Newbie Question - Can higher fidelity data overdrive a DAC

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Elizabeth

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Re: Newbie Question - Can higher fidelity data overdrive a DAC
« Reply #20 on: 15 Feb 2020, 10:34 pm »
What does "over driven" mean? 

DAC's voltage output should be a constant  so regardless of your media's format nothing should change here.
The voltage of the audio equipment outputs is not constant at any analog audio output The voltage change with the level of the music being passed.. IT is rather compex, but straightforward in that the measured total voltage swing is directly related to the loudness as a percentage of what is the largest voltage (loudness) possible.
Input devices can EASILY be overloaded by too large a voltage (ie audio signal) Thus some devices particularly DIGITAL outputs to analog.. with the 2 volt (professional gear) standard vs the old analog (consumer) 0.5 volt standard And since a balanced connection doubles that votage... and some digital devices actually output as much as SIX VOLTS at max... No wonder some other analog device inputs get overloaded.

Added and one big plus of an optical connection is there is no overload. The intake device has it's own voltage levels and not dependent on or related to the electrical voltage of the sender device, aside from recreating the audio.. So it is rather immune for the 'overloading; aspect of connecting equipment.
The DIGITAL signal may be digitally 'over' loaded being over 100% of the digtal maximum. even a little creates a lot of distortion (so I read, I have never experienced this, so it is just speculation)

viggen

Re: Newbie Question - Can higher fidelity data overdrive a DAC
« Reply #21 on: 17 Feb 2020, 01:08 am »
The voltage of the audio equipment outputs is not constant at any analog audio output The voltage change with the level of the music being passed.. IT is rather compex, but straightforward in that the measured total voltage swing is directly related to the loudness as a percentage of what is the largest voltage (loudness) possible.
Input devices can EASILY be overloaded by too large a voltage (ie audio signal) Thus some devices particularly DIGITAL outputs to analog.. with the 2 volt (professional gear) standard vs the old analog (consumer) 0.5 volt standard And since a balanced connection doubles that votage... and some digital devices actually output as much as SIX VOLTS at max... No wonder some other analog device inputs get overloaded.

Added and one big plus of an optical connection is there is no overload. The intake device has it's own voltage levels and not dependent on or related to the electrical voltage of the sender device, aside from recreating the audio.. So it is rather immune for the 'overloading; aspect of connecting equipment.
The DIGITAL signal may be digitally 'over' loaded being over 100% of the digtal maximum. even a little creates a lot of distortion (so I read, I have never experienced this, so it is just speculation)

I get what you're saying but in OP's scenario, voltage output is a constant means that it is a known variable rather than it being dependent on the OP's Tidal subscription level.

Tangent.  This thread got me to upgrade my Tidal to the $20 per month from the $10.  Music seems smoother/calmer, slightly bit more swing and sway... more enjoyable.  Relaxing. = D

TechSgtChen

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Re: Newbie Question - Can higher fidelity data overdrive a DAC
« Reply #22 on: 18 Feb 2020, 02:59 am »
Thanks everyone, this is on PC (Surface Pro 5) using USB.

I've simply downgraded to the Tidal Premium membership and saved the $10/mo.

There's a Schiit meetup this Spring in Phoenix and I'm going to ask those Schiit heads if they have any good explanation.

MQA should only unfold to "better than CD quality" and be handled by the DAC but some crazy stuff may also be happening too.

Sounds good without it and cheaper - bonus!

dB Cooper

Re: Newbie Question - Can higher fidelity data overdrive a DAC
« Reply #23 on: 18 Feb 2020, 07:34 pm »
I think I know what is happening- and, if so, your ‘overload’ metaphor is closer than you think. I have personal experience with Tidal and the Modi 2 and the Modi Multibit. But IME the problem isn’t the DAC.

Assuming you are using the Tidal app on a computer (I use a Mac but that is not important to what follows), open the app and look at the volume control setting within the Tidal app.

If it is all the way up (to the right), which is the default, there is your problem. You might (as I did) assume that full volume on a digital slider would provide unity gain (one of my player apps actually states this), but you’d be wrong. The Tidal app (along with many other audio apps) actually applies gain at maximum volume setting, whic results in clipping on loud passages. I discovered this after installing SoundSource on my Mac. This app has small meters that change color when the signal clips. Clipping is bad and will sound bad, and you will notice immediately once it is gone.  If the audio is clipping, there is indeed no benefit to the ‘hi-fi’ upgrade.

Fortunately this problem isn’t that hard to fix- its just that nobody seems to know about it. For those who use a Mac, buy Rogue Amoeba Sound Source ($20). Play an album with really loud peaks (Chick Corea’s Trilogy works well) (another good candidate would be the infamous Telarc 1812 cannons) and adjust the volume down until the meters stop turning red on the loudest passages. This will actually be about 2/3 of the way up on the slider.  NOTE, selecting the DAC as the output device grays out the System volume adjustment so you must set the source app correctly. Reducing the volume downstream doesn't 'un-clip' a clipped source. Since it is a question of levels and not bitrates, downgrading the bitrate wouldn't fix the problem either.

If you use a Windows machine, you’ll need to do a little research to find the appropriate software to accomplish the same thing. What you need is probably a VST metering plugin that incorporates some type of clipping indicator. You need it to sample the output of the player or streamer app directly. I'm sure there is something on the Windows platform that does something similar to soundSource or AudioHijack. Set the meter to 'Peak' mode and experiment as described above.

I have found that virtually all digital music apps with their own volume controls have this problem - both streamers and players. Only VLC has a little tick mark on their volume slider denoting unity gain. On a player app, you can also play a calibrated test tone through a metering plugin to accomplish calibration. Streaming apps are a little more challenging to set.

I think you’ll find, as I did, that a signal that isn’t clipping sounds better than one that is, and that once the real problem is solved, the hi-fi stream will reveal itself as a worthwhile improvement on quality recordings. My Modi Multibit sounded like a whole different animal after getting things right. Garbage in, garbage out.

I wonder how much business the lossless streaming services are losing due to people not actually getting the SQ they’re paying for. Clipping by definition isn't 'lossless'. I see debates about which streaming service does the best job delivering the exact same digital file to your DAC. I also wonder how much money gets spent on faulty solutions. This problem came up in another thread, and the OP was inundated with suggestions about which magic USB cable to buy. Solving the clipping will be much more effective at lower cost. Ever hear someone say that digital in general (or streaming in particular), sounds ‘hard’? I wonder if this could be why in some cases?

dB Cooper

Re: Newbie Question - Can higher fidelity data overdrive a DAC
« Reply #24 on: 18 Feb 2020, 08:07 pm »
Also where does MQA end at the DAC when you don't have a DAC that decodes MQA?

Am I limited to a specific quality without a DAC that can decode MQA?

MQA is decoded in the Tidal player app and plays just fine through my Modi Multibit, which does not support MQA natively.

One other thing I omitted from my long-winded dissertation: Some apps can actually control the MIDI settings and change them 'on the fly' based on the file and output device. Tidal is one and I recommend enabling this.BUT, solve the clipping first!

TechSgtChen

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Re: Newbie Question - Can higher fidelity data overdrive a DAC
« Reply #25 on: 18 Feb 2020, 09:51 pm »
I think you’ll find, as I did, that a signal that isn’t clipping sounds better than one that is, and that once the real problem is solved, the hi-fi stream will reveal itself as a worthwhile improvement on quality recordings. My Modi Multibit sounded like a whole different animal after getting things right. Garbage in, garbage out.

This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for.

Thanks for your suggestion.

My question to you would be: wouldn't the Tidal app also overdrive and clip for any source file? Or do you think it only applies for MQA source files?

dB Cooper

Re: Newbie Question - Can higher fidelity data overdrive a DAC
« Reply #26 on: 19 Feb 2020, 12:00 am »
I don't think it matters. The DAC chip used has an actual resolution of 16 bits. (I looked up the mfr data sheet). Anything beyond that is dithered. That's actually more than enough, if you do the same for most '24 bit' chips, you'll see a spec of 20 bits. Thing is, if the signal is already clipped when it enters the DAC, the DAC can't interpret any of the clipped information- it's lost. MQA, by the way, is a lossy codec with a resolution of 17 bits.

Once I got this straightened out, I found a significant improvement in SQ and no difference between locally stored and streamed playback. Someone whose 'daily driver' is Windows will be able to give you more help on how to do it on that system though. You'll like what you hear when you get it set up properly. As I said, I'm amazed that the players/apps/developers don't provide better info. Their livelihood depends on getting you the best SQ you can get.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Newbie Question - Can higher fidelity data overdrive a DAC
« Reply #27 on: 19 Feb 2020, 12:07 am »
Good job Cooper.