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Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Wwp347 on 27 Mar 2018, 12:08 am

Title: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Wwp347 on 27 Mar 2018, 12:08 am
I have been looking around for monobloc power for the new M3 triodes that are headed my way. I have usually had a balance system and have very good balanced cables. I have garden hose sized silver speaker cables from an older system which included Dunlavy sixes and audio research Hybrid mono blocks.

I enjoy a full detailed broad soundstage with defined Bass and lack of shrillness on the upper end. Musicality is probably most important.

Found these amps for sale:

1. Bel Canto Design REF 1000M
2. Odyssey Stratos
3. Primaluna Dialogue 7 Mono-block Amplifiers ( not balanced )
4. Pass Labs Aleph 2 monoblocks
5. Vidar monoblocks
6. Nuprime ST-10M. (balanced?).

Thoughts? Recommendations?
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: sumoking on 27 Mar 2018, 03:55 am
Digital Amp Company Cherries Desktop Mono Blocks...
Perfect match for the Spatials M3's

Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: jseymour on 27 Mar 2018, 12:03 pm
Driving my M3TMs with Vidars.  Very happy with the sound.  It was a big step up from the Class D Audio SDS-470 they replaced.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Wind Chaser on 27 Mar 2018, 03:40 pm
Digital Amp Company Cherries Desktop Mono Blocks...
Perfect match for the Spatials M3's

Can't disagree with that. There is Class D and then there is SOTA Class D. Regardless of price, the Cherries lay waste to every tube amp I've heard.  :green:
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: mfsoa on 27 Mar 2018, 11:30 pm
I have not heard a speaker that didn't work perfectly with Digital Amp's amps.
I haven't heard them with Spatials but don't doubt that they would excel there too.
When I get my Mega I know an M3 owner whom I hope to visit...


Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: JackD on 28 Mar 2018, 04:05 am
I've owned M3 TS's and then TM's for two years now and in that time I have tried them with Job 225, Odyssey Kismet, W4S mAmps, Nord One Up, and Nuprime ST-10.  The winner with both configurations of the speaker has been the ST-10.  My Spatial's are in the Family Room system in a room that is 23'x28'x10 with a 6' opening in front of the speakers that leads to the kitchen/breakfast room so in effect and even larger area.  Unless your room is larger or you just feel the need for Mono's the stereo ST-10 which is Balanced is more than enough.  As to the Cherry amps I have never heard them and have no opinion as to whether or not they are "the best" of Class D or a perfect fit for every speaker made.  I've got one of the Mivera Purepower amps based on the newest Icepower modules coming in the next few weeks so we will see how it stacks up. 
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Chris_B on 28 Mar 2018, 03:16 pm
I've owned M3 TS's and then TM's for two years now and in that time I have tried them with Job 225, Odyssey Kismet, W4S mAmps, Nord One Up, and Nuprime ST-10.  The winner with both configurations of the speaker has been the ST-10.  My Spatial's are in the Family Room system in a room that is 23'x28'x10 with a 6' opening in front of the speakers that leads to the kitchen/breakfast room so in effect and even larger area.  Unless your room is larger or you just feel the need for Mono's the stereo ST-10 which is Balanced is more than enough.  As to the Cherry amps I have never heard them and have no opinion as to whether or not they are "the best" of Class D or a perfect fit for every speaker made.  I've got one of the Mivera Purepower amps based on the newest Icepower modules coming in the next few weeks so we will see how it stacks up.

Hi Jack - do you remember what M3's sounded like with the Odyssey Kismets?  I'm asking to see how the M3's handled with relatively beefy solid state amps like the Odysseys.

Thanks,

Chris
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Tyson on 28 Mar 2018, 04:04 pm
Can't disagree with that. There is Class D and then there is SOTA Class D. Regardless of price, the Cherries lay waste to every tube amp I've heard.  :green:

I think I know part of why well done class D does so well.  Music often has very hard, very fast, very short transients.  So an amp is often clipping for a microsecond during this.  And tube amps clip more gracefully than SS amps.  Class D on the other hand has so much power and headroom on tap, that they never really clip, so they always sound their best. 

Oh, and my first choice would be a robust tube amp like Don Sachs' Kootenay amp.  For digital, the DAC Maraschinos are the best I've heard (and probably the only Class D amps I'd be able to live with, based on their lack of edge, grain and overall pleasant tonal balance).
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Wind Chaser on 28 Mar 2018, 05:19 pm
Tyson,

Have you heard the Maraschino’s or Don Sach’s amp in your home? I bet if you did, the Maraschino’s would stomp all over Don’s amp. Simply put there isn’t PP tube amp that can compete with with a half decent SET. And based on my experience with 6 different SETs, there isn’t a SET that can compete with the Maraschino’s.  :wink:
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: glynnw on 28 Mar 2018, 05:47 pm
I have been driving my M3TM's with a Shindo Montille 6V6 push pull amp and am very pleased with the results.  I tried the Red Dragon amps when I first bought the M3s  (before updating to TM) and preferred the Shindo.  And the Shindo, a PP amp, has bested several other amps in my system, the latest being a First Watt.  Currently I am trying a Sean Casper built 2A3 amp and it is very nice and may well best the Shindo - time will tell.  But keep an open mind regarding amp types and let your ears decide.  The Spatial speakers seem happy with a wide range of amplifiers.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: debjit.g on 28 Mar 2018, 06:19 pm
When I had my M3 TS, I asked Clayton about a matching amp and he replied that the LTA amps are the best he has heard with the M3's. I think LTA also provides 15day in-home audition.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: dspringham on 28 Mar 2018, 07:34 pm
Tyson,

Have you heard the Maraschino’s or Don Sach’s amp in your home? I bet if you did, the Maraschino’s would stomp all over Don’s amp. Simply put there isn’t PP tube amp that can compete with with a half decent SET. And based on my experience with 6 different SETs, there isn’t a SET that can compete with the Maraschino’s.  :wink:

Hey Wind,

Which model Maraschino do you have? Which power supply option?
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Tyson on 28 Mar 2018, 09:09 pm
Tyson,

Have you heard the Maraschino’s or Don Sach’s amp in your home? I bet if you did, the Maraschino’s would stomp all over Don’s amp. Simply put there isn’t PP tube amp that can compete with with a half decent SET. And based on my experience with 6 different SETs, there isn’t a SET that can compete with the Maraschino’s.  :wink:

I've not had either in my home.  I've got the "scaled down" version of Don's amp that I DIY'd several years ago (the Octal based VTA ST-70 w/KT66 tubes).  And I've only heard the DAC amps the past 3 years at RMAF (they got better every year).  My speakers are a super easy load, which is really a pre-condition for a tube amp to sound it's best, IME. 

Anyway, someday I'll have to get a DAC amp in here and do a proper shootout. 
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Wind Chaser on 28 Mar 2018, 10:32 pm
Hey Wind,

Which model Maraschino do you have? Which power supply option?

King 48  :D
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: mfsoa on 28 Mar 2018, 10:48 pm
Although I've only heard a stereo DAC Megaschino vs. top of the line Marachinos (King?) and not on Spatial speakers but on Tekton Double Impacts, I can hazard a wild guess that a pair of Mega Monos, with or without the extra capacitance, would work very well for you. Very very well.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: JackD on 29 Mar 2018, 04:04 am
Chris

The Kismet was good with the Turbo S's I never tried it with the TM's as the system the Spatial's are in is balanced and the Kismets would require Neutrik adaptors.  My TM's are in a big room so they need horsepower.  An alternative to the ST-10 monos (which would be my choice) would be the Nord One Up monos as the Nord was very close to the ST-10 with the TM's but not the TS's for some reason. 
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: gregfisk on 29 Mar 2018, 06:49 am
I've not had either in my home.  I've got the "scaled down" version of Don's amp that I DIY'd several years ago (the Octal based VTA ST-70 w/KT66 tubes).  And I've only heard the DAC amps the past 3 years at RMAF (they got better every year).  My speakers are a super easy load, which is really a pre-condition for a tube amp to sound it's best, IME. 

Anyway, someday I'll have to get a DAC amp in here and do a proper shootout.

I heard the Don Sach amp on my Super V's and it was simply magic to my ears. I don't think anything could stomp it but I will soon get to hear a new class D amp in the same set up so we shall see.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Wind Chaser on 20 Jun 2018, 02:57 am
Hey Greg,

Did you ever get a chance to compare a Class D amp to your other amp? If so, which Class D amp and what was the outcome?
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: JackD on 20 Jun 2018, 04:14 am
He had Michael's Purepower SE for a while before Michael got back.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: who?me? on 20 Jun 2018, 04:50 am
"1. Bel Canto Design REF 1000M
2. Odyssey Stratos
3. Primaluna Dialogue 7 Mono-block Amplifiers ( not balanced )
4. Pass Labs Aleph 2 monoblocks
5. Vidar monoblocks
6. Nuprime ST-10M. (balanced?).

Thoughts? Recommendations?"

I bet the PL Dialogue 7s would be fantastic, that is probably a lot of heat generation.
There is at least one guy in the forums that runs the Vidar Monos with success, but again, they run a lil warm
There should be a good match with at least one of the NuPrime products.

Has Anyone listened to a pair of Bel Canto Ref600Ms driving the M3TMs?
I'm about to try a Bel Canto Ref500S, will let ya know...

You might even just email that list of amps to Clayton and ask for his input.
I would assume he could also rec a NuPrime model for the M3TMs, probably played one at a trade show.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: gregfisk on 20 Jun 2018, 06:16 am
Hey Greg,

Did you ever get a chance to compare a Class D amp to your other amp? If so, which Class D amp and what was the outcome?

Funny you mention this today, Michael is getting his amp shipped to him tomorrow. Like Jack mentioned I have been using the amp for a few months now and really enjoying it. I just ordered a 1200as2 based amp from Rogue Audio in Italy today. They call it the Studio 10 and I really like the looks of it. The amp I currently own is a Butler 2250 which is a hybrid amp with a tube in each channel at the output stage. I like this amp and have owned it for a long time now. The main difference between the two is Micheal's amp has more transparency and detail. They both have a warmish presentation and plenty of power to run most speakers with ease.

Mine will be balanced which works a lot better with my balanced Lampi Atlantic. I had the opportunity to hear a Takachi cased amp which was balanced and Micheal's single ended Mivera SE amp together and the balanced amp sounded better with my Atlantic. 

I didn't get to hear the Don Sach amp which is also Micheal's along side the SE and I really can't guess which one I like better. I do know I really liked Don's amp thou like I mentioned earlier in this thread. I remember thinking I would love to have it but didn't like the idea of all those tubes. For how good that amp sounds it is probably worth it thou.

Take Care,

Greg
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: JackD on 20 Jun 2018, 01:04 pm
who?me?

My ST-10 has been a great amp with both the M3TS and the M3TM's and I would expect the new mono's to be even better with some of the circuit improvements they have made.  I am running the Mivera Purepower balanced with the M3TM's for now and while like the Nord (NC-500) it does a good job I can't tell you that it betters the Nuprime. Any of the three would be an acceptable stopping point depending on which "flavor" you prefer. 
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Wind Chaser on 20 Jun 2018, 05:31 pm
I am running the Mivera Purepower balanced with the M3TM's for now and while like the Nord (NC-500) it does a good job I can't tell you that it betters the Nuprime.

Well that's very interesting considering all of Mivera's hyperbole.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Tyson on 20 Jun 2018, 05:37 pm
who?me?

My ST-10 has been a great amp with both the M3TS and the M3TM's and I would expect the new mono's to be even better with some of the circuit improvements they have made.  I am running the Mivera Purepower balanced with the M3TM's for now and while like the Nord (NC-500) it does a good job I can't tell you that it betters the Nuprime. Any of the three would be an acceptable stopping point depending on which "flavor" you prefer. 

Felt the same way about his DAC when I had it in my system.  Good but definitely not better than the Auralic Vega.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Wind Chaser on 20 Jun 2018, 05:41 pm
I didn't get to hear the Don Sach amp which is also Micheal's along side the SE and I really can't guess which one I like better.

How much price difference between Don's amp and the 1200 you ordered from Rogue?

One thing for sure the Rogue will run much cooler. Also no tubes means more reliability. I would also bet that it will be faster, more transparent and detailed. I would also suspect better bass but that's sort of a moot point since you have specialized amps specifically for that task.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Wind Chaser on 20 Jun 2018, 05:42 pm
Felt the same way about his DAC when I had it in my system.  Good but definitely not better than the Auralic Vega.

Which DAC was that?
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: dspringham on 22 Jun 2018, 05:17 pm
who?me?

My ST-10 has been a great amp with both the M3TS and the M3TM's and I would expect the new mono's to be even better with some of the circuit improvements they have made.  I am running the Mivera Purepower balanced with the M3TM's for now and while like the Nord (NC-500) it does a good job I can't tell you that it betters the Nuprime. Any of the three would be an acceptable stopping point depending on which "flavor" you prefer.

Jack,

I was wondering when you would be posting your impressions of the Mivera Purepower. It seems that it is in the wheelhouse with the Nuprime and Nords, however I don't get the impression from you the it "blows the doors" off of everything else in it's catagory (despite all of the hype).

I have a pair of M3 TM's on the way and will try them first with my Vinnie Rossi DHT LIO using the internal Mosfet amp. Next will be the Nord One UP SE's NC500. Also have a JOB 225 but I'm concerned the high gain may be an issue. Have you ever tried your JOB on the M3's?

Wish I hadn't sold my DAC10/St-10 combo a while ago. Of course that was before I bought the M3's.

Dave



Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: JackD on 23 Jun 2018, 01:56 am
Dave

My impressions of the Mivera are strictly confined to my perception of how it sounds with the M3TM's in comparison the the Nord (with both the Sparkos and SI op amps) and the ST-10.  The W4S mAmps were only here for the M3TS version. How the Mivera would stack up with a different loudspeaker I have not attempted to find out as the Class D amps were for use in that system due to size and ability to operate cooly in a "cabinet environment.  In this setup with the OPPO 203, DAC-10 and Auralic Aries. I prefer the Nuprime.  Part may be synergy with the speaker or with the DAC-10.  While it was breaking in in my Office system with the Reynaud Twin Signatures I honestly didn't pay much attention to it plus I was using the OPPO Sonica as Streamer/DAC and preamp in this setup and it's preamp section using the ESS Chipset is average to below at best.  I have not tried it in the Main system as in the Spatial based system the amps are run from the balanced outputs of the DAC-10 and the Rythmik subs from the SE outputs at line level.  In the main system the Rythmik subs are run speaker level which you can't do with the Class D amps so it would require me to rewire and re-calibrate the subs for a "test run" and as of now I have felt that was too much trouble though I may change my mind at some point.  If it worked well with the Nola's or the incoming Verity Otello's it would cut down on the heat in the scorching Florida heat. 

As to your question about the Job 225 and the Spatial's I don't think I ever tried it.  Based on it's sonic signature it should work well sound wise with the M3TS.  My only concern would be if you pushed it too hard with really loud steady volume as it always seemed uncomfortable with low impedance loads and stress.  If your just talking about "normal" levels it should be fine and the gain would only be an issue if you were using the LIO as preamp only and it had a high gain number which I don't think it does as the specs show 6-9 db at the max and with the integrated's outputs maybe 0db. 

With the Spatial's the Mivera reminds me most of the Nord with the Sparkos op amps and with the Spatial's the SI op amps work better.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: gregfisk on 23 Jun 2018, 03:07 am
How much price difference between Don's amp and the 1200 you ordered from Rogue?

One thing for sure the Rogue will run much cooler. Also no tubes means more reliability. I would also bet that it will be faster, more transparent and detailed. I would also suspect better bass but that's sort of a moot point since you have specialized amps specifically for that task.

The Rouge Studio N10 is $1030.00 to my door from Italy. It is a very attractive price for what you get. I don't know how much the Don Sach amp costs but of course it is more. All of your points are spot on but the Don Sach amp really did sound good in my room. I do like the idea of not dealing with a bunch of tubes and having the amp so much lighter and cool running. The Studio N10 is nice looking in my opinion but isn't near as sexy as Don's tube amp. I did get the LED switch on the front to match my Lampi Atlantic LED switch so that was a big bonus :lol:.

Jack, it is very interesting you find the 3 class D amps you mention similar in sound quality considering the price differences between them. I didn't realize the ST-10 was as good as the others so I learned something about that.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: JackD on 23 Jun 2018, 03:40 am
Greg

To my ears with the Spatial's at least the Nuprime is that good and worth a try if you can get John or somebody to let you try one that is broken in.  There is also a brand new one for sale from a dealer in Ontario for a good price that includes shipping and Paypal fees. With the Nola's the Nord with the Sparko's and the Modwright LS-100 was a better combo. Therein is the advantage of the Nord in some cases with the ability to "tune" it with the op amps. I don't know if Michael did any more comparison between his base Mivera and the ST-10 before he came home but you might ask him. 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8jfj4-nuprime-st-10-power-amplifier-new-warranty-incl-insured-shipping-paypal-solid-state?refsource=hifishark
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Tyson on 23 Jun 2018, 03:49 am
Which DAC was that?

The Purestream.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: gregfisk on 23 Jun 2018, 07:19 am
Thanks for the link Jack, that is a very good price for sure. After having Michael's SE in my room I wouldn't want to have any less headroom than what that amp can give me. On most recordings I had more than enough power but on some it was nice to have more, probably because of the size of my room. 

To the OP, if monoblocks are a must the 1200as2 boards are stereo but apparently the 1200as1 boards will be out soon. I know at least Rouge will be selling them as monoblocks shortly. The NC500 amps by Nord can be purchased as monoblocks as well. Someone else would have to tell you whether Nuprime has the ST-10 in a monoblock configuration as I don't know.

NOTE: I just looked to see who the OP was and realized he hasn't been back here since starting this thread? Well, at least the rest of us are entertaining ourselves :lol:

Greg
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: JackD on 23 Jun 2018, 01:40 pm
The ST-10 mono's have been out a couple of months now.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: Wind Chaser on 23 Jun 2018, 05:09 pm
The new Nuprime Evolution is supposed to be quite a step forward for Nuprime, those are the mono blocks I’d like to hear, but I am perfectly content happy with the Maraschino mono amps. They are clearly the best amps I’ve heard regardless of price and a perfect match for M3ts.
Title: Re: Best monoblocks for M3 Trodes
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Jun 2018, 12:54 am
Confucius says:

He who shouts the loudest not necessarily the best.

Oh. not Confucius? :scratch: