[goryu]

That's the point.  It's been identified that the shortcomings you mentioned can be reduced by providing additional measurements not currently provided with the reviews.  The additional measurements outlined can provide additional insight,  and that's a good thing.


I'm not saying it's perfect and solves the objective/subjective impressions.  Just saying the additional measurements can only help.

You can take all the measurements you want, they won't solve the inherent flaw in your logic nor resolve the fundamental incongruity in correlating objective performance and subjective impressions, which by definition are unmeasureable.

[WGH]

For myself, I prefer to build a system with the lowest measured distortion, the amp is usually the least offending component from that regard. Speakers and the room add far more distortion than most modern amps. I would rather use dsp to add what ever special sauce gets me happy as it is much more controllable in every way.

So far this discussion has been going around in circles with not many concrete examples. We can talk about theory all day long but actual physical products is what listen to. In the end, I buy products that make my brain happy, when it gets bored I get something else.

What electronics and speakers would be included in your preferred system? What are you using now? My system is listed in my profile.

If I was looking to build a low measured distortion system what would you recommend? I have heard the Benchmark amps in a few systems and they weren't my cup of tea. We have an energetic audiophile group here in Tucson. We meet at members homes, drink a few beers and hear new music. Everyone's system sounds different which is fun, then we plug our favorite electronics into their systems and that is even more fun. We learn a lot.

Do EE's have measuring parties?

[goryu]

So far this discussion has been going around in circles with not many concrete examples. We can talk about theory all day long but actual physical products is what listen to. In the end, I buy products that make my brain happy, when it gets bored I get something else.

What electronics and speakers would be included in your preferred system? What are you using now? My system is listed in my profile.

If I was looking to build a low measured distortion system what would you recommend? I have heard the Benchmark amps in a few systems and they weren't my cup of tea. We have an energetic audiophile group here in Tucson. We meet at members homes, drink a few beers and hear new music. Everyone's system sounds different which is fun, then we plug our favorite electronics into their systems and that is even more fun. We learn a lot.

Do EE's have measuring parties?

If you have been paying attention to my comments the last thing you would expect me to do is recommend something other than to seek what makes you happy.

[Freo-1]

Shame there are no measurements to back his statements. Are there going to be any measurements at all in this thread? I asked directly before and you haven't answered.

Just received an update regarding the Class D amp from Atma--Sphere as follows:


One of the issues you have with measuring distortion in a class D amp is the residual; what's left over of the switching frequency after the filter. If all goes well, its a small sine wave at the switching frequency.That sine wave interferes with getting a good distortion reading so it has to get additional filtering so the distortion analyzer can show what the audio distortion is. A good filter is expensive and difficult to find; we did find a nice Audio Precision filter just recently and are working to set it up with our analyzer right now. Then we can show the distortion and its spectra with much greater accuracy. In the pandemic finding filter has been unusually tricky!

The requested data is being worked on, and should hopefully be available soon. 

[Freo-1]

You can take all the measurements you want, they won't solve the inherent flaw in your logic nor resolve the fundamental incongruity in correlating objective performance and subjective impressions, which by definition are unmeasureable.

Agree to disagree.  The more and better measurements that are made available, the more informed decision the consumer can make, if so inclined.   We have moved past 70's Japanese receivers, and the spec wars of that time period.  I'm confident that engineers do use subjective listening along with measurements to improve their wares.  It is illogical to assume otherwise.


WGH has stated these issues rather well, I reckon.   

[goryu]

Agree to disagree.  The more and better measurements that are made available, the more informed decision the consumer can make, if so inclined.   We have moved past 70's Japanese receivers, and the spec wars of that time period.  I'm confident that engineers do use subjective listening along with measurements to improve their wares.  It is illogical to assume otherwise.


WGH has stated these issues rather well, I reckon.

Sure, the more measurements the better for those interested in objective performance. For the subjectivist crowd, not so much. No one has argued that engineers don't listen to their designs- what does differentiate many is that some tune the sound in certain ways that they find pleasing or to fit a target market's preferences. Others don't. Just by choosing a certain topology one can infer what direction the designer is taking in many cases.

[JohnR]

fundamental incongruity in correlating objective performance and subjective impressions, which by definition are unmeasureable.

Isn't something like say the Harman target curve for headphones a correlation between objective performance and subjective impressions?

[JohnR]

Do EE's have measuring parties?

Well this is a bit off track but you don't have to be an EE to measure, at least not for acoustic measurements. I was shown how to use REW by a non-EE, for instance, at a "party" and have participated in sessions where measurements were used to make improvements. It's more interesting and engaging than just passive listening, suggest you try it

[goryu]

Isn't something like say the Harman target curve for headphones a correlation between objective performance and subjective impressions?

It is an attempt to produce a frequency weighted response that appeals to the widest range of listeners:

"Usually, designers make headphones samples, test them on a targeted group of listeners, then tweak the design and retest until most listeners are pleased. But with Harman curve, designers could tailor-make headphones targeted at a specific group of listeners with similar sound preferences rather than the usual “shooting in the dark” process."

As I have related, there have been many such attempts to tailor sound to appeal to the masses. As the paper referenced in the Harman study concluded, there isn't any 1 curve that appeals to all, rather they found in their research:

"Of course, even Harman uses different variations of the target curve on their headphones. The reason is that every person hears differently, so there is no universal headphone sound to please them all. The latter was also apparent in testing.

    Around 64% of listeners, even those working in the audio field, enjoyed the Harman curve the most. Almost all Harman curve lovers were younger than 50.

    15% of listeners preferred more bass. In practice, up to 6dB elevation below 300Hz, and 1dB boost above 1kHz. This group consisted of younger males, which is also a target audience for JBL headphones.

    The remaining 21% of users, enjoyed less bass. The low-end was reduced up to 3dB, while the 1dB boost above 1kHz stayed the same. In this group, you find primarily females and older listeners."

I believe this corroborates my earlier comment that correlations of sounds preferences with measureable objective performance are a weak predictor is general and a poor predictor on a personal basis. Such research and implementation may be of benefit to producers trying to target the largest segment of a market, but it doesn't allow an individual consumer to predict if they will "like" a particular product based on objective measurements. For speaker or headphone makers, it is of obvious utility but for makers of amps, etc., not so much.

[shroman420]

There are so many things that impact a listening experience that just can't be measured.  I think it's funny how we always try to quantify things and measure them, then assign some sort of value to those measurements.  Maybe it's a way for us to find things to argue about.