AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 17 Jul 2019, 10:15 pm
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Okay guys these are the new caps that I will be carrying. They are a pure Copper foil and wax paper film design. These are 100 volt rated caps.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/copper%20caps.jpg)
I will be offering introductory discount prices of 25% off when two or more caps are ordered.
Here are the sizes, retail prices, and introductory discount price.
5.0uF retail $275 each, and discounted $206.25
6.0uF retail $315 each, and discounted $236.25
6.8uF retail $320 each, and discounted $240.00
8.0uF retail $325 each, and discounted $243.75
9.0uF retail $345 each, and discounted $258.75
10uF retail $350 each, and discounted $262.50
12uF retail $360 each, and discounted $270.00
15uF retail $475 each, and discounted $356.25
20uF retail $576 each, and discounted $432.00
Call to order: 940-592-3400
Here are the Dimensions of the caps in inches:
Length X Diameter
5uF= 2.5” X 1.625”
6uF= 2.5” X 2.0”
6.8uF= 2.5” X 2.0”
8uF= 2.5” X 2.0”
9uF= 2.5” X 2.25”
10uF= 4.95” X 1.75”
12uF= 4.95” X 1.82”
15uF= 4.95” X 2.0”
20uF= 4.95” X 2.5”
The leads AWG are 18AWG for the 5uF through the 9uF.
Leads on the 10uF through the 20uF are 16AWG.
All use solid Copper wire with 99.99% purity and Tinned leads.
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I suppose I'll jump out there and be bold enough to ask the questions others may be afraid to ask:
Are these rebadged Miflex caps? If not, and since they're in the same price range, how do your caps differ/compare to Miflex caps?
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Newbie question:
Can these be used on any component (preamp, amp, DAC, crossover)?
Early B,
Thank you for asking the question.
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Newbie question:
Can these be used on any component (preamp, amp, DAC, crossover)?
Early B,
Thank you for asking the question.
speaker / cross over voltage, not for high voltage electronics circuits
Early, no , not relabeled Miflex caps, these were done from the ground up with high purity copper I believe was sourced from Germany
Jay
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Danny
Will these be a good (albeit expensive) upgrade to the Sonicaps and Erse for the NX-Oticas?
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I suppose I'll jump out there and be bold enough to ask the questions others may be afraid to ask:
Are these rebadged Miflex caps? If not, and since they're in the same price range, how do your caps differ/compare to Miflex caps?
Development of these actually started before the Miflex caps were brought into the US. These are US made caps.
These are also lower voltage caps and not as big physically as the Miflex caps.
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Danny
Will these be a good (albeit expensive) upgrade to the Sonicaps and Erse for the NX-Oticas?
Yes they would.
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Newbie question:
Can these be used on any component (preamp, amp, DAC, crossover)?
Early B,
Thank you for asking the question.
They can be used in anything that is low voltage. So coupling cap positions or in a DAC is fine.
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These look more like the Jupiter low voltage caps, but using even better quality copper than they use, is that correct? If so, that's a HELL of a deal you have going on Danny.
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These look more like the Jupiter low voltage caps, but using even better quality copper than they use, is that correct? If so, that's a HELL of a deal you have going on Danny.
Tyson -- you're probably in a great position to conduct a cap shoot-out between these, Miflex and Jupiters. Some of us are curious about the sonic merits of these caps.
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Tyson -- you're probably in a great position to conduct a cap shoot-out between these, Miflex and Jupiters. Some of us are curious about the sonic merits of these caps.
+1 on a shootout Tyson :thumb:
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These look more like the Jupiter low voltage caps, but using even better quality copper than they use, is that correct? If so, that's a HELL of a deal you have going on Danny.
Yes. The company that is making these caps once also made the Jupiter caps. So they are quite good and very experienced at making caps of this type.
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+1 on a shootout Tyson :thumb:
Sure thing, just let me set up the GoFundMe page :lol:
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Sure thing, just let me set up the GoFundMe page :lol:
:rotflmao:
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Sure thing, just let me set up the GoFundMe page :lol:
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And we all thought you wanted to take your S7's to the next level. :P
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And we all thought you wanted to take your S7's to the next level. :P
You know, before the divorce I would have had the $$ to do it, but money is tight when you get divorced in CO.
I compensate by pulling my speakers halfway into the damn room any time I want to :P
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You know, before the divorce I would have had the $$ to do it, but money is tight when you get divorced in CO.
I compensate by pulling my speakers halfway into the damn room any time I want to :P
I totally get it! Maybe Danny will send some to his favorite S7 owner to try and report back to the other followers. ;)
Edit: Then you and Pez can add to the Tuesday Tech Talk.. :lol:
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Oh, Tyson -- the fact that you could afford to get a divorce tells us you have plenty of money for these caps. Just do it, man, so we can hear your system vicariously.
If it made sense for me to do it, I would, but the number and values of the Copper Caps I need cost a few hundred dollars more than what I paid for my speakers. :o
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If I understand this correctly - for the S7 you would need a 10 & 15 for each speaker to replace the 2 Sonicaps?
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Congratulations! What is the tolerance? Lead material and gauge? Did they use paper only, or paper and poly?
(Edit)Oops! I did not see your other post regarding the lead material. I could not tell that they were tinned leads in the pic. I was just curious if you went with the 4/9s solid Silver like the Jupiters. I'm still curious what gauge lead though.
These look more like the Jupiter low voltage caps, but using even better quality copper than they use, is that correct? If so, that's a HELL of a deal you have going on Danny.
Same Copper.
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If I understand this correctly - for the S7 you would need a 10 & 15 for each speaker to replace the 2 Sonicaps?
Correct.
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Correct.
Would you still use the Platinum bypass caps?
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When I up grade to the Jupiter caps on my X-over, Danny recommended still using the Platinum by pass caps.
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When I up grade to the Jupiter caps on my X-over, Danny recommended still using the Platinum by pass caps.
I'd be curious to know why one would use a presumably lower quality Sonicap bypass cap on a top-of-the-line Jupiter cap.
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When I up grade to the Jupiter caps on my X-over, Danny recommended still using the Platinum by pass caps.
I'd only bypass with another cap made of copper, if I was going to do that. IME there are sometimes tradeoffs with a bypass cap in a speaker circuit, so best thing is try it and see if you like it. Here's my general take - if you have a tin foil or aluminum foil main cap (pretty much all film caps are either tin or aluminum), then bypassing with a higher quality small cap can get you improvements in speed, detail and even tone. But, going with a higher quality main cap (like Danny's new caps or the Jupiters), you already have top-line speed, detail, and tone, plus you end up with slightly better coherence. Well, that's based on some past caps, I've not actually tried it on the 10uf or 15uf Jupiters.
I will say this, if I were to bypass, it'd be with another Jupiter or GR Research copper or Duelund cap at a .1uf value. If someone "really" wanted to use a bypass cap with teflon, I'd rec using the V-Cap copper/teflon .1uf from VH Audio. IME, teflon gives you more detail but less tone vs. the other copper caps.
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These look more like the Jupiter low voltage caps, but using even better quality copper than they use, is that correct? If so, that's a HELL of a deal you have going on Danny.
There is only one manufacturer of thin copper foil in the world.....this is coming from a 35+ years in the industry
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Development of these actually started before the Miflex caps were brought into the US. These are US made caps.
These are also lower voltage caps and not as big physically as the Miflex caps.
Without disclosing proprietary details, what development was undertaken to make these different from Miflex or Jupiter? There is a very limited number of film/foil (raw materials) manufacturers, so my guess is the materials are basically the same.
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Yes. The company that is making these caps once also made the Jupiter caps. So they are quite good and very experienced at making caps of this type.
Sorry at the risk of sounding like a broken record, better quality copper foil? From my understanding there is only one source.
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There is only one manufacturer of thin copper foil in the world.....this is coming from a 35+ years in the industry
I think you may be right.
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Without disclosing proprietary details, what development was undertaken to make these different from Miflex or Jupiter? There is a very limited number of film/foil (raw materials) manufacturers, so my guess is the materials are basically the same.
If you'd like a comparison then I'd say these were very much like the Jupiter caps but with a high purity Tinned Copper lead instead of a Silver Lead.
And while this type of capacitor is very expensive to make, the mark up to a retail price is less aggressive.
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Sorry at the risk of sounding like a broken record, better quality copper foil? From my understanding there is only one source.
I never mentioned anything about the foil itself being better or even making a comparison.
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And I figured this thread would bring in some all new to Audio Circle posters. Welcome to AC Mr. capman1957. You must be very interested in this type of capacitor to join AC and post about it. Would you like to tell us about yourself or maybe why you were interested in the new Copper Caps enough to join and post?
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Hey, I'm feeling neglected here :icon_lol:
BTW, there are a couple of sources for thin Copper foil today. Even an Asian source, but I have not reviewed their product...
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Congratulations! What is the tolerance? Lead material and gauge? Did they use paper only, or paper and poly?
(Edit)Oops! I did not see your other post regarding the lead material. I could not tell that they were tinned leads in the pic. I was just curious if you went with the 4/9s solid Silver like the Jupiters. I'm still curious what gauge lead though.
Same Copper.
I did not see this post until just now. It was the last post on the first page and since it went to two pages I had been picking up from there.
The tolerances are suppose to be being held to within 2%. I'll see once they get here.
I posted more information on the opening post adding cap sizes and gauge thickness of the leads.
I think these are just a wax paper only design. I don't know too much detail about the innards. My only input was to use a high purity Copper lead on them rather than a Silver lead like what was used on the Jupiter caps.
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When I up grade to the Jupiter caps on my X-over, Danny recommended still using the Platinum by pass caps.
Likely because the warm rich presentation of the Jupiters can benefit from the micro detail/dynamics/speed/transparency that Platinums add to the right application. Further, they add a subtle sweetness that paper caps do not have.
IME there are sometimes tradeoffs with a bypass cap in a speaker circuit, so best thing is try it and see if you like it.
If someone "really" wanted to use a bypass cap with teflon, I'd rec using the V-Cap copper/teflon .1uf from VH Audio.
IME, teflon gives you more detail but less tone vs. the other copper caps.
Agreed
I've actually had a few customers over the years that upgraded to the CuTF Vcap from the TFTF Vcap, and did not like the result. In their move back, they bought Platinums :green:
Agreed.
The tolerances are suppose to be being held to within 2%. I'll see once they get here.
That will be interesting to see. One of the reasons they parted ways was because of the production loss just trying to hold 5%.
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And I figured this thread would bring in some all new to Audio Circle posters. Welcome to AC Mr. capman1957. You must be very interested in this type of capacitor to join AC and post about it. Would you like to tell us about yourself or maybe why you were interested in the new Copper Caps enough to join and post?
I've been in this industry for a long time, just not currently active. I can't remember how/where I found the thread, but it sounds interesting. I was a member of another High End Audio blog and found the comments regarding capacitors, how should I say this, Childish..... Such as "A particular capacitor construction has no effect on sound quality".
I'm a little bit of a material geek, so when I see comments about materials and construction I get interested.
Thanks for asking Danny
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That will be interesting to see. One of the reasons they parted ways was because of the production loss just trying to hold 5%.
Yeah, I am not holding my breath on that, but if I can make closely matched pairs from them then that will work.
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I've been in this industry for a long time, just not currently active. I can't remember how/where I found the thread, but it sounds interesting. I was a member of another High End Audio blog and found the comments regarding capacitors, how should I say this, Childish..... Such as "A particular capacitor construction has no effect on sound quality".
I'm a little bit of a material geek, so when I see comments about materials and construction I get interested.
Thanks for asking Danny
I am also amazed at the people that will blinding claim that these things will have no effect on the sound. The snake oil drums have been beat to death by those people. Most of my customers are pretty high up the ladder when it comes to system quality. And they know good and well how much difference these things can make.
Feel free to join in here anytime.
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Hey, I'm feeling neglected here :icon_lol:
BTW, there are a couple of sources for thin Copper foil today. Even an Asian source, but I have not reviewed their product...
Hmm, Never heard of that. I'd love to hear how that shakes out.....thin as in 6um or less
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Yeah, I am not holding my breath on that, but if I can make closely matched pairs from them then that will work.
+/- 2% is a tall order for such large parts. I remember many years ago (20+) an engineer told me there are 4 variables that are difficult to control, two of which are controlled by the material manufacturers. The other two variables are a virtue of the manufacturing equipment/operator.
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I'd only bypass with another cap made of copper, if I was going to do that. IME there are sometimes tradeoffs with a bypass cap in a speaker circuit, so best thing is try it and see if you like it. Here's my general take - if you have a tin foil or aluminum foil main cap (pretty much all film caps are either tin or aluminum), then bypassing with a higher quality small cap can get you improvements in speed, detail and even tone. But, going with a higher quality main cap (like Danny's new caps or the Jupiters), you already have top-line speed, detail, and tone, plus you end up with slightly better coherence. Well, that's based on some past caps, I've not actually tried it on the 10uf or 15uf Jupiters.
I will say this, if I were to bypass, it'd be with another Jupiter or GR Research copper or Duelund cap at a .1uf value. If someone "really" wanted to use a bypass cap with teflon, I'd rec using the V-Cap copper/teflon .1uf from VH Audio. IME, teflon gives you more detail but less tone vs. the other copper caps.
Are the V-cap copper/Teflon caps actually Teflon? or perhaps PTFE or FEP?
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Hmm, Never heard of that. I'd love to hear how that shakes out.....thin as in 6um or less
Well, I guess you heard it now :wink: I'm not sure which company you are referring to, but more than one forms thin copper. And, the Asian company claims they can supply 6um copper.
Are the V-cap copper/Teflon caps actually Teflon? or perhaps PTFE or FEP?
I have no idea what they are doing over there these days. I know chris vh gets silly when someone even speculates about his product in a way that he may deem as negative :roll: However, given the sharp nature of slit copper, I doubt it is FEP even though they had crowning/crimping issues with their early single layer film parts. <--This was/is not public knowledge.
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Well, I guess you heard it now :wink: I'm not sure which company you are referring to, but more than one forms thin copper. And, the Asian company claims they can supply 6um copper.
I have no idea what they are doing over there these days. I know chris vh gets silly when someone even speculates about his product in a way that he may deem as negative :roll: However, given the sharp nature of slit copper, I doubt it is FEP even though they had crowning/crimping issues with their early single layer film parts. <--This was/is not public knowledge.
Interesting....the German company has had the market for years. I recall back in the 90's the thinnest available was 10um. What causes the sharp edge of the slit copper? I would tend to think if its annealed dead soft there wouldn't be an issue.
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Slitting not only profiles the edge, it work hardens it. As a materials guy, I would assume you would see the potential. I do not consider myself a materials guy, but my manufacturing engineering education explains the science. And, my experience confirms the result.
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Dead soft annealing greatly minimizes this issue. Is it work harden edges or micro abrasion caused by slitting?
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Having access to an SEM would prove this theory....which I do
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Slitting not only profiles the edge, it work hardens it. As a materials guy, I would assume you would see the potential. I do not consider myself a materials guy, but my manufacturing engineering education explains the science. And, my experience confirms the result.
I don't doubt your education for a second. Have you ever been in a converting plant? One that manufactures film or foil? What about a slitter or metalizer? Ever design one or work on one? why yes, yes I have....
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Dead soft annealing greatly minimizes this issue.
Annealing is generally done before slitting, and winding will work it some more. At some point, I would think ultra thin copper foil (by say .250" or .375" wide) would have issues under winding tension if it were relieved too much.
Is it work harden edges or micro abrasion caused by slitting?
I speculated both in my reply to you yesterday.
Having access to an SEM would prove this theory....which I do
I do not see how. Viewing the profile won't tell you what it will cut through during/after winding, or the hardness. I do have access to one, but my pants are probably not as fancy as yours.
Have you ever been in a converting plant?
I assumed I'd go all my life without someone asking me that... I HAVE! :o :lol: A friend of my uncle took me on a tour through a PPT plant. The plant was about 10 miles from my uncles home in Niles, IL. My uncle was an engineer at Grumman. His encouragement influenced my major 35 years ago.
BTW, what does that have to do with copper foil shorting thru 50ga FEP? While we are nitpicking (well half of us anyway...), what did you mean by, "Are the V-cap copper/Teflon caps actually Teflon? or perhaps PTFE or FEP" PTFE and FEP are Teflon. What fluorinated copolymer are you referring to?
What about a slitter or metalizer? Ever design one or work on one? why yes, yes I have....
I have adjusted a slitter at RelCap. Never designed one. I'm not sure how that worked out for you though. It seems these days you are hanging out trolling audio forums behind the guise of a moniker. As proud as you are, I would think you would want everyone to know exactly who you are. Assuming you are a manufacturer, or have been with one, you still do not have much experience with copper foil and FEP parts. If you find vcaps so interesting, why don't you buy one, and cut it open? You could take it back to your laboratory, and tell us all about it :popcorn: I had the TFTF open 14 years ago when RTI was making them.
At first I thought...Chris...is that you? Then after a little tude and considering 57', I thought...Dan...? But now, I'm thinking Daryl...? In any case this started out with you basically claiming that Eppstein foils was the only game in town... Which it is not. Then, you challenged my "assumption" on a product I said up front I knew nothing about. But, in that, you revealed that you were not aware of a (real) issue with winding copper foil with delicate films that easily cold form. You can drone on, but I'm out :wink:
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Man, Y'all can piss some long streams! ;)
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If I understand this correctly - for the S7 you would need a 10 & 15 for each speaker to replace the 2 Sonicaps?
What about the 56uf cap in the circuit?
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Annealing is generally done before slitting, and winding will work it some more. At some point, I would think ultra thin copper foil (by say .250" or .375" wide) would have issues under winding tension if it were relieved too much.
I speculated both in my reply to you yesterday.
I do not see how. Viewing the profile won't tell you what it will cut through during/after winding, or the hardness. I do have access to one, but my pants are probably not as fancy as yours.
I assumed I'd go all my life without someone asking me that... I HAVE! :o :lol: A friend of my uncle took me on a tour through a PPT plant. The plant was about 10 miles from my uncles home in Niles, IL. My uncle was an engineer at Grumman. His encouragement influenced my major 35 years ago.
BTW, what does that have to do with copper foil shorting thru 50ga FEP? While we are nitpicking (well half of us anyway...), what did you mean by, "Are the V-cap copper/Teflon caps actually Teflon? or perhaps PTFE or FEP" PTFE and FEP are Teflon. What fluorinated copolymer are you referring to?
I have adjusted a slitter at RelCap. Never designed one. I'm not sure how that worked out for you though. It seems these days you are hanging out trolling audio forums behind the guise of a moniker. As proud as you are, I would think you would want everyone to know exactly who you are. Assuming you are a manufacturer, or have been with one, you still do not have much experience with copper foil and FEP parts. If you find vcaps so interesting, why don't you buy one, and cut it open? You could take it back to your laboratory, and tell us all about it :popcorn: I had the TFTF open 14 years ago when RTI was making them.
At first I thought...Chris...is that you? Then after a little tude and considering 57', I thought...Dan...? But now, I'm thinking Daryl...? In any case this started out with you basically claiming that Eppstein foils was the only game in town... Which it is not. Then, you challenged my "assumption" on a product I said up front I knew nothing about. But, in that, you revealed that you were not aware of a (real) issue with winding copper foil with delicate films that easily cold form. You can drone on, but I'm out :wink:
Clearly I'm out classes by your knowledge. Chris, Dan, Daryl?
Thin copper dead soft not able to handle tension? Hmm, what about 6.5mm tin lead? Must be old equipment. Winders can handle 0.50 um film at high speeds.
Copper/FEP or PTFE 15 years ago? Little late to the game huh?
If been fun, back to trolling mode
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Annealing is generally done before slitting, and winding will work it some more. At some point, I would think ultra thin copper foil (by say .250" or .375" wide) would have issues under winding tension if it were relieved too much.
I speculated both in my reply to you yesterday.
I do not see how. Viewing the profile won't tell you what it will cut through during/after winding, or the hardness. I do have access to one, but my pants are probably not as fancy as yours.
I assumed I'd go all my life without someone asking me that... I HAVE! :o :lol: A friend of my uncle took me on a tour through a PPT plant. The plant was about 10 miles from my uncles home in Niles, IL. My uncle was an engineer at Grumman. His encouragement influenced my major 35 years ago.
BTW, what does that have to do with copper foil shorting thru 50ga FEP? While we are nitpicking (well half of us anyway...), what did you mean by, "Are the V-cap copper/Teflon caps actually Teflon? or perhaps PTFE or FEP" PTFE and FEP are Teflon. What fluorinated copolymer are you referring to?
I have adjusted a slitter at RelCap. Never designed one. I'm not sure how that worked out for you though. It seems these days you are hanging out trolling audio forums behind the guise of a moniker. As proud as you are, I would think you would want everyone to know exactly who you are. Assuming you are a manufacturer, or have been with one, you still do not have much experience with copper foil and FEP parts. If you find vcaps so interesting, why don't you buy one, and cut it open? You could take it back to your laboratory, and tell us all about it :popcorn: I had the TFTF open 14 years ago when RTI was making them.
At first I thought...Chris...is that you? Then after a little tude and considering 57', I thought...Dan...? But now, I'm thinking Daryl...? In any case this started out with you basically claiming that Eppstein foils was the only game in town... Which it is not. Then, you challenged my "assumption" on a product I said up front I knew nothing about. But, in that, you revealed that you were not aware of a (real) issue with winding copper foil with delicate films that easily cold form. You can drone on, but I'm out :wink:
To prevent and additional mindless drivel or ego bashing, contact me directly.
Sincerely
Capman1957 (38 years in the industry...and counting)