What Happened to Hi-Fi

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JLM

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #20 on: 19 Dec 2016, 12:06 pm »
Audioengine is on the right track.  They provide for a compact, relatively cheap, and easy entry point into in-room audio.  The HD3 ($399/pair, F3=65Hz) for instance allows for wired (digital or analog) or wireless inputs, front mounted on/off-volume controls, built-in DAC/power amps, and even a headphone jack to address that other mode of modern listening in a 7 inch tall speaker.  Just two wires needed, power cord and speaker cable.  Setup takes only a minute.

The concept is anti-audio establishment: simple; not impressive looking; not expensive.  No trophies to gloat over, no stuffy audio shops to visit, no years of crawling up (or around) the audio food chain, no frustration of gear mismatches, no need for DIY, no futzing with setups.  The concept removes all the hobbyist elements and gives direct access to in-room music. 

This is the new world of audio.  No longer to be taken deathly seriously, but to be enjoyed where you live.  It's a reformation of audio.  The old guard will slowly fade away, it has already become less relevant as the masses have given up worrying about the last percentages of ultimate fidelity for the sake of their wallets, lifestyle, and sanity. 

A midpoint has also emerged, the compact DAC/preamp with more purist active monitors.  Wired connections is the norm, but a simpler setup, good for desktop or in-room with stands (subwoofer optional).  Sound quality can be very good, prices are significantly lower, setup flexibility greatly improved.  The challenges here are: 1.) Getting over using studio inspired speakers; 2.) Giving up the dominating trophies; 3.) Giving up much of the hunt for separates; and 4.) Giving up vinyl where a "reasonable" desktop solution is needed. 

CanadianMaestro

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #21 on: 19 Dec 2016, 12:57 pm »
I don't anyone, who's interested in accurate reproduction of music in their living room, who acquires gear for "trophy" purposes. It's not like jewellery or cars, that are status symbols that are too easy to show off to strangers.

davidavdavid

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #22 on: 19 Dec 2016, 01:49 pm »
While I'm not about to argue that the minimalism is alive and well at the present, it is indeed having a chilling effect on HiFi, as I touched upon in an earlier post. If one is to buy into the status quo as immutable, then by all means HiFi as we knew it, as we grew up with it, as we continue to interact with it today might very well be gone.

The is the last thing Industry designers, manufacturers, and dealers want. They are not a blind lot. They can see that in order for them generate revenue and profitability (gasp) they must make components and systems which meet the mainstream wants. The jury is out on whether or not the mainstream knows what it needs, or is even in a position to be aware of what is possible sonically. If one looks at the future, as if it were a one way tunnel, with no route to the past, designers, manufacturers and might as well close up shop and be done with it. No need for upgrades, no need for new and improved products.

I can and have been at sometimes,  the industry's harshest critic, but as a longtime audiophile/hobbyist (spanning 5 decades) am not ready to surrender, to wave the white flag. The watchword for audiophiles and audio industry is renaissance. If new blood is not injected to audiophilia as we know and appreciate it, then it is indeed game over.

JLM

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #23 on: 19 Dec 2016, 02:28 pm »
As a history buff I recall that renaissance preceded reformation.  The renaissance (digital sourcing and streaming) has already happened.  It opened the door to higher quality, more convenience, miniaturization, and lower prices.  iFi and NuForce are good examples. 

What we're seeing now is the reformation.  Old thinking is losing relevance.  The middle class (always the biggest market) no longer has the money or the space for legacy floor standing speakers or huge racks of gear.  So old school hi-fi is a dinosaur, best left to old farts with smoking jackets and single malt scotch and soon to museums.  As mentioned above, why invest $10,000 in gear and another $20,000 in media when you could buy a lifetime of live performances plus a system that gives up the last 5% of fidelity to add convenience and have access to 25 million albums via Tidal.

That's still Hi-Fi in my book.  And much closer to enjoying music.

wushuliu

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #24 on: 19 Dec 2016, 02:45 pm »
This is not an issue of affordability. It's a issue of convenience, and to a large extent, complacency. I know many individuals with high 6, and 7-figure incomes who feel that an iPhone connected to a Bluetooth streaming system, plugged to a surround-sound or whole house system,  is the epitome of music reproduction. And don't see the need for anything more. Music sounds "good enough" And most are passive listeners, where playlists become more important than fidelity. And then there's the material...

You don't even need to spend "Bryston money" to get quality music reproduction. You just have to care enough to look.

The Internet permits the loudest voice in the room to dominate and one of those voices has been the no difference between Mp3 and x.  So if a newcomer has a question on some generic site like CNET you get swarmed with these crusaders and their opinions oh I mean facts. This is another factor as they spam every site with no difference between anything diatribe. Pick any component and there will be someone just waiting to spread the gospel.

DogsPart2

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #25 on: 19 Dec 2016, 02:58 pm »


For me, it makes no difference whether a salesperson understands IM/THD or slew rate measurements.....it's what I hear with my music when auditioning gear, that matters in the end.

You sir, are correct.

davidavdavid

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #26 on: 19 Dec 2016, 03:08 pm »
Case in point. NuForce is no longer NuForce it is Optoma, and the fellow behind NuForce now has built up NuPrime as a company which is addressing a different market with its IDA-16, IDA-8, DAC 10, etc .... (NuPrime has its own Circle on AudioCircle, and has amassed a rather loyal following)

If indeed the world of HiFi has been relegated to those for whom headphones and an economical rig suffice, then why would NuPrime have been started at all? and why would it be attaining numerous awards (The Absolute Sound) and interest across the board? It appears to have more than a few reputable nationwide sites selling their product as well as a growing dealer network.

And if indeed one is to accept this view as dogma, why should AudioCircle exist? Why should any number of the companies with Circles who do not fit into such a proscribed criteria of cost, size and portability continue their respective Circles? and for that matter why should they continue to do business? One would think they'd be doomed. Foolhardy in light of the immutable fact that the old farts in their smoking jackets will assuredly be pushing up daisies, leaving this mortal coil, leading the choir invisible.

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CanadianMaestro

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #27 on: 19 Dec 2016, 03:23 pm »
The Internet permits the loudest voice in the room to dominate and one of those voices has been the no difference between Mp3 and x.  So if a newcomer has a question on some generic site like CNET you get swarmed with these crusaders and their opinions oh I mean facts. This is another factor as they spam every site with no difference between anything diatribe. Pick any component and there will be someone just waiting to spread the gospel.

I always like to remind myself: Darwin is always right.
Survival of the fittest (smartest, etc.).

A critical, skeptical mind (especially with the social media running amok) always emerges victorious.

 :thumb:

dB Cooper

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #28 on: 19 Dec 2016, 04:31 pm »
I appreciate all the thoughtful responses to this thread. And thanks for the link to the original article.

It's more than the stores. I have attended Capital Audiofest the last four or five years (now that the stores are almost all gone, shows are often the only way to hear new equipment). I don't know if I'm going to go anymore. Why? Because, aside from some of the more rationally priced headphones, there isn't much there that speaks to me. I bought my first system (Dyna SCA80/A25/Dual 1218/Shure M91E) (kit) in the early 70s at fifteen, with money from saving allowances and cutting lawns. It cost $330; about $2500 in today's money. Here's the biggest difference between hi-fi then and hi-fi now IMHO: The cost of that system wasn't all that much more than than the department store systems that it blew away with ease.

There is essentially no counterpart to that system in today's audio marketplace. At Capital Audiofest, the closest thing is always the Odyssey room, where he is usually showing a system that costs about $7000. Even that's triple the cost of my Dynaco system, adjusted for inflation, when you take into account the fact that that $7000 does not include a front end of any sort. And the other systems? I did some calculating, and the mean price of the systems I was able to find information for was between $60,000 and $70,000. The Fuc

It is my contention that you do not have to spend $60-$70,000 to get satisfying reproduction of music in the home. But many audiophiles act like it is, deriding lower-priced equipment as "mid-fi" and such. People spend more on cabling than I spent on my entire system. Spend your money however you please, but I submit that the message that you need to spend $1000 just to get the power from the wall to (insert component name here) is actually a deterrent to people getting interested in high fidelity (I hate the term 'high end') music in the home.

Someone mentioned iDevices. Headphones account for most of my listening time these days. Had to sell my component system some years back during hard times and just never got another one- partly because I just don't have five figures to sink into an audio system deemed worthy by today's market, and partly because most of my listening time these days is through headphones, and I get just as much (if not more) satisfaction listening to my SE 535 or HD 650 through a $200 headphone amp as I ever did when I was obsessing over my room component system. In fact, in many rooms at capital audio fest, I found myself thinking (acknowledging the parameters and limitations of headphones) "I get better sound at home for five cents on the dollar". In fact, I probably get more satisfaction listening to Tidal through my Dragonfly Black and SE 535's than I did when I was obsessing over which phono cart had the best synergy with my turntable.

It would be nice to see a healthy entry-level market for decent sounding audio equipment at a reasonable price but there just isn't one anymore. Too bad. The purveyors want to so a few hundred $80,000 systems rather than a few thousand $8000 systems. The hobby needs to get back to the basics. There is more margin in tweaks than in components, so that is where much of the marketing effort goes. Again, spend your money however you like, but I think $2000 (or <half that if you shun 'audiophile' room treatments and hang some quilts) spent on room treatments will have a much bigger influence on the sound you hear than $2000 spent on esoteric cabling.

It's hard to find anyone who doesn't like some form of music. So, if there are music systems that are reasonably priced and have good sound, that should be a huge market. Why isn't it?

Rant over.

James Tanner

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #29 on: 19 Dec 2016, 04:51 pm »
Nice rant dB - love the passion  :thumb:

For me as good as headphones are they just are not my main listening preference.

I have tried all or most of the top quality headphones as we manufacture an excellent headphone amp - the BHA-1. But for me the recreation of a 3-dimensional sound stage with instruments placed correctly in space is my priority and try as I may I just have not been able to achieve that with the use of headphones.

A pair of the Bryston Mini A speakers at $1200 and a nice integrated amplifier and source will do this kind of 3D presentation so for me I would prefer this setup in a small room over headphones.

james


Haurock

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #30 on: 19 Dec 2016, 05:14 pm »
 :dunno:

I'm not sure anything has happened to HiFi per se.  Given the prices of HiFi, I think it's doing very well, than you very much.

I have a sneaky suspicion that the number of audiophiles that existed in the 70's was not all that significant and the number of audiophiles that exists today is not all that significant.  We have been a very very rare breed and I think we will continue to be a very rare breed.  Listening to music through a high quality sound system is a 'time consuming' activity that can only be enjoyed by one, perhaps 2 people at a time.  It's certainly not a group activity.  Think about it when have your system on and you are listening to music, how often are you sharing that with someone else in the room?  How aggravating is it to hear someone else make noise elsewhere in the house? 

And let's not forget.  We don't all agree on what is an 'audiophile'. 

Some people like to spend lots of money on cars.  Cars they don't dare drive in the winter, or rain... Personally, I think that that is foolish, but try and tell them that.  Some people like to spend their money on expensive jewelry.  We all have our...  :green:... vices. 

I once read in Playboy that difference between men and boys is ----- the price of their toys and we do love our toys. 



CanadianMaestro

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #31 on: 19 Dec 2016, 05:17 pm »


I once read in Playboy that difference between men and boys is ----- the price of their toys and we do love our toys.


And the size of their......
bank accounts.


Early B.

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #32 on: 19 Dec 2016, 05:54 pm »
Yeah, the author of that article has been obsolete for the 10 years, and rightly so. There's a new type of audiophile that doesn't derive their information from a customer service rep at a B&M store -- they get it the same way we do -- from the internet through forums like audiocircle. There are tons of lurkers who research and learn from our mistakes and successes, but you'd never know they exist. Someone is buying good gear. That's how the internet dealers are staying in business. So if the obsolete dude wants to stay relevant and continue with his passion of educating people about all things audio, he needs to join AC. We'd love to pick his brain. Maybe one of his grandchildren could show him how to log on.   

timind

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #33 on: 19 Dec 2016, 06:00 pm »
Great rant there db Cooper.

I'm kind of with you as far as what you need to have a quality listening experience. I use an ipod 5th gen through a Nuforce HDP amp to my Senn HD650s for most of my listening. I still have a system set up in a designated room, but finding the time to really get in to it is difficult.

As a means to try and reinvigorate my desire to listen I bought a turntable. With about 100 albums I thought it might be fun. So far...meh.

There are activities I might've considered hobbies that I no longer do. Who here is old enough to remember spending a weekend afternoon polishing their cars? I wonder how the car wax industry is doing?

It's a rarified hobby we participate in. I just don't see the point in lamenting it's slow demise, or continued shrinkage. It surely seems inevitable. Now if I was in the industry, I'd feel differently.
It doesn't even make me sad.

BobRex

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #34 on: 19 Dec 2016, 06:30 pm »
There are activities I might've considered hobbies that I no longer do. Who here is old enough to remember spending a weekend afternoon polishing their cars? I wonder how the car wax industry is doing?


Not to steal the thread....

The car wax industry is doing fine.  Actually, like the audio industry, it has striated into levels of quality, going from lo-end / mid-fi (original, and still available Simonize, and basic Turtle Wax), to high-end (Meguiers, Mothers,...), to exotica, some costing into the hundreds of dollars (Zymol, Pinnacle, Wolfgang), to even the ultra-exotics (polymer coatings and nano-ceramic particles.)  Take a look at a site like autogeek.net if you want to see who uses the upper end stuff.

Jim Pearce

A snippet from a dialogue with Thom Hogan...
« Reply #35 on: 19 Dec 2016, 06:33 pm »
Noted Nikon expert Thom Hogan likes to use the (supposed) extinction of high end audio to illuminate the falling sales of high end DSLR cameras:

Me:

In your most recent article Thom, I have to wonder how this extinction event plays out in terms of demographics. I have a feeling that a disproportionate number of ILC users are like me and largely use a cell phone for calling on the go, and the appeal of the ILC is a quality issue - not unlike the appeal of high end audio (and we know what is happening there).

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that while the typical ILC user is technologically informed (given the workflow complexity, needs to be) we may have a different, more extrinsic, relationship to technology than is typical among younger people. The question in my mind is whether even if the workflow impediments were removed the standalone would make much sense to younger people.

Thom:

The demographics of ILC buyers is "aging." The attraction to new, younger buyers just isn't really there.

The High Fidelity analogy is the right one, I believe. That industry lost to convenience at a time when an aging group of buyers were arguing over whether or not they could actually hear a difference between two products or not. Sound familiar?

I've said it for awhile now: if you don't make it convenient you won't regrow the market. Eventually we'll get a startup or perhaps a Silicon Valley company who tackles "higher end imagery" with a more modern approach, and then it really will be game over for the camera companies.

Me:

I was trying to make a deeper point: those of us who use DSLRs and who are into high resolution audio are trying to capture "the real thing". Younger generations really do live in the "worldless world" (Heidegger) of technology and I'm not sure that "higher end" has any meaning for most of them - at least beyond good enough for 4K.

What worries me most about Nikon's approach to DSLRs here is that their image perfectionism is out of control; clearly trumping getting the shot, processing the shot and communicating the shot. And economics too. Their push to FX clearly is good for profitability in the short run, but in the medium term I see it as a disaster.


poseidonsvoice

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #36 on: 19 Dec 2016, 06:44 pm »
Yeah, the author of that article has been obsolete for the 10 years, and rightly so. There's a new type of audiophile that doesn't derive their information from a customer service rep at a B&M store -- they get it the same way we do -- from the internet through forums like audiocircle. There are tons of lurkers who research and learn from our mistakes and successes, but you'd never know they exist. Someone is buying good gear. That's how the internet dealers are staying in business. So if the obsolete dude wants to stay relevant and continue with his passion of educating people about all things audio, he needs to join AC. We'd love to pick his brain. Maybe one of his grandchildren could show him how to log on.   

I agree and nicely written.

Quote
Again, spend your money however you like, but I think $2000 (or <half that if you shun 'audiophile' room treatments and hang some quilts) spent on room treatments will have a much bigger influence on the sound you hear than $2000 spent on esoteric cabling.

dBCooper,

Nice post. Part of what you said is the reason I got into DIY back in the early 90's when I was in college. It was way too expensive on a college budget (my dream speaker at the time was the Legacy Whisper) and then my DIY interests stuck (and frankly has grown since then with readings of several reference texts, etc...). With my current income I could afford some of these megabuck systems however I choose not to and instead continue to forge ahead in DIY. There is a part of my head that has a hard time justifying the costs of megabuck systems even though my dispensable income has increased dramatically. And I completely agree on paying attention to room treatment and the like. I feel for those who don't have the time or do not like DIY as it is a way to audio nirvana for cheap! There is a huge disparity in high end audio. There is no 'middle class.' And there should be. It seems that the only other path are headphones, hence the proliferation of that industry.

Best,
Anand.

undertow

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #37 on: 19 Dec 2016, 07:01 pm »
Hidden Inflation, The internet, used gear online at the touch of a button... Well it all changed the landscape in this case over 10 to 20 years period.

Along with lack of education, and desire to DIY a lot of stuff in audio.

I am in this so called "Millennial" generation, and I can tell you first hand most have no clue, don't want a clue, and really will never have a clue how much time, and money they waste on items, and or services that will be useless to them in 24 to 48 months.

Key to getting "High end Hifi" back is to people realizing value much like classic cars, or European imports. Cheap is not exactly cheap for an example an IPHONE is WAY overpriced at this point in my opinion as it should be street price around 199. But I can argue a classic Threshold amp is way undervalued for 800!

Fact is not only do most people not have the time, the money, or the patience to learn about and experience this type of hobby, but they are limited to SPACE, and environment which they can even go, and just rock out for hours on end with a 10,000 to 50,000 dollar stereo system anyway.

Plus the ergonomics, and efficiency of big systems is very very difficult to sell today. Whether you need to have a cleaned, and stored Vinyl collection taking up a wall somewhere, or teach somebody how to download, or rip high resolution audio on software that can take you several hours at a time... Your going to have a difficult time proving it's worth all this to the average Joe especially today with the basic options available.

So in the end what is the point?

Headphones make most happy anyway, and honestly MP3 in the car or off the phone where they will get most of the time to listen works well enough.

Having full blown expensive home theaters, and overpriced 2 channel might be a relic which people one day will pay for classics much like a 1961 Ferrari, but will it be back where we have stereo shops on the corner dedicated to this craft again?

Seems for some reason overseas in Asia, and Europe they thrive a bit more on this nostalgia and for whatever reason have the new money to support it, but in the U.S. it will be difficult to get back there I have a feeling.
« Last Edit: 19 Dec 2016, 09:16 pm by undertow »

DaveC113

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #38 on: 19 Dec 2016, 07:06 pm »
Not to steal the thread....

The car wax industry is doing fine.  Actually, like the audio industry, it has striated into levels of quality, going from lo-end / mid-fi (original, and still available Simonize, and basic Turtle Wax), to high-end (Meguiers, Mothers,...), to exotica, some costing into the hundreds of dollars (Zymol, Pinnacle, Wolfgang), to even the ultra-exotics (polymer coatings and nano-ceramic particles.)  Take a look at a site like autogeek.net if you want to see who uses the upper end stuff.

Yeah, the love of cars (and keeping them clean) will never die! I just spend $130 or so on car detailing products during Chemical Guys 30% off black friday sale. Their top of the line paste wax goes for $2500. Their regular line of products is decent value though, especially if you wait for sales, you can get product for about 1/2 the price of similar local in-store purchase options. If you have a few friends you can split gallons of product and save a good bit of $.

An aside, I do think the new polymer paint sealers are pretty cool, easy to use and not that expensive... have not tried ceramic coatings yet though, apparently the best ones require a polish before applying and are intended for professional use. Polymers last 6-12 months though and aren't any more difficult to apply vs liquid waxes so I'll probably stick to sealing 2x/yr and using liquid carnuba every couple months.

Mag

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #39 on: 20 Dec 2016, 03:51 am »
Using my Model T speakers in an unconventional manor. I know that the reflected image seems to be projecting off the front wall. So I imagined the idea could be expanded on but I'm not able to experiment due to limited space.

If the idea works it could change how stereo speakers are set up in a larger room, and not confine the imaging to just the sweet spot. Would it rejuvenate interest in Hi-Fi, I don't know but may have a broader application then I am able to imagine, possibly gaming. :smoke: