AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Daedalus Audio => Topic started by: diofan56 on 20 Aug 2010, 01:50 am
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Hi Lou!
I'm planning on attending the RMAF this October. I would like to A/B some speaker cables if possible. I want to hear what my basic copper cables sound like as compared to speaker cables that you would recommend. I'm curious to hear how much difference there really is (to my ears). Can this be done?
Dave
diofan56
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Lou will have to give the definitive answer, but I can comment that it would be VERY difficult, if not impossible to do any A/B of speaker cables at any audio show.
First off you would have to have close to the same length cables as used in the demo. You would have to make sure the connectors will fit the binding posts on the speakers and the amps. The amps have to be turned off to change cables. Then turned back on. The Atma-sphere amps being used for RMAF take quite some time to come back up. Filaments have to warm up before the high voltage can be turned on. Then they take time to really sound good.
Usually, at the show, once the amps are turned on Thursday, they are not turned off until Sunday night.
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Wayne pretty well summed it up. anyone is welcome to visit the shop and do A/B comparisons of cables.
actually I encourage that.
thanks,
lou
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Huh?
Why would the speaker cables have to be the same length? A few feet in length won't make any difference.
My cables have banana plugs. That's pretty standard, correct?
So the amps would have to be turned off and back on. Not a big deal. I have to do that with my tube guitar amplifier if I change speaker cabinets. The amps and tubes may need a minute or so to warm up. Again not a big deal.
Dave
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Huh?
Why would the speaker cables have to be the same length? A few feet in length won't make any difference.
My cables have banana plugs. That's pretty standard, correct?
So the amps would have to be turned off and back on. Not a big deal. I have to do that with my tube guitar amplifier if I change speaker cabinets. The amps and tubes may need a minute or so to warm up. Again not a big deal.
Dave
You really think they should stop playing the music for everyone that may or may not buy the products they are trying to sell so that you can hear different cables?? I would think that actually IS a big deal. But hey I could be wrong....
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You really think they should stop playing the music for everyone that may or may not buy the products they are trying to sell so that you can hear different cables?? I would think that actually IS a big deal. But hey I could be wrong....
No, you're right, it is a big deal. Not to mention the disregard for the expensive Atma-Sphere amplifiers that are not guitar amps as well as the fact that the vendors have already politely expressed their thoughts and concerns.
Steve
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Well, I'll tell ya...If I had equipment at a show I would be more than happy to do comparison tests so people can actually hear the differences, if any.
Dave
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Does Lou deal in cables? Just curious...
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Well, I'll tell ya...If I had equipment at a show I would be more than happy to do comparison tests so people can actually hear the differences, if any.
Dave
No offense, but if I had to sit and wait while you switched cables I would probably hang you with your cable :lol:
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Exhibitors have limited time to provide the public the opportunity to hear their products. If you help someone haul gear, set up the room, handle the flow of traffic, deal with all the questions, all the while hoping the public and exhibitor gain some benefit from showing THEIR products to the public I believe your "no big deal" position will change.
I assume you don't own Daedalus speakers so you are looking for a hi definition system that will provide you a comparison. Why can't a local dealer accommodate you where they have time and many open hours to assist you. If you are considering the purchase of Daedalus speakers, buy them and find out Lou's recommendation and demo a pair of those cables from the Cable Company or the manufacturer with a return policy in your own home and system.
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Well, I'll tell ya...If I had equipment at a show I would be more than happy to do comparison tests so people can actually hear the differences, if any.
Dave
Put your money on the line and you can do whatever you want.
Otherwise, respect the comments of Lou and Wayne (who are putting their money on the line) and let it go.
George
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+1 on George's comment.
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Gee George,
If I knew I could get away with your comment I would not have gone to such great lengths to say the same thing so diplomatically. So I guess I am now +3
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Diddo's on Georges comment too :shake:
If you've never setup and ran a room at the show you're not going to understand but be sure to understand this, a manufacturer spends a lot of money for that room to have an opportunity to show and sell their product, not somebody elses. Show's cost a lot of money to participate in and taking the risk of potentially damaging your system because somebody wants to experiment would be a foolish risk. You want the equipment to be running at its very best and you want to keep it stable which turning it off and on isn't doing.
It's not that we don't want to be accommodating to the listener, a show like RMAF is just not the right venue for that type of listening session.
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Hi Lou!
I'm planning on attending the RMAF this October. I would like to A/B some speaker cables if possible. I want to hear what my basic copper cables sound like as compared to speaker cables that you would recommend. I'm curious to hear how much difference there really is (to my ears). Can this be done?
Dave
diofan56
Now that you heard some serious COMMON SENSE on the matter. Let me tell you (firsthand) that going from cheap copper spealer cables to Lou's recommended Dynamic Design cables was a HUGE step up in sound quality. Should be for the price difference. Even the less expensive Kimber 8tc's I demo'ed from cable co. was a a real big step up from those cheap copper cables. This was all tested on Lou's top of the line Ulysses speaker w/AP mod.
As a skeptic, I had cheap copper cables for many years and after less then mere minutes with the Kimbers I could not fathom going back to those cheap'os.
Enjoy the show, wish I coud be there:)
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Berto...I agree there should be a big difference. Telling me that without backing it up with proof is meaningless. Anyone can say anything and they usually do. Especially in hobbies like this. I experienced the same BS when I was buying and selling guitars and amps. I refuse to go through that crap again. I'm not buying anything else unless I hear it first.
Zybar...I do respect them and their comments so don't go around acting like I don't!
I know those shows are expensive and the exhibitors are very busy. I hung around with one at Akfest this year. That poor guy was so tired he could hardly see straight.
I have had an offer via private message to compare some cables after show hours. I'm going to take him up on that and I think him very much for the offer.
Lou telling me I could come to his shop to compare cables is very generous of him. I thank him for that and I would love to do that but I don't have the money to go flying all over the country like you guys.
This thread has given me an idea. Maybe a room could be set aside specifically for people to bring some of their gear in and set it up for comparison purposes. I'll speak with a couple people in charge of shows about this. I'll find out from them if this might work.
Some of you people are just way too nit-picky about every little thing. Jeez! Lighten up!
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I agree there should be a big difference. Telling me that without backing it up with proof is meaningless. Anyone can say anything and they usually do. Especially in hobbies like this. I experienced the same BS when I was buying and selling guitars and amps. I refuse to go through that crap again. I'm not buying anything else unless I hear it first.
I agree as well... At this level and this sort of commitment there should be a big difference from entry level cables to higher end/higher dolor cables.... And some times auditioning everything you would like in the manor you would like, is just not feasible. So, we have to take the word of the collective as truth sometimes... Like you, I am not flying all over the country to see music or go to events and shows like I use to. So relying on the word of others - and by that I mean many others - is what we have to do sometimes. Listen to the 'general' consensus - What does the collective around a certain product believe?
With that said I just wanted to add to the numbers for you, in your research, that at this level, with this speaker line (especially with the AP crossovers!!!) the differences are significant! IMO cable synergy is a subject that comes after the purchase of said speakers... But to start out, I had no problem at all going with Lou's recommendation for the start of my ownership... He will tell you himself and in other threads here, that there are many good cables out there, but that, IMO is a personal journey of system synergy to come after purchas of speakers. And at this level, there is no question that good cables make a big difference... No BS-ing being done here .
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wow, take a day off and see what happens...
thanks guys all for the defense of the exhibitors, but Dave's question was fair, though difficult to accommodate.
the idea of an A/B room has merit though I think it would have to be funded by volunteers and maybe have an entrance fee? also there may be some who would find an A/B room inappropriate? anyhow could be an interesting discussion down at the pub...
maybe they did this workshop a couple years ago when there were a lot of workshops, but one on cables and why they perform differently could be very interesting. I know that as my involvement in sound evolved I went from thinking wire is wire is wire to knowing that the voodoo is real,(at least some of it!) and I have found that there is a huge difference in the performance of cables in extremely revealing systems compared to less revealing. with many systems you just can't hear much of a difference in cables because the speakers/ amp/ source are the limiting factor, I suspect this understanding is why Dave wants to do the A/B?
like others have said , it's about system synergy.
Dave come by the room and say hi, we're all friends here.
maybe if you come in on sunday afternoon and promise to help pack up we'll swap out cables.
thanks,
lou
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Berto...I agree there should be a big difference. Telling me that without backing it up with proof is meaningless. Anyone can say anything and they usually do. Especially in hobbies like this. I experienced the same BS when I was buying and selling guitars and amps. I refuse to go through that crap again. I'm not buying anything else unless I hear it first.
Dave,
I'm just an end user sharing my personal opinion based on my real world experience. Not buying or selling , therefore the only person I need to to prove anything to is ME. Definitely do your own due diligence like I did mine. :thumb: I also agree w,Jriggy find the speakers you like then worry about cables, tweaking, etc after.
I personally could not waste the time/investment of flying to RMAF (as much as I would like too) to check out Lou's speaks. IMO rather put the $ into the gear/music.
As you can tell already, Lou is a great guy and he hooked me up with a Da-rma (w/o AP mod) owner near my house and I spent several hours listening and grinnning from ear to ear.
So now that your investing your time/money to check out his speaks,etc and perhaps be able to do a cable swap, you can then substantiate my rhetoric :wink:
Enjoy!
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Hey there Lou!
Thanks for the reply! I appreciate it!
Help you pack up? I'm more than happy to help you with anything I can. I'll see you there!
Dave
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Gotta love a happy ending. Enjoy RMAF :)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=34457)
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Last year at RMAF, Nordost conducted a series of cable seminars that included A/B testing of Nordost cables against copper wire cables as well as the most expensive Nordost cables compared to their "entry level" cable. Everyone I talked to who attended the seminar told me they clearly heard the difference, even those who did not want to hear a difference. One of the points made was that the more revealing the electronics and speakers, the more important the cables.
Laura
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Last year at RMAF, Nordost conducted a series of cable seminars that included A/B testing of Nordost cables against copper wire cables as well as the most expensive Nordost cables compared to their "entry level" cable. Everyone I talked to who attended the seminar told me they clearly heard the difference, even those who did not want to hear a difference. One of the points made was that the more revealing the electronics and speakers, the more important the cables.
Laura
Good post thank VL
:thumb:
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I've helped Lou out at a couple of the shows and trying to do cable demos in his room, while the show was up and running, would really interfere with his ability to make the best possible statement regarding his products. He and all the vendors take a lot of time to make sure their rooms are as perfect sounding as they can be and throwing in a big variable, like cable swapping, would not be good for him. It would only take one lousy cable and one important reviewer to undo what has taken him years to accomplish.
Still he has found a way to try and satisfy you, which is what Lou does.
By the way, I own a pair of Ulysses in Maple, with the AP crossover and I don't think I've ever heard a better speaker at any price, ever. Driving them with a pair of Herron M1's and alternatively, a pair of Rogue Apollo's. Both are incredible sounding with these speakers. Can't wait for my bass modules.
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Dave,
I'm just an end user sharing my personal opinion based on my real world experience. Not buying or selling , therefore the only person I need to to prove anything to is ME. Definitely do your own due diligence like I did mine. :thumb: I also agree w,Jriggy find the speakers you like then worry about cables, tweaking, etc after.
I personally could not waste the time/investment of flying to RMAF (as much as I would like too) to check out Lou's speaks. IMO rather put the $ into the gear/music.
As you can tell already, Lou is a great guy and he hooked me up with a Da-rma (w/o AP mod) owner near my house and I spent several hours listening and grinnning from ear to ear.
So now that your investing your time/money to check out his speaks,etc and perhaps be able to do a cable swap, you can then substantiate my rhetoric :wink:
Enjoy!
That has to be the way of Demoing any item sold direct in HiFi, particularly heavy items like speakers. You look at the other small manufacturers, Tyler, Reimer, when he was still around. They kept lists of customers happy to Dem for them and connected them up with potential purchasers.
I would actually prefer to go to a home Demo, not a shop. With the latter, you are acutely aware it is their business. You can detect the desparation in some of them, the need to make that sale. I never go to a shop unless I am ready to buy from them, if I like the product. It is quite wrong, in my opinion, to buy elswhere or second hand. Still, you feel under that subliminal pressure.
At a home demo, there is no pressure. You can often take some of your own kit and spend a pleasant few hours, with a fellow enthusiast/obsessive.
Just to remind anyone interested, my AP modded Da-RMas are available to hear in the Southern UK, near Oxford, if anyone is interested. Lou will put you in contact
David