[Folsom]

The fact that it will dominate any room isn't helpful.

[jarcher]

Yeah, the author of that article has been obsolete for the 10 years, and rightly so. There's a new type of audiophile that doesn't derive their information from a customer service rep at a B&M store -- they get it the same way we do -- from the internet through forums like audiocircle. There are tons of lurkers who research and learn from our mistakes and successes, but you'd never know they exist. Someone is buying good gear. That's how the internet dealers are staying in business. So if the obsolete dude wants to stay relevant and continue with his passion of educating people about all things audio, he needs to join AC. We'd love to pick his brain. Maybe one of his grandchildren could show him how to log on.   

I think you should show a bit more respect to "obsolete dude".  He spent decades gaining experience and trying to carefully guide customers towards better purchases, most likely at substandard pay, because he loved the industry, his job, and his customers.  And now you want him to just join an internet forum in what little time he has left - or in his retirement - and give you advice for free?

I think that's all part of the systematic devaluing of the sales professional in the US market.  What people seems to be saying with their wallet is that they value the lowest cost, most convenient sales experience over service (i.e. advice and after sales assistance).  It's a downward spiral : we place less importance on it, we get less of it, and then we have the gall to complain & proclaim the death of B&M!

And part of the fuel for this is the rise of "internet experts", "forums" and online reviews, which is a cheap but poor substitute.

Personally I'd more value - and be willing to pay for - the assistance of someone who has decades of actual experience, is face to face with me with a reputation to uphold, and can make a custom recommendation to me vs. "online experts" shilling either their own product purchases or regurgitating comments from a handful of "netizens" or paid off audio "journalists".

I'll give you one prime example : we keep a famous monitor speaker at the store which is on every audio journalists "best" list - and which people parrot endlessly as such an excellent speaker.  We get requests for it and I was tired of people thinking I was trying to "switch and bait" them by telling them that it is in fact a crap speaker - the "bose" of the audiophile world.  So now I just let them come in and listen to it & say nothing.  Invariably they ask to listen to an alternative, and when they do, they end up buying the alternative, unprompted by me.  When they want to know more, I explain.  To date over more than 2 years we've sold a grand total of zero of this vaunted speaker.  But you would never know that from forums and hifi reviews. It's always amusing to see peoples faces : "this thing kinda sucks - but I don't understand, everyone says it's great!".

I've personally gained a lot of useful information on AC - and hopefully imparted some as well.  But there is no substitute for real experience - both from sales professionals and your own (i.e. trying and listening).  This experience is valuable and worth paying for.

What happened to Hi-Fi in the US: people don't value or care about high quality sales & service, and there's been a race to the bottom in terms of sound quality for the sake of economy and convenience, at least in the US.  This is why first the big boxes, and now the internet aka Amazon have taken over.  I believe this has happened to a much lesser extent in other countries, so hopefully we won't export that trend as well.  To a much larger degree in Europe and Asia I think they more highly value hifi AND the smaller independent sales outlets and professionals. Have you seen how many more hifi shops there are per capita in the UK, for example? They still develop and value sales relationships.  They have "their guy" whom they've come to trust and rely on. These markets, more so than the US, are what's keeping the high end audio market afloat. 

How to address this in the US?  Ironically for the high end I think manufacturers need to concentrate their efforts on LESS locations and focus on a shorter list of select brick and mortar stores and makes these "centers of excellence" for their brands vs trying to spread themselves thinner across more internet and big box stores in the desperate attempt to reach more customers.  It's always a sign to me that they've given up when I see famous audiophile brands go to Best Buy - even if it's the somewhat better Magnolia (at a few of which I've actually found knowledgeable sales people). And Amazon?  Total surrender.

People who value face to face quality sales professionalism will seek these places out and make the greater effort to go to them. When your looking to spend thousands, that's what you SHOULD do. Those who are a bit more lazy : phone consultations and mail order to these B&Ms.

Result : the high end audio companies can therefore devote more time and attention to cultivating a smaller number of channels and see that they are successful.  Doing so means the B&M store can also have more volume and be a more sustainable business.  Eventually if all goes well, this may eventually allow more space for more local stores to thrive. But the way things are going now, I think it's time to consolidate and reinforce the best vs spreading out to the worst!

Let's face it : in the US, high end audio is more than ever a luxury hobby for a diminishing and aging client base.  Do as other luxury goods makers do : focus on select higher end physical sales outlets.  Those places need to be open to cultivating a younger less affluent customer base, but focus on surviving by catering to their base.

Sorry guys : "internet audiophiles" brought them on themselves. They think they know everything, and it's price, but know the value of nothing. Enjoy now stumbling around in the dark - you won't even notice the lights are off!

How's that for a good ol fashioned rant?

[Russell Dawkins]

I can't get past Marc Silver's sloppy reasoning, bad grammar and misspellings. For example:
para 4 – ‘Thornes”?
para 8 – no such thing as ‘square wave rise time’.
para 9 – ‘Sal Marnatz’? (Saul Marantz), ‘Stu Hegaman’ (Hegeman).
para 10 – ‘Marchisoto’ (Marchisotto), ‘Dahquist’ (Dahlquist).
para 17 – ‘there isn’t (aren’t) enough people….that (who) love the hobby….and (are?) willing, etc., etc.
para 18 – ‘people that (who) want music…’
parap 19 – p-mount cartridges date from the 80’s not 90's (Audio Technica)

[DaveC113]

I think that's all part of the systematic devaluing of the sales professional in the US market.  What people seems to be saying with their wallet is that they value the lowest cost, most convenient sales experience over service (i.e. advice and after sales assistance).  It's a downward spiral : we place less importance on it, we get less of it, and then we have the gall to complain & proclaim the death of B&M!

And part of the fuel for this is the rise of "internet experts", "forums" and online reviews, which is a cheap but poor substitute.

Personally I'd more value - and be willing to pay for - the assistance of someone who has decades of actual experience, is face to face with me with a reputation to uphold, and can make a custom recommendation to me vs. "online experts" shilling either their own product purchases or regurgitating comments from a handful of "netizens" or paid off audio "journalists".


How's that for a good ol fashioned rant?

I worked as a sales person at a big box store when I was ~19-21, I was one of the best sales people in the nation, won 3rd prize in a nationwide sales contest... and was around when there were two B&M HiFi stores on Boulder's Pearl Street. The sales professional you value is rare and you're really not that likely to luck into meeting one. You're MUCH more likely to meet someone with less overall experience than you have who will try to sell you whatever they make the most commission on.

Also, where's the empathy for the folks who simply can't afford to go drop a bunch of cash at a dealer? Or know enough that they don't value a sales professional? Now these folks have the opportunity to buy gear for much less money by going with direct-sale companies. 

The fact there's a lot less B&M stores than there used to be is more a result of economic conditions, people who have the income still generally shop at B&M stores but the unfortunate truth is there was this huge crash in '07-'08 and we haven't recovered, and income disparity is at ridiculous, unsustainable levels. I heard about 60 people control 50% of the entire world's wealth. Our middle class isn't doing as well as it used to be. Most of what you rant about is a result of this, and not the fact people don't want to go to a dealer where they can actually see and hear stuff before they buy it.  The truth is dealers make more than manufacturers on gear these days, they are middle men who offer a very valuable service but it's not cheap and there's no doubt that a direct-sale company can offer to sell you a similar product for 1/3rd the price.   

[James Tanner]

HI Folks,

I should point out that there is not as much savings in direct sales as one might assume. 

I know a number of direct sales companies and have discussed the 'cost of sales' on the balance sheet.  To run a 'successful' direct sales company takes a lot of money on the sales side.  Advertising and promotional costs run much higher than a typical B&M market strategy because you have to get your name out there and establish a quality reputation constantly.  One of the ways many of the direct companies save manufacturing costs is they go 'off shore' and are essentially only marketing companies not manufacturers. This approach has in the past been a good saving but that is changing with the cost of transportation and the rise of the middle class in these countries. Just because something appears to be a real value (cheaper) than another product is not always true as the quality of that value is unknown. I think its important that we try and keep our jobs here in North America and hopefully enough customers recognize the reality of this race to the bottom and loosing our manufacturing base is contributing to  the loss of our middle class.

I do feel the lack of qualified sales folks though as I find with the internet and direct phone calls I am in much more communication with our customers and some of the feedback I get from things they are told by sales people about our product is almost laughable. So I get the feeling that when customers do go into their local hifi shop and find they know more than the sales person about a specific product all respect is lost. The biggest complaint I get from our customers is they ask to hear a Bryston product and are told NO - this is better - bad move!

The race to the bottom and disposable products is a real concern of mine though and I fear we are past the tipping point.

james

[Early B.]

I think you should show a bit more respect to "obsolete dude".  He spent decades gaining experience and trying to carefully guide customers towards better purchases, most likely at substandard pay, because he loved the industry, his job, and his customers.  And now you want him to just join an internet forum in what little time he has left - or in his retirement - and give you advice for free?

"Obsolete" (his words, not mine) dude's monetary value to a consumer is zero, and that's what his advice is worth. I'm sure the guy has a lot of knowledge, but on forums like AC, we can literally converse with legendary audio designers, acoustics professionals, speaker manufacturers, etc. and gain firsthand knowledge. Obsolete dude can't compete with that. For example, if I have a question or technical issue with any of my gear, including cables, power conditioners, and isolation devices, I can email the guy who designed it and get a response within 24 hours, and it's free.
 

   

[davidavdavid]

As brick and mortar HiFi shops fall more and more off the radar, folks in the know are members of and frequenting online forums and groups to learn as much as they can about a particular product prior to purchase. It comes as no surprise that online sites: Audio Advisor and Music Direct are becoming increasingly popular. Having traveled internationally and popped into more than a few shops in the UK/EU/Asia, I can tell you that the quality of salesmanship and product knowledge has decreased in relative terms. Let's bear in mind that with the Internet so much product and service information is now readily available to consumers, so its not like the salespeople are the gatekeepers anymore.

Having re-settled in the States to Central Ohio, I have learned first hand how slim the pickings are when it comes to shops and how I am going to have to rely for the most part on sites like Audio Advisor and Music Direct. I have also seen with the rising prices, that there is a benefit, if all criteria is met, of dealing with a product manufacturer who sells direct without a dealer network. Subsequently the prices are lower and the consumer comes away with a product they deem to be of equal or better quality and decidedly less expensive than a product laden with the costs of advertising and a dealer network.

Growing up in NYC, in one day for the price of a subway token, I could visit  Stereo Exchange, Innovative Audio, Lyric HiFi, Sound by Singer. I had 4 top notch shops with fellows (there were no women) who knew what they were talking about and would take the time to properly demonstrate gear. These past 4 years living in London, England was a bit of an eye-opener. Although there are a fair number of shops over there, London has morphed, the shops are not easy if at all possible to get to in one day, and they are not particularly subtle about their agendas. Mind you, if you think prices on this side of the Atlantic are high, well, that's another rant entirely

[gene9p]

yup..I miss the walks to those stores as well as 6th Avenue Electronics and even Harvey's. You could spend a day in the city going to those shops and nothing else. Sometimes when the Rangers are playing an afternoon game I walk from Grand Central to MSG and wonder where did they all go.

[DaveC113]

HI Folks,

I should point out that there is not as much savings in direct sales as one might assume. 

I know a number of direct sales companies and have discussed the 'cost of sales' on the balance sheet.  To run a 'successful' direct sales company takes a lot of money on the sales side.  Advertising and promotional costs run much higher than a typical B&M market strategy because you have to get your name out there and establish a quality reputation constantly.  One of the ways many of the direct companies save manufacturing costs is they go 'off shore' and are essentially only marketing companies not manufacturers. This approach has in the past been a good saving but that is changing with the cost of transportation and the rise of the middle class in these countries. Just because something appears to be a real value (cheaper) than another product is not always true as the quality of that value is unknown. I think its important that we try and keep our jobs here in North America and hopefully enough customers recognize the reality of this race to the bottom and loosing our manufacturing base is contributing to  the loss of our middle class.

james

I don't think that applies to any of the direct-sale companies here on AC. At least, it doesn't to me. I spend very little on ads and promotions, and everything is made by me. Also, dealer-sale businesses often outsource too, like PS Audio and many others. The one thing I'll agree with is the sales end of direct-sale businesses is half the work, it's often underestimated and it's often handeled poorly. Running a direct-sale business is a great way to appreciate dealers and what they do, and going forward I'll be starting a company that sells to dealers.

And James, you don't really have to worry about competition w/ direct-sale companies like Odyssey, etc. because the markets are pretty much totally separate. Products overlap but VERY few people cross-shop traditional dealer-offered goods with direct-sale goods. Some do, but it's VERY rare. The big thing is that the folks who buy from dealers have more and more cash so I think it's wise to keep up with the market and offer them products that fit their budget. Bryston has the name to make a big coffee-table sized amplifier for $100k+

[jarcher]

I worked as a sales person at a big box store when I was ~19-21, I was one of the best sales people in the nation, won 3rd prize in a nationwide sales contest... and was around when there were two B&M HiFi stores on Boulder's Pearl Street. The sales professional you value is rare and you're really not that likely to luck into meeting one. You're MUCH more likely to meet someone with less overall experience than you have who will try to sell you whatever they make the most commission on.

Also, where's the empathy for the folks who simply can't afford to go drop a bunch of cash at a dealer? Or know enough that they don't value a sales professional? Now these folks have the opportunity to buy gear for much less money by going with direct-sale companies. 

The fact there's a lot less B&M stores than there used to be is more a result of economic conditions, people who have the income still generally shop at B&M stores but the unfortunate truth is there was this huge crash in '07-'08 and we haven't recovered, and income disparity is at ridiculous, unsustainable levels. I heard about 60 people control 50% of the entire world's wealth. Our middle class isn't doing as well as it used to be. Most of what you rant about is a result of this, and not the fact people don't want to go to a dealer where they can actually see and hear stuff before they buy it.  The truth is dealers make more than manufacturers on gear these days, they are middle men who offer a very valuable service but it's not cheap and there's no doubt that a direct-sale company can offer to sell you a similar product for 1/3rd the price.

Lots of commonly received misinformation here.

Sales :

- Salespeople WILL have LOTS more experience than you - that's what they do as a living, hours every day for years. You dabble in it in your free time.

They don't have to know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING - they may not even know everything about that specific item you're looking for.  There's a lot of changing product to keep up on.  The most important thing is that they have a good understanding of the important things of the product they carry and whether it's a suitable match for you and your situation. 

That is, if you care to ask & listen of course.  If you go in there with a "I know everything" attitude, they will either just try to sell you what you think you know so much about & want, or they will try to move on.  Because that kind of person rarely buys anyway and isn't worth spending a lot of time on.  Which bring me to #2

- Salespeople by nature are not trying to sell you what makes the most commission, or even what's most expensive.  If they like you, and feel that you value their experience and opinion, and that's theres a good probability of a sale, they will try to sell you what they think will make you most happy.  You don't make commissions on returned items.  And it's bad for a long term relationship for more sales.  And sales people are human beings as well and capable of empathy.

The lazy sales person will try to sell you what's EASIEST to close : $10 with high probability is better than $50 of very low probability. And it's less risk to them : if you don't like it, it's YOUR fault for wanting it, not theirs for recommending something better that you might not like.

Empathy :

I don't have empathy for people who buy things they can't afford, and much less waste peoples time knowing they can't and / or won't spend.  These good are "wants", not "needs".  And if they don't value sales professionals because they think they know everything, they should just buy browse online and don't "showroom" dealers.

Economy :

As for "much less money direct" : see Tanner's response.  There's a false sense of value here.  Most of the time better things cost more, and higher end things have higher sales costs, whether you do it in-house or through dealerships. Just because you put a tarted up face plate on POS does not make it less of a POS. Im thinking for example Emotiva here.  Sorry Emotiva fan boys.

A lot of B&M A/V stores went under because they entered home theater too heavily, and when the real estate bubble burst, people couldn't just roll high end home theaters into their home mortgages.  Between that and taking on too much inventory and debt.  The more specialist 2 channel shops with more prudent business practices were able to ride it out.

Is their more income disparity now than 10 years ago. Probably.  But that doesn't address my key contention about the de-valuing of the sales professional in the USA.  This had already been well underway many years before the crash.  Not to take anything away from manufactures - particularly good ones - and all that's involved to make good product, to adequately support it, and to be successful.  But in today's even more crowded electronics market with even more players getting involved from around the world, even in the boutique world of hifi, the challenge more than ever is to get product in front of people and have capable and qualified people with the right relationships to sell it.  Because at the end of the day it's still a people relationship business : people buy people first, then the product.  With internet shopping many people have lost sight of that, but it's still true, and even more in "high end" retail sales.  And because those channels and talent is becoming MORE scarce, it should be considered MORE valuable. And no, that doesn't come cheap.

I'm surprised Dave, having been in sales yourself, that these things particularly to you are not more obvious!

[jarcher]

As brick and mortar HiFi shops fall more and more off the radar, folks in the know are members of and frequenting online forums and groups to learn as much as they can about a particular product prior to purchase. It comes as no surprise that online sites: Audio Advisor and Music Direct are becoming increasingly popular. Having traveled internationally and popped into more than a few shops in the UK/EU/Asia, I can tell you that the quality of salesmanship and product knowledge has decreased in relative terms. Let's bear in mind that with the Internet so much product and service information is now readily available to consumers, so its not like the salespeople are the gatekeepers anymore.

Having re-settled in the States to Central Ohio, I have learned first hand how slim the pickings are when it comes to shops and how I am going to have to rely for the most part on sites like Audio Advisor and Music Direct. I have also seen with the rising prices, that there is a benefit, if all criteria is met, of dealing with a product manufacturer who sells direct without a dealer network. Subsequently the prices are lower and the consumer comes away with a product they deem to be of equal or better quality and decidedly less expensive than a product laden with the costs of advertising and a dealer network.

Growing up in NYC, in one day for the price of a subway token, I could visit  Stereo Exchange, Innovative Audio, Lyric HiFi, Sound by Singer. I had 4 top notch shops with fellows (there were no women) who knew what they were talking about and would take the time to properly demonstrate gear. These past 4 years living in London, England was a bit of an eye-opener. Although there are a fair number of shops over there, London has morphed, the shops are not easy if at all possible to get to in one day, and they are not particularly subtle about their agendas. Mind you, if you think prices on this side of the Atlantic are high, well, that's another rant entirely

Im surprised : you preface about declining B&M, buying online and how great forums are, then reminisce about the golden days of visiting NYC hifi shops (all of which you name still being in business).  Seems inconsistent / illogical.  If you liked visiting those B&M's : why don't you do business with them?  AA & MD are dealers as well as with the same margins but lower cost structures.  Why not buy from those NYC dealers who you spent so much time at (and they with you), particularly if you couldn't afford it then, but now can?   

[jarcher]

"Obsolete" (his words, not mine) dude's monetary value to a consumer is zero, and that's what his advice is worth. I'm sure the guy has a lot of knowledge, but on forums like AC, we can literally converse with legendary audio designers, acoustics professionals, speaker manufacturers, etc. and gain firsthand knowledge. Obsolete dude can't compete with that. For example, if I have a question or technical issue with any of my gear, including cables, power conditioners, and isolation devices, I can email the guy who designed it and get a response within 24 hours, and it's free.

Don't follow : you say that you're sure the guy has a lot of knowledge, but that his monetary value & advice to the consumer is zero.  How does that make sense? 

Do you really think the advice and knowledge of the "legendary audio designers etc" is not potentially subject to limitations of experience and subject to bias, possibly ignorance as well?  E.g. I've heard a "legendary" cartridge manufacturer says that's what's most important for LP playback naturally is the cartridge, not the table / arm / phone preamp etc.  Seem like good balanced advice to you?

The product designer / engineer knows best about his product?  You'd hope so, but often they don't have experience of it's use in the field and in customers hands.  That sticky end of the information chain often comes from.......you guessed it..........dealers.  They're the front line of customer service issues. What I find even more ironic is the customer service requests we get from customer who buy online : they can't get good information, but, you know, we're dealers for the same product, so how about we resolve their problem even if they didn't buy it from us? That's really true - happens every week.

And do you really think the "legendary designers" have the time or inclination to deal with every question / concern from every tom, dick and harry out there - many times who's problems arise from gross ignorance or negligence?  How do you expect them to improve or develop new product if they spend all the time answering those questions? Isn't it a bit selfish to assume they should?

It's time to grow up folks.  I know an internet forum is speaking to the wrong crowd about non-internet realities.  But that "reality check" is useful none the less. Support those you should financially and be the better person.

[jarcher]

I can't get past Marc Silver's sloppy reasoning, bad grammar and misspellings. For example:
para 4 – ‘Thornes”?
para 8 – no such thing as ‘square wave rise time’.
para 9 – ‘Sal Marnatz’? (Saul Marantz), ‘Stu Hegaman’ (Hegeman).
para 10 – ‘Marchisoto’ (Marchisotto), ‘Dahquist’ (Dahlquist).
para 17 – ‘there isn’t (aren’t) enough people….that (who) love the hobby….and (are?) willing, etc., etc.
para 18 – ‘people that (who) want music…’
parap 19 – p-mount cartridges date from the 80’s not 90's (Audio Technica)

Give em a break Russell : if he were Shakespeare or Einstein, do you think he'd be selling hifi?  The overall gist of what he saying and it's validity is what's important.  Forest for trees folks.

[dB Cooper]

Live music costs a lot cheaper than even a mid-fi audio system -- an average season subscription to a symphony orchestra/chamber series/opera/jazz series is around $200 for decent seats. Multiply that by 3, and you still end up paying only about $600 per season. Vs. say $5K for a mid-fi system, or $15-30K for a hi-end two-channel system made up of the likes of Bryston etc. Not saying it's better than owning a SOTA system at home. But with all these observations posted above, is it any wonder hi-end is thinning out?

It IS better than owning a SOTA system at home- if you follow the premise, as I do, that the purpose of 'hi fi' (I dislike the term 'high end' and its condescending cousin 'mid-fi') is to reproduce music as realistically as possible in the home. There is a cello player, Vincent Belanger, who has visited the last couple Capital audiofests, and gives live-vs-recorded demos amongst other things. The most expensive systems in the show- costing well into six figures- can't do it 100%. At some point it becomes (for the consumer) more about conspicuous consumption, and for the manufacturer, more about selling a few megabuck systems every year vs a number of reasonably priced systems (it's probably less work). I just know that I put together a pretty musical system in 1971- when I was a teenager, on lawn cutting money- for the equivalent of $2500 in 2016 money. And I didn't do it because some fast talking B&M salesperson blew smoke up my ass- I did it because the slightly older kid next door did the samething and I was exposed to quality sound as a result. So it doesnt depend entirely on a B&M infrastructure.

[DaveC113]

I'm surprised Dave, having been in sales yourself, that these things particularly to you are not more obvious!

Well... I have a ton of sales experience and was one of the nation's top salespeople at a national chain big-box store. So I'd say my version of the truth is much more accurate than yours.

Your version is what a good salesperson should do, but the great majority of sales people are NOT good. Your chances of finding a "sales professional" as you describe is slim, unfortunately.

[R. Daneel]

http://www.dagogo.com/what-happened-to-hifi

I can't say I agree with every statement in this article. HIFI industry has always been a place where many, many "camouflage operators" have flourished and it has been this way since the beginning.

People who are interested in HIFI for the sake of audio alone will always be well informed. As a historical irony, the cheaper the item is, the more informed the customer is.

The real problem lies in HIFI manufacturers. It's easier than ever to make something. Whether it's good or bad, they don't take any responsibility for it because for one, others are doing it and two, they outsource the parts from OEM so they don't even have to "know" the principles on this these components work and consequently, how to repair them.

If you were to buy a Volkswagen Golf in early 1980s, you'd be invited to their facility and be given a tour of it by one of the engineers working there. If you were to buy a DIK Đurđenovac oak furniture, they would deliver it to your house, bring it inside, assemble everything, polish it and then help you move it where you want it. Today, Volkswagen will deny you service after a catastrophis and impossible failure after just 10.000 km and you'll get an instruction booklet to assemble the furniture yourself. Naturally, it will be translated from who-knows-what language by a monkey.

It is the way of the world, not just the HIFI industry!

Cheers!
Antun

[R. Daneel]

There's one other thing. HIFI industry is not exactly the type of industry where the customer himself is a professional.

Take construction/engineering industry. A salesperson can't expect to convince a professional engineer that PVC pipes are superior to PE pipes in terms of their hydraulic properties. It is because a professional engineer will most likely know a lot more about it than the salesperson. So in the end, the salespeple in this industry are usually engineers themselves.

HIFI is hardly a thing to make a living out of so many of the salespeople do this par-time. So he could be a baker working at a bakery during the day and sell HIFI in the afternoon. As unbelievable as it may sound, many high-end brands are represented by dealers like these where I live. You can't expect a baker to know much about it now can you?

But as I said before, the real problem happens when the manufacturer stops caring this baker is costing them sales due to his ignorance. Then the customer is left in a rather miserable position.

Cheers!
Antun

[vegasdave]

Nice rant dB - love the passion 

For me as good as headphones are they just are not my main listening preference.

I have tried all or most of the top quality headphones as we manufacture an excellent headphone amp - the BHA-1. But for me the recreation of a 3-dimensional sound stage with instruments placed correctly in space is my priority and try as I may I just have not been able to achieve that with the use of headphones.

A pair of the Bryston Mini A speakers at $1200 and a nice integrated amplifier and source will do this kind of 3D presentation so for me I would prefer this setup in a small room over headphones.

james

i have a low tolerance for headphones...there's a headphone jack in my bp6 and i have yet to use it. speakers are so much more satisfying. i don't need to take my music everywhere i go. i think it's just a fad, really.

[CanadianMaestro]

i have a low tolerance for headphones...there's a headphone jack in my bp6 and i have yet to use it. speakers are so much more satisfying. i don't need to take my music everywhere i go. i think it's just a fad, really.

Completely agree.

HPs are immune to room acoustics. But then the spatial realism is gone with HPs.

[JLM]

In the golden age of audio (1950-1980) stereo (as we used to call it) was the dominant techie pastime.  No really entertaining alternatives existed.  Now a myriad of options exist to compete with audio on a technical basis for our free time.  This explains why so many here have IT backgrounds and are into the latest digital technologies, especially relating to sources.  We've gotten very addicted to stimulation, especially multiple sensory stimulation, so audio loses out.  And as the average audiophile has gotten older we've gotten addicted to convenience, thus remote controls, downloads, mail-order/online shopping, and digital over vinyl.  The saving grace among the world's privileged has been our obsession with being entertained. 

So if the trend continues, invest in multi-sensory, convenient, digitally based high-tech entertainment.