[Roger A. Modjeski]

I agree nobody has actually tested the fuses, and the fact the HiFi Tuning fuses were misused by a customer means NOTHING, as a high break fuse could be replaced by a slow blow fuse of ANY make. But the fact the customer was misinformed somehow makes HiFi Tuning fuses bad? That's ridiculous. And the assumptions made by "experts" here are many times similarly ridiculous.

I think this thread should be locked, it's going nowhere and accomplishing nothing except generating animosity. 

On thing is for sure, I'm out.

 Hi Dave,

I am the nobody who has tested the fuses. The customer did not misuse the fuse. He was told the fuse was suitable for his application. Even Miles Astor at PF, who has direct information from the factory suggests them as replacement for the high breaking fuses in his CJ. He goes further to say that a tube failure is inevitable so have more on hand.

Please read reply #70 on this thread, perhaps you missed it.

After seeing how and analyzing why the HI FI Tuning fuse damaged the RM-9 and will damage other amps that have tube fuses I called the importer. I asked the question as a customer would. "My amplifier specifies high breaking ceramic fuses, will your fuses work". He said "since they are ceramic they will work just fine". I can assume he still naively tells people that all ceramic fuses are high breaking, including his.

Then I contacted and exchanged several emails with the MAKER OF THE FUSE. He though they were fine for tube fuses. Now tell me who am I or any user supposed to ask?

[DaveC113]

..................

[Tyson]

Start a collection thread for Tyson's ABX box and have vendors start sending him stuff.
I might be hesitant because I suspect he's one of those iso-ward room ultra precision studio pan-pot artificial constructs types and I'm more in the Toole/Olive/Fincham/Linkwitz school. Plus I have my own preferences stated as such.
But it would be a start.

cheers,

AJ

Uhm, say what?

[Roger A. Modjeski]

It's just seems like you were given the wrong info and this is a case of misapplication rather than the fuse not working properly. It's possible you talked to someone who works for the maker of the fuses and they didn't have a clue and gave you bad advice. It happens all the time. You're pretty quick to condemn them, as someone who wants to be extremely stringent and scientific about so many "audiophile" things. This is somebody's business and livelihood as well, and you are bashing them publically without enough evidence to warrant it imo. Your single incident does not make it a fact that the fuses won't operate correctly when used appropriately.

Look, I'm just going to stay away because arguing about these things is an exercise in futility in most cases. IME, almost everything you do to a system or room is audible... but only large, obvious changes are worth worrying about. Everyone needs to choose for themselves how particular they are going to be about the details.

And the facts about audibility of many things are unknown. Neither side is really grasping the whole truth imo. I think it's ok to leave some things as simply "I don't know" rather than forming strong opinions either way.

There's still lots of folks out there that think all amplifiers sound exactly the same and you are deluding yourself about the superiority of any particular topology.

I asked the person who developed them and sells them. Is there a more informed person I should ask?

I have stated my evidence. I see how the fuses operate. I have tested them. I understand fusing. I have explained in the simplest terms what happens when a fuse blows in a high breaking situation. What more evidence do I need?

I have seen no warning from the maker or distributor that these fuses are not suitable for tube protection. I have seen several instances that suggest using them in inappropriate applications by reviewers who have not tested them or perhaps even asked if they are appropriate.

It appears you believe that it is perfectly OK for someone to misrepresent and make specious claims for a product as a means of a livelihood.

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Uhm, say what?

Yea, I am confused by this also.  Perhaps AJ can clarify his statement. It sounds rather insulting to me.

I am often confused by AJs comments as you might note in our exchanges.

[Freo-1]

Yea, I am confused by this also.  Perhaps AJ can clarify his statement. It sounds rather insulting to me.

I am often confused by AJs comments as you might note in our exchanges.

You are not alone.       There seems to be some sort of alternate universe there.

[Freo-1]

Hi Fast Fred,

Congratulations on a fast topic. Over 600 views in one day and so many responses is notable. Here is my experience.

I had several email exchanges with the maker of Tuning Fuses and got the same Red Herring responses. My first experience with his product was in an RM-9 MKII that came to me for service with eight tuning fuses (one for each tube) in place of my specified HIGH BREAKING ceramic fuses. The tuning fuse's inability to do their job properly had blown the wirewound cathode resistor, which I had never seen before. I study every failure and this one caught my attention because it takes a lot of energy to blow that resistor. Its wire is much stouter and of a very high melting material, any fuse should go first.

Of course I opened up the fuse and looked at its construction. It was made in such a way as to be the worst possible fuse for that application. I called the distributor here and asked is it was a high breaking fuse and suitable for a tube fuse. He didn't know what that was. I said well the fuse specified for my amp is high breaking and ceramic. He said that because his fuse was ceramic also it must be OK. This is very naive. He doesn't know and perhaps the maker doesn't know that a high breaking fuse is made a different way, though from the outside it looks the same.

These fuses are totally inappropriate for any high voltage DC application such as a tube fuse in an amplifier. What also amazed me is that these fuses cost more than most tubes. I felt sorry for the owner who had been led down this path by irresponsible magazines like Positive Feedback. Not only did this fuse not protect his tube but it did not protect his amplifier.

The maker of these fuses, like many makers of tweaks will certainly get no admiration from me.  What gets me is why so many people want to play with tweaks rather than make real improvements in their system like bi-amping, adding a good subwoofer and simplifying the signal path.

Bingo!  This is an excellent response to the issue, which to me, is nothing more than a snake oil rabbit hole.   I've seen old fuses degrade a signal by acting like a resistor due to age/corrosion factors, but that is about it.  The only way to improve sound from an amp is to modify the design to address any shortfalls, or change out old worn components.

[AJinFLA]

Uhm, say what?

Fast Fred is yearning for serious reviews of components. Franks ABX box was suggested as a useful tool to get meaningful results, you seemed to agree and mentioned publishing results. You were saying you were amazed about lack of room treatments at shows.
I suggested to Fred (somewhat jokingly) to start a collection thread to purchase an ABX box for you to do these reviews (since it would be a service to the AC community), including reviews of room treatment products. The only blind testing of room treatments I'm aware of, is by Toole, which showed quite the opposite of what many believe in.
Feel free to converse directly with him (Toole) to avoid any hearsay and misinterpretation. Olive as well.
I eschew their use almost entirely, hence my comments about sending my speakers for review, since they are designed specifically to avoid so called room treatments. But I note that is based on my preferences for sound...and why. I don't find ultra-precision studio constructs as "realism", because I attend mostly live classical/jazz etc. YMMV.

cheers,

AJ

[AJinFLA]

I am often confused by AJs comments as you might note in our exchanges.

Sorry 'bout that. I do interweave (attempted) sarcastic humor on occasion, into deadly serious issues, like "audiophile fuses", which perhaps leads to some haziness. My apologies. It also took about three posts on this topic before I realized I was in your Circle!

cheers,

AJ

[macrojack]

Show some respect and gratitude, please. Roger Modjeski is one of several dozen design engineers who has demonstrated his bona fides over a long and illustrious career in our industry. The fact that he is here providing us with highly credible input and analysis, seemingly out of the goodness of his heart, is something we should be proud to receive. Some of us, however, are selfishly challenging his efforts in an effort to elevate ourselves at the expense of lowering the overall development of this topic. How does it benefit the rank and file among us, if you succeed in prompting him to throw up his hands in frustration and withdraw his participation? This is his paid for Circle, and he could just edit you out of it. He doesn't do that, and I think that speaks positively to his fairness and open-mindedness.

Roger - I'll PM you my address so you can send that amp.

[AJinFLA]

Why don't you want to make an effort to prove a negative (statement you've made?)

Logic is part of the whole EE/Physics thing.

Tell you what : I'm going to get one of these fuse things and decide for myself - albeit one with a money back guarantee, then there's really no financial risk.

That seems like the best recourse of someone who believes in the plausibility of such things. It will say nothing about the efficacy of the DUT itself, but it will certainly ascertain the response of your perceptions to it, which is all that matters. As I've been saying all along.
If it makes you enjoy your system more, by all means do so. The only concern being, as Roger brought up, it's functionality as an actual fuse!

cheers,

AJ

[AJinFLA]

It appears you believe that it is perfectly OK for someone to misrepresent and make specious claims for a product as a means of a livelihood.

That's the way I see it too. In the "high end" today, no claim is too absurd and if you point that out, you are attacked as a heretic, close minded, deaf, etc. trying to rob someones hungry kids of their fathers living, selling placebos.
I have over time however, due to direct exposure, changed my belief that these are all charlatans. Some obviously are, but many are just believers themselves. Hard to tell the difference, I know.
In the end, they are just serving the market. Supply and demand.

cheers,

AJ

[jarcher]

Logic is part of the whole EE/Physics thing.
That seems like the best recourse of someone who believes in the plausibility of such things. It will say nothing about the efficacy of the DUT itself, but it will certainly ascertain the response of your perceptions to it, which is all that matters. As I've been saying all along.
If it makes you enjoy your system more, by all means do so. The only concern being, as Roger brought up, it's functionality as an actual fuse!

cheers,

AJ

I hope the whole EE/Physics logic is not just to make objective claims without making any effort to actually substantiate them and instead just appeal to authority of it in itself.  That sounds more like a faith-based religious argument than a reason-based scientific one. 

I can see now it's fruitless to ask you despite repeated attempts to provide any details of your negative claim with respect to fuses & sound quality.  Scientific method does allow for negative hypotheses and results, even if they are usually qualified and not meant to apply to all & every circumstance.  Don't need to be an EE or physicist to know that.  If its just that you don't feel like making more specific arguments, it would be more honest to just come out and say that.

[DaveC113]

....................

[JohnR]

Um, it's to do with the design of the circuit and where the fuse appears in it. Typically, most of the power supply is "after" the fuse and the fuse is assumed to be insignificant in any calculation of the circuit performance. (In response to jarcher)

[HsvHeelFan]

Quoted from JohnR:

it's to do with the design of the circuit and where the fuse appears in it.


Exactly!


A fuse, like every thing that is electrical has Inductance, Resistance and Capacitance.    Where the fuse is located within the circuit is what is important.

HsvHeelFan

[srb]

A fuse, like every thing that is electrical has Inductance, Resistance and Capacitance.    Where the fuse is located within the circuit is what is important.

The major legitimate fuse manufacturers have extensive spec sheets that include DC cold resistance, voltage drop, current-time charts, etc., but no Inductance or Capacitance measurements likely because they would be so tiny as to be insignificant.

That seems to make sense considering that we're talking about a one inch long single conductor wire.

Steve

[RDavidson]

Um, it's to do with the design of the circuit and where the fuse appears in it. Typically, most of the power supply is "after" the fuse and the fuse is assumed to be insignificant in any calculation of the circuit performance. (In response to jarcher)

Agreed. But the thing is, a power supply doesn't work within its own bubble and thus is not impervious to outside influences. And a side note, keep in mind that the power supply was designed using someone's test bench outlet / power. Power delivery from the wall can vary from house to house, from city to city etc. I believe this is why it is often recommended that the bias (in tube amps) be set when an amp is received by the customer, to account for this. Since the stability of the power supply affects everything else down the line, I'm not so certain that things before the power supply (fuses, power cables, line conditioners, and all the electricity back to the Hoover Dam) can't influence a machine's performance......even if it is very subtle. Question: If one uses a much thicker and/or longer power cable than the standard 14 gauge 5 FT cable supplied with many components these days, wouldn't the thicker/longer power cord act a bit like a larger capacitor (than the standard cable)? Wouldn't this possibly help consistent power delivery to the machine's power supply? Excuse my ignorance, if this seems like a stupid question. Safety issues aside, if a fancy fuse (prior to the power supply) uses a more conductive filament than a standard fuse, couldn't it possibly help the machine's power supply operate at a slightly more optimal level. Again, I'm just posing questions that seem logical from my limited knowledge base.

[Tyson]

Fast Fred is yearning for serious reviews of components. Franks ABX box was suggested as a useful tool to get meaningful results, you seemed to agree and mentioned publishing results. You were saying you were amazed about lack of room treatments at shows.
I suggested to Fred (somewhat jokingly) to start a collection thread to purchase an ABX box for you to do these reviews (since it would be a service to the AC community), including reviews of room treatment products. The only blind testing of room treatments I'm aware of, is by Toole, which showed quite the opposite of what many believe in.
Feel free to converse directly with him (Toole) to avoid any hearsay and misinterpretation. Olive as well.
I eschew their use almost entirely, hence my comments about sending my speakers for review, since they are designed specifically to avoid so called room treatments. But I note that is based on my preferences for sound...and why. I don't find ultra-precision studio constructs as "realism", because I attend mostly live classical/jazz etc. YMMV.

cheers,

AJ

All my exposure to gear has always been sighted, and it would be interesting to try it blind, that was all I was trying to convey.  I also do blind comparisons with one of my other hobbies on occasion, Scotch tasting, and the results are always interesting. 

As for room treatments, year after year the best sounding rooms at RMAF have some type of treatment. Often the speakers are open baffle and make at least an attempt at controlled directivity.  Its not 100% consistent, but it is a strong trend.

[*Scotty*]

The problem with a fuse is that it behaves as a non-linear resistor whose resistance varies as a function current induced temperature changes.
Scotty