[sica]

Hi Dave, long time no talk, I still haven't replace the caps for my hales   But I think I will soon.   I am glad to see you succeed with your 1801s, and want to congratulate you on further improvements with the design(1801b).
I guess my questions are:
1.  Why is the OW1 selected for your speakers, instead of OW1 ferro and OW2/3?

2. I think you once said that the power handling of the OW1 is the limiting factor of the loudness capability of the 1801s.  Would the 1801s be able to play louder with the OW1 ferro?

Best regards

Sica

[David Ellis]

"1. Why is the OW1 selected for your speakers, instead of OW1 ferro and OW2/3? "

My response will be somewhat terse.  

There are design compromises in ANY driver design.  I encourage you to see the Hiquphon page for further information.  If you feel ambitius, download the driver parameter calculator (DPC) by Klaus Futtrup.  After about 1000 of self-study I was able to spend 10 hours with the  DPC.  The DPC was quite enlightening.

The OW1 - well damped (i.e. good shock absorbers) and pretty darn fast too.

OW2 - better sensitivity - I don't need that.

OW3 - There is a bunch of stuff happening here, but the orgional intent was a tweeter with a gold dome.  Some gent in SE asia paid good $ for quality sound with a gold dome.  

Most folks - me included, who have heard the Hiquphon drivers, prefer the OW1.

"2. I think you once said that the power handling of the OW1 is the limiting factor of the loudness capability of the 1801s."

Please do a search for MTM in this forum.  I posted some remarks on the subject there.  Basically, the driver that surrenders first is depended on the music the 1801 is fed.  With heavy female vocals the tweeter does surrender first.

Would the 1801s be able to play louder with the OW1 ferro?

Yep, but the F.R.  curve might get a little goofy.  I haven't tried this.

Also, have you ever put a Briggs&Stratton lawnmower in your living room?  Well, the 1801 will push slightly more sound pressure.  If this ain't enough, then I am sure some Cerwin Vega's would surely do much better.  None of the 1801 owners have mentioned the lack of sound pressure.  

Please let me know if you have further questions.  And... gets some SonicCaps in those Hales speakers!

Dave

[Rob Babcock]

This doesn't specifically relate to the 1801's, but I do have a comment on SPLs.  Now I know the ability of a speaker to hit high SPLs for short bursts does improve dynamics and realism on orchestral fortisimos, etc.  But I'm a bit concerned about the obsession with high SPLs.  The ability to play loudly is nice, but I'm concerned about the hearing of those who put this ability at a premium.  Especially younger guys who maybe haven't given it much thought.  I don't want to see a music lover trade a lifetime of musical enjoyment for a few years of listening to music too loudly.

I know that for the most part dynamics is the reason that people want to be able to hit a certain SPL, not just to "crank it to 11."  But I have a pair of two ways roughly the size of the 1801's, and while there have been a couple times I could have used a smidge more volume (I have a very large room), for the most part I have no compaints.  I'm sure a pair of 1801's would play plenty loudly for me, even in my main system.

Can't we all find another performance parameter to obsess about?

[JohnR]

Can't we all find another performance parameter to obsess about?

Well, for me, this is the achilles heel of most systems, including every one I've ever owned. It's not so you can play at high SPLs, it's so that you don't compress dynamic peaks, which can be a looong way above the average

I think most people are more likely to damage their hearing in other ways than a home stereo. Rock concerts, for instance. Using power tools without hearing protection, riding a motorcycle without wearing earplugs (up to 110 dB inside the helmet at freeway speeds!), using headphones in an airplane or on a train, using headphones at all, etc.

[Rob Babcock]

There is flatly no transducer system you could buy now or probably ever build that could reproduce the dynamic range of real life.  And that is a weakness of all speakers, regardless of size.  I'm just pointing out that if you could get another 5dB out of the speakers, you wouldn't really be any closer to the "truth."  Still, I agree that more dynamic power is good, and that's one thing I like about big speakers.  However, I think many people lose sight of the forest for the trees, here.

You are correct about the many activities that can harm hearing.  Concerts are bad, as are motorcycles (which, frustratingly enough, seem to be exempt from the regs that car mufflers must meet), power tools, and a favorite pastime of mine, shooting (NO transducer could even HOPE to match the spl of a gunshot, not even within 30-40 dB.  Hearing protection is an ABSOLUTE MUST for this activity).

However, you are kidding yourself that overly loud music isn't one of the greatest dangers.  A lawnmower is loud, but how long will most people run one at one shot?  I've known HUNDREDS of people, mostly young, that will listen to loud music fore hours at a time.  This occurs in cars a lot, too, with systems that (from a sheer SPS standpoint) will clobber most home rigs.

My speakers will output a max of 111dB, probably more for HT where I have five of them and two subs.  This surely won't cover the very last dB of creshendi, and it would be nice to have the muscle, but I don't play music that loud in the real world very often.

IMOHO, most of the speakers that can reach very high spl don't happen to sound very good.  And the rest I can't afford!

[David Ellis]

But I have a pair of two ways roughly the size of the 1801's,

I had a pair of B@W 602's that were roughly the same size as the 1801 too.  These have a shorter voice coil, and less travel.  They will subsequently produce less SPL.

There are a few common two way speakers that I will certainly allow comparisons with.  These have a decent long throw woofer.  They are:

Sonus Faber Electra Amator 2
Proac 2.5
Merlin VSM
Norh 7.0 (the one with the SS8545)

It seems there is another Kharma that uses the Accuton C95.  Maybe it is called the 3.1.  This one should have good spl too.  

99% of the other 2-way speakers simply have a lessor midwoofer and will produce less spl.

I will admit that there are thermal limitations too, but the X-Max limitation is much more significant IMO.

Dave

[JohnR]

The noise risk from motorcycles is wind noise, not the exhaust.

I'm just pointing out that if you could get another 5dB out of the speakers, you wouldn't really be any closer to the "truth."

I don't understand. Why is that not closer? I agree, it's not much of an improvement, but at least it's in the right direction, all other things being equal. Lack of dynamics is the main problem with most systems, at least in my experience and in systems that don't have silly problems like bad sources. The room acoustics now being second on my list

Ultimately, you can't really stop people from being stupid. But I I think I'm grown up enough to know how to use a volume knob

...or maybe not...  

JohnR

[sica]

Thank you Dave for your reply.
I hope I didn't come across as rude in my question.   I am sure Dave is tired of people asking about the loudness capabilities of the 1801s
Actually I too don't listen to rock and pop music loud, but dynamic peaks of full orchestras with/without female vocals give my hales the most problems.  Those classical musics sure have very wide dynamic range!

[Rob Babcock]

I mispoke, John; you could dip a cupfull of water out of the ocean and it would be closer to being empty!   I guess I picked a poor random number, as 5 dB would be a pretty fair improvement in output, relatively speaking.

As to the loud pipes, I was more thinking of those who have to tolerate them, not the jackasses that cruise 'em thru residentials at 2 am.

You're either really into dynamics or your rooms must be great, 'cos IMOHO, room problems are a far bigger factor than the ability of a given speaker to play loudly.

Still, I don't disagree with you that all else being equal, I'm in favor of greater SPLs and dynamic range.  It just seems that there's a tempest in a teakettle concerning whether or not the 1801s can play loud enough, which to me is a head scratcher.  I've seen a lot of posts questioning this, though my guess would be that they'll play about as loud as most 2 ways that size that aren't horn loaded.

BTW, I'm not saying the risk of hearing loss means speakers shouldn't be engineered to play loudly.  You're right, you can't keep a stupid person down.  I do wish people knew the risks of hearing loss, but it's really not that different from smoking.

Hey, John, the emoticons don't seem to be working for me, is there a prob right now?  Could be my PC, I've been having some Explorer problems lately.  Some of 'em are working, but some of them blank my whole post out.

Anyway, your point is taken.  It would be nice to have a little more dynamic range that we normally get, although this is dependant upon a lot more than just the speakers.

[JohnR]

Heh heh    

I'm certainly with you on the room acoustics as well. Well, I don't have a system with incredible dynamic range, but I *want* one. I'm working towards it slowly, with various setbacks oops I mean "learning experiences" along the way.

Apologies to Dave if this little subthread is out of place . I have to say I do very much admire his careful and methodical approach to things. I wonder if some of this "1801s don't play loud" thing is simply due to his modesty in describing the capabilities of his speakers (altho I have never heard one).

PS emoticons are working for me... I will PM you

[David Ellis]

I wonder if some of this "1801s don't play loud" thing is simply due to his modesty in describing the capabilities of his speakers (altho I have never heard one).

I don't think that my remarks about 1801 spl are modest.  Have you ever started your lawn mower in the living room?!

Dave

[Rob Babcock]

Didn't mean to hijack your forum, Dave!  Sorry about that.  I just think it's odd that so many people question the 1801's volume capabilities.  Maybe the fact that you don't publish a concrete number makes people think you're hiding something.

[JohnR]

Have you ever started your lawn mower in the living room?!

No... have you?

[David Ellis]

Well, I haven't strarted my lawnmower in the living room, but I did start my lawnmower in the garage with the door closed.  My small garage isn't much bigger than my living room.  That lawnmower was darn loud.

Hm, I should add this to my web page.  It truly would be feasible for a prospective customer to start a lawnmower in his garage with the door closed.  This would provide a good idea of the 1801's sound pressure capability.

[markC]

Just don't hang out in the closed garage too long listening to the lawnmower