AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Headphone Mania => Topic started by: jawks on 22 Sep 2019, 02:32 am
-
Hello,
I'm new to this circle and was hoping to ask for some suggestions. I've enjoyed my Sennheiser HD 650's for the past couple of years and still get a lot of use out of them (paired with either a Dragonfly, Chord Mojo, or Decware CSP2). I'm debating whether or not to upgrade, and if I decide to do so, it would have to be for a headphone that clearly was more engaging. I've previously owned a T1.1, LCD3, and MDR-ZR1 but sold them; I got each of them at a really good deal but I wasn't spending enough time listening to them to make it worthwhile to keep them. The HD 650 is, in my opinion, a great value and suits my listening tastes, but the influx of all these new headphones and curiosity has made me wonder if there is something out there that I'd appreciate even more. I listen mostly to acoustic jazz and classical but do enjoy listening to pop/rock from time to time.
The other issue is that if I decide to spend $1k+, I would prefer to be able to audition the headphones before buying them. I live in the Boston area and know of a couple of shops that carry specific lines but I'm not aware of any that have several different lines (and their top or near top models). I've been browsing reviews of a few different models online, but as I'm sure you know, what you read in a review can be quite different from how the headphone sounds to your own ears and when listening to your own music.
The models I've been researching include the Focal Clear, Grado GS1000, Grado GS3000e, Sennheiser HD800s, and ZMF Aeolus and Auteur. I realize the ZMF's are special order only and can't really be auditioned. For those of you who have experience with these headphones, any words of wisdom?
Thanks!
-
In that list the ones I think you should try are the Clear and the HD800s. But be warned if your recordings are less than perfect, the HD800s will trash them.
I personally don’t like the Grado sound.
Happy hunting.
-
Thank you for the reply! Are there any other models that you would suggest?
-
Checkout the Focal Elear as well. They are on sale at Headphone.com with a case and extra pads for 599.
According to the sonarworks review site, the Focal Elear is actually ranked slightly higher than Focal Clear.
Also, the Sony MDR Z7 M2 is worth a look as well.
-
Checkout the Focal Elear as well. They are on sale at Headphone.com with a case and extra pads for 599.
According to the sonarworks review site, the Focal Elear is actually ranked slightly higher than Focal Clear.
Also, the Sony MDR Z7 M2 is worth a look as well.
Thanks for the reply! I've heard mixed comments about the Elear vs Clear. Some say they couldn't really tell a difference; others say that Clear was clearly (no pun intended) better. Having previously owned a ZR1, I think I'd be less likely to jump on a Z7. A big question for me is whether any of these would be much better than my HD650's.
-
I have hd600s similar to 650s. Just got clears head and shoulders above them. Have t1, t90, dt1350s etc. Same concerns ad you. Go listen to the vocals with good music. Sorry for short reply..on phone
Alex
-
Thanks, Alex! There is a dealer within 20 miles of where I live that may have Focals, so it looks like an audition might be possible! Do you like the Clears more than the T1? Any experience with any of the Grados or ZMFs?
-
jawks,
I really like the T1's I have the Rev 2's and they really are a very good headphone. Some folks at other sites very much dislike them.
I started with Beyers years ago and was and still am impressed with their build quality, and went thru T90's to DT1350's and had to try their TOTL can the T1.
Been thru planars with Audeze, Grados with three different sets, some Audio Technica and AKG;s.
For me the Focal Clears are the nicest tonally balanced articulate headphones I have ever listened to.
I almost ordered the HD800s' but one of the site folks kept telling me go listen to them....and I have a dealer just a few miles away.
It took me about 3 minutes to discern these were something special and I had to have a set....
Never heard a ZMF.
I know there is nothing that is perfect but these are getting really close IMO.
...and for a $999 price until the end of Sept....its a sweet deal for sure...
Still $1K, but if I knew what I know now from experience I would have bought these years ago. If they existed back then!!
Great times in audio...
Alex
-
Thanks for the reply! I've heard mixed comments about the Elear vs Clear. Some say they couldn't really tell a difference; others say that Clear was clearly (no pun intended) better. Having previously owned a ZR1, I think I'd be less likely to jump on a Z7. A big question for me is whether any of these would be much better than my HD650's.
.
According to the reviews from the sonarworks website, both Focal phones are a step up from the 650's in terms of both sound and build quality. No question the Focals will hold up a lot longer than the 650's.
Regarding the sound quality deltas between the Elear and Clear, that's a tough one to nail down. The Clears will play slightly louder than the Elears with a given input level, due to the lower impedance, but they are essentially the same driver. The Elears measure flatter than the Clear, so combine that with a slightly louder volume level for the same input, that could account for the varied opinions. Keep in mind most people will instinctively initially pick the louder volume object as sounding better. It's only over time do opinions change once folks work that out.
At any rate, good luck, and will be interested to see what you decide.
-
I recently sent a buddy my old pair of Hifiman 400i’s, his main headphone for the last few months are the
Senn HD 650’s. He personally likes what the 400i’s has to offer in sound quality and now likes them better
then the 650’s..
You won’t know for sure how any headphones sounds until you’ve listened to them at home in your system,
at least that’s the way it’s going with me.. Personal taste is everything.. I now own the Senn HD 800S,
Hifiman Ananda’s and the Beyer T1.2’s, they all have something going for them.
Toocool4 is right, the better the headphones the more resolving they are, crappy recording sound like
crap and great recording will reward you.
Enjoy the ride.. It's fun.
Jerry
-
jawks,
I really like the T1's I have the Rev 2's and they really are a very good headphone. Some folks at other sites very much dislike them.
I started with Beyers years ago and was and still am impressed with their build quality, and went thru T90's to DT1350's and had to try their TOTL can the T1.
Been thru planars with Audeze, Grados with three different sets, some Audio Technica and AKG;s.
For me the Focal Clears are the nicest tonally balanced articulate headphones I have ever listened to.
I almost ordered the HD800s' but one of the site folks kept telling me go listen to them....and I have a dealer just a few miles away.
It took me about 3 minutes to discern these were something special and I had to have a set....
Never heard a ZMF.
I know there is nothing that is perfect but these are getting really close IMO.
...and for a $999 price until the end of Sept....its a sweet deal for sure...
Still $1K, but if I knew what I know now from experience I would have bought these years ago. If they existed back then!!
Great times in audio...
Alex
Thanks, Alex, for the detailed reply! Glad to hear that you really like your Clears! I think I will have to go to my local dealer to try to have a listen and compare with my HD650s. Wow, it's pretty amazing that they reduced the price 'til the end of September!
Which Grado's did you previously own?
-
I recently sent a buddy my old pair of Hifiman 400i’s, his main headphone for the last few months are the
Senn HD 650’s. He personally likes what the 400i’s has to offer in sound quality and now likes them better
then the 650’s..
You won’t know for sure how any headphones sounds until you’ve listened to them at home in your system,
at least that’s the way it’s going with me.. Personal taste is everything.. I now own the Senn HD 800S,
Hifiman Ananda’s and the Beyer T1.2’s, they all have something going for them.
Toocool4 is right, the better the headphones the more resolving they are, crappy recording sound like
crap and great recording will reward you.
Enjoy the ride.. It's fun.
Jerry
Thanks, Jerry. I agree. I previously bought headphones (except for the HD650's, which I auditioned at a local shop) based on reviews and reputation, and perhaps it's not surprising that those were the headphones that I decided not to keep. I think that any future purchase will have to backed up with some auditioning.
Albert
-
.
According to the reviews from the sonarworks website, both Focal phones are a step up from the 650's in terms of both sound and build quality. No question the Focals will hold up a lot longer than the 650's.
Regarding the sound quality deltas between the Elear and Clear, that's a tough one to nail down. The Clears will play slightly louder than the Elears with a given input level, due to the lower impedance, but they are essentially the same driver. The Elears measure flatter than the Clear, so combine that with a slightly louder volume level for the same input, that could account for the varied opinions. Keep in mind most people will instinctively initially pick the louder volume object as sounding better. It's only over time do opinions change once folks work that out.
At any rate, good luck, and will be interested to see what you decide.
Thanks, Freo-1! It seems like the Clears are well liked by many! I'll try to get my hands on a pair to audition!
-
I first bought a set of Grado SR80e to see what the Grado House sound was all about, then I bought a set of
Prestige 325is, I actually enjoyed them, but the comfort level for me was not that great.
The earpads were scratchy feeling to me and I could never get used to them...but they were indeed clear and bright.
Dont think you will go wrong with the Focals....there are others out there that are good as well.
I right now am totally satisfied with this purchase and these may be my end game cans.
Alex
-
Thanks for the reply! I've heard mixed comments about the Elear vs Clear. Some say they couldn't really tell a difference; others say that Clear was clearly (no pun intended) better. Having previously owned a ZR1, I think I'd be less likely to jump on a Z7. A big question for me is whether any of these would be much better than my HD650's.
You can't go wrong with any of the Focal choices. Am quite happy with the Elears.
Curious about your impressions with the Sony Z1R. That was a model I was curious about. The Z1R is one of those phones that some folks love, while others do not like at all.
When I first got the Z7's, I was not impressed. However, after getting a Dynalo headphone amp, my impressions totally changed for the better. They are actually good cans, but really need a good headphone amp to get the tonality correct.
-
The ZR1's were nice headphones, but frankly I just wasn't listening to them enough to justify keeping them. They were comfortable to wear and as closed headphones did a nice job of isolating outside sound. I just couldn't get myself to fall in love with them. I mostly paired them with a Chord Mojo or Audioquest Dragonfly, occasionally with the tube amp Decware CSP2, so perhaps that had something to do with it. Like you mentioned, I also noticed in forums that people either really like or dislike them.
-
I first bought a set of Grado SR80e to see what the Grado House sound was all about, then I bought a set of
Prestige 325is, I actually enjoyed them, but the comfort level for me was not that great.
The earpads were scratchy feeling to me and I could never get used to them...but they were indeed clear and bright.
Dont think you will go wrong with the Focals....there are others out there that are good as well.
I right now am totally satisfied with this purchase and these may be my end game cans.
Alex
That's awesome that you're happy with them to consider them your end game cans!
-
If you never listen to the Focal Clear or Focal Utopia then the Elear is good, but if you hear the Clear or Utopia then you will think the Elear sounds broken because that is what the Clear and the Utopia make the Elear sound like. Personally I don’t care how much the Elear’s are discounted for, save up the extra and get the Clear or Utopia.
-
If you never listen to the Focal Clear or Focal Utopia then the Elear is good, but if you hear the Clear or Utopia then you will think the Elear sounds broken because that is what the Clear and the Utopia make the Elear sound like. Personally I don’t care how much the Elear’s are discounted for, save up the extra and get the Clear or Utopia.
Disagree. So does the crew at sonarworks. They rate the Elear score slightly higher over the Clear. Both headphones have essentially the same driver, the main delta being the impedance (Clear is lower, so its a bit louder, for a given input which may folks mistake for better).
For now, the Focal website still shows the Elear as available for purchase.
Here are the reviews :
https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/focal-elear-studio-headphone-review/ (https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/focal-elear-studio-headphone-review/)
https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/focal-clear-and-clear-professional-studio-headphone-review/ (https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/focal-clear-and-clear-professional-studio-headphone-review/)
The Elear has a flatter frequency response.
-
Freo-1 your prerogative to disagree.
I don’t go by reviews, I go by my ears and I have listened to all 3. When I first heard the Elear it was before the Utopia and subsequently Clear was released, I thought the Elear sounded wonderful which indeed it does. The Utopia came out and did make the Elear sound broken then the Clear came out did the same to the Elear.
Put them all on the end of high-end headphone amps / source, them you will hear what I mean.
-
The other issue is that if I decide to spend $1k+, I would prefer to be able to audition the headphones before buying them. I live in the Boston area and know of a couple of shops that carry specific lines but I'm not aware of any that have several different lines (and their top or near top models). I've been browsing reviews of a few different models online, but as I'm sure you know, what you read in a review can be quite different from how the headphone sounds to your own ears and when listening to your own music.
Good thinking :) Maybe you have a portable setup (or can put one together)?
-
Toocool4 is right, the better the headphones the more resolving they are, crappy recording sound like
crap and great recording will reward you.
I'm going to push back on this because it's become a worn trope when discussing gear. Especially with headphones. You can have gear be 'resolving' and sound just as good with 'crap' (whatever that means) as with 'great' (whatever that means). When I read that something is too resolving and you need great recordings etc. then what I pay attention to are things like the frequency response and the distortion profile, because it tends to mean that there is an overemphasis in the mids to high frequencies and/or higher order distortion. That's not the same as resolving. Just means the mid/top end is perceived as accentuated and therefore 'detailed' etc.
I own the HD6XX/650 and after all the research the conclusion I've come to is anything more expensive gives you a different choice of presentation but not necessarily resolution - and those that do have superior resolution come with other trade-offs. No free lunch.
In the headphone world for some reason accentuated upper frequencies are linked to 'transparency' and 'resolution' and people are willing to accept that because it's supposed to mean it's good. Whereas I don't think most audiophiles would listen to speakers that are voiced the same way because their ears would bleed.
-
I own the HD6XX/650 and after all the research the conclusion I've come to is anything more expensive gives you a different choice of presentation but not necessarily resolution - and those that do have superior resolution come with other trade-offs. No free lunch.
Thanks for your insight. So, is the HD6xx/650 the can of your choice, or do you have others as well?
-
I'm going to push back on this because it's become a worn trope when discussing gear. Especially with headphones. You can have gear be 'resolving' and sound just as good with 'crap' (whatever that means) as with 'great' (whatever that means). When I read that something is too resolving and you need great recordings etc. then what I pay attention to are things like the frequency response and the distortion profile, because it tends to mean that there is an overemphasis in the mids to high frequencies and/or higher order distortion. That's not the same as resolving. Just means the mid/top end is perceived as accentuated and therefore 'detailed' etc.
I own the HD6XX/650 and after all the research the conclusion I've come to is anything more expensive gives you a different choice of presentation but not necessarily resolution - and those that do have superior resolution come with other trade-offs. No free lunch.
In the headphone world for some reason accentuated upper frequencies are linked to 'transparency' and 'resolution' and people are willing to accept that because it's supposed to mean it's good. Whereas I don't think most audiophiles would listen to speakers that are voiced the same way because their ears would bleed.
This.
On Focal...
The Elear seems to have a polarizing sound, I'd listen to it first. The Clear or Elex (if you can find it) are much safer bets. The Elex in particular is an amazing complimentary headphone to the HD650.
-
Freo-1 your prerogative to disagree.
I don’t go by reviews, I go by my ears and I have listened to all 3. When I first heard the Elear it was before the Utopia and subsequently Clear was released, I thought the Elear sounded wonderful which indeed it does. The Utopia came out and did make the Elear sound broken then the Clear came out did the same to the Elear.
Put them all on the end of high-end headphone amps / source, them you will hear what I mean.
I go by my personal experience and use reviews that have actual measurements as a tool to evaluate. As far as electronics, the Mjolnir headphone amp is among the best SS amps available. So, no worries there. I'll always go for the phones that sound good, and the measurements back up what I think sounds good.
Wushulilu brings up some valid points. Price alone does not guarantee better. For example, Wilson audio speakers tend to measure rather poorly, but cost a fortune. One of the benefits of owning a headphone like a Focal is the fact that it is built like a tank, so it will last a long time, and will be less likely to suffer wear related issues from lesser cost units that are largely plastic.
John R mentioning a portable setup also could be helpful. I have a A&K KANN, which can drive a fair percentage of headphones. That could help with the review process.
Regardless, the best advice is to get a short list of candidates, go review them for yourself with music you are familiar with, and go with what sounds best to you. Audiophiles rarely agree on anything, and headphones are perhaps the most difficult to get widespread agreement. :D
-
I'm going to push back on this because it's become a worn trope when discussing gear. Especially with headphones. You can have gear be 'resolving' and sound just as good with 'crap' (whatever that means) as with 'great' (whatever that means). When I read that something is too resolving and you need great recordings etc. then what I pay attention to are things like the frequency response and the distortion profile, because it tends to mean that there is an overemphasis in the mids to high frequencies and/or higher order distortion. That's not the same as resolving. Just means the mid/top end is perceived as accentuated and therefore 'detailed' etc.
I own the HD6XX/650 and after all the research the conclusion I've come to is anything more expensive gives you a different choice of presentation but not necessarily resolution - and those that do have superior resolution come with other trade-offs. No free lunch.
In the headphone world for some reason accentuated upper frequencies are linked to 'transparency' and 'resolution' and people are willing to accept that because it's supposed to mean it's good. Whereas I don't think most audiophiles would listen to speakers that are voiced the same way because their ears would bleed.
While, you do make valid points, I do know what I heard and some recordings since getting better headphones sound like crap to me, Sorry. Please feel free to choose any word you would like to use to describe it... also feel free to quote any of the words in this paragraph..
-
I've heard most of the high end headphones at this point and the general point that after a certain level, you're really not getting something "better" as much as "different flavor" holds true.
However, there is an exception. The Meze Empyrean truly excels at both resolution and musicality. It's quite impressive really.
-
I feel the same way about the Clears after 3 days of solid listening....they articulate as good as or better than other cans, but even if the resolution is equal to others its ability to combine this with its tonality and musicality make it one of the best for me.
I feel the same way as Tyson does with the Meze Empyrean!
Alex
-
The headphones that sound the least like headphones in the manner of how they present and structure the spatial element are the right ones for me. The HD800 are said to be in a class by themselves in this regard. I hope to hear them somewhere in my travels and I definitely wouldn’t consider buying anything else without hearing them first.
-
wushuliu good headphones can be detailed and revealing without being ruthless i agree with you. 2 examples that come to mind are Beyerdynamic T1 and the AKG K812, but the HD800 is a different animal it takes no prisoners.
-
Freo-1 again for me I don’t care about measurements, my ears are the measurement device I need. The are plenty of things that measure well but sounds bad, I’d rather it sounded good then measure well. I listen with my ears not my eyes.
I am sure Ultrasone Edition 10 measures well, but it sounds like crap.
-
If something measures well, it will sound accordingly. If it measures poorly, it simply can't sound good, in absolute terms.
I've noticed with headphones there is a WIDE diversity of opinions. At the end of the day, it comes down to individual choice based on preferences. The recordings strengths and shortfalls are much more noticeable with cans than with speakers. Spending more does not necessarily mean better performance. The electronics driving the headphones can make a large difference in perception as to how a set of phones sound.
Measurements can help with decisions, but at the end of the day, individual preferences are what folks follow.
-
I am sure Ultrasone Edition 10 measures well,
Not really... https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/ultrasone-edition-10-page-2
With that said, headphones are tricky to measure. There is no such thing as "flat", for example, only with respect to a reference ear/pinna response, which varies. Tyll wrote some good articles on the subject.
-
Anyway JohnR I think you get what I am saying? Measurement means nothing if it sounds like crap, some people are all about measurements. Me if it sounds good to me, I don’t care what it measures like. :wink:
-
Agree that headphone measurements can be a bit tricky, BUT, they damn sure are engineered to production with measurements dictating the overall success of the final product going to market.
The sonarworks correction curves are designed primarily for professionals who use phones to mix music releases. I wish I could apply this to my A/K KANN for the Sony MDR Z7 cans. Therefore, when making a list of what headphones to consider for purchase, I'll use reviews that actually have some real world data to assist in the evaluation. The final decision always comes down to what sounds the best for the price range I'm willing to spend. So, if I find that headphone A is 50% of headphone B, and headphone A gets 95% or closer to headphone B, then I'll chose headphone A, and use the savings elsewhere. An example of that IMHO is the Stax SR-007 vs the SR-009. The SR-009, to me, is not worth the extra cost, as the SR-007 actually sounds better (to me).
I totally get the concept of letting one's listening experience be the final judge of what cans to get. Since all of our hearing is different, getting a group of audiophiles to agree on what headphone setups are best is a bit like herding cats, :green:
Sadly, I think price subconsciously drives opinion as to what is better.
-
Agree that headphone measurements can be a bit tricky, BUT, they damn sure are engineered to production with measurements dictating the overall success of the final product going to market.
The sonarworks correction curves are designed primarily for professionals who use phones to mix music releases. I wish I could apply this to my A/K KANN for the Sony MDR Z7 cans. Therefore, when making a list of what headphones to consider for purchase, I'll use reviews that actually have some real world data to assist in the evaluation. The final decision always comes down to what sounds the best for the price range I'm willing to spend. So, if I find that headphone A is 50% of headphone B, and headphone A gets 95% or closer to headphone B, then I'll chose headphone A, and use the savings elsewhere. An example of that IMHO is the Stax SR-007 vs the SR-009. The SR-009, to me, is not worth the extra cost, as the SR-007 actually sounds better (to me).
I totally get the concept of letting one's listening experience be the final judge of what cans to get. Since all of our hearing is different, getting a group of audiophiles to agree on what headphone setups are best is a bit like herding cats, :green:
Sadly, I think price subconsciously drives opinion as to what is better.
For many people, price does indeed drive a lot of subconscious decisions. Which is one reason, when I attend a show, or go to a dealer showroom, or attend something like Canjam, I never, ever ask the price of anything. It makes the whole demo/listening process so much simpler.
-
For many people, price does indeed drive a lot of subconscious decisions. Which is one reason, when I attend a show, or go to a dealer showroom, or attend something like Canjam, I never, ever ask the price of anything. It makes the whole demo/listening process so much simpler.
Excellent point. Well taken. :thumb:
-
Price does not influence me, I go purely on sound quality. One headphone I really like and if I was on a budget, I would get is the Sennheiser PX100-II at £30 I would take this headphone over a Ultrasone Edition 10 at about £2000ish I think it was at the time.
The PX100-II is a real bargain.
-
The actual auditioning process is very, very important...I was so close to buying the HD800s...in the cart ready to shoot...
Then someone tells me you ought to go and listen to them....etc...
Sometimes its hard to go to a place and listen, because of the logistics etc..
Im my case I have a reputable dealer just a few miles away that I havent been inside in years..thinking they
are only home video/audio and high end 2 ch setups...boy was I shocked.
I found myself listening to the Focals 15 min from my house on a $20,000 tranport player!
If I hadnt done this I would be telling you all how great my HD800s are! :>)
But in all fairness, price IMO plays a role in can I afford these?
$1500 is still big bucks for me being retired....and when that item that you have heard and really like AND the price drops $500.
Well...some common sense comes into the picture here for me!! :duh:
Also I would not put my decision making into any one review or opinion....we all can go out anf find a positive review of sorts on most of our stuff.
It takes more than one to convince me especially if I am buying blind.
Also I still find it hard to understand all the verbose adjectives that we all use in describing our personal audio nirvana...
The ultimate way to be sure IMO is listen and then buy.
Take some material you know / like etc...and go audition...
It will take the pain out of chasing that elusive perfect experience...
Ok...time for a beer!!
:>)
Alex
-
I don't know if this kind of thing matters to you, but grado headphones (and cartridges) are hand made in Brooklyn. A family run business with only 2 dozen employees (iirc).
I personally like supporting small businesses wherever their located, but that still secondary to sound.
From their website:
Grado Labs is a Brooklyn based company that hand makes headphones and cartridges. Family run since 1953, Grado has seen three generations: Joseph, John, and Jonathan Grado. As Ars Technica says, “…on a quiet street in south Brooklyn is a manufacturing operation that produces some of the most renowned headphones… it's just the Grados in their narrow townhouse making the little-known, well-loved line of headphones.”
-
It does t some..I bought two sets of Grados, but never could get used to the fit on my wars, the earpads were just too unconfortable.
I Personally like supporting local folks here in the states, but its a big workd out there and we all freedom of choice.
I have my share of several audio OEMs in the states, and in the world.
Alex
-
Thanks for a very lively discussion. I’m going to have to frequent this circle more regularly! I found a dealer about 20 min from my home that has both the HD800s and the Clears available for demo. I will try to make it out there sometime hopefully soon to try them out. I think for me, these two are the big contenders. I love the wooden look of the ZMfs but would have to go solely on reviews since these are basically made to order. They are also handmade in Chicago (my original home town) but I can’t justify paying that much money for a pair of cans I’ve never heard before. I’m curious about the grado 3000e but from what I’ve heard from a lot of you, Grado may not be the most comfortable to wear for long periods of time. Also, dealers (mine in particular) tend not to stock the higher end Grados.
-
adydula I agree with you it’s important to listen before you part with your money, I never take a review or people's hearsay as gospel.
For me personally I always go to the dealers have a listen and then usually take equipment home and use in my environment with the rest of my kit before I buy, that way you really know. Even just listening at the dealers is not enough.
I remember many many years ago, I went to my dealers when I was upgrading to listen to a NAIM 72 pre, Hi-Cap power supply and 140 amp. At the dealers it sounded nice and I liked it, I took it home for the weekend. I could not wait to get it back the following week, it was horrible. If I had paid the money, I would have regretted it less than a week later.
You probably thinking how could he like it and hate it after a few days? Well let me describe it like this, let’s say you meet this girl or guy you like and they look fantastic. Imagine you got to go out with them, then you discover they are a pain in the ass and high maintenance.
So basically I never part with my money without listening first and I always advise everyone that ask for my opinion to do the same, never ever take anyone’s word as gospel just because they like something does not mean you are going to like it.
-
adydula I agree with you it’s important to listen before you part with your money, I never take a review or people's hearsay as gospel...
There was a time when I’d take a risk, especially when it came to buying something “used” that is otherwise can only be purchased new direct by the vendor. If you buy the product new, the vendor usually has something in the way of a trial period to ensure your satisfaction. If can’t afford to buy new, or you just want to save a few bucks and dodge the delay of breaking in the new item, you can resell the item and hopefully recover all your money if it doesn’t work out. It’s a bit of a hassle but I’ve come out okay for the most part doing that sort of thing. Anytime I made a bad decision that resulted in a lo$$, I’d reframe that experience and looked at it as an education.
For me personally I always go to the dealers have a listen and then usually take equipment home and use in my environment with the rest of my kit before I buy, that way you really know. Even just listening at the dealers is not enough.
I’ve been wowed in a showroom but left unimpressed if not disappointed in my home. You can’t know what you’re getting into unless you try it in your own home. Even if you think you know your buddies system and room well enough that won’t necessarily translate into the same experience in your system and room.
-
jawks,
I am glad too this is a lively and honest, open and candid discussion....without throwing stones at each other...its refreshing to find a bunch of folks that really like music and
enjoy the technology as well....
Welcome to the circle again and hope you contribute often.
Alex
-
Thanks, Alex. I've appreciated all the diverse feedback. Definitely plan to keep contributing!
-
Wind Chaser I don’t buy used so I am okay on that front.
I love to open new things and you also have the full warrantee from the manufacture and the satisfaction you can always go back to the dealer / manufacturer should you have issues. So having to pay new price is no big deal. I don’t change kit that often, so when it comes time to changing kit I feel like I have had my moneys worth.
-
jawks,
Thank you for initiating this thread. :thumb: I've found the dialogue useful and informative because I have a pair of HD650 headphones that I purchased used about 5(?) years ago. It wasn't until about one year ago that I began wondering if I could increase my enjoyment by upgrading to a better pair. [I went through the same process with my audio speakers - and I'm delighted with the result.]
I hope you will return to announce your decision and your listening impressions. Such input benefits others.
Michael
-
Michael,
Thanks for your reply. I will be sure to post my listening impressions and final decision. I may not have quite the technical savvy as many, but I can describe my subjective listening experiences as best as possible.
Albert
-
Anybody have any experience with the Campfire Cascade headphones? I've read some interesting reviews of these cans - some say they aren't for everyone - but I'm curious about any impressions if you have these.
-
Nope never heard of them...
Alex
-
I've been to Campfire Audio's headquarters located about 90 miles north of me in Portland, OR. I went there to check out a couple pairs of IEMs. The over-ear phones hadn't been released at the time - I believe. I posted my impressions on AC in this circle, no doubt. I came to the conclusion that their higher-end (top of the line?) IEMs were damned sweet, but that I'd need to buy a personal digital audio device to maximize their sound potential. I'd hoped to be able to simply plug them into my iPhone, but discovered the iPhone + high-end IEMs sounded like crap.
-
I love the wooden look of the ZMfs but would have to go solely on reviews since these are basically made to order. They are also handmade in Chicago (my original home town) but I can’t justify paying that much money for a pair of cans I’ve never heard before. I’m curious about the grado 3000e but from what I’ve heard from a lot of you, Grado may not be the most comfortable to wear for long periods of time. Also, dealers (mine in particular) tend not to stock the higher end Grados.
If you like the sound signature of the HD650's, but want more clarity and soundstage, the ZMF should be on your list. I have a pair
of Atticus that I bought after a very short listen at a get together. Zack is great to deal with and has a very good ear.
Hibuck....
-
Thanks, Hibuck! The ZMF's I'm potentially interested in are the open-back ones such as the Auteur, Aeolus, and maybe even the Verite. I know they just released the Verite closed, and I'm interested to hear what people have to say about that vs the open back version.
-
So, I had my first chance to hit up my local shop and audition a few of these cans. Unfortunately, I was only able to stop in for about 45 minutes after work and realize that I simply need more time. I brought my own HD650s and my Fiio M9 DAP but will plan on bringing my laptop and probably also my Chord Mojo. The shop had a LOT of higher end headphones for auditioning, including the Utopia, Clear, Stellia, Ananda, Sundara, HE1000, LCD2, LCD3, LCDX, Aeon closed, Ether flow, VOCE, and HD800s. I didn't look carefully at the provided amplification and source components, since I brought my own for this audition, but I know one component was an Aurender. The beauty was that I was able to sit by myself undisturbed in a small quiet dedicated listening room with all of the headphones available for the sampling ... it was amazing.
Given my limited time, I listened to the Clear, HD800s, Ananda, and Aeon closed and did some A/B testing with my HD650s. All of the playback was through my Fiio M9, which I realize was not the best amplification but it will certainly be one of the components I use at home. I listened mostly to jazz (Keith Jarrett Trio recordings on ECM, Bill Charlap Trio, Miles Davis "My Funny Valentine" album) and some classical (Radu Lupu performing Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto on Decca). Next time I go back, I'll definitely be more selective about the recordings I use to audition these headphones.
I apologize if my use of descriptive terms below is improper!
I probably spent the most time with the Clear. I could really appreciate the midrange, which was dynamic and more forward than what I was used to on my HD650's, and the bass was well extended (for my tastes) and tight. In comparison with my HD650's, I could hear more detail but in a very musical way. That's probably why I kept putting the Clear back on. I did a brief comparison with the Utopia (only brief because I don't have the budget for the Utopia so I'm not going to even try to get myself hooked), and I have to say I didn't find that the Utopia was substantially better than the Clear. However, this could be due to a lot of factors, including music selection, amplification, etc.
I regret to say that I was not thrilled with the HD800s. Again, music selection and amplification probably had a LOT to do with this, but I found the sound to be somewhat thin and not as full as the Clear. I also found the bass to be a bit lacking for my tastes. I was waiting to be blown away by a wide soundstage, but it wasn't happening. Next time, I will definitely have to try it out with better amplification to give it another chance.
I was pleasantly surprised by the Ananda. While the Ananda didn't have the same dynamic punch as the Clear to my ears, it was pretty neutral sounding and had some nice soundstaging and imaging, particularly with the classical recording I used. I was not expecting this. I need to hear this again.
I would've liked to audition the Aeon Flow open, but they only had the closed. I was only able to sample this for a couple of minutes, so I don't want to make any statements about it.
So those are my initial thoughts. After Round 1, the Clear would appear to be my favored headphone, but at least another round of auditioning is in order. I'm thinking I may have to return tomorrow.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199158)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199159)
-
Nice reporting jawks.. I wish I had an audio shop like that near me to listen to a variety of headphones..
Good luck with your final selection.. I'm sure you'll enjoy them.
Jerry
-
Excellent write up Jawks. Thanks for posting your impressions. Hope you keep us in the loop as you continue your search.
-
Thanks everyone!
I brought my bag of gear and music to work ... hoping to check out a little early and head over for more listening this afternoon. I'll probably use their digital source component (I brought 7-8 CDs) and amplification today. I've also brought a notebook to take notes (sounds old fashioned, but I like a good pencil and paper) so hopefully I'll have more details to report later!
Albert
-
jawks like I said before the HD800 takes no prisoners.
If they have a Focal Elear there, I would like to know what you think if you compare it to the Utopia and Clear. For me both of those models make the Elear sound like it’s broken.
-
toocool4 I did not see an Elear on the shelf, but I can check again today. Will keep you posted!
-
Cool. I see Hifiman in the picture you posted, the HE1000 is worth a look too but just a bit more pricy than what you are looking at.
-
Yes, I thought I might try that HE1000 today, but I have to be careful ... it is quite a bit more than I would want to spend on headphones.
-
jawks because I don’t change things very often, what I tend to do is do my research as in listen to as many things as I can try. Once I have made up my mind, if what I want is a bit more than my first budget. I just go without and save more to get what I really like / want. So the way I see it with you is, you already have a good headphone in the HD650 so having to wait a bit longer will not be a hardship and the wait will be worth it. A lot of people do incremental upgrade, with the eye on the next thing. The money they spend on the incremental upgrade they will never get back, I say ignore the incremental. Wait till you can afford what you want / like. Makes more sense to me unless you like changing kit every 5 minutes.
-
Those are good words of wisdom. I would have to agree with you. I'm not in a rush to buy at this very moment and could postpone a purchase until I have sufficient funds if I found that one special model. At the same time, I think I would find it hard to justify to myself spending more than $2000 on a pair of headphones. Part of me would always be afraid to accidentally damage it. :)
-
The other difficulty is having so many great models from which to choose. There is no "perfect" headphone, as some do some things really well, and others do other things really well. I can understand how some folks in this hobby have multiple headphones in their collection! However, I prefer to stick to one or maybe a couple of models that I really really like and make the most use out of them. I hate watching equipment languish.
-
I think justifying a price all depends on how much headphone listening means to you? I only ever use headphones on the move and at work at my desk, I use headphones 5 days a week on my daily commute to and from work. So I can justify it. The rest of the time i listen to my home system and i listen to music every day, so all my money is in that.
If it’s not that important to you or you think you will not use it that much then don’t spend the money.
Yes what you say is true nothing is perfect, so pick the one that closely matches what you want and be done with. :)
-
There is a real price/performance ratio at work here. Once one realizes that there are NO headphones that provide a flat response across the frequency spectrum, then it becomes a matter of which phones deviate the least from flat, have low distortion, and good channel balance.
Another question is how are they going to be used, and what setup do you plan to use with it. If noise isolation is an issue, then closed back phones are the preferred option. If the environment is quiet, then open back is the preferred option.
The other big question is source and amplification. If the phones are are going to be used for portable listening, then models with very low impedance are the ones to evaluate. Some portable players such as the KANN have a high power option, but that only goes so far. On the other hand, if the phones are only for home use with a dedicated headphone amp, that opens up other headphones to consider.
Good luck with your decision.
-
Those are good words of wisdom. I would have to agree with you. I'm not in a rush to buy at this very moment and could postpone a purchase until I have sufficient funds if I found that one special model. At the same time, I think I would find it hard to justify to myself spending more than $2000 on a pair of headphones. Part of me would always be afraid to accidentally damage it. :)
This is exactly how I feel about upgrading. I upgraded (to me) my HD 650s three or four years ago and threads like these make me curious about upgrading again. I'm sure there are better headphones out there so the upgrade bug is always pulling. Last night though, I spent some quality time listening to my Beyers and thought, man this sounds terrific.
While I'm still following this thread with interest, my upgrade bug is under control for the time being.
-
Upgrade urges are real!!! :D
I am always curious how other stuff works....and my TOTL Beyer T1's still sound and work great...
Adding a pair of Senn HD600's open my eyes to another great but different sound presentation..
Liking these both very much albiet so different, I was wondering how the big brothers HD800s might sound in comparison to the HD600's...
But the one thing that changed was going to a place and auditioning headphones....
...and now I have these Focal Clears a third and another great sound presentation...
Its a great time in audio and a great time to "upgrade" or just try something different!!
Alex
-
Upgrade urges are real!!! :D
I am always curious how other stuff works....and my TOTL Beyer T1's still sound and work great...
Adding a pair of Senn HD600's open my eyes to another great but different sound presentation..
Liking these both very much albiet so different, I was wondering how the big brothers HD800s might sound in comparison to the HD600's...
But the one thing that changed was going to a place and auditioning headphones....
...and now I have these Focal Clears a third and another great sound presentation...
Its a great time in audio and a great time to "upgrade" or just try something different!!
Alex
The nice thing about headphones is they are much easier than speakers to just have multiple pairs to meet different needs/moods. I have a friend that has JH Audio 13s for portable needs, the 650s for gaming and the Meze Empyreans for music. I guess I'm the same way too, but not as insane as him - I have the Beyer T1s for music/movies and the Alclair Curve or Etymotic 3XR for portable. Guess I need to take up gaming so I can justify another headphone purchase, lol!
-
After another two hours of serious auditioning, I walked away from the shop with a pretty clear idea of what I wanted as an upgrade from my HD650. It was a tough choice, and my final decision was not the one I initially thought I would make.
I put in my order for the Sennheiser HD800s!
After my first audition during which I briefly listened to the Clear, Utopia, Ananda, Aeon Flow, and HD800s, mostly using my own FiiO M9 as the source and amplification, I was initially not impressed with the HD800s. However, I wasn't ready to write them off, because I had read that these cans need the right amplification to really do their magic. So for the second round, I used the shop's components to do the audition: a Woo CD transport coupled with the Simaudio Moon NEO 430HAD. I brought several CDs, including the following:
Diana Krall - All for You (Impulse)
Miles Davis - My Funny Valentine (Sony)
Jean-Guihen Queyras - Bach Cello Suites (Harmonia Mundi)
Dave McKenna in Madison (Arbor Records)
Hank Mobley - Soul Station (Audio Wave XRCD24)
Manfred Honeck/Pittsburgh SO - Beethoven Symphony 5 and 7 (Reference)
Andrew Litton/Bergen PO - Stravinsky Petrouchka and Rite of Spring (BIS)
Polyphony - Lauridsen: Nocturnes and other choral works (Hyperion)
I initially rotated between the Clear, Utopia, HD800s, Ananda, HE1000, and Aeon Flow, but as time went on, it came down to the Clear and the HD800s. I was expecting to favor the Clear, but as I did more A/B comparisons, I realized that there were certain sonic qualities that drew me more to the HD800s. In particular, I really liked the openness, transparency, and natural sound of the HD800s. On the track "Dirait-on" from "Lauridsen: Nocturnes and other choral works", for example, the voices of the choir were so beautifully and realistically rendered that I almost felt like the choir was right in front of me. One could also hear the air around each group of singers. Don't get me wrong - the Clear also did a fantastic job with reproducing the voices and layers of the singers, but the HD800s gave me a little more sonic bliss to my ears. Queyras' recording of Bach's Cello Suites is one of my absolute favorites of these works and, in my opinion, one of the best recorded (in a chapel). Both the Clear and the HD800s captured the rich and full tone of the cello and the ambience of the venue, but once again, I just felt that the HD800s had the edge in terms of transparency. With the orchestral recordings, I was very pleased with instrument separation and imaging with both the Clear and the HD800s. Woodwinds were reproduced by both cans with amazing clarity. The Clear sounded a bit more forward in terms of presentation, and, to my ears, the soundstage didn't have quite the same height as that of the HD800s. I was also very pleased with bass clarity and depth of the HD800s, particularly audible during tympani passages.
So, while I was 99.99% certain I was going to walk away from the shop with a pair of the Clears when I entered, I ended deciding on the HD800s. Too bad the shop didn't actually carry the Sennheiser product line; they just had a pair of HD800s for comparison with their other cans. Alex, it looks like we had the mirror opposite experience. You were dead set on the HD800s but ended up getting the Clear, right?
Thanks to all of you for all of your input and comments last week! I found them to be very insightful and helpful, and they certainly did help shape my philosophy when looking for an upgrade to my HD650's.
Out of curiosity, for those of you who own the HD800s, are there any particular amps or amp/DAC combos that you feel really bring out the best of these cans? I thought the Simaudio Moon 430HAD was pretty darn good (and it should, for its price), but I've heard that the HD800s also does well with the Headamp GS-X mk2 and the Schiit Ragnarok. Any thoughts?
-
Jawks,
Congratulations on your headphone selection, the Senn HD 800s is a great choice. I have mine now
for about six weeks and as I go through my music library, I’m always amazed at the way songs are
presented especially instruments having there own space.
I’m using a Mac Mini into a Chord Qutest Dac USB input. The amp I’m using with the HD800s is the
Darkvoice 336se tube amp.. I think it sounds wonderful but I’m thinking of trying some better tubes
to see if they would make any difference or upgrading to a better tube amp.. but I haven’t made that
decision at this time.. I’m getting that itch again so something no doubt will happen before the year is up..
I feel the Senn’s might require a better amp to get to their full potential as you heard with your demo..
The biggest improvement I’ve made to my desktop system besides the headphones is the Chord Dac.
While I’ve had just a few dac’s over the years the Chord opened my ears. I started to hear things that
never seemed present before.. Instruments sounded more natural with greater decay. I could hear
deeper into the music.. Yep, no plans on upgrading the dac..
Happy Listening,
Jerry
-
Hey jawks hope you enjoy your new order. 8)
Like I said before there is no substitute for listening for yourself as only you know what you like. :thumb:
By the way you did not say if you tried the Elear?
-
They didn't have the Elear available to sample, so unfortunately I wasn't able to audition it with the rest.
-
Congrats on your choice, although I don't think you could have made a wrong one given your parameters. Here's to many years of happy listening.
-
Thank you very much! Appreciate the support of everyone in this Circle!
-
They didn't have the Elear available to sample, so unfortunately I wasn't able to audition it with the rest.
To be honest it’s not in the same league as the ones you tried and ended up with.
I just wanted to see if you thought the same as me with regard to Elear Vs Clear & Utopia
-
Yes, I wish I could've done that, too. I've heard some reviewers say that the Elear comes pretty darn close to the Clear.
-
I've heard some reviewers say that the Elear comes pretty darn close to the Clear.
It’s not. It’s as close as a VW Golf is to a Porsche 911
-
It’s not. It’s as close as a VW Golf is to a Porsche 911
That's a exaggeration. The HD800S is not doubt better, but it's not THAT much better. Audiophiles wind up paying a lot more for smaller improvements above a certain price point.
This is especially true with headphones, as NONE of them provide a flat frequency response. EQ with headphones can transform the unit from pedestrian to very good to excellent if done correctly.
Having said all that, congrats on your selection! I'm sure you will be happy with it.
-
Great choice!
Yup, I was going to get the HD800's and went with the clears...
The $999 sale price did it for me in the end....retirement budget etc... :D
But I have the HD600's yes not 800's for sure, but many folks like the 600 and 800 and except for the soundstage IMO they are very similar.
Many folks even when having the 800's still like and some like them more than the 800...now when you compare a $300 600 with a $1500 800 thats
saying something...the 600s have been around since the dinosaurs roamed the earth!! :D
So that was another reason for the clears, just to get another really great but different sound.
Finding out there are lots of good stuff out there, and many flavors, and none are perfect...buts its fun trying to find perfection.
Whether its with eq'ing or headphone selection!
CONGRATULATIONS on your choice....now go get a great amp that pairs really well with them!
(Bottlehead Mainline, or BH Crack)..
Alex
-
Yes, thanks, Alex! As you already know, I've already initiated a thread on amp selection!