Breaking the rules

jrebman · « **on:** 7 Oct 2009, 05:04 pm »

It seems I have broken my own rules... I think, bu6t I'm not really sure.

Let me 'splain:

I had been in the market for a pair of the Lowther Alerions with the new DX-65 driver, but once again, a number of factors conspired and I found myself without enough money to be able to afford them, so I was forced to cancel the order.

Then out of the blue another pair of speakers I had always been interested in was out in a new and improved version and when I contacted somebody I knew who had a pair, he just happened to be about ready to list them for sale, so for about half of what the Alerions would have cost me, I got these essentially new speakers that met my requirements for a full range, efficient and affordable speaker I could drive with the low power single-ended amps I prefer.

Enter the Tonian Acoustics TL-D1 Mk. IIs. These are a single 8" Fostex wideband driver paired with a modified ribbon tweeter, and *some sort* of crossover. So, why am I breaking the rules? Because there are no details on where the crossover frequency is, or how elaborate the crossover is, and the builder of the speaker wants to keep it that way. Frankly, I don't even care as these have to be the most dynamic, transparent and lovely sounding speakers I've ever heard in my home. They have plenty of bass on their own and need no sub reinforcement as far as I'm concerned. The highs go on forever and are smooth and non-fatiguing -- a miracle for a ribbon tweeter if you ask me. And perhaps the best part is that the integration of the ribbon and main driver is absolutely seamless and it appears to be as much of a point source as any single driver speaker I've owned.

This speaker seems to break lots of "rules" -- it has a tuned, lightweight cabinet, is of a semi-open box construction, has a crossover, integrates a ribbon and cone driver perfectly and never shouts or booms at you.

So, how much do I like these? So much so that I am selling off all other speakers and other gear and whittling down to a single system in my semi-dedicated listening room.

Yes, that means the F-120A Fonkens, the Horns that I just put months and lots of dollars into tweaking, the Cube, probably a dac or two, and parts for the other amps that were to be for the second system -- all so that I can pursue a world-class dac and dht amp for the Tonians.

Sorry, keeping the Carina as it too sounds very nice with the Tonians and is more than enough power for it.

So, alll the dead-cabinet, crossoovers are evil and suck the life out of the music crowd, take note. I'm a very critical listener and these are the most alive, most dynamically natural, most evenly balanced speakers I've ever owned, and all indications are that they are also the most efficient as my volume knob appears to be at least a full clock number down for the same level of presentation.

The only more naturally dynamic speakers I've heard are front-loaded horns, and I don't have the room or money for a good pair of those, so the Tonians are here to stay.

-- Jim

roscoeiii · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 05:32 pm »

Thanks for the post, especially since these speakers seem to capture exactly the things that draw so many people to full-range drivers. Enjoy your new babies!

santacore · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 05:47 pm »

A friend heard these recently and his experience mirrors yours. If they were cheaper and easier to drive I'd be all over these.

jrebman · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:03 pm »

John,

Easier to drive? Many folks have found that a 2 watt 45 is plenty. I'm currently using a 3 watt single-ended el84and I can't imagine turning it more than 3 o'clock on very low recording level source material. Typically I'm between 8:00 and 1:30 depending on how loud the recording and how loud I want to listen.

I also ran my amp in triode mode -- 1.6 watts and if it weren't for the loss of bass articulation (which I neglected to mention is incredible) and the rolled off highs, it too would be enough for 95% of my listening.

I could see having some issues with something like an SE 12b4a or a headphone amp, but other than that, we must be talking about different speakers. .

Right now I'm listening to Jorma's Blue Country Heart, the volume knob is at 11:30, the source is an EE Minimax CD player, and it is loud, clear, wonderfully alive, and as close as I've heard in my space to live.

-- Jim
The stated sensitivity is 95 dB, but I swear it's more than that.

-- Jim

chadh · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:04 pm »

They sound sweet, Jim.

I wonder how they compare to the Sonist floorstanders, which have similar specifications and construction:

http://www.sonist.com/SONIST_PRODUCTS.html#ProdC3

Chad

jrebman · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:17 pm »

Chad,

I have no idea, but the price is higher for one -- at least for the floorstander, which is what I wanted.

Also Tony Manasian basically guts the fontech ribbon unit and rebuilds it to his proprietary formula.

I have never liked ribbon tweeters, and getting one to integrate seamlessly with a cone is not a trivial task, and as you can tell, I like this one

.

-- Jim

srb · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:18 pm »

I thought I'd find out a little more about these speakers, so I went to the website www.tonianlabs.com.

I found the speakers with a few sparse specs, but no description, pricing or anything else. I then went to the Dealers link, and found 4 links - 3 to vendors of Supra cables, and 1 to Tone Mesa Audio (Supra Cables (Pro), Tonian Acoustic) whose web link was apparently to a Supra page (www.tonemesa.com/supra).

That page was not found (404), so here I sat on the "ToneMesa - Eco Minded Media Production" site with no avenue to take, that I could see.

I came away with the impression they weren't real serious about selling their speakers.

Steve

P.S. I have always liked ribbon tweeters.

jrebman · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:25 pm »

Steve,

Yes, by looking at your system I can see why you'd like ribbons.

Yes, the web site is very out of date, but you deal with Tony directly if you want his speakers as there really is no dealer network.

-- Jim

bluemike · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:26 pm »

Quote from: srb on 7 Oct 2009, 06:18 pm

I thought I'd find out a little more about these speakers, so I went to the website www.tonianlabs.com.

I found the speakers with a few sparse specs, but no description, pricing or anything else. I then went to the Dealers link, and found 4 links - 3 to vendors of Supra cables, and 1 to Tone Mesa Audio (Supra Cables (Pro), Tonian Acoustic) whose web link was apparently to a Supra page (www.tonemesa.com/supra).

That page was not found (404), so here I sat on the ToneMesa - "Eco Minded Media Production" site with no avenue to take, that I could see.

I came away with the impression they weren't real serious about selling their speakers.

Steve

P.S. I have always liked ribbon tweeters.

Lets just say Tony spends his time on improving his designs rather then working on his websight
There's no denying the fact his speakers are very good and a steal for what he charges imo

srb · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:29 pm »

So, what does he charge and where does one audition them or buy them?

Steve

bluemike · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:33 pm »

Quote from: srb on 7 Oct 2009, 06:29 pm

So, what does he charge and where does one audition them or buy them?

Steve

When I bought my speakers from him I bought them unheard
if you are local you can drop by and hear them for yourself

jrebman · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:37 pm »

There is one place you can audition them if you are in the L.A. area, and his contact info, including telephone number is on the web site.

He offers a trial period and they aren't too heavy to ship at reasonable cost. Other than that, he may be able to put you in touch with somebody in your area.

Price is: $2500, the finish work is beautiful, and I believe shipping is included, but not sure about that.

-- Jim

P.S. -- He no longer sells the kit he mentions on the product page.

santacore · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 07:12 pm »

Jim,

I was told that the designer recommends using them with high power solid state amps. Since I run low powered tube amps I thought I'd be out of luck. Great to hear they're working well with your gear. One of these days I'm going to drop by over there since it's close by.

John

srb · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 07:25 pm »

Been doing a little more digging, reading some reviews, etc. Although the crossover frequency is "undisclosed", I have to think it would be well beyond the critical midrange, likely between 6KHz and 12KHz.

I was also looking at the PHY equipped model (TL-M1 MKII), although I haven't read any reviews yet. My, my, those PHY's are some pricey drivers! And I'm sure the finished speaker would be too pricey for me, but just curious if anyone has heard them or owns them?

Steve

jrebman · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 07:46 pm »

John,

I'm sure you'd get more ultimate punch with the SS amp, and I know at least one guy who decided to go that route as well, but in my small space I'm more than satisfied with a couple of watts. If you go, take your checkbook

.

Steve, I think those big guys are close to $40k -- maybe a little less,. I only know one person who's heard theem along with the d1s and while they are obviously better, he said he didn't think the price differential was worth it -- but of course he was speaking for himself.

-- Jim

srb · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 08:02 pm »

Oops! I thought with an $1800 driver instead of a $100 driver, and a larger cabinet, we would just add $4K - $5K onto the pair. My bad.

Steve

dspringham · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 11:11 pm »

Jim,

Good choice on these speakers. I also just recently took delivery of a pair (in Canada).

Bought them sight unseen and unheard - purchase decision based (for the most part) on the comments of Paul Folbrecht (posting on Audiogon I think) who has had considerable previous experience with single driver systems including Beahorn and Lamhorn.

Paul has a formal review of the TL-D1's posted on Audio Asylum in the Hi Efficiency speaker forum (also linked via the Tonian Labs website "Customer Comments").

I may not be ready to sell my Harbeth SHL5's quite yet but the TL-D1's sound very good indeed. I was looking for something with a little more immediacy and openess after selling my Zu Audio Druids in favour of the Harbeths. The Tonian's definately fill the bill - great dynamics, "box-free" openess, nice tonality and very natural voicing. I'm using a iMac/itunes via Toslink > Monarchy 24bit/96 upconverter (SPDIF output) > Monarchy NM24 DAC > Bent Audio Tap-X Slagle Autoformer volume control > Dignity Audio 300b monblocks > TL-D1's.

I bought the Tonian speakers new and was initially concerned about my decision because right out of the box for the number of days/hours they did not impress - constrained highs and closed-in sounding. After an initial settling-in period they did actually 'snap-in" and open up. Really enjoying them now and looking forward to trying them with my Bottlehead Paramount II 2a3 kits which I hope to build over the long, dark and cold winter which is undoubtably on it's ay here to Canada.

Jim, your comments regarding these speakers re right on the money and I think they represent great value (even though their list price has recently gone up). For someone looking for a sound with all of the attributes of single-driver/crossoverless speakers (presence, coherence, high efficiency) without the pitfalls (peakiness/shoutiness, limited bandwidth) the Tonian TL-D1's are a great alternative.

By the way, I am using a Gallo TR-1 sub ti fill-in below 40 hz. and it sounds great.

Look forward to hearing more comments about these "sleepers".

Regards,
Dave

DaveC113 · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 11:57 pm »

Interesting... I was just going to start a thread on what multi-way speakers "do it" for those who appreciate the qualities of single driver speakers. After spending a day at RMAF, there are several, but an incredibly depressing majority of multi-way speakers don't "do it". I've also never heard a pair of multi-way speakers for under $10k that I liked.

Anyway, my "gold star" goes to Merlin Speakers. They have been at RMAF the last 3 years and always stand out. While not cheap at $11k, there are monitors available for 1/3 of that price that will sound as coherent, but the floorstanders are simply amazing. SOLID BASS down past 30 Hz with a Joule OPT-less tube amp, perfect driver integration, and an easy to drive 89 dB sensitivity make this my top choice. The only issue might be the 7-8 wpc amp I have might not be quite enough power....

While I'd trade these Merlins for my single drivers, they are 10x the price if I found a used pair to buy for 1/2 of retail. Maybe someday...

Another gold star has to go to Feastrex and the Lotus Group. They made a beautiful hardwood OB speaker with 2 15" woofers per side x-ed over around 200 Hz using a custom digital x-over. The Feastrex drivers used were $37k / pair and the speakers went for about $120k. It seems likely I'll never own these speakers, but they may be be the best speakers I've ever demo'ed. I was absolutely blown away by how much better these sounded compared to the horn cabinets they've had the last 2 years.

So yeah.... single drivers might not be the holy grail, but you need some serious cash to do better, both for the speakers and for the amplification.

jrebman · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 Oct 2009, 12:04 am »

Dave,

Thanks for your post. I've been sitting here listening this afternoon and trying to decide whether a 2a3 or 300b would work better with these, so I'll be waiting to hear what you have to say when your paramounts are done. Are those paramounts or paramours? I've been looking seriously at the paramounts but also waiting to see what the new Stereomour turns out to be. PJ says the new iron will be much better than the paramours, it will be a one bocx integrated, and can be built for 45s or 2a3s.

The one negative things these have done is point out a midrange room node that I have to deal with, but that has been planned all along eveen before I got the Tonians.

BTW, I talked with Paul a lot and when I asked him how they compared to my would-be one day reference, the Lamhorns, he said that he liked these better. Looks like I just saved myself a lot of money and the Lamhorns would be no picnic to ship if I didn't like how they sounded in my setup.

I am liking the Carina a lot now after a tube change that I did yesterday, but I still hear DHTs calling me

.

-- Jim

roscoeiii · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 Oct 2009, 12:07 am »

Dave,

For our reference, what full-range drivers are you using?

In the same spirit of disclosure, I'm using the Audio Nirvana 12" stamped driver, which while it does may not approach the lusciousness of other full-range drivers (thinking Fostex 206E here) on acoustic material, does a great job with a range of music from reggae/rap to Radiohead to metal. And still sounds great on jazz recordings as well.