like heaven.

It is a plain and simple tweak that most anyone can do in 5 minutes with things you have right in your home.

And although it looks crappy, it can be set up and taken down in 30 seconds.

The GREAT news is that in most rooms it could have 50-60% (or even more) of the effect of a LEDE set up, that can be thrown up and taken down with ease.

I have to go workout right now so I'll post the details in a couple hours :mrgreen:

I think some of you may like this, especially if you have a limited abiity to hang much room treatment. :wink:

John Casler

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #1 on: 10 Nov 2004, 01:05 am »
Just had to try it again before working out.

 :rock:  :rock:  :rock:  :rock:

Wow!! how do you spell depth????  If you do a nearfield with this tweak the soundstage and 3-D depth goes deep, deep, deep :notworthy:

Ok gotta "pump up"

shokunin

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50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #2 on: 10 Nov 2004, 01:21 am »
Workout?  You don't need no workout, just come by my place next week and you can pull, push, tug, grab, and grope some 375+lb boxes around.
  :lol:

John Casler

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #3 on: 10 Nov 2004, 03:10 am »
Quote from: shokunin
Workout?  You don't need no workout, just come by my place next week and you can pull, push, tug, grab, and grope some 375+lb boxes around.
  :lol:


I'll try to remember my hernia belt :lol:

John Casler

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #4 on: 10 Nov 2004, 04:23 am »
OK what a workout 8)

In any event I spent a few more cuts in front of the new tweak  and all I can say is it really does the job in my room.

Now the title of this thread says it all.

I assume many would like "some" if not all of the benefits of a Live End Dead End room for their VMPS, since Big B, uses such a room in voicing and auditioning his wares.

The advantages of a Dead End room is that all the surfaces are covered in an acoustically absorbative material to virtually eliminate most frontal, reflections from the front, and side walls as well as the floor and ceiling.

This creates a "black hole" from which a pair of speakers disappear and then can paint an incrediblly detailed and accurate sonic hologram.

Well not everyone has a dedicated room where they can put up the sound proofing needed to accomplish this.  Plus many use their systems "double duty".  That is they are both stereo and HT in the same room.  Many times this includes a BIG SCREEN  :o  and sonically reflective Projection TV.

Well I have been thinking what would be the simplest method of accomplishing some of the qualities of the DE of the room.

Obviously they're is more than one way to skin a cat (well come to think of it I don't know that for a fact, since I don't even know one way :roll: ) but there is more than one way to deal with keeping sound waves from the speakers, from bouncing off the front wall, side walls, ceiling and floor.

So rather than treating the surfaces that cause the reflection, we (instead) reduce the amount of sound that can travel to them and be reflected.

Primarily this tweak involves taking a material ( I used two big beach towels and or about 7' x 2' sheets of shelf liner)

Looks like Obi Wan Kenobi 626R

The towel and or shelf liner are placed over the speaker in such a way as to form an upside down U over each of them.  I have about 6" of weights on top of my speakers to add mass and tighten bass.  This makes the upper "hood" (bottom of the upside down U) that is at the top of the speaker about 6" above the top of the speaker.

The whole device then is "slid forward" so that it sticks out about 5-6" over the top and sides of the speaker.

Now, I had to use something on top to not let the towel "droop" down.  I found the grill of the 626R laying on top of the speaker worked fine, but you may need to use something else. (be inventive here but don't use something that is highly reflective of sound)

So what we have is a very thick Beach Towel (or material of your choice as long as it is thick and absorbs well)  that is draped over your speaker so that the front of the speaker is still fully exposed to you in the listening position, and the towel sticks out over the front and sides about 5"-6" effectively blocking much of the sound that would go to the side walls and the ceiling.

Now, I claimed that it probably offered a high percentage of the Dead End benefits, based on the fact that it blocks most of the "direct" sound energy from the speaker to these wall surfaces, but because the material is light will not negatively impact the bass.

It WILL NOT (of course) block sound that is reflected from the back wall bouncing back to the front wall (I suggest acoustically treating the front wall a bit between the speakers if you can get away with it)

If you have a RPTV sitting there this will work wonders.  If you throw a nice comforter or very thick blanket over the front of the TV for serious listening along with this tweak, you will be astounded. :o  :o

If you do not experience more detail, resolution, clairity and unbeleivable depth then it is probably set up wrong.

But as I promised, it is a godsend for those who have ceiling bounce and side reflections, but can't do anything about it.  Also you RPTV guys...If you throw a blanket over the screen and use this tweak, you'll flip out :bounce:

And too, as I indicated, it can be put in placed in about 30 seconds once you have experimented with it to get it the way you like it.

It can then reside in the linen closet, until such a time as serious listening rears it "pretty little head", and KAZAMMMM ya got a live end dead end by proxy.

This is a good thing since as I also mentioned this "don't look all that great" (but with the lights out and the volume turned up, you'll forget about that real quick) :wink:

Hope it gives you as much fun and improvement as it gave me (and I have quite  bit of acoustic treatment all ready)

And I forgot to mention that for whatever reason it also seemed to enhance the Upper bass (I have no idea why) which was a nice plus.

If ya try it, let me know how it worked.  If ya try it and it doesn't deliver feel free to contact me for more info.

Enjoy :mrgreen:

PS.  this can be used with other speakers besides VMPS, in fact it would probably offer even greater benefits with a higher dispersion driver set.

doug s.

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50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #5 on: 10 Nov 2004, 02:03 pm »
reminds me of the old watkins echo muffs.  similar deal, made outta foam.  i have always thought of fabricating something like these...

doug s.

JoshK

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #6 on: 10 Nov 2004, 02:18 pm »
Another way of doing this, I would think is to build wave guides, aka big horns for the speakers and then if you don't want the horn loading then coat the inside with thick felt (2"-3" industrial felt).

SWG255

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More difficult for RM-40s?
« Reply #7 on: 10 Nov 2004, 02:35 pm »
If I'm visualizing the tweak correctly, it would seem to be more difficult to do with the RM-40s since the neo panels and tweeter run most of the vertical length of the speaker. I have one of these rooms where I can't really put acoustic treatment on either side of the speakers and I have a 30" CRT television between (but about 12" behind) them. When I am listening seriously I can improve the sound quite a bit by covering the TV with a blanket, so it appears John's advice is very sound.

As my system improves I long for a better room to put it in, but in this part of the country the cost of buying the new house for this is more than I can handle with a kid going to college in a few years. I can dream though...

csero

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #8 on: 10 Nov 2004, 03:01 pm »
Extreme nearfild and increased speaker directionality is just two basic tricks to overcome the inherent stereo faults  :wink:

John Casler

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #9 on: 10 Nov 2004, 03:38 pm »
Hi All,

Yes, there are a multitude of ways to do this and as Frank says it is principled on "nearfield and directionality". Which is short for sitting close enough to reduce reflected sonics, due to the "precedence effect" and limiting the dispersive direction of the speaker so that less sound is spread out to room surfaces to bounce back and muddy thing up.

With a speaker as large as the RM40, you would need to use something on the scale of a large blanket or probably the best would be two 72" acoustic foam sheets connected at the top.

I have little doubt that this has been used before and it is an offshout of my "Sonic Director" tweak for the RM40 a while back.

But the improvement is remarkable, with the following caveats:

1) As mentioned earlier it looks "BAD" (but sounds GRAND)
2) It works the best nearfeild
3) The improvement is in the sweet spot
4) treating the Front Wall between the speakers amplifies the LEDE comparison, by blocking "indirect" reflection/diffusion that still muddys the sound.

Gordy

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #10 on: 11 Nov 2004, 01:43 am »
McMaster-Carr carries Armaflex, which is a closed cell insulation foam which we use for insulating 100Db polymer knives.  It is 1" thick and fairly stiff, so it's easy to glue into structures!  May be an excellent candidate for this type of shielding....   Hope to give it a try this weekend 8)  .  If John is right about the slight upper bass  highlight, it may be the answer to my (suspended floor?) suckout!!!  

Thanks :D
Gordy

PLMONROE

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50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #11 on: 13 Nov 2004, 12:02 am »
Instead of cloth, why not build the "horseshoe" out of nicely finished room paneling with the finished side out and the inside lined with felt? That coud look elegant enough to leave on permanently.

Paul

John Casler

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #12 on: 13 Nov 2004, 12:59 am »
Quote from: PLMONROE
Instead of cloth, why not build the "horseshoe" out of nicely finished room paneling with the finished side out and the inside lined with felt? That coud look elegant enough to leave on permanently.

Paul


Hi Paul,

Yeah, I'd like to see that.  Although, the materials would have to be selected carefully, since the idea is not to reflect or direct (like a horn) but to absorb and block ceiling and side dispersion.

On the RM40 the upper section could be of a stiffer material (as in the Sonic director tweek), but if the side portions were too stiff to the point of being reflective (felt would reduce the HF but might not absorb enough of the mids) the mids might reflect on each other and muddy a bit.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but before actually building something a little trial and error might be nessessary.

Paneling might work, if it had a layer of acoustic foam first, then felt.

Anyhow, if anyone does that, I'm all ears as to the results :roll:

doug s.

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50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #13 on: 13 Nov 2004, 08:40 pm »
Quote from: PLMONROE
Instead of cloth, why not build the "horseshoe" out of nicely finished room paneling with the finished side out and the inside lined with felt? That coud look elegant enough to leave on permanently.

Paul


the watkins echo muffs i mentioned earlier were basically foam horseshoes.  i have always thought of doing this tweak.  but, i would use at least 4" thick foam, w/the diamonds or ridges, etc, that are used in anechioc chambers.  6" would be better.  and, i would not have wood paneling on the outside.  as john mentions, you don't wanna end up reflecting the sound back.  at most, i would use wood framing along the edges, for structural support.  for appearance, a nice fabric of your choice could always be used to cover the backs.  and, these could easily be made portable, to be installed/removed as needed.

doug s.

BrunoB

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #14 on: 17 Nov 2004, 09:58 pm »
Quote from: John Casler

And I forgot to mention that for whatever reason it also seemed to enhance the Upper bass (I have no idea why) which was a nice plus.  ...


The adsorbing material around the speaker enclosure might be directing more upper bass forward, acting like a horn. Just a hypothesis.


Bruno

John Casler

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #15 on: 18 Nov 2004, 01:17 am »
I have been listening this way for over a week now and it is fantastic.

Just pulled out an old Symphonic CD I haven't listened to for over a year.  The soundstage was "MUCH" improved with better imaging than ever before, as well as depth.

Detail was far better and highs were now more extended.

Making a mental note to listen again and do the Bedini Clarifier routine and see just how good it can get.

lonewolfny42

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50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #16 on: 18 Nov 2004, 08:07 am »
John,
    Could you post a picture of this ? Thanks !! :) [/list:u]

John Casler

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #17 on: 18 Nov 2004, 03:54 pm »
Quote from: lonewolfny42
John,
    Could you post a picture of this ? Thanks !! :) [/list:u]


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Wasn't it Tommy who said "see me", "hear me"????

Well in this case it is "ONLY" hear me, but yes, I'll dig up my digital camera and post a pic or two. (which will also show my 4 LARGER Subs :o  stacked on top of each other)

BrunoB

Nice tweak
« Reply #18 on: 22 Nov 2004, 05:48 pm »
John,

I have implemented and noticed a welcome sound improvement using your tweak. Previously, I used two piece of foam attached to each side of the speaker, parrallel to the speaker sides. I did not notice a upper bass increase at that time. I use now a 12'' deep rectangular box covered with thick carpet that fits the front of my 626R like a speaker grill. In my case, the bottom is closed as well, which I believe further increase the amount of directed bass (or delay the spreading of bass).

Quote from: John Casler
The whole device then is "slid forward" so that it sticks out about 5-6" over the top and sides of the speaker.


I have too much bass at this time and I wonder  if you have tried with different depths for your tweak and noticed a difference in bass level?


My speakers are angled directly at the listening position, which I think is important, otherwise sound reflected from the inside box would reach my ears, somehow like a speaker diffraction.


Thanks again for sharing this tweak,

Bruno

DSK

50-60% of a LEDE sound with one simple tweak!!!
« Reply #19 on: 22 Nov 2004, 10:12 pm »
Quote from: Gordy
McMaster-Carr carries Armaflex, which is a closed cell insulation foam which we use...


Gordy, you need open-cell foam for this, not closed-cell. Closed-cell foam is excellent for treating structure borne resonance and for impact control, but not for absorbing airborne sound waves.