Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?

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Elizabeth

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Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« on: 3 Aug 2018, 02:23 pm »
In the Bryston thread about powerconditioner and amps, I wondered if the amp will 'clip' with weak AC power FASTER or at lower wattage, than if the amp has all the AC power from the wall it can possibly use?
Does anyone know IS THIS TRUE?
My gut instinct says yeah, with not enough power the amp would start to distort sooner. and clip sooner. but gut is not science. so is it true?

Mag

Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #1 on: 3 Aug 2018, 04:47 pm »
For me the use of a power conditioner was night & day difference. The bass had weight behind it and the rest of the sound spectrum improved as well. With a constant power draw of 120 volts my speakers don't lag.

Clipping an amp IMO is from hot recordings, distortion in recording or pushing an amp beyond its RMS power rating.

With my amps I occasionally have thermal shutdown when I'm playing a prolonged intense song at too high spl. The amps are not clipping just getting hot from working hard reproducing detailed bass. Of coarse the speakers are getting hot too, which is why you need a durable speaker if you play music at higher than normal spl. :smoke:

twitch54

Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #2 on: 3 Aug 2018, 07:58 pm »
For me the use of a power conditioner was night & day difference. The bass had weight behind it and the rest of the sound spectrum improved as well. With a constant power draw of 120 volts my speakers don't lag.

please explain the above, it really doesn't make much sense IMO ?? are you confusing a power regenerator with a power conditioner ? two different beasts I do believe.

Mag

Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #3 on: 3 Aug 2018, 08:11 pm »
please explain the above, it really doesn't make much sense IMO ?? are you confusing a power regenerator with a power conditioner ? two different beasts I do believe.

Monster AVS 2000 Automatic Voltage Stabilizer

YoungDave

Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #4 on: 4 Aug 2018, 05:08 am »
"In the Bryston thread about powerconditioner and amps, I wondered if the amp will 'clip' with weak AC power FASTER or at lower wattage, than if the amp has all the AC power from the wall it can possibly use?
Does anyone know IS THIS TRUE?"

Yes, it is true that an amp will clip at a lower output if the power line is weak.  Likewise, a really large amplifier can draw down the line voltage when operating at full power, making it clip well below the specified power output.  Testing an amplifier properly always requires monitoring the line voltage, and usually requires taking steps to maintain the standard operating line voltage.

Because the amplifier runs on rectified utility power, if the power line voltage sags, the amp's DC rails, which provide the power to the output devices, will drop.  The amp's output can never exceed the voltage of the positive and negative rails; if it is driven to the point that the peaks of the signal exceed the rail voltage, that signal will go no higher ("clip") than that rail voltage.  We conservatively call clipping at 1% THD, but we often fail to realize that the added spurious harmonic content is simply the result of the degraded waveform when its peak is clipped.

You can easily test this with a variac, sine wave generator, and oscilloscope.

Cheers,
YDY

richidoo

Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #5 on: 4 Aug 2018, 07:03 am »
"All voltage gain stages have regulated power supplies,"    from:  https://hometheaterreview.com/bryston-14b3-stereo-amplifier-reviewed/

With a regulated power supply, normal line sag should not affect amp performance. "Weak AC" should be reported to your utility for repair. They are required by regulators to deliver a standard of service.

This gives details on what the voltage should be. 114 is the lowest normal voltage allowed, while 110 is allowed in infrequent emergency. 120V is nominal.

Elizabeth

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Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #6 on: 4 Aug 2018, 12:42 pm »
Thanks YoungDave, that was a great answer to the question.  :D

twitch54

Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #7 on: 4 Aug 2018, 12:57 pm »
Thanks YoungDave, that was a great answer to the question.  :D

x2

twitch54

Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #8 on: 4 Aug 2018, 01:02 pm »
Monster AVS 2000 Automatic Voltage Stabilizer

gotcha, much more than a 'power conditioner'. I guess I equate power conditioning with passive products like Shunyata Denali for example.

YoungDave

Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #9 on: 4 Aug 2018, 03:17 pm »
You are welcome, Elizabeth.

BTW, although a regulated voltage gain stage will be relatively unaffected by power line droop, the voltage gain stage is not the only gain stage in the amplifier - there is a power gain stage, i.e., the output devices, and they would still reach clipping at a lower output level if the line voltage drops - and, with a large power amp running hard, the line voltage will drop, unless one is running large wire on a high-power circuit, say, 10-gauge wires in a 20-amp circuit.

However, I cannot conceive of any real-world musical listening experience that will cause an amp to use that much average power, and I do not think (though I have not tested this) that millisecond-long peaks of max power would create line droop - those peaks are easily driven from the reservoir storage capacitors in the power supply.  In my crazy youth, I listened at loud enough levels to observe incandescent lights dim and brighten in time with the music - this was line droop. it was the power amp doing this, and, most specifically, the power-gain stage of the power amp.  But that was VERY loud in very inefficient AR loudspeakers.

It is interesting to note that in musical instrument amplifiers, of which I have seen many and all of which measure poorly as hi-fi amps, power droop is often seen as a good thing - the "sponginess" of the DC supply, either coming from a tube rectifier or a heavily-loaded diode (with but little storage capacity) gives the amp some of its flavor.  In musicians' world, the amp & its flavor are part of the instrument, and are not a reproduction tool as in our world.

Cheers!

Elizabeth

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Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #10 on: 4 Aug 2018, 03:48 pm »
I would think some folks who experience 'brown outs' might get effects. Also plenty of folks mention certain times of day the stereo sounds 'better'.
Some of this certainly might be due to voltage drop. or normal voltage availability?

Pundamilia

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Re: Amp clipping: earlier with weak AC from wall?
« Reply #11 on: 5 Aug 2018, 05:12 am »
This situation might cause such a brownout: