Smaller Alphas?

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markC

Smaller Alphas?
« on: 18 Nov 2003, 11:44 pm »
Any thoughts of a smaller version of the Alphas, or would it just not work? For the price, these seem like a fair deal, but they're so big! What about 5 woofers instead of 9?

LouD

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 12
Smaller Alphas?
« Reply #1 on: 19 Nov 2003, 01:24 am »
I'd second that request.   Seems like you should have a budget line source just to complete the symetry of the GR product line, e.g. similar designs, one low cost, one high.  $450 to $500 per pair, kit only, would be the sweet spot.

Bob Reimer

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 10
    • http://www.creativesound.ca
Mini Alpha
« Reply #2 on: 19 Nov 2003, 01:24 am »
I have a customer who is building mini Alpha rears with 4 NEO8s and 4 woofers per side.  Should be up dand running in the next month or so.

Regards
Bob

Danny Richie

Line sources
« Reply #3 on: 19 Nov 2003, 03:36 pm »
A smaller array will work fine for rear surrounds but for main speakers you are limited as to how long or short it can be.

To behave as a line source it still has to be a line source. When it gets shorter then you are no longer listening in the near field but in the far field.

Plus driver groupings have to be used that will give you the needed impedance and output level.

The Alpha woofers are 8 ohms. Wiring them in 3 groups of 3 gives you 8 ohms again. In other words 3 groups all in series and then those 3 groups are paralleled.

The tweeters (Neo 8's) are 4 ohms. 2 groups of 4 gives you an 8 ohm load again.

2 groups of 2 woofers can be used and you could still have 8 ohms...

2 groups of 4 tweeters will give you 4 ohms...

Using something like 5 woofers simply doesn't work.

Using the Alpha drivers, the current size, is the only really workable option.

Besides guys, no matter how tall it is it will still take up the same amount of floor space.

azryan

Smaller Alphas?
« Reply #4 on: 19 Nov 2003, 07:46 pm »
Danny,

"-Besides guys, no matter how tall it is it will still take up the same amount of floor space.-"

Exactly. I never understood how people looked down on tall speakers (no pun intended)?
It's not like they put plants on top of their shorter speakers?

My Newform 645's were actually a bit taller than the Alphas. Never a prob. for my wife or myself.

I've suggest to people though that they don't need to make the base as large as your plans call for.
I found even before I put the base plate on I woulda had to try very hard to push over an Alpha cabinet on my carpet.

The VMPS RM-40's are about as wide around (though shorter) and they don't have any base at all. In fact a narrower bottom that the rest of the speaker!?

Even so.. they didn't feel too 'tippy' when I heard them and moved them around a bit.

Would you disagree with my suggestion of making a smaller base for anything other than 'just in case/safety' reasons?


LouD,

What are you talkin' about?

If you think the cost of the Alpha kit is high, then so are you. hehe J/K

Seriously though... try to find a lower priced true line source for this price. Either you can't or it won't come close to the clarity, effi. freq. range, etc...

$~2,500 to build your own finished in fully wrapped veneer of your choice.

If you're looking for a ~$500 kit then you're not looking for world class performance. And that's fine, but that's what the Alphas are.

Even at $2,500 that's a very typical modest price for a very good quality mid-level speaker from many great speaker companies, but it's not even close to the cost of these companies top of the line speakers which is what the Alphas should be compared to -as it typically kicks the crap out of them.

There's no better value in speakers IMO. I know that sounds like an overly boastful statement, but it's true from everything I've seen and heard.

If you disagree I'd love to hear about what you think that speaker would be?

"-$450 to $500 per pair, kit only, would be the sweet spot.-"

Yeah.... that would be an awesome price for a world class speaker. Never gonna happen.

You're talking nice monitor speaker prices, not a speaker equal to ~99db point source that can handle a huge amount of power, effortlessly fast/dynamic on both the planars and the woofers, loads the room w/ pretty much full range bass almost totally free of bass modes, pretty much no floor or ceiling bounce.

Why don't you just buy one of Danny's kits in that price range? That's about the best quality you can get for that price.

There's only a few speakers that I think could possibly match or beat the Alphas and you'd need 5 figures for any of them, and I've heard several well known 5 figure speakers that don't do it at all.

You should seriously consider building this kit. It's easy and you'll beat almost everything out there. It's a VERY cheap kit in relative terms. Relative being -world class.

BikeWNC

Smaller Alphas?
« Reply #5 on: 19 Nov 2003, 11:34 pm »
azryan,

Can you tell me how far you sit from the Alphas?  I'm sure it's in one of your posts, somewhere, but it would probably take me a week to read them all to find that info. Also can you give me the basic dimensions of your room and the position you found to work best for the speakers?  Thanks.

Andy

Jason1

Smaller Alphas?
« Reply #6 on: 20 Nov 2003, 02:15 am »
How about using smaller drivers?

azryan

Smaller Alphas?
« Reply #7 on: 21 Nov 2003, 01:19 am »
17.5' wide x 23' deep. I've got an angled ceiling from 8' sides to 10' at center.

Alphas are about 4' from the front and side walls (I probably should not have those distances the same though, but seems fine). Meaning their closest end to the wall.

They're 7' apart. Again... from their closest edge.

And I sit 13' from each of them. They're aimed directly towards center seat (pretty much speakers and seating at ~thirds of the room).

When I first set them up I had them even closer together and sat a little closer too. I liked that and what I wrote my 'review' of them based on, but I think sitting a bit further back and bit wider spacing and more direct toe in improved the openess of the stage.

Was a little more cluttered before.

I've got two windows (that are always sealed up anyway) on the wall behind the speakers so I kinda have to have the Alphas a bit too close or a bit too far apart. I prefer closer.

Danny rec. a much wider spacing between them and even further seating distance, but I didn't feel I could get the same laser sharp center image w/ them so apart (maybe I'll try it again not that they're much more broken in).

I wish I could hear his system to 'see' his soundstage to compare.

The sound of your amp and line level are going to make a BIG effect on the sound so even if we had the same room you might not find my set up to work for you. And just plain old 'preference' comes into play too.

Are you worried about having enough room or just curious about how I set mine or what?


Jason1,

"How about using smaller drivers?"

What do you want smaller driver 'for'?

BikeWNC

Smaller Alphas?
« Reply #8 on: 21 Nov 2003, 01:35 am »
Ryan,

The room I in which I would put the Alphas is 19.5w x 26L with a 9.5h.  

The room is big enough, but I will also have a tv between the speakers which for viewing purposes dictates that the couch be no more than about 12 ft from the screen (40 inch sony).  

My current speakers are 11 ft apart so I sit at the point of the equilateral triangle.  I think the Alphas would work OK it that position, I just don't want to find out that I'm too close to them and end up having to either watch the tv with binoculars or get a bigger one.

Andy

azryan

Smaller Alphas?
« Reply #9 on: 21 Nov 2003, 07:27 pm »
The only thing that might be a prob is the top half octave roll off that's more pronounced at closer distances otherwise the distance should be a prob.

I've moved my couch outta the way and sat in the rolling chair and slid front to back keeping centered and there's just almost nothing recorded that high and assorted CD's I played that I knew had high pitched stuff.

Probably the thing that reaches out that high the most often are drum cymbals and drum cymbals sound awesome on the Alphas. So detailed and realistic.
Better than they sound from the Newform 645's 45" ribbon (my surround speakers now).

I notice no change/roll off when listening to music... OR... I wasn't  listening hard enough, but clearly I was trying to listen to hear a roll off as that was the ONLY point of the test.

Good enough for me.

Note -I can hear beyond 20kHz too so that's not the reason if anyone was thinking that logical thought.

I can always tell when a sine wave sweep stop on several diff. test discs I've got/heard.

Danny also mentioned to me about moving your chair/couch back when doing critical listening so you're sure to have 100% the best soundstage/response.

I've got an RPTV between my Alphas, but it's recessed about a foot and a half behind them so I don't get much reflection, but to be 100% sure I have a nice looking fluffy blanket that I flip up and down over the screen when I'm doing music only. I keep it in place w/ two small weights on the top of the cabinet.

My wife and I like it better than having a big black mirror (the screen) when the TV's off too, so not at all an ugly geek tweaker thing.

If the cloth matches your walls then the TV'll almost disappear (though mine's a 'starry night' sky. hehe).

Now if you've got a 40" plasma (I dunno?) you don't want that sucker to burst into flames w/ a cloth over it, but being hard glass you'd even more-so want to block that reflection.

BikeWNC

Smaller Alphas?
« Reply #10 on: 22 Nov 2003, 05:07 am »
The tv is the large CRT.  At around 300 lbs it ain't going anywhere.  All the discussion about high frequency rolloff in the Alphas just doesn't concern me.  I've found by using my TacT RSC to generate frequency response curves that most system/rooms combos, that I have had, exhibit a natural rolloff in the high frequencies above 15K.  Also, using the TacT, I have created correction curves that produce a flat 20-20K response and let me tell you it is BRIGHT!  The best curves have a slope from the low mids to 20K of up to -6 or 10 db with most that occuring above 15K. I'd include a picture but I've forgotten how to copy the page into paint and then to a jpg.  Perhaps I can figure it out. When you only do it once every 6 months it's hard to remember.

BikeWNC

Smaller Alphas?
« Reply #11 on: 22 Nov 2003, 05:39 am »
Here is the E2 curve that is a popular starting template for room correction.  Notice the rolloff in the upper frequencies.