AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Cheap and Cheerful HiFi => Topic started by: avahifi on 13 Jan 2013, 02:58 pm
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They are available at Best Buy for $129 a pair. My prototype designer brought up his set for me to audition yesterday. His main speakers are Sanders electrostatics and these little speakers impressed him so he gave me the chance for a listen here in my sound room with my best electronics.
These small bookshelf speakers are outstanding values. They are open, smooth, with a really neutral tonal balance and presentation. Not that last word in range or transparency, but good enough so that I can enjoy the music listening to them, and that means pretty darn good in the overall scheme of things. Amazingly listenable with no obvious flaws.
Think about trying a pair of these before spending ten times as much on something else.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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I had the previous model (gave them to a youngster needing new speakers) and went into to Best Buy thinking about getting the new ones. They happened to be on sale for $100 :green: and they do sound good. :thumb:
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Interesting you should bring up these speakers, Frank.
I decided to take the BS21's for a spin a month ago when Newegg was closing em' out for $39. Shipping included! In short: My walk-away impressions of them mirror your own. Great tonal balance. Smooth top end. Solid imaging. Not the last word in resolution, but decent enough to get the job done. Overall, I'm wickedly impressed by em'. So much so that I plan on using the Pioneer's as a benchmark for what can be accomplished in this particular range.
Excellent transducers. :D
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Tiger Direct has these for $89. I gave a pair as a Christmas Gift this year and they were well received.... :icon_lol:
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I recommended them to a non-audiophile friend looking for new speakers, and even his GF was impressed. He absolutely loves them, got them for $94 on sale at BB.
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One of the customer reviews at Parts Express was from someone who has also owned both the SP-BS21-LR and SP-BS41-LR.
He said "Andrew Jones has out-done himself with the improved SP-BS22-LR's. He gained 10Hz deeper bass, cleaned up the tweeter issues, and just made the new speaker more musical. I also have the SP-BS41-LR's, and excepting a 1 or 2 dB sensitivity difference, the new "22's" sound better than them."
With the waveguide tweeter, improved drivers and better looking one-piece removable grill, looks to be another low-priced hit.
Steve
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It's kinda funny, while I certainly agree that the BS22's took care of that notorious upper frequency dip in the BS21's, they nonetheless sound a bit 'rougher around the edges' to these ears.
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What would they be like on stands? Sound as good?
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I have a pair of these too, hooked up to my high end AVA stuff. It's truly a modern day miracle in my books. Don't like the sound? Try some better electronics to power them. They are not meant for head bangers, but are very pleasing on classical, rock or jazz. There is the occasional "where did that bass come from" moments as well.
Wayner
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I bought the ones these replaced around Christmas through newegg, 40 dollars shipped! I am putting together a system for my friend's 12 year old daughter, another vinyl nut in the making!
Paul
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is the C22 center a sonic match? Might be a cool budget home theater with a powerful sub.
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I liked my engineer's Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers so much that I ordered a pair for myself from Parts Express (I have a dealer account there). These and the lowest cost Sanus 24" speaker stands and the results have to be the most cost effective speakers I have ever heard.
There is a bit of a rasp on certain high frequency female vocals sometimes, but overall these are just fantastic speakers for the money and probably a lot better than many $1000 a pair bookshelf speakers.
They are even more open and transparent when used with the grill covers off.
I might even take mine apart for the plasticlay treatment one of these days after I have more listening time.
These speakers along with a cheep Class D power amp and your computer as a source might be all the money you need to spend on audio at all.
Frank Van Alstine
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I use these as fronts and surrounds in a very modest home theater setup, along with the matching centerchannel speaker. Bought on sale, all the speakers together were around $100. Cant beat that.
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I'm happy with the new egg deal of 49.00 for previous sr 21 version around cyber Friday or whatever deal it was the free shipping was icing on the cake.
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The Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers work just fine on Sanus BF24-B1 24" tall stands. The stands retail for about $50 a pair. They are an exact match of black on black and reasonably solid and sturdy. Don't place the rear top rubber corners at the back corners of the stands. Move these in quite a lot or you will miss the bottom of the speakers, which taper inward.
I am running mine with an Ultimate 70 amplifier today and the more I listen the more I like this little wonders.
They are only 85 dB efficient, so they are not for 5 watt SET amplifiers. The 35W/Ch Ultimate 70 drives them just fine and quite loud. Any time we find a decent stock used ST-70 chassis we build it into an Ultimate 70 and sell it for $995 depending upon chassis condition. The combination is pretty special.
Frank Van Alstine
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So two of my guys were here today, my other EE and my ace amplifier builder. Both heard the little Pioneer speakers for the first time and both thought one of my big speaker pairs were playing at first (Salk HT3s and B&W 801s).
Jaws dropped when they realized the were listening to the little Pioneer speakers that cost 30 times less than either of the big pairs. They are capable of a huge, involving, and utterly natural sonic presentation!
Both asked me to order them a set!
If you are thinking of new speakers under $1000 or so, you are doing yourself a big disservice if you don't audition these astonishing little speakers first.
I think Pioneer's problem is that these are sold by their home theater division as part of a 5 speaker surround sound set and nobody at Pioneer knows what they sound like, or if they do they have no venue to promote them as they don't even sell consumer high fidelity equipment any more. Their black hole of marketing is your gain. Get a pair!
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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I think Panasonic's problem is that these are sold by their home theater division as part of a 5 speaker surround sound set and nobody at Panasonic knows what they sound like, or if they do they have no venue to promote them as they don't even sell consumer high fidelity equipment any more. Their black hole of marketing is your gain. Get a pair!
Panasonic may not sell consumer high fidelity equipment any more, but Pioneer does, who is the manufacturer of these speakers! Good to know they sound exceptional for the money, though.
Steve
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I think Panasonic's Pioneer's problem is that these are sold by their home theater division as part of a 5 speaker surround sound set and nobody at Panasonic knows what they sound like, or if they do they have no venue to promote them as they don't even sell consumer high fidelity equipment any more. Their black hole of marketing is your gain. Get a pair!
PIONEER knows exactly what they have (Andrew Jones/TAD) and they do have a few nice hi fi pieces.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Audio-Components/Hi-Fi+Audio
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Whoops, Pioneer, not Panasonic, I fixed my previous post.
Frank
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So two of my guys were here today, my other EE and my ace amplifier builder. Both heard the little Pioneer speakers for the first time and both thought one of my big speaker pairs were playing at first (Salk HT3s and B&W 801s).
I'm intrigued for sure on these little guys. If your guys thought that the 30x more costly speakers were playing, that's something to think about. That says a lot considering how much they have heard both the HT3's & 801s.
If Andrew Jones had anything to do with these it certainly doesn't surprise me whatsoever though. The man is truly brilliant.
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Has anyone ever heard the S-2EX?
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Has anyone ever heard the S-2EX?
Suggested Price: $7,000.00, not in any way close to Cheap and Cheerful, therefore not appropriate for this circle. However it could be a TAD speaker for cost constrained audiophiles and a thread about them might be welcome over on the Enclosures circle.
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My prototype designer brought up his set for me to audition yesterday. His main speakers are Sanders electrostatics and these little speakers impressed him so he gave me the chance for a listen here in my sound room with my best electronics.
Not to hijack the thread but I have heard the Sanders are pretty impressive and was wondering what your impressions were (assuming you have heard them of course.)
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Now that the discontinued BS21 is no longer available from Newegg for $50 (or even $40 over the holidays!), the replacement BS22 has been selling for $125 - $130 from most vendors.
Right now, the BS22 is available from Amazon for $90 shipped.
SP-BS22-LR at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-Designed-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B008NCD2LG/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1359680251&sr=1-1&keywords=pioneer+sp-bs22-lr)
Steve
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Or it proves how other speaker manufacturers are bad at their crafts......
Wayner
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Or are just plain overcharging. Of course, to be fair, economy of scale favors a high-volume producer like Pioneer.
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The Pioneer crossover sounds much more complex than what would be offered in its price range, which means more money spent on parts. I doubt Pioneer is making much if any profit off the speakers given the price tag.
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Andrew Jones is a really nice guy too. Back in the day when I was studying for my first degree at Essex University and in the early stages of obsession with audio stuff, Andrew was working on noise cancellation- I think it was the Wolfson Noise Cancellation Project, or something like that- at Essex. Even though I wasn't studying anything related to this, Andrew showed me the workshop/ lab and demonstrated a vast bandpass subwoofer that was being used for the noise cancellation project. He also gave me a preamp PCB for a preamp that was, IIRC, designed by his brother, who also designed the Pink Triangle Pip preamp.
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On sale at Best Buy for $89.99/pair this week!
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So I wonder, should one snag one of the last few pairs of BS-21 speakers at whatever steep discount you can get, or spend a few extra bucks for the newer BS-22 model? Zero had some disagreement as to which one is better, has anyone else heard both?
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I haven't listened to both, but I just received the BS-22 and boy am I impressed.
Just a few hours of listening but they really kept my attention.
Like Frank said they like power - they sounded dull on my Ampino.
When I switched to a Audio Alchemy om-150 they came to life.
(CAPS V2, Dragonfly)
Position was critical for me. I am still tweaking. Right now they are about 5 feet
off the back walls and 6.5 feet apart. I have a little bass boom on some tracks, but
definitely now have the magic. Sound should fill the whole wall in front of you, not
just between the speakers.
Time to break them in and further tweak the positions.
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I picked up a pair of the BS-22 on sale at Best Buy. The imaging and clarity is stunning at this price point. A tad light in the loafers low bass wise so I added an 8" DIY sub to them and I am amazed by the magic.
The Pioneer crossover sounds much more complex than what would be offered in its price range, which means more money spent on parts. I doubt Pioneer is making much if any profit off the speakers given the price tag.
Yes, no doubt. Now that they have everyone's attention, Pioneer/A. Jones need to come out with a speaker line a notch or two above these. There is a huge gap between this budget line and the extremely expensive EX series.
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I'm not seeing the sale price at Best buy. Is there a trick? Thx
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I'm not seeing the sale price at Best buy. Is there a trick? Thx
Looks like the sale price has expired. It appears that everyone has ended the promotion on this model, so I'm sure it was a factory incentive thing to kick off the new model. Either look for the older BS21 on closeout, or wait for another sale. The sales are like buses and women, there's always another one around the corner.
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Does anyone have an idea where these can be sourced in Canada? The Pioneer Canada website only lists a company in Vancouver that seems to be out of business. Best Buy/Futureshop (same company) don't carry them here and I'm keen to get a pair without paying the steep shipping and customs fees to Amazon or Parts Express.
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Best Buy has them on sale again for $89. (It's Monday nite.)
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Best Buy has them on sale again for $89. (It's Monday nite.)
Amazon...$89.99 free shipping now as well.
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Grabbed a pair last week at BB for $129. Did the receipt switch-a-roo with them last night for the sale price. No problem. They are nice sounding speakers for the price. A year old pair of PSB B6's might need a new job.
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Grabbed a pair last week at BB for $129. Did the receipt switch-a-roo with them last night for the sale price. No problem. They are nice sounding speakers for the price. A year old pair of PSB B6's might need a new job.
Really that good?
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I just got mine in about an hour ago.
While they lack the ultimate in high end extension, they are very nice. They recommend that you pull them away from the wall to 2 feet. Do it. It gets rid of most of the mid-bass boominess. (The further you can pull them out, the better. I haven't pulled them out any further.) There is a surprising amount of bass for 4" mid-woofers.
They're voiced very laid back - it's not a in-your-face speaker.
They're not great (which can make mediocre recordings sound listenable at high levels) but very nice. They don't do anything badly.
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FYI - currently $69 on Amazon.
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I picked up the center channel speaker on a whim at Best Buy a couple of weeks ago, on sale. Pretty good for $60. Funny how the sales guys have no idea how good these are. They just assume cheap = crap.
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-C22-Designed-Channel-Speaker/dp/B008NCD2EI
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21xkY6qhspL.jpg)______
So my HT system thus far is:
Yamaha HTR-5660 AV receiver- free (guy at BB just gave it to me 8))
Audioengine P4 speakers (for the 'mains') - $250 (thank you, Steve).
Panasonic SP-C22 center - $60 on sale
Mordaunt Short Carnival 3 Dipole surround speakers - $100 (the pair) from accessoriesforless.com
Polk Audio PW110 10", 200w sub - $200 from Amazon
Homemade stands and racking made from repurposed furniture and scrap: freeballs
Grand total, minus (cheap) cables: $610.
I can tell you it sounds pretty decent for that kinda bread. Upgrades will happen over time (new sub is a priority).
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Audioengine P4 speakers (for the 'mains') - $400, I believe.
$249 in black or white, $325 in bamboo.
Steve
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$249 in black or white, $325 in bamboo.
Steve
Thanks. Been a little while.
Very attractive, capable speaker, I think the silk dome tweeter with the waveguide sounds very good.
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Well, after calling around (including one to Pioneer Canada) it seems that there are no stores in my area of Canada (BC) that either carry these speakers or are willing to order them. It seems that a aingle pair doesn't provide enough profit margin to make a special order worthwhile for them,.
I'm now planning a cross-border trip to Bellingham BB soon and will be choosing between these or their floor-standing siblings the SP-FS52's which are also designed by Andrew Jones and seem to have good reviews. They will be powered by a Yamaha 473 receiver and are for 50/50 HT and music (for my ex-wife).
My question is whether it might be better to stick with the bookshelf speakers on stands and get a sub or get the floor-standers?
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My question is whether it might be better to stick with the bookshelf speakers on stands and get a sub vs. the floor-standers?
I think you will get more impactful HT bass with a subwoofer and the bookshelf speakers, but I would also take into account whether pets or kids might be more prone to knocking bookshelf speakers off of their stands, the slight extra wiring and available floor space for the subwoofer and EXWAF.
Steve
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Well, after calling around (including one to Pioneer Canada) it seems that there are no stores in my area of Canada (BC) that either carry these speakers or are willing to order them. It seems that a aingle pair doesn't provide enough profit margin to make a special order worthwhile for them,.
I'm now planning a cross-border trip to Bellingham BB soon and will be choosing between these or their floor-standing siblings the SP-FS52's which are also designed by Andrew Jones and seem to have good reviews. They will be powered by a Yamaha 473 receiver and are for 50/50 HT and music (for my ex-wife).
My question is whether it might be better to stick with the bookshelf speakers on stands and get a sub or get the floor-standers?
Just curious, Amazon doesn't deliver to Canada, really?
I think you will get more impactful HT bass with a subwoofer and the bookshelf speakers, but I would also take into account whether pets or kids might be more prone to knocking bookshelf speakers off of their stands, the slight extra wiring and available floor space for the subwoofer and EXWAF.
Steve
Personally, I've been able to foist my audio fetish onto our decor in the living room (where the aforementioned HT system lives) using the cute, glossy Audioengine monitors as a trojan horse to get past my live-in girlfriend's anti-gadget defenses. IOW, I think bookshelf speakers are more practical that way. Another advantage is that you can get real deal bass from a sub, instead of half-ass passive floorstander bass. Also consider that you can place a sub to get the best sound, which also helps.
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Thanks SRB and neekomax , wise words as the EXWAF factor is extremely strong in this case as pets and kids won't be a problem but visible wiring might! :lol:
Can anyone thenrecommend a cheap and cheerful sub easily obtained that might match well with these speakers?
I notice that there is a Pioneer sub offered at BB for $160: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Pioneer+-+Subwoofer/5086873.p?id=1218610014537&skuId=5086873#tab=overview
There is also the Polk SW10 and a Yamaha in the same price range....
Amazon does deliver items to Canada but for some reason they won't for these speakers. Amazon Canada doesn't carry them unfortunately, only car speakers.
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what the heck, for $69 these are worth hearing. I have some Blumenstein Orca here now too, which are much more expensive. will be interesting to compare these with each other.
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My question is whether it might be better to stick with the bookshelf speakers on stands and get a sub or get the floor-standers?
I'm pairing them with that cheap Polk sub and for music, you'd hardly notice the difference and given that you're going to do HT, get the sub. If it was just for music, I'd say go for the floorstanders. Actually, if you can get the 52's and the sub, I'd recommend that because those little 4" mid-woofers sure go in and out a lot on heavy bass.
Oh and if/when you get the sub, don't wire the speakers through the sub - go through the receiver. The sub's crossover sucks big time. Ruins the sound.
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I'm pairing them with that cheap Polk sub and for music, you'd hardly notice the difference and given that you're going to do HT, get the sub. If it was just for music, I'd say go for the floorstanders. Actually, if you can get the 52's and the sub, I'd recommend that because those little 4" mid-woofers sure go in and out a lot on heavy bass.
Oh and if/when you get the sub, don't wire the speakers through the sub - go through the receiver. The sub's crossover sucks big time. Ruins the sound.
Which Polk sub do you have, charmerci?
If I was starting from scratch, I might get the 2 pairs of the SP-B22-LRs & the matching center for mad cheap and splurge and get the SVS SB-1000 12" sealed sub for $500. It's almost out of C&C territory, but a high value proposition, IMO. Paint 'em all white for the WAF/GAF/EXWAF (what's the story with that, anyway?), and you're done.
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb-1000
(http://www.svsound.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/SB_1000_50a67bb12f157.jpg)
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I've got the SW10. <$100 on amazon. Again, they're not that good but if (as with any cheap sub) you keep the output low and away from the corner, you can keep the boominess at a minimum to add a bit of low end heft.
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Paint 'em all white for the WAF/GAF/EXWAF (what's the story with that, anyway?), ...
Well here you go!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113152.20
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"Paint 'em all white for the WAF/GAF/EXWAF (what's the story with that, anyway?)"I just wanted to leave her (and my son when he's there) with a half-decent cheap n' cheerful HT/music system since I'm keeping my (slightly less modest) system. She did make an oblique reference to how much she like my SongTowers tho' ... :lol:
I can get the previous model SP-BS41 speakers on this side of the border - BNIB. Are they similar? I have read that some feel they are a bit warmer sounding...
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I can get the previous model SP-BS41 speakers on this side of the border - BNIB. Are they similar? I have read that some feel they are a bit warmer sounding...
Both designed by Andrew Jones. The 41's have a 5 1/4" mid woofer.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=339645
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I can get the previous model SP-BS41 speakers on this side of the border - BNIB. Are they similar? I have read that some feel they are a bit warmer sounding...
Compared here:
http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-speaker-system
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FYI - currently $69 on Amazon.
Just ordered a pair on Amazon. The price is almost half from retail, so couldn't pass it up. Even if they don't sound that good, it will sound better than the cheap pair of Ratshack speakers I'm using for HT now. :thumb:
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Which Polk sub do you have, charmerci?
If I was starting from scratch, I might get the 2 pairs of the SP-B22-LRs & the matching center for mad cheap and splurge and get the SVS SB-1000 12" sealed sub for $500. It's almost out of C&C territory, but a high value proposition, IMO. Paint 'em all white for the WAF/GAF/EXWAF (what's the story with that, anyway?), and you're done.
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb-1000
After buying the new Pioneer bookshelves I went out and got the towers and center channel for my system. previously I had mix and match DIY speakers for the front stage. These Pioneers are really outstanding.
Funny you should mention... Speaking of SVS. Soon after adding the Pio's I decided to change my sub out too. Ordered an SVS PB-1000 from their outlet and these subwoofers are amazing. I can't believe a 10" sub this size can reproduce such low bass. These go LOW and do not distort. Unbelievable clarity and perfect for the Pioneers. ( Even have the same finish.)
Liked this sub so much I sold my DIY sub drivers and bought another PB-1000. Now blurays rattle the foundation! Best sound I have ever had in here.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=76213)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=76214)
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Nice one Vlad! That's a pretty cool setup. Did you notice an improvement in the in-room bass response when you added the second sub?
I actually like the look of those towers more than I thought I would...
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Nice one Vlad! That's a pretty cool setup. Did you notice an improvement in the in-room bass response when you added the second sub?
Definitely yes. However in my experience this room requires two subs, partly because of a total limitation on where I can place them. ( No sub crawl for me.) No other placement options than what is pictured and one sub excites room nodes like crazy. Add another and it evens out nicely.
I talked to SVS prior to purchasing and they are extremely helpful. They have a online tool to mate their subs with a particular speaker and the PB12-NSD is actually recommended for the Pioneer floorstanders. Since I need two for this room, the PB-1000's got the blessing for more output and to smooth the response.
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How do the towers compare to the monitors?
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mine just showed up. how is it possible to get this level of performance for $69? I'm running these with something like $18k worth of gear behind them and they are not really out of place. I just don't understand the economics behind these and how anyone in the chain is making anything off them. not only that, but you can get these shipped free with Amazon Prime. I paid $8 extra to get them shipped next day. I plugged in the shipping details to Fedex and with the size and weight of the box it would cost $175.07 2-day and $337.92 next day standard to reverse ship these to where they came.
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mine just showed up. how is it possible to get this level of performance for $69? I'm running these with something like $18k worth of gear behind them and they are not really out of place. I just don't understand the economics behind these and how anyone in the chain is making anything off them. not only that, but you can get these shipped free with Amazon Prime. I paid $8 extra to get them shipped next day. I plugged in the shipping details to Fedex and with the size and weight of the box it would cost $175.07 2-day and $337.92 next day standard to reverse ship these from where they came.
Holy lord, man. Yeah, I use Amazon Prime, it's a decent deal if you buy fairly often there.
As far as how it's possible that these speakers are that cheap... maybe economies of scale, as Pioneer has a ginormous distribution network all over the world, and they probably sell a fair few of these. Sourcing the parts in mass quantities also probably gives them bargaining leverage with their suppliers.
And maybe, just maybe, the better question isn't why are THESE inexpensive and high value propositions, but why are other comparable products so expensive, and offer comparably low value? Hmmmmmmm.......
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Ah ha! That is exactly the point I was hoping to make when I started this thread. :)
Frank Van Alstine
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Ah ha! That is exactly the point I was hoping to make when I started this thread. :)
Frank Van Alstine
Yeah, ya think? I was at a recent audio gathering and there were some really nice speakers displayed that sell for $26,500 per pair. There were also some really nice homemade speakers that cost a few hundred. Except for the bass reproduction, which could have been matched with a couple of $1000 subs, I really didn't hear all that much difference. The expensive speakers were voiced better, more even in frequency response, but nothing a talented designer couldn't have matched in a week or so of effort. So where's the money at? Cabinets, limited production costs, and distributed R&D.
If you've front loaded the R&D with more expensive units previously, like TAD, you don't have any costs to add on to the cheaper unit. If you're making 250,000 units the cost per unit goes way, way down compared to 25. And you're building a cheap MDF cabinet covered in a vinyl wrap compared to a furniture grade piece of artwork. I imagine the first mod to the Pioneer will be to open up the cabinet and brace it more heavily.
As far as shipping costs for Amazon, you are aware that Amazon pays a fraction of what you do to ship something with FedEx, right? Having negotiated shipping rates with FedEx myself I'm assuming it costs them a flat rate no matter how they ship something that's under a certain weight and size limit. FedEx really, really wants their business, as does UPS and USPS, so they have a pretty big hammer at the negotiation table and their account is not handled by the regional sales rep.
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Compare them to ice amps with b and o modules. Ya think cause one pair costs 10,000 and the next is 1,000 well do you really think the 10,000 pair is automatically going to be that much better. F no.
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As far as shipping costs for Amazon, you are aware that Amazon pays a fraction of what you do to ship something with FedEx, right? Having negotiated shipping rates with FedEx myself I'm assuming it costs them a flat rate no matter how they ship something that's under a certain weight and size limit. FedEx really, really wants their business, as does UPS and USPS, so they have a pretty big hammer at the negotiation table and their account is not handled by the regional sales rep.
obviously, of course. but even if Amazon pays 90% less than we do I still don't see how they made any money on the deal.
I think we need to keep it in perspective here. these are nice little speakers that I would probably pay $400-$500 for. let's not go overboard and think they are going to compete with higher end speakers. for $69 though, about the price of half a bag of groceries at wholefoods, these are a phenomenal deal and an absolute steal. if I were out to build a low budget system I would seriously consider these and putting more budget into the components.
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Holy lord, man. Yeah, I use Amazon Prime, it's a decent deal if you buy fairly often there.
As far as how it's possible that these speakers are that cheap... maybe economies of scale, as Pioneer has a ginormous distribution network all over the world, and they probably sell a fair few of these. Sourcing the parts in mass quantities also probably gives them bargaining leverage with their suppliers.
And maybe, just maybe, the better question isn't why are THESE inexpensive and high value propositions, but why are other comparable products so expensive, and offer comparably low value? Hmmmmmmm.......
I'm going to be really interested to compare my pair to my current favorite (by a large margin) cheap speaker, the KEF Q100.
In that case, I can see why the Q100's cost more. In my case, about 7.5x more, given that I paid basically MSRP plus local sales tax for the Q100s and $69 shipped for the Pioneers. The Q100's cabinet is, if anything, worse in design and quality, being a similarly-finished squared-off box. But man...that Uni-Q drive unit. Incredible engineering, thoughtfully produced.
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I'm going to be really interested to compare my pair to my current favorite (by a large margin) cheap speaker, the KEF Q100.
In that case, I can see why the Q100's cost more. In my case, about 7.5x more, given that I paid basically MSRP plus local sales tax for the Q100s and $69 shipped for the Pioneers. The Q100's cabinet is, if anything, worse in design and quality, being a similarly-finished squared-off box. But man...that Uni-Q drive unit. Incredible engineering, thoughtfully produced.
Look forward to that comparision. Briefly had some KEF LS50s that were superb sounding, but they were sold to finance a tonearm upgrade. Only thing I didn't like about the LS50s was the annoying KEF logo on the top of the speakers. As seen here:
(http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1500/2d050/products/385/images/3331/kef_ls50_speaker_1__71525.1350772522.950.950.jpg)
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I'm going to be really interested to compare my pair to my current favorite (by a large margin) cheap speaker, the KEF Q100.
In that case, I can see why the Q100's cost more. In my case, about 7.5x more, given that I paid basically MSRP plus local sales tax for the Q100s and $69 shipped for the Pioneers. The Q100's cabinet is, if anything, worse in design and quality, being a similarly-finished squared-off box. But man...that Uni-Q drive unit. Incredible engineering, thoughtfully produced.
Yes, I too am a big fan of the Uni-Q driver. I feel like KEF could do a lot better with their cabinet design in general, and especially with the Q series. It's like they blew their entire R&D wad on the drivers, and at the last minute were like, "Alright, someone go fetch a box to put these babies in. Any box will do..." :lol: Not sure about them from an acoustic perspective, but aesthetically they do about as little to inspire a sense of beauty and quality as possible. There's gotta be a balance between function, cost, and physical beauty (the former being of primary concern, obs) for a product to be considered truly well designed, IMO.
It's ironic, because the Blade cabinet is arguably one of the more innovative and striking of its category, even at 30k. They 'trickled down' the driver technology, but the enclosure design was completely forgotten, it seems.
The Pioneer cabs are actually pretty sexy for the money, or 5x the money, for that matter.
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I did think that the LS50s cabinet was mighty impressive. Heavy speakers for their size.
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The KEF IQ series had the fancy rounded back cabinet design. I guess it didn't fit into KEF's target price point or they decided they wanted the extra volume so they went back to a square box design.
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Yes, I too am a big fan of the Uni-Q driver. I feel like KEF could do a lot better with their cabinet design in general, and especially with the Q series. It's like they blew their entire R&D wad on the drivers, and at the last minute were like, "Alright, someone go fetch a box to put these babies in. Any box will do..."
Agreed completely about the Q-Series cabinet, though I think the Reference-series cabinets are gorgeous and well-made. (Never seen a Blade, R-series, or LS50 in person.) Though it's fair to say that there's nothing else in the Q100's price range with a driver that has as high parts quality as the Q100s (cast basket with under-spider ventilation, 2" voicecoil, aluminum cone, double-dome tweeter, enormous midwoofer magnet, etc.), to say nothing of the IP in the driver.
(http://medleysmusings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/IMG_5291.jpg)
Funny thing about the Pioneers...the cabinet reminds me of nothing so much as the old KEF Q-Compacts I used to use for surround side and surround back duties. (They're now in my mom's sunroom.)
(http://image.ceneo.pl/data/products/273026/i-kef-q1.jpg)
(As an aside, I believe that generation Q-Series were some of the first KEF speakers to come out that weren't Andrew Jones' work.)
But I'm perhaps more interested to see what the wife thinks about the two speakers. Not only will she not know what the cost difference unless I tell her, but also she won't know that the cheapies were signed off on by the same person as our Pioneer EX speakers.
(http://www.hometheater.com/images/archivesart/609piospeak.2.jpg)
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My first set of speakers were Pioneers. Loved them. Hooked on audio ever since. Check out the Axiom M2v3's at a bargain price. They blow away the other speakers at their price point. James Tanner uses the Axiom drivers in his new line of speakers. Enjoy the music.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=76319)
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Okay, my Pioneer sp-bs22's arrived today and I placed them in my system for about an hour. They are noticeably lighter and smaller than the sp-bs41's. Also, they sport the smallest woofer I have ever seen. Compared to the 41's, these speakers have more top end detail and they seem to image better. Vocals sound natural and they have surprising bass for such a tiny driver.
They are a bargain, even at full srp, but I'm not sure I like them as much as the 41's. Perhaps they need a few more hours to loosen up and break in. So far, he 22's are better in many ways but I like the deeper bass and softer top end of the 41's better so far. The 41's are flawed, but they are capable of higher spl's and have deeper bass. They sound really good with poorly recorded rock music and I think they are more fun.
Both speakers feature very solid cabinets and are pretty cool looking. I prefer the traditional look of the grills on the 22'a but the non removable screens on the 41's might come in handy if you have small children or destructive friends. My observations were based on memory. I will do some side by side comparisons and compare both pairs to a set of Paradigm Atoms later this week. Battle of the cheap and cheerful speakers! More to come...
Cheers
Jack
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Is it just timing? Every few weeks i check the price of the 22's and they are always well above $140. Not that they arent worth $140, but I canot afford them or justify them unless they are that cheap.
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Is it just timing? Every few weeks i check the price of the 22's and they are always well above $140. Not that they arent worth $140, but I canot afford them or justify them unless they are that cheap.
yeah, the amazon or best buy $89 sales usually last just something like 2 or 3 (4?) days. Any cheaper and we're talking hours.
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Best Buy and Freys also had these for $69 a week or two ago. If you keep your eyes open, you should be anle to find them for that price. Also, check out the Pioneer 41's. they have better bass and are very close to the 22's. Both speakers are very well designed and pretty cool looking. The 41's have better power handling and play pretty loud without strain.
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Best Buy and Freys also had these for $69 a week or two ago. If you keep your eyes open, you should be anle to find them for that price. Also, check out the Pioneer 41's. they have better bass and are very close to the 22's. Both speakers are very well designed and pretty cool looking. The 41's have better power handling and play pretty loud without strain.
Do you have a link to the 41's for sale? I can't find them anywhere.
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Sorry, they are discontinued. You will have to check the used market or ebay. I paid $50/pair delivered from onecall. I'm sure the 22's will be on sale again soon. You might be able to find some 41's in your local Best Buy. They are no longer made but some stores might have a pair.
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Just ordered a pair on Amazon. The price is almost half from retail, so couldn't pass it up. Even if they don't sound that good, it will sound better than the cheap pair of Ratshack speakers I'm using for HT now. :thumb:
I've had the SP-BS22-LRs connected to the Yamaha HT receiver and OppO dvd player for a couple of days and I'm impressed with their sound quality for such a measly sum ($75 tax included). I listened to both Cds and TV shows/movies. These speakers have a nice clean and detail sound. They are tonally balanced as well. Treble is not strident, though not as extended as much more expensive speakers. The mid-range is the real strength of these small speakers, with vocals and instrumental timbres being very natural sounding. Upper bass notes are punchy and have impact, but mid-bass starts to lose some of that impact and become somewhat ill-defined. When I turned on the subwoofer, the setup became full range.
They don't have the nuances and refinement of much more expensive speakers, though at this price I didn't expect them to be half as good. I won't go as far as to say they are a poor man's TAD, but with better associated components this model series could become one of audio's "inexpensive classics."
Cheers,
Paul Mah
p.s. I promptly dropped one of the speakers when I was unwrapping and dented one of the corners (loose hands sink ships). But at this price, I'm not losing sleep over it.
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Dennis Murphy is working on an improved crossover for the towers...
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Would that something that can be installed after purchase? I just made a quick trip across the line and picked up the 52's in Bellingham and installed them in my ex's living room. Sounded really good to me but I don't get over there very much for any serious critical listening.... :lol:
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Would that something that can be installed after purchase? I just made a quick trip across the line and picked up the 52's in Bellingham and installed them in my ex's living room. Sounded really good to me but I don't get over there very much for any serious critical listening.... :lol:
I wouldn't be surprised if someone made a limited run at selling the upgraded crossover, should one be completed. Maybe Skiing Ninja or ErinH at diyaudiogroup.com
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Okay, I did some listening yesterday and compared the SP-BS22's with the SP-BS41's. Both sounded way better than the should have for under $100/pair (on sale). The 41's are way more forgiving and they have much better bass and power handling, but the 22's are a better overall speaker. The 22's are clearer, with more high frequency extension and better overall midrange. The cabinets of both speakers are surprisingly solid and the connectors are very good as well. Yesterday, I pushed both pairs very hard with a pair of SAS 50 watt push pull amps and they sounded very impressive. Great detail, bass, vocals, imaging, etc.
I'd love to hear an "improved" version of both speakers, but they sound very good as-is. These should be in the Cheap and Cheerful hall of fame!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=76837)
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The 22's look very good for the money. Very tempting for my bedroom or garage...
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Would that something that can be installed after purchase? I just made a quick trip across the line and picked up the 52's in Bellingham and installed them in my ex's living room. Sounded really good to me but I don't get over there very much for any serious critical listening.... :lol:
If he does it, Dennis will be happy to give you the details of what you need to install the crossover. He'll give you the plans or make one up for you and ship it to you at minimal cost. Just PM him here under DMurphy.
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I wounder how they'd sound with some new capacitors, maybe some polyfill if they don't have it.
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i've used to own pair personally in my bedroom and they sounded pretty good. I think Elite needs to make bookshelf speakers too
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I was considering SB22-LR or some PSB Alpha B1's for a bedroom setup. Would the PSB's be that much better to justify spending an extra $200?
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The SP-FS52 floorstanding version is on sale in Fry's weekly sale catalog for $77ea (limit two per household) through Thursday, March 28. The SP-BS22LR standmount version is on sale for $77/pr. It's not clear from the wording of the ad whether you must buy a pair of the floorstanders to get the sale price on the standmounts. :scratch:
http://www.frys.com/ads/audio-video-television-cameras-portable-car-electronics
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Rats, I just bought a pair of the floor-standers at BB for $125 each. Not going back across the border for a price match... . :lol:
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$77 each was too good a deal to pass on so I order a pair of the Pioneer SP-FS52 floor standing speakers from Fry Electronics.
If they are as good as the BS22 models but with better bass extension and a cleaned up treble they could be the real deal of the century.
They are back ordered at Fry until the end of the month, but stay tuned for a report on them after I get them.
Frank Van Alstine
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That is great price!!
You can have this price matched at bestbuy where they might have it in stock.
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I've got the small ones. I want a system out in the living room . Might have to keep a eye open for big ones.
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Dennis Murphy has taken a shot at mod-ing the FS52
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/84545-pioneer-sp-pk52fs-5-1-speaker-system-review-8.html#post958255
Would be interesting to see what others here might come up with. It sure is cheap enough to risk voiding the warranty.
Here's a progress report on my experiences with the FS52 towers and attempts to work up a mod. It's very tricky for me to say much about the sound of the stock version, since I have a conflict of interest. I'll just say that you get a heck of a lot of speaker for the money, but there are some things you just can't do (even if you're Andrew Jones) and still come in on budget. The 2.5 configuration adds to the complexity and cost. After listening to the speaker carefully, measuring it, tracing through the stock crossover, modeling it, and futzing, my opinion is that it would take more components to get the midrange out of the way sooner and to let the tweeter handle more of the chore in the lower treble. It's not exactly a state-of-the-art tweeter, and it needs to be rolled off fairly sharply to avoid overloading, but I think I was able to improve the clarity and presence of the speaker by reshaping the tweeter response and using a steeper roll-off slope on the midrange to get its breakup mode (which is not all that severe) suppressed further. I used the top of the cabinet as the design axis to avoid a crossover suckout at the normal listening position, which would be above the tweeter axis on this short tower. I also voiced the tweeter down so that it was flat with the midrange except for a peak at 15 kHz that I couldn't get rid of. My approach was to keep the stock crossover as is, and to simply add an additional circuit for ease of modification and economy. I added two resistors, 1 inductor, and 3 capacitors per side. The total parts cost is $30 - $40/pr depending on the quality of the capacitors used. I have to document everything and get someone to try out a Beta pair before I make the design available. Any current owners of 52's that would like to try out a pair for me to make sure the changes I've made are really going to make owners happy? The closer to Washington, D.C., the better. I'll pay shipping both ways if it's not too far.
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Andrew Jones is a really nice guy too. Back in the day when I was studying for my first degree at Essex University and in the early stages of obsession with audio stuff, Andrew was working on noise cancellation- I think it was the Wolfson Noise Cancellation Project, or something like that- at Essex. Even though I wasn't studying anything related to this, Andrew showed me the workshop/ lab and demonstrated a vast bandpass subwoofer that was being used for the noise cancellation project. He also gave me a preamp PCB for a preamp that was, IIRC, designed by his brother, who also designed the Pink Triangle Pip preamp.
Hi Toaster, Andrew here. I'm glad I was nice to you back then!!
I just found this thread. I can't seem to keep on top of all the different threads these speakers have generated. That's a good thing I guess :-)
I don't know if you realized, but my brother joined me in that research group, (causing constant confusion since he is my identical twin!), and in fact stayed on once I left for KEF. Our association with Pink Triangle originated from their founder, Arthur, being on my physics course at Surrey University. His was the first real hi-fi system I heard. Up to that point, we had a thorens TD-160/SME3009/Shure V15, Tandberg Reel-Reel, but a sinclair amp and forgetable speakers (ironic huh!).
Arthur had Quad 33/303, Decca London cartridge/Hadcock pickup arm, and ESL 57. I still remember the first record he played.
So, nearly 40 years on and I'm still doing speakers. Guess I showed no talent for anything else (well, Morris dancing maybe).
If any one wants to ask questions about the speakers, feel free within the rules of the forum. I'm not here to promote the speakers, just help those with genuine questions.
Regarding the proposed mods by Dennis, I'm happy that he has found a good low cost basis from which to experiment. Happy modding :-)
Andrew
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Welcome Andrew, great to have you notice our little forum. As much as everyone was impressed with the TAD designs (Pioneer builds high end speakers? Yup. How do they sound? Damn fine. Well, will pigs fly.) I'd have to say there's more buzz about these little guys.
So I have a question. You build a giant killer with the BS21's, I get to look like a hero to my non-audiophile friends by recommending them, they all love 'em, then overnight you redesign and come out with the BS22's. Now the unwashed friends don't care, they don't even know there's a new model, but we're curious as to why the change so quickly. Could you share your design goals in the change and how closely you think you achieved them? Thanks in advance for the response.
BTW, one more post and you won't have to go thru the onerous approval process for your posts, it's a spam prevention measure not directed at humans, gets rid of bots.
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Hi Toaster, Andrew here. I'm glad I was nice to you back then!!
This is awesome. :D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lCNvTAt-fY
Watch this till the end....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgXYSQv_DJw
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Watch this till the end....
Damn, I thought we were going to see Wolfy leaning on a speaker.
I had seen the first video, but not the second, good find. Andrew was kinda dry in his presentation of the TAD speakers, yeah, they're great speakers for $30k. But when he moved over to the BR series he lit up, I really think he likes these guys better than the megadollar speakers.
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Anyone know how good the subwoofer is?
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So I have a question. You build a giant killer with the BS21's, I get to look like a hero to my non-audiophile friends by recommending them, they all love 'em, then overnight you redesign and come out with the BS22's. Now the unwashed friends don't care, they don't even know there's a new model, but we're curious as to why the change so quickly. Could you share your design goals in the change and how closely you think you achieved them? Thanks in advance for the response.
Overnight!! Even I am not that good...;-)
Although if it was overnight at least i could have more time to spend on the forums :-)
So, I didn't really change the design that quickly. It had been on the market for over 18 months before I introduced the redesign. It might have seemed shorter just because it took time originally to build the buzz.
Why the redesign? Well, there are two reasons: As an engineer, I'm never finished and am always looking at what can be made better, but as a business, I have to stop somewhere (or more to the point, someone stops me ;-) ). So I always know what I want to explore next time. Secondly, we were forced into a change due to new regulations on Formaldehyde content in wood products. We met the existing regulations, but we knew new ones were coming along and we would have to meet these. This was going to put up the cost of the raw materials for the cabinet, so rather than just charge more for the same speaker, we decided to add a little more over the cost of the wood and make all those design improvements that I had been thinking about.
Simple things like changing the impedance level to better optimise the impedance to the capabilities of the receivers, improving the efficiency with larger magnets, better cone materials, vented pole pieces for improved bass linearity, increased suspension compliance for better bass tuning, improved waveguide design on the tweeter, and of course a new xover tuning to take account of all of these differences. The results I think are more linear response, and improved bass dynamics and extension.
We also changed the looks both to make clear that this was a new design and also in response to feedback. Not everyone liked the look of the metal grilles (apparently I am in the minority !) and had requested a more traditional look with a cloth grille.
I have to say it has been a really fun project for me, and at least I get the satisfaction of once again having something that my friends can afford!
Andrew
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Great answer Andrew, makes perfect sense. We're significantly impacted by government regulations in my business so I understand looking to future consequences and staying ahead of the curve (quite a few folks running around my office today because of a recent court decision). And since you're opening up the design why not do all the changes at once.
But it opens up a dichotomy around here if you've perused the pages of this thread. For those who have heard or own both the 21's and 22's, it seems to be universal approval that the newer speaker is an improved design, better detail, smoother response, deeper bass, cleaner treble, etc., yet there remains a fondness for the forgiving nature of the older design. Really brings into clear focus the compromises and opportunities of designing a product to a price point. As for the grilles, I remember Roy Allison telling me that the metal grills on my Allison 3's were acoustically transparent and there was no difference in response with them on or off, I will swear on my deathbed that they sounded better with them off. Thanks for the removable grills.
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I actually really like the metal grills on the BS41s I have. For the price I paid, I feel like they're really quite good. It's an especially exciting product because of the price point and because of it being fairly mainstream. I saw the line at Best Buy and was just really surprised to see a decent speaker there.
Andrew, thank you for the insight, many of us here are huge fans of your work. I don't know if you can answer this or not, but I'm curious as to whether you have a favorite amongst the lower priced speakers you've designed. I've been unable to hear anything between the super budget Pioneer speakers and the TADs, so I'm curious.
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I liked the first pair of SP-BS22-LRs so much, I bought a second pair for the garage for this summer. A couple of notes I could add is that I do not like the banana jacks on the back as they are not deep enough for standard plugs, however, a dual banana jack solves that problem. Secondly, was the grill's plastic structure made upside down? there are plastic weavings that go across the tweeter section, while the woofer opening is wide open. To me, this should have been the other way around.
BTW, The Absolute Sound published my letter to them about the speakers, in the March. 2013 issue (#231), and I called them "Freaks of Nature". I truly knew these speakers were something special with the first 3 notes. While the HF driver's off axis response must be awesome, I then was startled by the amount of bass, from the 4" woofer. BTW, my speakers are actually on a 12" shelf, and the rear port does not seem to be affected by it's close proximity to the wall.
Wayner
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Secondly, was the grill's plastic structure made upside down? there are plastic weavings that go across the tweeter section, while the woofer opening is wide open. To me, this should have been the other way around.
I was wondering about that as well.
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Secondly, was the grill's plastic structure made upside down? there are plastic weavings that go across the tweeter section, while the woofer opening is wide open. To me, this should have been the other way around.
Wayner
As always, there are reasons for everything, but they are not immediately apparent!
The grille is as thin as we can make it within the constraints of strength. If I had put ribs across the bass driver, it would have interfered with the movement of the bass driver, as the driver frame is flush mounted to the cabinet and I have an outward roll surround. On large bass excursions (remember, it's only a four inch, it has to move a long way to give bass) the roll surround would have hit the grille. Therefore, no ribs. If I had used an inverted surround, I might have got a bit more excursion, but typically inverted surrounds do not terminate cone resonances as well. If I had recessed the driver, the machining would cost more, the front panel would be weaker, and you would see the edge of the MDF, which would then need finishing or painting.
As for the tweeter, if I had also left off the ribbing, the grille frame would become too weak and might break. The major effect of the grille upon the tweeter respnse is not in fact the ribbing, but is the circular ring that is axi-symmetric, and that would be there regardless. And, in the redesign, you can at least remove the grille for critical listening :-)
Andrew
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Andrew,
Are you involved in the development of any of the European/UK Pioneer speaker designs? There's a dual concentric design called the s-71b that will probably never see the light of day here in the US.
http://www.pioneer.eu/uk/products/42/99/161/S-71B/page.html (http://www.pioneer.eu/uk/products/42/99/161/S-71B/page.html)
(http://www.pioneer.eu/images/products/speakers/pioneer/s71b_angle_gallery.jpg)
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I started this thread because the little pair of Pioneer SP-BS22 speakers Wayner convinced me to buy perform so way way way above their price, size, or social standing.
So when I discovered the floor standing SP-RS52 speakers, on sale at Fry Electronics in California for $77 each with free shipping, I had to give them a try too.
They are in my system running now being driven with either our new Synergy 450 225w/Ch solid state amp or our Ultravalve 35W/Ch vacuum tube amplifier. They are hooked up, level matched, to our new ABX box so we can switch speakers and driving amplifiers seamlessly. The speakers they are being compared right now to are our reference Salk HT3 floor standing speakers. Yeah, I know, comparing a $154 a pair set of speakers to a $6000 a pair set is not exactly fair, but it sure does provide a good standard.
Just to save some reading time for those that are impatient, the Salk HT3s win hands down. :)
However, the RS52 towers do have a lot going for them. They are very pleasant and musical through most of their range and when played at moderate levels. They have no obvious and annoying vowel tone colorations, the under-riding E, O, U, A sounds of speakers with many errors of commission and pretty usual in speakers anywhere near the price of these. The bass seems to be more tuned for good tonality rather than just more loud low frequency noise, again, a good thing in my book. They are pretty easy to drive, my Ultravalve tube amp drives then as loud as needed in my medium sized very well damped room. They are attractive, play with good dynamics, and are just dirt cheap!
Now for the problem areas with the RS52 speakers.
First, the tweeter, or whatever is guilty of most of the high frequency output, is rougher than then that in the SP-BS22 models, and that is the main weakness in this otherwise outstanding little speaker. The overall musical experience starts to get somewhat tiring when listening to the RS52 speakers at higher, but rational sound levels. This reminds me of things I heard at the recent Axpona show. Many rooms with smaller speakers were playing them pretty softly, not letting them "boogie" they way Jim Salk likes. I have a sneaking suspecion that some of these other speakers would stress out too at Salksound levels.
The overall balance of the RS52 is quite different than the Salk HT3 (no big surprise). In comparison the RS52 seems to have a dip in the lower midrange and an elevated upper midrange. This is not a big problem, just different. However the RS52 does loose polnts in that the overall midrange transparency is somewhat veiled too. Finally, they extreme top end is too bright and gets a bit obnoxious the louder the RS52 pair is played. I suspect this characteristic would be exacerbated with the lesser sonic quality of the HT surround sound electronics normally used to drive them.
AndrewJ, if you are listening, think about fixing the upper midrange, lower treble range which makes me cringe a bit whenever a female singer hits that high "E" sound/tone and then you would have a speaker to make lots of designers worry a lot.
As is, these are nice speakers at reasonable sound levels, but they are not performing as far above their contemporaries as the SP-BS22s do.
But at $77 each, or even at $129 list price each, they are probably as good as anyone shopping in this Cheap and Cheerful thread could buy.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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Oh yes, regarding the banana plugs on both the BS22 and the FS52, you can remove the red and black plastic plugs from their ends simply by unscrewing then knurled knobs all the way off and remove the plastic plugs. Then normal banana plugs will work just fine.
The plugs are in there to prevent idiots in England from plugging them directly into their AC power lines, which use the same plug spacing on their AC appliances as most of the world does for just instrumentation and audio interfaces.
Frank Van Alstine
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Thanks Andrew, I do listen to these speakers with the grill off. I am powering them with a fairly hefty Audio by Van Alstine Insight+ power amp (about 85wrms per channel) and a couple of days ago, I was listening to some NPR. Suddenly a bass moment erupted, and the room (11' X 14') was taking me back a bit. Getting a 4" woofer to accomplish such a feat is amazing, and I do tip my hat to you sir.
With this rough spot in the economy here in America, hell, the world, the needs for a quality, inexpensive speaker, just to make poor lint-in-the-pocket audiophiles smile is the ticket.
Are there plans for TAD to venture into an upscale speaker line that could be around the $700-$1k market.
Wayner
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Oh yes, regarding the banana plugs on both the BS22 and the FS52, you can remove the red and black plastic plugs from their ends simply by unscrewing then knurled knobs all the way off and remove the plastic plugs. Then normal banana plugs will work just fine.
The plugs are in there to prevent idiots in England from plugging them directly into their AC power lines, which use the same plug spacing on their AC appliances as most of the world does for just instrumentation and audio interfaces.
Frank Van Alstine
Of course I have the idiot plugs out, but single banana plugs do not set in far enough for my comfort level, and my BFA banana plugs are a no-go. I am using duals and that connection is secure, but not by much. Other speaker (and amp) manufacturers have a deeper hole for real positive banana plug contact.
Wayner
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I an wondering same as doublej, has anyone checked out the subwoofer, ??
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The plugs are in there to prevent idiots in England
Frank Van Alstine
Very very kind of you.
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Sorry Jtwrace, I should have said idiots anywhere, not just England, no offense meant for non-idiots anywhere. :)
Frank
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Hi Frank. I pretty much agree with your assessment of the 52's. I've been working with them extensively to see whether an inexpensive crossover upgrade was needed or feasible. I think I'm more bothered than you are by the veiled and recessed character of the upper midrange and lower treble. The tweeter definitely runs hot, although it is rolled off pretty sharply and early at the bottom end. If it were merely hot, the fix would be trivial. But the larger problem is that the midrange is having to handle more of the lower treble than it can do transparently. I've designed an add-on crossover mod that hands over more of the chores to the tweeter and rolls the midrange off more steeply. That definitely fills things in and adds detail. But I may be asking more out of the tweeter than it can handle. So far I've only listened in mono because I tipped my other tower over and messed up the tweeter. I just got a replacement speaker and am wiring up a pair of the mods this afternoon. I'll let you know whether I've improved things or just created a different kind of problem.
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I've been really interested in these for my vinyl room where all I have is shelf space, and I do all of my listening in nearfield.
(http://hosting.shotfarm.com/3/2/3/6/9/1_69e5fa883dc95d7/2_spin_0101s2.jpg)
They are the TAD TSM-2201-LR and sell for about $1900.
Wayner
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Oh yes, regarding the banana plugs on both the BS22 and the FS52, you can remove the red and black plastic plugs from their ends simply by unscrewing then knurled knobs all the way off and remove the plastic plugs. Then normal banana plugs will work just fine.
The plugs are in there to prevent idiots in England from plugging them directly into their AC power lines, which use the same plug spacing on their AC appliances as most of the world does for just instrumentation and audio interfaces.
Frank Van Alstine
You have that backward. Double-bananas were banned by the EU, not Parliament.
The old-school English plug is a rather large three-pronged affair.
(http://www.parts4ipods.com/WebRoot/Store3/Shops/es115703_shop/4941/50C4/7DBC/4313/CD60/50ED/8970/A107/uk_0020_plug.jpg)
By contrast, the EU-standard plug used on most of the globe is a double-round-prong (with optional peripheral ground contact) affair that is spaced basically the same as a US double-banana (19mm vs. .75").
(http://img0025.popscreencdn.com/102482858_sonar-schuko-eu-24k-gold-plated-power-plug-connector-.jpg)
Of course I have the idiot plugs out, but single banana plugs do not set in far enough for my comfort level, and my BFA banana plugs are a no-go. I am using duals and that connection is secure, but not by much. Other speaker (and amp) manufacturers have a deeper hole for real positive banana plug contact.
Agreed, the posts are a bit shallow for bananas with the plugs removed. Then again, I had the same issue with my Sherwood A-965 amp. I use the $6/pr screw-down compression spades from Home Depot* for the BS22's in my guest-room. They work just fine.
One could also snip the end off of a cheap sawtooth-style (often misnamed "BFA") banana, it would likely work just fine too.
*Can't figure out how to post named links so here's the URL: http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202788724?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=speaker+pins&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=202788724#.UVS_fqLYh8E
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Wow, I can't believe that Andrew Jones replied to this thread.
If Andrew is still listening, has Pioneer thought about releasing a higher quality bookshelf, say about $1k in price.
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*Can't figure out how to post named links so here's the URL: http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202788724?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=speaker+pins&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=202788724#.UVS_fqLYh8E (http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202788724?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=speaker+pins&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=202788724#.UVS_fqLYh8E)
Easy -
1. Type the name for the URL you want to use: GE Flat Speaker Pins
2. Highlight the name
3. Click the Insert Hyperlink button on the toolbar and paste in the URL
GE Flat Speaker Pins (http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202788724?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=speaker+pins&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=202788724#.UVTIlVeyImV)
Steve
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I picked up a pair yesterday at BB for $77. I am very please with the way they sound. They are a very enjoyable speaker to listen to in a secondary system or over achieving budget system.
I could not be happier with my purchase.
Thanks to Andrew for his efforts and personal insight to this great little speaker!
Scott
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Frank,
So you're saying the tweeter between the bookshelf BS22 and the floor standers are different? I wonder why since it would be more economical to share the tweeter for both models at this low price point.
Cheers,
Paul Mah
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Frank,
So you're saying the tweeter between the bookshelf BW22 and the floor standers are different? I wonder why since it would be more economical to share the tweeter for both models at this low price point.
Cheers,
Paul Mah
Yeh, i had the same question after reading Frank's assessment. I thought the tweeter was the same ...
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The mid-range drivers are 5.25" instead of 4" so there's a different crossover and the tweeters are probably "asked" to do more and being inexpensive can't handle it as well.
Plus-
I think I'm more bothered than you are by the veiled and recessed character of the upper midrange and lower treble. The tweeter definitely runs hot, although it is rolled off pretty sharply and early at the bottom end. If it were merely hot, the fix would be trivial. But the larger problem is that the midrange is having to handle more of the lower treble than it can do transparently. I've designed an add-on crossover mod that hands over more of the chores to the tweeter and rolls the midrange off more steeply. That definitely fills things in and adds detail. But I may be asking more out of the tweeter than it can handle.
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The FS52 floorstander has its soundfield affected by the addition of a midrange driver, but the tweeter, which I presume to be identical, is crossed over at the same 3KHz in both speakers.
Steve
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the model to get the Pioneer SR 21-LR? My impression is that these are a little up scale from and only marginally more expensive than the BR 22-LR, if at all.
I got the impression that the 21 was making Pioneer too little money because of the expensive parts and assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the 22 is the replacement designed to be more cost-effective. Yes, it is specified as being 1dB more sensitive, but that wouldn't deter me. I love my SR 21-LRs, especially with the ports stuffed with short bundles of drinking straws to tame the resonant (but extraordinary-for-its-size) bass.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the model to get the Pioneer SR 21-LR? My impression is that these are a little up scale from and only marginally more expensive than the BR 22-LR, if at all.
There was a previous poster in this thread (I'm pretty sure) who said that the 21's were a bit smoother (less edgier?) but the 22's did everything else better.
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I read quite a few short user reviews from various sites, and based on that my impression and guestimate was that of the people who owned both, 2 out of 3 preferred the new SP-BS22-LR and 1 out of 3 preferred the previous SP-BS21-LR.
According to Andrew Jones, the driver and crossover changes gave slightly better sound, while some other changes, like not routing out recesses for the drivers, simply made it slightly more economical to manufacture.
Steve
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Please excuse me; I was talking about the SP BS 41-LR which I own, not the 21-LR which I haven't heard.
I get the impression that anything in the Pioneer line in which Andrew had a hand would be good value, and those TAD TSM-2201-LRs which Wayner mentioned must sound pretty nice as well. I haven't seen that sort of woofer cone topography since the 1950s or 60s, and I can't remember the maker. It was a 15" with a series of raised protrusions all around the flare. They were used as studio monitors and apparently sounded very good.
Sorry for the wasted bandwidth.
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per dennis at AH forum:
Here's a progress report on my experiences with the FS52 towers and attempts to work up a mod. It's very tricky for me to say much about the sound of the stock version, since I have a conflict of interest. I'll just say that you get a heck of a lot of speaker for the money, but there are some things you just can't do (even if you're Andrew Jones) and still come in on budget. The 2.5 configuration adds to the complexity and cost. After listening to the speaker carefully, measuring it, tracing through the stock crossover, modeling it, and futzing, my opinion is that it would take more components to get the midrange out of the way sooner and to let the tweeter handle more of the chore in the lower treble. It's not exactly a state-of-the-art tweeter, and it needs to be rolled off fairly sharply to avoid overloading, but I think I was able to improve the clarity and presence of the speaker by reshaping the tweeter response and using a steeper roll-off slope on the midrange to get its breakup mode (which is not all that severe) suppressed further. I used the top of the cabinet as the design axis to avoid a crossover suckout at the normal listening position, which would be above the tweeter axis on this short tower. I also voiced the tweeter down so that it was flat with the midrange except for a peak at 15 kHz that I couldn't get rid of. My approach was to keep the stock crossover as is, and to simply add an additional circuit for ease of modification and economy. I added two resistors, 1 inductor, and 3 capacitors per side. The total parts cost is $30 - $40/pr depending on the quality of the capacitors used. I have to document everything and get someone to try out a Beta pair before I make the design available. Any current owners of 52's that would like to try out a pair for me to make sure the changes I've made are really going to make owners happy? The closer to Washington, D.C., the better. I'll pay shipping both ways if it's not too far.
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Perhaps you guys with the big egos, have chased Andrew away.
It always seems when we get a nice guy that is a show stopper, a bunch of folks here have to scare them off. I just wanted to know about some mechanical issues, some of you had to show off how "smart you are" evaluating 6K speakers to $156 dollar speakers.
Shame on you.
It's embarrassing.
Wayner
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Perhaps you guys with the big egos, have chased Andrew away.
It always seems when we get a nice guy that is a show stopper, a bunch of folks here have to scare them off. I just wanted to know about some mechanical issues, some of you had to show off how "smart you are" evaluating 6K speakers to $156 dollar speakers.
Shame on you.
It's embarrassing.
I guess you didn't realize that it was Frank Van Alstine who compared the Pioneers to a $6K speaker, the Salk HT3. I didn't get the impression that he was trying to show off how smart he was or that he chased Andrew Jones away, nor should he feel any shame or embarassment.
He in fact had good things to say about the Pioneer FS52.
I don't understand your post.
Steve
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I did realize it and thought that the comparison was way out of line, and way over board. I thought it was way over the top. Just my opinion on the tread. It was like comparing a ____ with a way over the top _____.
Wayner
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Andrew is a classy guy. I read his speaker design forum in the Absolute Sound and it was very interesting. From his point of view, i would never cross his line. let him develop his systems. To have Dennis Murphy work on "correcting" his speaker cross-over systems is, well good for Dennis. I find it amusing.
Wayner
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Wayner,
Relax, I don't think Andrew Jones is thin-skinned and I can't imagine he would take offense over anything in this thread, or Dennis' mods. Dennis is a good guy and is very humble and respectful. Also, with regard to the mods he developed for the 52's, AJ admitted he is not surprised someone could improve on the design, with a more complex crossover. In developing this line of speakers, he was constrained by a strict budget and had to draw the line somewhere.
Frank started this thread and it led to some very positive comments about the new Pioneer speakers. Heck, I even bought a pair, my second one, because of a thread like this one. These things are really nice and I look forward to Dennis Murphy's mods. He is a talented designer in his own right and he has always been very generous with his time and support to the DIY community.
This is a fun thread and I hope Andrew Jones, and the usual crew, continues the discussion.
Cheers
Jack
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Shame on you? Did he really just say that?
Andrew's probably a busy guy and he doesn't have to post here. Don't be so dramatic. And comparing budget speakers to reference speakers is not out of line...it gives one a frame of reference.
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Perhaps you guys with the big egos, have chased Andrew away.
It always seems when we get a nice guy that is a show stopper, a bunch of folks here have to scare them off. I just wanted to know about some mechanical issues, some of you had to show off how "smart you are" evaluating 6K speakers to $156 dollar speakers.
Shame on you.
It's embarrassing.
Wayner
Yeah, I know, comparing a $154 a pair set of speakers to a $6000 a pair set is not exactly fair, but it sure does provide a good standard.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
As pointed out above, it was your boss who said that. Perhaps Frank is embarrassed once again by your actions on this forum.
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Knowing Frank will never steer you wrong, I picked up a pair last Sunday at BB. And I must say that I concur with the comments here. Great sound right out of the box, and they do very well with low powered tube amps (EL84). Wonder if they’ll get any better after they’ve been run in for a while!
Many thanks to Frank and Wayner for getting the word out on these.
And here’s a half serious question for Mr. Jones, since he worked at KEF. These little guys come surprisingly close to my LS3/5as. Is that a coincidence? :-)
Best,
Mike
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Andrew is a classy guy. I read his speaker design forum in the Absolute Sound and it was very interesting. From his point of view, i would never cross his line. let him develop his systems. To have Dennis Murphy work on "correcting" his speaker cross-over systems is, well good for Dennis. I find it amusing.
Wayner
Dennis is not correcting, just experimenting to see if more performance could be squeezed out beyond the cost limitations Andrew Jones faced. Mr. Jones also replied to Murphy's post in that thread in general agreement:
Yes, as Dennis has found out, the speakers can no doubt be improved by throwing more money at them, Ces La Vie :-)
The trick was doing as much as I could at the price I was given. The extra components would not of course cost me that much, but there still had to be a cutoff in what I could spend, but it doesn't stop the purchaser from having a go themselves and seeing what can be done, though of course you will invalidate the warranty...
The point is that the speaker has been engineered to be great value and so has the potential to be tweaked if you choose to do so.
Have fun!
Andrew
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As we speak, quietglow is having his mind blown by these speakers...
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As we speak, quietglow is having his mind blown by these speakers...
So I text roscoeiii this morning saying I'd read this thread and was intrigued. I planned on stopping by Best Buy today to grab a set.
He replies, of course: I just got a set.
So I am driving these with my Dynaco ST-70 and they are improbable -- that's the word that keeps coming to mind. I have no idea where the bass is coming from. Very fluid, musical mids. The highs seem a little plastic or brittle, but they were new in the box an hour ago, so I am expecting some break-in.
Roscoeiii and I were listening to some monitors yesterday at Decibel (in Chicago). I'll skip the names, but one set was in the 3k range and the other set was close to 1k used. These Pioneers sound close enough to being in that range to boggle the mind at the cost.
Joe
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I think we can all relax and breathe :-)
I appreciate all the great things that have been said, and the support.
I'ts not about whether I'm thick or thin skinned. I just haven't had the impression that anyone is out to do me down or bolster their own cred.
I am extraordinarilly busy, so if I don't respond immediately to any particulay comment it's not because I have taken offence, it's only because I'm working on my next project!
As for comparing to a $6K speaker, I don't expect to come close. I just expect that mine will show that it's still possible to care at 1/24th the price and produce something that is enjoyable to listen to. In fact, I could accuse myself of doing much worse....comparing them to my $80k speakers :-)
I have previously said that I welcomed Dennis seeing if he can make improvements. I know I can! The trick is building it to the price it currently sells at. Adding 3 caps, an inductor or two and the odd resistor will probably allow better performance if done right, but I didn't have that option.
Take the BS22 for example. A lot of competing speakers at that price point have a single capacitor on the tweeter, or if you are lucky, an additional inductor on the woofer. That doesn't allow for much voicing. You are then at the mercy of the driver response, both in terms of what you can engineer in as a response, and of production variability. I managed to put in a six element network on the BS22, and eight on the FS52. Twelve, and everyone would have thought I had lost my mind :-)
The FS52 is actually quite complex in its interaction between the three bass drivers, their impedance levels, the network that I use to roll out the two bass units and roll in the bass /mid, and how they couple together acoustically in the common enclosure volume. The tweeter is common between the 22 and the 52, but works differently because of the differences in the midbass drivers.
I am fully aware of these differences in sound, and might even get it right next time ;-)
Meanwhile, they provide a good basis for tweaking should you have the skills to do so. Just realize of course that you void the warranty by doing so, so be careful. If something goes wrong you would have to purhase a new pair.....Oh, Wait, what am I saying...go ahead: Do anything you want with them :-)
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Hi Andrew,
Thanks for taking part in the discussion, and thanks also for some great speakers;l I use the Pioneer center in my 5.1 system, and I love it (although I did take the liberty of spray painting it gloss white to match the other speakers- Audioengine P4s).
I wanted the ask you: I'm a big fan of the KEF Uni-Q driver. Were you involved in developing that, and if so, any of that work carry over into the stuff you're doing now at TAD and/or Pioneer?
I'm working my way up to the Reference 1s, btw. Very gently. :lol:
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Thanks Andrew, I am really glad you are here on AC and at one twenty-fourth the price the FS-52s certainly are enjoyable to listen to. My thoughts were more centered on what if you had the budget so they only were at one twelfth the price of my own in house standards?
Which speakers would I be picking nits about then? :)
Remind me to tell you about Plasti-clay sometime. That is my next in house project for the BS22s.
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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I would only make one small comment about proposed modifications of either the BS-22 or FS-52. No one was upset when everyone on the planet decided they need to modify the Best Buy Insignia speaker, everyone jumped on board with their suggestions. Perhaps that was because the designer was anonymous. Over on the Polk forum the place is rife with mods for their speakers, it's a company sponsored site and no one takes offense. I would think Mr. Jones would take it as a great compliment that owners think his economical designs are so good that they are an excellent platform for modification.
I'm a little embarrassed that some AC members think it's their duty to "protect" either Andrew Jones or Pioneer from either critiques of or modifications to their products. I think both entities are strong enough to stand on their own. Let's all remember it's the Cheap and Cheerful circle with the emphasis on Cheerful. I hope Mr. Jones is having as much fun talking about this wonderful product and interacting with the owners as we are with it. Personally I'm looking forward to the proposed modifications and how their received.
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In addition to playing around with crossover mods, I'd be interested in thoughts on modding the cabinets. Probably a bigger payoff for the 52s than the 22s, but with a speaker built to this price point, the cabinet could probably be reinforced or otherwise modded to bump up their performance as well.
That said, just listened with quietglow to my pair that he is borrowing on his Dynaco 70. Really impressive speaker. Images superbly, and great sound overall. Also didn't seem too sensitive to placement, besides getting some additional bass when a bit closer to the rear wall.
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I would only make one small comment about proposed modifications of either the BS-22 or FS-52. No one was upset when everyone on the planet decided they need to modify the Best Buy Insignia speaker, everyone jumped on board with their suggestions. Perhaps that was because the designer was anonymous. Over on the Polk forum the place is rife with mods for their speakers, it's a company sponsored site and no one takes offense. I would think Mr. Jones would take it as a great compliment that owners think his economical designs are so good that they are an excellent platform for modification.
I'm a little embarrassed that some AC members think it's their duty to "protect" either Andrew Jones or Pioneer from either critiques of or modifications to their products. I think both entities are strong enough to stand on their own. Let's all remember it's the Cheap and Cheerful circle with the emphasis on Cheerful. I hope Mr. Jones is having as much fun talking about this wonderful product and interacting with the owners as we are with it. Personally I'm looking forward to the proposed modifications and how their received.
Good points. This is what cheep n cheer is about.
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Hi Wayner, good to have you back. These Pioneer speakers are getting so many great complements that I feel I need to go out and get a pair even though I don't need speakers right now. Rarely does that happen. Pretend Andrew Jones didn't reply to this thread. Now pretend I 'm at a blind folded listening session and I have no idea what speaker is playing against another or a few pairs. I know you like the Dyna-A25xl's and I like the whole Dyna line from 1969 to 1978. If I could not see what was playing, stone cold sober, or pretty loose on lagers and a Willie Nelson fatty on hand and heard the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR vs. any of those Dyna's I mentioned,what would you think I would pick, making sure I could not see any finish or size and also not knowing what I was listening to? Has chasing bass in a full range speaker system gone the way of the Dodo bird with our horrible economy? Can I approach the sound of a Magico,Wilson,or Rockport with a real good sub and these small wonders with fine tuning my ear to room surroundings and crossover frequency? Unless theres a speaker called the Enigma,may be Andrew Jones should of called them that. I can't wait to hear em....Mark Korda
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Unless theres a speaker called the Enigma,may be Andrew Jones should of called them that. I can't wait to hear em....Mark Korda
(http://i-enjoy.com.au/Images/inline/Enigma_Rosewood.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--QJ0vf2OiKI/TgdgrdHACGI/AAAAAAAADb4/ODq0v4T6VjQ/s1600/birdseye%2Bright%2Bno%2Bgrills.jpg)
(http://www.soundscapeav.com/enigma/droite.jpg)
(http://www.enigma-acoustic.com/AboutEnigma/text%20pic.jpg)
(http://canadahifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Apertura-Enigma1.jpg)
(http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/30/649023838_thumb_8ab63df0075d829d009a39e6e8c9b7d9.jpg)
(http://enigma-phil.com.ph/items/SPK-LOG-0030.jpg)
(http://www.whitegadget.com/attachments/other-gadget/13789d1218178352-kharma-grand-enigma-loudspeaker-kharma-grand-enigma-loudspeaker.jpg)
Enigma's all.
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Letitroll,thanks for the heads up,I didn't know.....Andrew J., I can't wait to hear them!. I'm 56 and remember the Pioneer 185 watt receivers in the 70's,and the turntable that was like the Sherman Tank,the PL-12 from Pioneer that a lot of my friends relied on. If Bernie Mitchell is still alive he would be so proud of your acomplishment......Mark Korda
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Looks like Best Buy is running a special this week on the Pioneers.
https://deals.bestbuy.com/#!/audio+amp+mp32
Ryan
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Thanks for the Best Buy Pioneer sale heads up. You have to scroll right to about page 22 or so of their current sale stuff to find the Pioneer speakers.
They have the matching SW-8MK2 powered subwoofer on sale for $111 and I could not resist and ordered one of these to go along with the BS22 minis discussed so much herein.
The SW-8MK2 has a 100W built in plate amp with line and speaker level inputs, adjustments for level, crossover frequency and phase. It has an 8 inch down firing bass speaker and a front port. I found a couple of user reviews that tend to say it has cleaner bass than others in this price class or even several hundred dollars more. Only short term down side I saw was spring loaded push wires in holes speaker wire connections. So much for using your gonzo cables! I plan on using the line level inputs anyway, has left and right channel RCA jack inputs for this.
I will report on these as soon as I get them up and running here in a few days.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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Only short term down side I saw was spring loaded push wires in holes speaker wire connections. So much for using your gonzo cables! I plan on using the line level inputs anyway, has left and right channel RCA jack inputs for this.
I know what you mean, I would rather see standard binding posts (even cheap ones) and for some reason I always feel a little better about a subwoofer if it has no speaker inputs at all, rather than spring-loaded terminals!
The other thing Frank, is that it has a captive power cord, so you won't be able to use your $3500 power hose. ;)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=47904)
Steve
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Looks like Best Buy is running a special this week on the Pioneers.
https://deals.bestbuy.com/#!/audio+amp+mp32
Ryan
I just ordered the floorstanders on sale (plus a $40 gift card I had laying around) to give to my very close friend for his birthday. He's a musician like me, and has remarked on my system and how great is it to have good sound at home, but otherwise he's a civilian. Can't wait to find out what he thinks. His wife might hate me forever if this launches the obsession :icon_twisted:.
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I know I can! The trick is building it to the price it currently sells at. Adding 3 caps, an inductor or two and the odd resistor will probably allow better performance if done right, but I didn't have that option.
Hello Andrew
Would you be willing to share what you would do to these to improve them for us DIY guys?
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I see on the Pioneer website that the MSRP has just gone up $30.00 on the BS22, FS52, and the subwoofer. Still a screaming deal though.
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I see on the Pioneer website that the MSRP has just gone up $30.00 on the BS22, FS52, and the subwoofer. Still a screaming deal though.
I guess that means if you're thinking about it - better buy them now while they are on sale because it looks like they won't be anymore.
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fwiw Amazon has the floorstanders on sale as well, "see price in cart". Appears to be same as BB. :thumb:
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I have my $77 Pioneers SP-BS22-LR's sitting on some stands I picked up for $25. I am using 1980's something Nikko integrated amp that I picked up for $20. Also a Toshiba DVD player as a source that I got for about 15 minutes of caulking. Cables are Kimber 4TC speaker cables I picked up for $30 and Monoprice interconnect cable that was probably @ $3.
So for just shy of $160 I have a very cheap and cheerful system that sounds very nice. The SP-BS22-LR's image very well, throw a nice soundstage and are very well balanced only missing the lower octave that you would not expect a 4" diver to touch. As I said earlier I am really enjoying them and I am very pleased with my purchase.
MLS
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Hi Frank. I pretty much agree with your assessment of the 52's. I've been working with them extensively to see whether an inexpensive crossover upgrade was needed or feasible. I think I'm more bothered than you are by the veiled and recessed character of the upper midrange and lower treble. The tweeter definitely runs hot, although it is rolled off pretty sharply and early at the bottom end. If it were merely hot, the fix would be trivial. But the larger problem is that the midrange is having to handle more of the lower treble than it can do transparently. I've designed an add-on crossover mod that hands over more of the chores to the tweeter and rolls the midrange off more steeply. That definitely fills things in and adds detail. But I may be asking more out of the tweeter than it can handle. So far I've only listened in mono because I tipped my other tower over and messed up the tweeter. I just got a replacement speaker and am wiring up a pair of the mods this afternoon. I'll let you know whether I've improved things or just created a different kind of problem.
I just wanted to close the circle on this. I've put in waaaaay too many hours on this project and ended up ordering three samples--quite an investment in time and $$$$. As for the stock unit, I can see how people would like these for home theater. The tipped up top end might add to the excitement and make dialogue more intelligible. The issues I have with the upper midrange would be much less noticeable on soundtracks than on heavily scored music selections. For serious music reproduction, however, I just can't get past the blurred nature of the upper midrange and lower treble. The large midrange driver is being overtaxed, and the tweeter isn't being given enough to do. My add-on circuit did help in this respect, but there are two fatal problems. First, it's just too much trouble to install. I wouldn't want to wish what I went through on anyone. There isn't enough room to work, and there's too much splicing and dicing. Second, no two of the 3 samples I bought measured alike. Two were moderately different, and a third was very different. The tweeter was the culprit. It's lower end extension and frequency response profile was inconsistent, and that left me without a single target to aim at. One of the tweeters had elevated harmonic distortion and rolled off much sooner than the others. I suspect the inconsistencies stem from nonuniform application of cooling fluid in the voice coil. The speakers still had a similar sonic signature, and I'm not sure you would spot the issue in home theater. But the QC issues are serious enough to discourage me from offering a crossover mod. I ended up replacing the stock tweeters with two venerable Vifa D27 silk domes, which fit perfectly. I adjusted my add-on circuit for the Vifa's, and the speakers now sound pretty much spot on. I've attached a frequency response taken at a normal listening position--a little above the tweeter axis and slightly off axis horizontally. The highs are flat, and the tweeter performs well lower down to add detail and transparency to the sound. If anyone is intersted in buying the result, you can have them for $100 each, which is less than I paid and includes the new tweeters and the extra crossover circuitry. I really don't need any more speakers.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78265)
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My Pioneer SW-8MK2 powered "subwoofer" arrived yesterday, $111 and free shipping from Best Buy.
We have it set up this morning with our pair of SP-BS22 speakers mounted on Sanus lowest price stands.
At the prices I paid, we now have a complete three piece satellite, subwoofer system for all of $275 including the stands.
The SW-8MK2 is a self powered unit with a built in 100W amplifier. It has back panel controls for phase, crossover frequency, and level. It also has a three position switch for either always on, music sensing on, or standby. It has both line and speaker level inputs, although the speaker level inputs are the dreaded spring loaded push the speaker wire in the holes type.
It has an 8" woofer firing down from the bottom of the enclosure, with a large diameter front port and a little blue LED on the front side.
Matching it to the main speakers is done by ear. Adjust the controls until it sounds right to you, and of course position in the room will make a big difference too. There is no "right or wrong" guidelines for it, just play with it until it sounds right with your speakers.
In my sound lab, I have the volume set just under half, the crossover at about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom, the phase switch set to zero, and the woofer itself out in the room beside one of the stand mounted BS22s. It is being driven from a Fet Valve hybrid preamplifier's second set of line level outputs. The main speakers are being driven by a Synergy 240 amplifier. This quickie setup seems to be useful for us.
In some systems a Harrison passive high pass filter might be useful. These are available at reasonable prices from Parts Express. These would be installed in line with the signals from your preamp to the main power amp to keep deep bass out of your small main speakers. We are not using them at this time, but I might order as set after I get an answer from Parts Express regarding how much the input impedance of the amplifier used affects the pass frequency of the filter. I have found no data about this so far.
Anyway, back to the SP-BS22 and SW-8MK2 system. It is one remarkably good system! Easily good enough to draw you into the music and ignore the electronic and mechanical parts and just enjoy the music. And this is exactly what your audio system should do for you.
Right now we are listening to a Telac CD of Travelin' Light with great tube player Sam Pilafian. The little system is doing a great job with.
The bass response of the SB-BS22 is way cleaner than I had expected and it caries a very low frequency tune quite well, it is definitely not a "boom box".
I call it really recommended to add a useful low frequency dimension to your small speakers. What the heck, at $159 list price and often discounted to one third off, you really can't go wrong.
Another winner, Mr. Jones.
Frank Van Alstine
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Dennis,
I'm sorry to hear the inconsistency of the stock tweeters prevented you from being able to recommend a crossover mod. The D27's you wound up using are most likely several tiers higher quality and at least ten times more expensive than the stock tweets. Your asking price for the modded speakers is an insanely good deal.
Do you have any plans to mod the bs22 monitors or has this experience soured you on Pioneer speakers? I like the 22's for the price but they use the same tweeters and I'm not sure they are worth upgrading if they have similar QC issues.
Cheers
Jack
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The variation I found in my sample of 3 was a little disturbing, but it was a small sample. It's hard to judge just how serious the issue is. But even if the tweeters had proven consistent, I still
wouldn't have offered my mod. It's just too complicated to install, paticularly in the cramped cabinet. As things go, the D27 tweet is very inexpensive. It's just a solid workhorse. I have no plans to try a mod
for the 22. There's no indication that it needs one. It's a much simpler design and I'm sure AJ did a fine job on them.
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The variation I found in my sample of 3 was a little disturbing, but it was a small sample. It's hard to judge just how serious the issue is. But even if the tweeters had proven consistent, I still
wouldn't have offered my mod. It's just too complicated to install, paticularly in the cramped cabinet. As things go, the D27 tweet is very inexpensive. It's just a solid workhorse. I have no plans to try a mod
for the 22. There's no indication that it needs one. It's a much simpler design and I'm sure AJ did a fine job on them.
Do you think that using a D27 tweeter and a standard 2500 hz x-over
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-142
would improve the sound of the 22?
(Obviously, it's just conjecture but you have heard the same tweeter.)
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I think it would be a terrible idea to use an off-the shelf crossover on the 22's, even with the new tweeter. I'm sure AJ did a much better job, and the superiority of his crossover would more than make up for any differences in the tweeters.
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OK guys, here's the deal. After reading about the little bookshelves for about 2 months, I waited for a sale at BB or Amazon. Do I have a need for these? Absolutely not. But for $90, my curiosity got the best of me. My head congestion is finally cleared up enough to where I can hear highs again. So, I thought I would see what all the hype is about.
Picked them up earlier in the week. Hooked them up about an hour ago. Still breaking in. These are some pretty small bookshelves. Cued up a Chesky recording of Sara K that I play on a regular basis on my big rigs. First my thought was, were these really only $90? Second thought was, these little bookshelves actually nail the most important of the audio spectrum pretty darn well, which is the midrange. Sara K sounds very natural. A sax cuts in and sounds almost live. This sax cut comes close to almost duplicating the big rigs at a reasonable volume. The highs are also fairly clean, but not nearly as crystal clean as the big rigs. However, the highs will not make you run from the room. They are pretty darn good. The bass: well their is some there, more than you would expect from such an inexpensive bookshelf with a 4 inch woofer. Sure the ported design helps. But don't expect chest thumps.
Next up Dave Clark, Take 5. Drums sound very natural. Alto Sax cuts in with a natural sound. Not a live sound by any means, but much more than I would expect from such a cheap speaker. Cued up a James Taylor cut. Male voice sounds good. Again, the total midrange is impressive.
Still playing, but quite surprised. If anyone is looking for a garage, small bedroom, den speaker or speakers to give to your kid as a starter system, there is no disappointment here. Just don't expect chest thumping bass or volume that will blow you against the wall. Make no mistake, this is an audio bargain not to be missed, if you have a need. Or if you are curious just like me, spend the $90 and smile as you listen to these little gems. Now, what am I going to do with these? Probably will give to my son for a garage system for the new home he is building.
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I just sprung for the 90.99 deal from Best Buy. I'll be comparing these to a pair of Hsu HB-1 Mk2s, so it should be a fair comparison. I'm driving them with all AVA equipment, an Insight DAC into a Transcendence Three FET/Valve driving an Insight+ 250. The source will be mp3s, wavs, flacs and CDs on my PC through an M2Tech HiFace, along with some CDs played on a Sony BDP-S185. I'm happy with my current set up, but this thread has me chompin' at the bit to try out the Pioneers.
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Hi All,
How do you think a pair of the SP-C22 as mains would compare to the SP-BS22's? I bought my daughter a pair of the SP-BS22's and think they are really nice for the money. Seems like the SP-C22's would hit the sweet spot between the tower and bookshelf models, no? Right now the SP-C22's would be $150 pair shipped from Tiger Direct. msrp is $129.00 each.
Thanks!
Ruben
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I was wondering that myself. Don't most dome tweeters have the same dispersion characteristics whether vertical or horizontal orientation? The +3dB sensitivity would be welcome as would 1/2 the cone excursion for a given volume.
Amazon also has them back on sale at $70/ea. or $140/pair shipped/
Steve
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I was wondering that myself. Don't most dome tweeters have the same dispersion characteristics whether vertical or horizontal orientation? The +3dB sensitivity would be welcome as would 1/2 the cone excursion for a given volume.
Given the wave guide I'm not sure there would be much of an audible difference whether placed in a vertical, or horizontal arrangement. I will be standing them on end. I can bang out some plinths for added stability if necessary. There might be some threaded inserts on the intended bottom of the enclosure for attaching those feet, but I'm not worried about it.
Increased sensitivity, greater SPL capability and lower distortion levels are big pluses. :thumb:
Amazon also has them back on sale at $70/ea. or $140/pair shipped/
Steve
Just placed an order. :green:
I suspect that these will prove to be the best in the line up for 2 channel use. (fingers crossed) I tried the towers and returned them. The SP-BS22's are great!
I'm kind of surprised that I wasn't able to find a singe post or review from anyone using these as mains. :scratch:
Frank, Is there any particular reason you haven't tried a pair?
Best,
Ruben
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z387/Outofthewoods/5086891_ra_zps9d247aa4.png)
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Outofthewoods,
Why did you return the towers?
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Outofthewoods,
Why did you return the towers?
The main issue was the top end. Much too bright when cranked and thus very fatiguing. They sounded quite good on their own for HT use though.
Best,
Ruben
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The main issue was the top end. Much too bright when cranked and thus very fatiguing. They sounded quite good on their own for HT use though.
Best,
Ruben
Got the towers new in their boxes here in my room, will hook them up tomorrow and see what I think. They're a gift for my buddy's b-day coming up.
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I had a pair of SP-C21 MTM to compare to the BS21 (previous version). I thought the SP-C21's were better in soundstage and dynamics. FWIW, I thought the MTM's were better deals than the TM.
Duc
Hi All,
How do you think a pair of the SP-C22 as mains would compare to the SP-BS22's? I bought my daughter a pair of the SP-BS22's and think they are really nice for the money. Seems like the SP-C22's would hit the sweet spot between the tower and bookshelf models, no? Right now the SP-C22's would be $150 pair shipped from Tiger Direct. msrp is $129.00 each.
Thanks!
Ruben
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Can anyone recommend a cheap receiver or integrated for under $200 to complete this set. Used or new it doesn't matter.
Thanks.
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Gene DellaSalla commented on the C22 (and FS52 if I remember) being a bit sibilant in the Audioholics review... and noted the sibilance was less noticeable on the BS22...
Curious if others notice/agree with this, particularly if trying out the C22's as main.
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Certainly no disrespect for any of the previous posters/comments, but believe the towers are getting a bit of a bum rap.
Owning both, I fully agree with Frank that the towers do not quite have the "magic" that the little brother has. I do not want to profess having the musical ear that Frank and Dennis have, nor can I wax as eloquently on the sound as those two extremely talented designers/legends have already done so, but would concur that the complexity of the crossover is the driving force. There is a separation of integration with the 52’s, which does not appear with the 22’s. Ultimately, the towers are not as fluid as the bookshelves.
The reality is though, these are $250 speakers.
I cannot comment on many other speakers in this price range, but imagine they all have compromises. I’m willing to bet Andrew did the best he could, within the constraints given to him. And based on the 22’s exceling at its price range, I’m betting the towers do too.
For me, I ended up with the towers in our family room system. Reasoning;
a) like the looks of the towers better – don’t have to mess with stands, nor the extra cost
b) able to get away without using the subwoofer - obviously not earth shattering bass, but there was not a lot of difference with/without….the subwoofer is really more of a woofer, than the sub part
c) my system is more geared toward home theater use, which with the slightly etched sound, serves its purpose better
I ended up with the bookshelves in our den system. Of the two, they are the better 2 channel speaker.
As with many things in life, it is about choices. What are the parameters, what are the constraints, what is the overall intent?
Anyone on the fence of either speaker, they are as good as advertised. Peace!
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Gene DellaSalla commented on the C22 (and FS52 if I remember) being a bit sibilant in the Audioholics review... and noted the sibilance was less noticeable on the BS22...
I understand the slight difference in treble presentation between the FS52 and BS22 based on addition of a midrange driver and different crossover.
However, I would expect that the BS22 and C22 would be more similar, both being a two way with the same crossover perhaps with only slight padding to accommodate increased sensitivity. I notice that the C22 has the same 6 ohm impedance as the B22, so I assume it's paralleled woofers are versions with twice the impedance.
Hopefully AJ might see this and weigh in on the C22's suitability as a pair of mains as well as any technical difference that might explain any difference in response, if in fact there is any.
Steve
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Can anyone recommend a cheap receiver or integrated for under $200 to complete this set. Used or new it doesn't matter.
It's a tough price point for integrated amps or receivers.
I have a friend who has the BS22 hooked up to a Best Buy Insignia NS-R2001 2 channel receiver ($130/$80 on sale), and the performance is lackluster at best.
If multiple inputs aren't needed the Dayton DTA-100a is a possibility, although I seem to recall a topic where someone was using one with a pair of the BS21 and felt that it didn't have quite enough oomph for them.
A number of people have been fairly satisfied with several models of Onkyo Factory Refurbished 2 channel receivers (Onkyo TX-8255 @ $120 and TX-8050 @ $200).
On the used market, the Pioneer A-35R and NAD C 316BEE integrateds are very good, but you may wait awhile for one to come up for sale.
If I were to extend my budget to $300, I would get the new Pioneer Elite A-20 which is the replacement for the discontinued A-35R.
Steve
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Can anyone recommend a cheap receiver or integrated for under $200 to complete this set. Used or new it doesn't matter.
Thanks.
Not sure if this is any good, but the price is right... http://www.echohifi.com/details/4028/Audio-Source_AMP-100
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Not sure if this is any good, but the price is right... http://www.echohifi.com/details/4028/Audio-Source_AMP-100 (http://www.echohifi.com/details/4028/Audio-Source_AMP-100)
There have been mixed reviews on the AudioSource AMP-100, but it is inexpensive. Amazon currently has it for only $92 shipped. It might be worth a try.
AMP-100 (http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6)
Steve
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78471)
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You might be able to find a Yamaha RX-V373 for around $179. If you live near a Frys check them out.
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Certainly no disrespect for any of the previous posters/comments, but believe the towers are getting a bit of a bum rap.
Owning both, I fully agree with Frank that the towers do not quite have the "magic" that the little brother has. I do not want to profess having the musical ear that Frank and Dennis have, nor can I wax as eloquently on the sound as those two extremely talented designers/legends have already done so, but would concur that the complexity of the crossover is the driving force. There is a separation of integration with the 52’s, which does not appear with the 22’s. Ultimately, the towers are not as fluid as the bookshelves.
The reality is though, these are $250 speakers.
I cannot comment on many other speakers in this price range, but imagine they all have compromises. I’m willing to bet Andrew did the best he could, within the constraints given to him. And based on the 22’s exceling at its price range, I’m betting the towers do too.
For me, I ended up with the towers in our family room system. Reasoning;
a) like the looks of the towers better – don’t have to mess with stands, nor the extra cost
b) able to get away without using the subwoofer - obviously not earth shattering bass, but there was not a lot of difference with/without….the subwoofer is really more of a woofer, than the sub part
c) my system is more geared toward home theater use, which with the slightly etched sound, serves its purpose better
I ended up with the bookshelves in our den system. Of the two, they are the better 2 channel speaker.
As with many things in life, it is about choices. What are the parameters, what are the constraints, what is the overall intent?
Anyone on the fence of either speaker, they are as good as advertised. Peace!
Spot on! Thank you.
You certainly get a lot of bang for your buck with these little towers. There is a thread on AH where they are receiving a lot of well deserved praise from many happy owners. Who knows, the pair I had could have been the product of poor quality control? If it wasn't for the listening fatigue I experienced I would have likely kept them. For HT (what they were designed for) they are great!
Ruben
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Spot on! Thank you.
You certainly get a lot of bang for your buck with these little towers. There is a thread on AH where they are receiving a lot of well deserved praise from many happy owners. Who knows, the pair I had could have been the product of poor quality control? If it wasn't for the listening fatigue I experienced I would have likely kept them. For HT (what they were designed for) they are great!
Ruben
And don't forget DMurphy here (last page) is selling 3 pair with better tweeters and x-overs for less than the price of new stock ones!
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Can anyone recommend a cheap receiver or integrated for under $200 to complete this set. Used or new it doesn't matter.
Thanks.
adydula (somewhere here on AC) has and likes this.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTX8050/Onkyo-TX-8050-2-Channel-Network-Stereo-Receiver/1.html
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The Onkyo 8050 2 ch AVR is the "bomb" when it comes to a real honest to goodness best buy for the money.....great all around AVR....2 ch...no HT 5.1.
The prices at accessories4less has great prices and yes they are refurbs, I and several friends have bought several avrs from this less than $200 wonder to the $1000 - $1500 AVRs never had an issue with this seller.
They are the factory authorized Onkyo dealer......
I would buy this receiver again...
Alex
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I understand the slight difference in treble presentation between the FS52 and BS22 based on addition of a midrange driver and different crossover.
However, I would expect that the BS22 and C22 would be more similar, both being a two way with the same crossover perhaps with only slight padding to accommodate increased sensitivity. I notice that the C22 has the same 6 ohm impedance as the B22, so I assume it's paralleled woofers are versions with twice the impedance.
Hopefully AJ might see this and weigh in on the C22's suitability as a pair of mains as well as any technical difference that might explain any difference in response, if in fact there is any.
Steve
Well, Audioholics shows the measurements, and the C22 is elevated a bit in the treble compared to the BS22...
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/pioneer-sp-pk52fs/pioneer-sp-pk52fs-measurements
I wonder how the treble measures with the C22 vertically oriented, since the baffle width in the horizontal plane would then be the same as the BS22.
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Well, I am now sitting in front of a brand new pair of Pioneer SP-FS52 floorstanders, listening to the 2008 Brad Mehldau Trio live album at moderate volume.
I am very pleasantly surprised at the sound quality of these right out of the box. They have a nice tonal balance to my ear, and richer bass than I expected. They spec the low frequency extension to 40 Hz, but in room it to go seems a bit lower than that. The imaging is good, with a decent soundstage. Very nice to listen to.
They're not anywhere near as dynamic, coherent, or extended (bass) as my Soundfield Audio Monitors, and the midrange is slightly veiled (that might open up a bit with more hours), but for 1/6th the price (got 'em for $150 for the pair)... damn fine speaker system.
PS - Just torture tested them with James Blake's cover of 'Limit To Your Love', which has very deep infra bass parts.... not bad for a couple of 5.25" bass drivers!!!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78502)
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Hi everyone, I just registered and posted so I would get notification the next time the BS22's are on sale. :lol:
I have a little Lepai amp that I'm hoping to use with these, just for my office so volume is not required.
Thanks!
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I feel so...used.
Seriously, welcome madmaxmedia. I hope you find there's more to AC than BS22's.
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Welcome to AC madmaxmedia,
I to hope you find that there is more to AC than notifications of sales on gear we like.
How many watts does your little Lepai amp have? As you may know, somewhat counterintuitively, small bookshelf and monitor speakers often require more power than some larger speakers. So the 22s may be best with more power than you currently have on hand. quietglow is driving these with a Dynaco ST70, which is 35 W per channel, and they sound great in that set-up. But even if the Lepai has 35W or so as well, it may not work, since solid-state watts are often not considered equivalent to tube watts. Due to the different clipping characteristics of tubes vs. SS, IIRC. Tubes are said to "soft clip" and thus be less problematic when driven over their amp's rating.
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Hi everyone, I just registered and posted so I would get notification the next time the BS22's are on sale. :lol:
I have a little Lepai amp that I'm hoping to use with these, just for my office so volume is not required.
Thanks!
hello Mad Mx, I'm driving mine quite well with the Dayton DTA-100A. It uses the 2050 chipset, as the Virtue one does. It provides a solid 30 watts per and sounds great.
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Thanks for the replies guys! My Lepai amp is rated at 20W RMS which is on the low side, but this is for near field listening in my office anyway. I just want it to play cleanly at lower volumes, and don't need a lot of bass. If anyone has better suggestions for speakers ($100 or less), I would love to hear them. Otherwise I figure these bookshelves would be a good choice, especially if I move them into the house later. I also have an old Harman Kardon solid-state amp that I really like, but it's too big for the office (maybe under the desk though, hmmm....) 8)
I try not to spend too much time at hifi websites, if only to protect my pocketbook. :lol: I used to have a Zen tube amp and some Axiom speakers that I really liked, but after a move and other stuff I ended up selling them.
Right now I have a Bose Companion 3 Series II which I got for a reasonable price (cheap enough that I could sell and break even for sure if I switch.) I know all the back and forth about Bose, but I like the TrueSpace effect while listening at my desk. For certain types of music it sounds great. Put some loud rock on it though and the little satellites get overwhelmed and sort of turns to mush.
A forum question- is there an option to receive email notifications when there are replies to a thread? If so, I can't seem to find it.
Cheers!
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OK Frank, I went ahead and did it. There is now 2.5 pounds - I guess I could have put in 3 - of non-drying clay coating (mostly) the insides of each cabinet.
What effect does it have? Well, on my modest Denon system, the high and mid-frequencies are now more forward. More there there. Riding cymbals used to sound ssssss but now they sound ssshhhhhh. More like they should. I think that the bass is somewhat tighter - but probably not a whole lot because the low lows come out of the port. It doesn't improve the soundstage (where the instruments are "floating" on the stage) but it does improve the imaging - the exact location of where the instrument/voice is coming from. [Those, I think are the correct definitions.]
Everything has more "snap" to it. Much better!
An interesting side benefit - on some of my mediocre recordings in which I thought I was hearing high frequency digital/component harshness has softened up, making it somewhat more listenable. :thumb:
Recommended!
Caution!
The allen screws are pieces of crap! I'd recommend pulling one out and going to the store and buying 16 Phillip's screw replacements. (I've stripped two putting them back in.)
Plus, when you pull off the (internal wire) connectors from the speakers, there's a little hook-tab that needs to be squeezed to pull them off.
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A forum question- is there an option to receive email notifications when there are replies to a thread? If so, I can't seem to find it.
Cheers!
MadMax -Check in your Profile, under Notifications. you can make your selections there, as well as at the bottom left of the 'post/reply' box, there is a box to check for "Notify me of replies". Selecting the box on the "Post/reply" box should send it to a list in the Notifications, where you can later un-select.
fwiw, as has been noted, for $75 +/- on sale, these are some very nice 'bang for the buck' speakers. Am currently running them as front L/R on the HT system driven by Yamaha Receiver w/ 85 wpc. Just setup so no particular impressions yet. Initial test was in main 2 channel w/ 250 wpc, and given their limitations they were most respectable. 8)
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I understand the slight difference in treble presentation between the FS52 and BS22 based on addition of a midrange driver and different crossover.
However, I would expect that the BS22 and C22 would be more similar, both being a two way with the same crossover perhaps with only slight padding to accommodate increased sensitivity. I notice that the C22 has the same 6 ohm impedance as the B22, so I assume it's paralleled woofers are versions with twice the impedance.
Hopefully AJ might see this and weigh in on the C22's suitability as a pair of mains as well as any technical difference that might explain any difference in response, if in fact there is any.
Steve
Well, I got the C22's hooked up and gave them a quick listen. I like 'em! :thumb: A big surprise to many was the bass output of those little 4" drivers in the B22's. With 4 of those things going I can feel the punch in my chest! They are a bit brighter than the B22's, but that may mellow out some as they break-in. I'll give them some time and see how they act. If they end up needing a little tweaking I'll send them to Danny and let him work his crossover magic. :wink:
Thanks AJ! :thumb:
Ruben
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Well I've been doing some serious listening since I got the BS22s yesterday. I don't have anything at all intelligent to add to the conversation - I've just been listening to music. Seriously cranked (the volume, that is), with and without subs. These puppies really pack a punch. It may be a while before I actually compare speakers - I'm that involved in the music. There are some things I notice that I didn't notice before, but I can't say that they're different, only that I'm totally engrossed in the music. Sorry to take up so much bandwidth to say essentially nothing, but these things are quite impressive!
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You're saying a lot. Getting lost in the music, unable to analyse, is the best compliment you can make to a component or recording.
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If audiophile hell is listening to your gear instead of your music, then he is in audiophile heaven. :)
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Are there and deals on the Pioneer speakers right now?
The Amazon price is up to $145.00.
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Are there and deals on the Pioneer speakers right now?
The Amazon price is up to $145.00.
Doesn't look like anyone has them on sale right now, but keep in mind when you check Amazon, the page may come up defaulted to Amazon's price or one of their marketplace vendors. In this case, the $145 price is from one of their vendors, Premier Audio Video, but on the right side of the page are links to other vendors, including Amazon itself. Current Amazon price is $127.49, and the majority of other vendors have them for ~ $130.
Since this topic started they have gone on and off sale every few weeks, so save the link to Amazon and check regularly, just make sure you are looking at the Amazon price.
Steve
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Are there and deals on the Pioneer speakers right now?
The Amazon price is up to $145.00.
Keep an eye on NewEgg too. It is often mentioned as also having these on sale. Best Buy as well.
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Pioneer raised the retail price on them because they've become popular (I assume.) $129 may be the discount price on them from now on.
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Pioneer raised the retail price on them because they've become popular (I assume.) $129 may be the discount price on them from now on.
Yeah, we should be telling Andrew, "Ah, they suck, the only way you'll sell any is to lower the price way down". Instead we tell him how great they are and how they beat speakers 4x their cost. I guess it's true, you'll never go broke underestimating an audiophile's intelligence. :duh:
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Pioneer raised the retail price on them because they've become popular (I assume.) $129 may be the discount price on them from now on.
I'm pretty sure I had seen them on sale in the low ~ $90s after the MSRP increased from $129 to $159, but I haven't seen the earlier $70 sale price since then. We'll see.
Steve
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I'm pretty sure I had seen them on sale in the low ~ $90s after the MSRP increased from $129 to $159, but I haven't seen the earlier $70 sale price since then. We'll see.
Steve
Don't forget there's still the stock on hand that stores bought before the price increase - but yup, we'll see.
As a reference, I bought mine at the end of Feb. and they were manufactured in Jan.
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The price on the Pioneers are actually $127.49 on Amazon. But when you search Amazon it always shows the higher price of $146. What you need to do is, click on the "3 new offers" and select the one where it is sold by Amazon (and not their 3rd party). Once you put this in the cart, you will see the price of $127.45. This was how I did a price match with the local BestBuy.
I plan to use the SMSL SA-98 amplifier (65W X2 8 ohms) with this speaker. The source would be our iPod. Eventually will buy the Pure i-20 dock to complete the setup. This setup is for wife and kids. Wife insisted that I spend no more than $300 for their living room music system. I believe, with the Pure dock, I will reach $350 with a good speaker wire and interconnect. But I convinced her that it would be a much better system than the Audioengine A2 or A5 that I intended to get. Did consider the Airmotive 4, but later dropped this idea.
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Hooked up these little gems with a 15 year old PSB 8 inch passive sub I had laying around. Took them to another level for sure. The old passive sub was designed to pair with the little PSB Alpha's I purchased in the mid to late 90's. Assume crossed over in the 60 to 80 HZ. range, but don't know for sure. Surprisingly good match. :thumb:
Original post:
Needed to take a minute and show off my new "little" Pioneer bookshelf speakers. Here is a picture of my little Pioneers amongst the big boys. They are the small boxes between the Dunlavy 4A's and the Legacy Whisper XD's. In the middle is the archaic 15 year old 8 inch PSB passive sub I hooked up to supplement the bottom end of the little 4 inch mid/woofer in the Pioneers. Yes, they are outgunned. However, not totally embarrassed by any means. They share some of the same attributes with the big boys. It is hard to believe I am listening to an under $200 speaker package. (Pioneers $90 on sale plus tax and the 15 year old PSB was $99)
Thanks TT for posting the picture below. I was unsuccessful trying to post.
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Post picture for Donald :wink:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=79413)
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Donald tha is an impressive room. Sure it is not a store showroom?
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...I believe, with the Pure dock, I will reach $350 with a good speaker wire and interconnect. But I convinced her that it would be a much better system than the Audioengine A2 or A5 that I intended to get...
You bring up an interesting question... not so sure they would sound better than the Audioengine A5, you will certainly have more pieces to the system... I would love to read any thoughts, or an actual comparison between them because (like you say) cost is about the same [for speaker+amp+dock] I have a pair of A5s and they make for a really great and simple little system, and the A5+ is supposed to be even better. I have been contemplating picking up a pair of 22s to set up at work, or for use as surrounds...
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funkmonkey,
You are right. I will have more pieces in the system. But I am trying to keep the cost down. At the same time, I will have the chance to explore different speakers in the future. The A5+ and the Emotiva Airmotive 4 were very high in the list. But when the price challenge came in, I decided this route. I will post my experience once the complete setup is up and running....which should be at least a week and a half.
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For those still looking, believe they are on sale at Fry's for $69 this week.
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The local Walmart has started carrying speakers and receivers. They now stock the spbk 21s for $78 and Sony's entry level speaker for $65. The also carry Sony's entry level sub. Hopefully they will start to carry the sp bs22 after they sell out of the 21's.
A nice change for Walmart. They just don't carry the soundbars and HTIB's anymore.
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Hey guys,
Is everyone still enjoying these? I like mine but don't have them connected at the moment. Also, did we scare Andrew Jones off?
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Hey guys,
Is everyone still enjoying these? I like mine but don't have them connected at the moment. Also, did we scare Andrew Jones off?
Hey Jackman,
Yep, still enjoying mine!
I bought a pair of the BS22's for my kid and a pair of the C22's (MTM center channel) for me. The sibilance that the towers (bought and returned) produced was there in the C22 as well (although they sounded better than the towers overall). I ended up swapping the crossovers between the BS22's and C22's and WOW!!! That's what I was after when I bought the C22's. A bigger sounding version of the BS22's! :thumb:
My 13 year old daughter prefers the "clarity" of her BS22's with the C22 crossovers, so it's a win-win. :D
Best!
Ruben
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Hey guys,
Is everyone still enjoying these? I like mine but don't have them connected at the moment. Also, did we scare Andrew Jones off?
I took mine to a friend's place and hooked them up to some expensive electronics. The high highs definitely roll off and they sound better with a sub but they hold their own against very expensive speakers. Using a sub with the 22's is highly recommended.
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These speakers are awesome. I finally put our living room system in place.
This is where the kids love to dance to their favourite tune.
Here is the link to my system:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vscnd&1367787674&read&3&zzlMilpai&&
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Other than a post on 4/26 that referenced a $69 sale at Fry's (where they were referred to as either Famous Brand or Manufacturer), the price has been steady at ~ $130. Today (5/12) Best Buy put them on sale for $100 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Pioneer+-+4%26%2334%3B+Bookshelf+Speakers+%28Pair%29/5086955.p;jsessionid=0D2EA13F571D82E2315E513878FD6FAA.bbolsp-app03-135?id=1218610014045&skuId=5086955&st=sp-bs22-lr&cp=1&lp=1).
Steve
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I think $98 is the everyday price here (edit: these are the older 21 model).
http://www.walmart.com/browse/stereos/speaker-systems/pioneer/3944_133251_96890_78837/YnJhbmQ6UGlvbmVlcgieie?_refineresult=true
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I think $98 is the everyday price here.
http://www.walmart.com/browse/stereos/speaker-systems/pioneer/3944_133251_96890_78837/YnJhbmQ6UGlvbmVlcgieie?_refineresult=true
Those are the older model 21.
Steve
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Picked up another set at Fry's when they were on sale. Took the earlier pair I bought my son and just for kicks, inverted it on top of the other ones so I had a stacked pair for each channel. Definitely took the level up a notch or two. In addition, increased the overall playback db level available for larger spaces. Still imaged well and now you could "almost" feel the bass. (sub still rec.) However, would not take much to topple over. Not recommended with little ones or pets around unless found a way to permanently stabilize.
After a listening session in a secondary system, kinda hate to give his pair back to him. :duh:
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Those are the older model 21.
My bad, I didn't pay enough attention because I thought the 21s were all gone. :scratch:
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SP-BS22-LR on sale online from Best Buy for $99 right now with free shipping...
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SP-BS22-LR on sale online from Best Buy for $99 right now with free shipping...
Best Buy Link... (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&_dynSessConf=&id=pcat17071&type=page&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960&saas=saas&st=Pioneer+SP-BS22-LR)
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Also check the store availability tab, they are in stock at that price at two of the three stores in my area.
I'm not really sure about the online sale price policy at BB, I believe they offer the same price on the sales floor as online? Unlike WalMart who's online price is never honored in the store.
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I'm not really sure about the online sale price policy at BB, I believe they offer the same price on the sales floor as online?
You can buy them online and pick them up at your local store. (Where I am, one pays tax either way.)
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Frys has them for $77 a pair.
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Frys has them for $77 a pair.
I pulled the trigger this am and got them for $99 (Thanks for Best Buy link lonewolfny).
I got home, played half of a Dianna Krall song on my regular speakers then the same song with the out of box BS22's. What can I say? They blow me away on her vocals and the bass effect seemed lower than it is on the double bass line. WIll be up late tonight now I bet.
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Also, "thanks Lonewolfny," I also saw your Best Buy link this morning ans ordered a pair! When I receive themI will give a reply on how they sound to me. Looking for a decent sounding pair of speakers to go with my computer.
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Frys has them for $77 a pair.
These are coming up as $129.99 (http://www.frys.com/product/7327224?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG).
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These are coming up as $129.99 (http://www.frys.com/product/7327224?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG).
Yes, the $77 price is listed on the Weekly Page 2 print ad, but online it is listed for $129.99.
There isn't a Frys in my city, so yesterday I called them and asked if I could order them online for $77. I was told yes, we could place the order over the phone as there is no mechanism available to get the sale price ordering online.
I received the order verification yesterday and the shipping notification this morning. I was charged $77 (free shipping) + $5.47 sales tax (there are two Frys stores in my state) for a total of $82.47.
They are expected to arrive on Friday.
Steve
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Steve, was nice of you to take the time to explain, thanks so much.
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Just called over to Frys, did not have the same experience as Steve.
I 1st was told that I could not get the $77 price, that it was an in-store price only. I explained that I'd just read that someone else had gotten the special price via calling in. Was put on hold for 5 minutes. Was subsequently told that the warehouse now has none in stock, and that the item was at the sale price but subject to availability.
However, Fry's ad does not say "subject to availability" for the Pioneer speakers; it does for other items. :scratch: Anyone else having this issue?
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I have mne horizontal on top of my Clements.Very clean and super easy to hear everything in the recording.They take a good blast of power and still sound super at low volume.
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I will need to build some speakers stands for mine. Have you all any thoughts on height of this speaker and do they sound best flat or with a few degrees of tilt?
Reread thread. 24" stands.
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Oh my. Did I just push my $999 speakers back to put $99 in their place?
Really love them on string instruments. I am listening to assorted pieces by János Starker.Not at high volume, but I get an occasional and short, sharp buzz. Not sure what it is yet.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=80559)
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Just called over to Frys, did not have the same experience as Steve.
I 1st was told that I could not get the $77 price, that it was an in-store price only. I explained that I'd just read that someone else had gotten the special price via calling in. Was put on hold for 5 minutes. Was subsequently told that the warehouse now has none in stock, and that the item was at the sale price but subject to availability.
However, Fry's ad does not say "subject to availability" for the Pioneer speakers; it does for other items. :scratch: Anyone else having this issue?
You might try Best Buy if you have one nearby. When I purchased mine back in March at BB, they matched Fry's sale price. But it took me about 15 minutes of two salespeople and two managers scratching their heads over it. The fact that the Fry's weekly special price was 77.00 and the regular listing for the BS22's showed 129.00 at the same time seemed to have them all discombobulated. So, like your phone conversation with Fry's, it's a crapshoot but maybe worth a try.
Mike
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You might try Best Buy if you have one nearby. When I purchased mine back in March at BB, they matched Fry's sale price. But it took me about 15 minutes of two salespeople and two managers scratching their heads over it. The fact that the Fry's weekly special price was 77.00 and the regular listing for the BS22's showed 129.00 at the same time seemed to have them all discombobulated. So, like your phone conversation with Fry's, it's a crapshoot but maybe worth a try.
Mike
I had the same exact experience. Well worth it. :D
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Oh my. Did I just push my $999 speakers back to put $99 in their place?
Really love them on string instruments. I am listening to assorted pieces by János Starker.Not at high volume, but I get an occasional and short, sharp buzz. Not sure what it is yet.
I'm so glad to hear that someone else has discovered this speaker's way with string music. (I haven't experienced the sharp buzz.) I love classical music, especially chamber music, and these little Pioneers have quite a beguiling way with things like violins and celli. In fact, they are right now standing side-by-side with my Harbeth Compact 7ES-3s. There's no way I'm saying the the Pioneers are better than the Harbeths, but there is an undeniable charm in the way the Pioneers handle the tone colors and textures of the music I love. When listening to them, I really have no urgent craving to return to the Harbeths. Not too bad for speakers that are about 27 times cheaper!
-Bob
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hesson11 I would also recommend Mathew Halsall's "Fletcher Moss Park as another sounds good on the BS22 album since you like jazz. Tell me if the bass line is just a tad '"fat" compared to other recordings with a lot of acoustic bass. Still amazing to feel and hear so much bass from a 4" mid driver. So easily powered by my old yamaha integrated amp too.
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I have to try a pair of these. If anyone sees another sale,please PM me.
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The floor-standers ( SP-FS52) are on sale at BB this weekend for $99 a pair, reg. $125...Amazon is price-matching at $90....unfortunately the sub and the bookshelves are not... :cry:
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Try the Axiom M2v3's. James Tanner of Bryston uses the same drivers as (Axiom) in his new line of speakers. (James speakers not cheap by the way.) For the money the M2v's beats Pioneer by a mile long.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=81060)
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The floor-standers ( SP-FS52) are on sale at BB this weekend for $99 a pair, reg. $125
$99 each
Steve
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Urp! Missed that, apologies to all... :oops: Still, its' $50 less than what I paid for a pair....
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For the money the M2v's beats Pioneer by a mile long.
The Axioms sell for $338/pair. The Pioneers have an MSRP of $159 but have been selling from between $77 to $130/pair, so probably not the best comparison, at least without any details.
That said, in the near future I will be comparing my Pioneers to two other small bookshelf speakers that I own (B&W and KEF) that sold for ~ $250 new and can be found on the used market for ~ $125.
In what specific areas did you find that your Axiom M2 v3 outperformed your Pioneer SP-B22-LR?
Steve
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My first set of speakers were Pioneers. Loved them. Hooked on audio ever since. Check out the Axiom M2v3's at a bargain price. They blow away the other speakers at their price point. James Tanner uses the Axiom drivers in his new line of speakers. Enjoy the music.
Try the Axiom M2v3's. James Tanner of Bryston uses the same drivers as (Axiom) in his new line of speakers. (James speakers not cheap by the way.) For the money the M2v's beats Pioneer by a mile long.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=81060)
The Axioms sell for $338/pair. The Pioneers have an MSRP of $159 but have been selling from between $77 to $130/pair, so probably not the best comparison, at least without any details.
In what specific areas did you find that your Axiom M2 v3 outperformed your Pioneer SP-B22-LR?
Steve
Second time he has shilled for Axiom enthusiastically promoted Axiom in this thread (let alone all the other times :roll:), I doubt that he has ever heard the Pioneers. :nono:
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I just bought a pair of the Pioneers from Tiger Direct for 90 bucks plus 10 for shipping. :thumb:
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Tom, congrats. The Pioneers are fun and good sounding speakers.
I don't think that Axiom guy is a shill, just a very enthusiastic fan of Axiom. Shills get special deals from manufacturers and when they are discovered, defend their actions by saying they are beta-promoters. There are a couple master-beta promoters floating around but not for Axiom.
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Thanks Jackman, I will be pairing it with a 90 dollar Class D amp that I bought off of EBay last week. I am searching for the ultimate Cheap and Cheerful system.
What is the break-in period on these speakers?
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Mine sounded pretty good out of the box. Those 4" woofers are interesting. Post pictures or info on the cheap amp you picked up. Cheers.
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Mine sounded pretty good out of the box. Those 4" woofers are interesting. Post pictures or info on the cheap amp you picked up. Cheers.
This is the one I bought for 90 bucks. So far it sounds very smooth and entertaining.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120931530870?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
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The other component in my system will be either the HRT Streamer or the IFI Micro IDAC. Either will make up a sub 500 buck system, but with the HRT, the system will be only 350 bucks. I would say that would be a Cheap and Cheerful system. :D
But with the IDAC, you could also play your headphones. Not too shabby for 500 bucks.
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Tom, congrats. The Pioneers are fun and good sounding speakers.
I don't think that Axiom guy is a shill, just a very enthusiastic fan of Axiom. Shills get special deals from manufacturers and when they are discovered, defend their actions by saying they are beta-promoters. There are a couple master-beta promoters floating around but not for Axiom.
You are correct! I think what is trying to be articulated here is that there are some pretty good speaker mfgr's out there that don't require a 2nd mortgage... that pound for pound are amazing products (Axiom, Aperion, Ascend, Energy et al). It appears these Pioneers are fitting within this cat and rightly so, from the testimonials were reading. If we were to read a personal review of Ascend's CBM 170-SE's for example will it get the attention and activity as the SP-BS22's? Probably not, but it should.
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I have not heard these groundbreaking Pioneer speakers, but I finally saw one at Best Buy. There was no one around so I popped off the grill. The woofer was about as big or wide as my fist. How can you say that these speakers produce any kind of acceptable bass as all who heard them claim. It does not look physically possible,and the driver looks like it's mass produced in China. Andrew Jones must know something no one else knows. I looked at the back of them and it reminded me of a pair of Sonus Fabers from Italy I saw at Tweeters 10 years ago. Great connectors, flared port,and Andrew Jones signature. I wish I could of heard them. Can a woofer that size really compete with a 10 inch 2 way?, or does the mid range stand out so much that we forget about the low end ,sans sub woofers,and get more emotionally involved in certain types of music and not all of it. The finish looked great! .....Mark Korda
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Mark, it depends on which 10"ers you're comparing them to. They're not Wilson Sophia's or Salk Soundscape 10's, but I think what people are saying is the speaker produces reasonable bass for a small, inexpensive bookshelf, so they might beat out a low quality 10"er in bass SQ, enough to make it seem as though there's more bass. And they don't seem to do that by boosting the midbass like so many speakers do. Frequency response: 55Hz— 20kHz seems excellent performance for a 4" driver. You give up high level dynamics and efficiency for that, there's no free physics lunch here (Sensitivity: 85dB).
Here's a quote from the TAS article that sums it up pretty well:
"The SP-BS22 doesn’t go especially deep beyond the upper bass, but it remains composed at higher outputs. There’s bit of port/cabinet noise at its dynamic limits, but on Norah Jones’ “Sinkin Soon” from Not Too Late [Bluenote], acoustic bass was both tuneful and tight. For the most part, the BS22 avoids the midbass boom that makes potential subwoofer- matching such a nightmare."
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-loudspeaker/ (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-loudspeaker/)
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The Pioneer's aren't 'groundbreaking' by any means, but they sound very good for the price. Compared to the Axiom, in my room, the Pioneer has more bass, the Pioneer has a little dip at around 2000 and the Axiom has a bit more resolution from the tweeter. The Pioneer won the spot on my desk. Best over all.
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Oh Fred, you are going to be in so much trouble dissing the Axioms for the Pioneers. Aren't you aware that "James Tanner of Bryston uses the same drivers as (Axiom) in his new line of speakers". :roll:
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How can you say that these speakers produce any kind of acceptable bass as all who heard them claim. It does not look physically possible,and the driver looks like it's mass produced in China.
Since you don't believe 13 pages of AC members saying so, then the only way is to listen to them yourself.
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Amazon has the BS-22's on sale for $99.99. (free shipping) :thumb:
Best,
Ruben
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This is fun being able to recommend a speaker that most can afford and they and you can justify easily. They are so small, light and easy to place and don't seem finicky to set-up, power, equipment, etc. And you know they will enjoy them too and if for some reason they do not, well you wanted some rear surrounds or your 7.1 set-up anyways.
Ray
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Mine has broken in for two weeks now and coupled with that $80 Class D amp that I bought on Ebay this is very fun. The system images nicely, speakers disappear, and is very smooth and magical sounding. If any of your friends say that they only have $500 to spend on an amp and speakers, this is the way to send them. And the total cost is less than $200.
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Frys has the 22's for $77 a pair, and the floor standing 52's for $154 a pair, they are listed as "major name brand" in the ad copy.
http://www.frys.com/ads/page5#AdNavi
Amazon has the BS-22's on sale for $99.99. (free shipping) :thumb:
Best,
Ruben
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Frys has the 22's for $77 a pair, and the floor standing 52's for $154 a pair, they are listed as "major name brand" in the ad copy.
http://www.frys.com/ads/page5#AdNavi
Can you buy them online at that price? How do the 52's sound?
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Can you buy them online at that price?
Several weeks ago I called Frys to see if I could buy them online at the sale price. I was able to get it done after the salesperson conferred with his manager, but after I reported my experience back to the forum someone else tried and was denied. Now I see the print ad has a footnote (maybe it did before as well?) which says "Advertised prices valid only in metropolitan circulation area of newspaper in which advertisement appear".
http://www.frys.com/ads/page5#AdNavi (http://www.frys.com/ads/page5#AdNavi)
So I guess I got lucky.
Steve
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=81899)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=81900)
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Thanks to fellow A/Cer neekomax, here's an interview with Andrew Jones, respected speaker designer, who explains what went into his work behind these speakers:
http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/112
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I called the Plano Tx. store and I was denied on a pair of the 52's. Sales person said in-store sales only. But she did say Fry's is trying to get their stores built in every state, none in Missouri at the moment. :(
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How do the 52's sound?
I found the 52's to be too sibilant...fatiguing. I can listen to the 22's for hours. Gave the 52's to my son. He seems okay with them.
Mike
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I found the 52's to be too sibilant...fatiguing. I can listen to the 22's for hours. Gave the 52's to my son. He seems okay with them.
Mike
Thanks Mike for the info. I almost just bought a pair from Fry's out of Austin. I guess I will now pass. If you call Monica there at the Austin store, she is taking orders on these Pioneers at this sale price.
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I can un hook my Clements and lay the Pioneer horizontal on top of the Clements ,tweeter inside when I want a change. I think they sound seamless and very clear.For a freak in $50. Which I constantly have to remind myself if I nit pick.
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Hi, I just read the latest review from Stereophile July 2013 by Robert Reina on the Pioneer BS22-LR. After all the disscription of various music he listened to he matched them up with the Epos ELS3 and the Wharfdale Diamond 10.1. With that tiny 4 inch woofer, Reina said the Pioneer beat them both in low bass. But one thing that questions his expertise or that challenges my thought is this statement (I slightly preferred the sound with the grills on-with the SP-BS22-LR's sitting on my Celestion Si stands,the grills provided better integration of the midrange and high frequencies). With what I have learned about grills and sound (difraction) this makes no sense. How and when in time has any grill helped the integration of midrange and high frequencies.That goes against any law I have learned about speaker performance. If I'm wrong here,let me know. I will say it did get a really great review as almost all here have told about.....sincerely...Mark Korda
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This is how the Pioneers were set up at T.H.E. Show, and they were just great, and not just "for the price," either.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/8920195733_abb27a6fa4_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/8920195733/)
EOSD3251 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/8920195733/) by drjlo2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/60017347@N03/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2826/8920193799_49afda38fc_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/8920193799/)
EOSD3252 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/8920193799/) by drjlo2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/60017347@N03/), on Flickr
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I'm still trying to figure out how these can sound so good. The cabinets are thinner than the older 41's I have (from Pioneer, previous generation), the drivers appear to be inexpensive (but decent construction considering the price) and they are very lightweight. I've abused mine and although they don't like to be played very loud, they sound great. Andrew Jones is a talented guy, and I appreciate his efforts in making something this cheap sound so good.
Do they sound as good as my Series 5 Bamberg's? No, not even close, but that's not the point. I paid $69 for these, delivered. I've owned some popular vintage speakers through the years, from the likes of Polk, Advent, Klipsch, etc., and don't recall any of them sounding as enjoyable as these little Pioneers. Plus, if you blow one up, you can just buy a new pair for a little over a hundred at normal prices. Warning, these are NOT easy to blow up! I had those little woofers (is a 4" driver really a woofer?) jumping on some bass-heavy tracks and was unable to damage them.
In a hobby where people spend more than $5K on magic "pucks" (or Stillpoints) to put between their speakers and stands, without feeling ripped off, the value these little speakers deliver is insanely good. :thumb:
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In a hobby where people spend more than $5K on magic "pucks" (or Stillpoints) to put between their speakers and stands, without feeling ripped off, the value these little speakers deliver is insanely good. :thumb:
I'd like to see someone put a nice veneer on the cabinets, remove any Pioneer badges, and set them up at a show with a higher price tag. I imagine there would be buyers.
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After playing mine for the last few days with amps like the $6500 Stello AI700, $500 TBI Millenia MKII amp, the $80 Chinese amp, and the new $1500 Job 225 amp that 6moons recently raved about, I could live with these Pioneers the rest of my life. These speakers sounds good with any of the above amps, very magical sounding and totally disappears in my room.
And if you took these speakers with an all battery system to any of the big audio shows, you could easily embarrass about 75-80% of the other systems there at a fraction of the price.
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This is how the Pioneers were set up at T.H.E. Show, and they were just great, and not just "for the price," either.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/8920195733_abb27a6fa4_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/8920195733/)
EOSD3251 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/8920195733/) by drjlo2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/60017347@N03/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2826/8920193799_49afda38fc_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/8920193799/)
EOSD3252 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/8920193799/) by drjlo2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/60017347@N03/), on Flickr
I had a nice chat with the Pioneer rep in that room, and told him I was using a pair as my TV speakers. The SP-BS22-LR have really good upper bass, enough that I don't turn on the sub most of the time unless I'm watching a movie with lots of explosions and rumble. :D
The setup in the room with their $300 receiver demonstrated what a good entry level audiophile system is capable but really doesn't have the refinement and resolution of a truly high end system.
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I had a nice chat with the Pioneer rep in that room, and told him I was using a pair as my TV speakers. The SP-BS22-LR have really good upper bass, enough that I don't turn on the sub most of the time unless I'm watching a movie with lots of explosions and rumble. :D
The setup in the room with their $300 receiver demonstrated what a good entry level audiophile system is capable but really doesn't have the refinement and resolution of a truly high end system.
But if you use some highly refined electronics like the $1500 Job 225 and the $5000 AMR Dac/pre. it starts getting very close.
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But if you use some highly refined electronics like the $1500 Job 225 and the $5000 AMR Dac/pre. it starts getting very close.
Perhaps Tom, but I don't know anyone who will do that permanently. The limitations of the BS22 will show up in long term listening.
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I had to give into temptation today, and I picked up a pair from Frys. Can not beat the $77 price.
I have been playing them for about 30 mins, so far nothing that special about them. Do they need to be broken in? If so, how many hours?
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I had to give into temptation today, and I picked up a pair from Frys. Can not beat the $77 price.
I have been playing them for about 30 mins, so far nothing that special about them. Do they need to be broken in? If so, how many hours?
How large is the room that you're playing them in? If it's a large-ish room, pairing them with a sub helps. Also, I damped them (see my post on p.10 - though internally bracing them will have the same effect) which definitely improves the sound.
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I had to give into temptation today, and I picked up a pair from Frys. Can not beat the $77 price.
I have been playing them for about 30 mins, so far nothing that special about them. Do they need to be broken in? If so, how many hours?
Mine didn't open up for at least 60-80 hours. Until then, I was like you, nothing special. I kept wondering why my buddy Rex was going so ape over these.
The amp that is sounding the best at the moment is the battery operated $500 TBI Millenia MkII. TBI even sounds better than the $1500 Job and the $6500 Stello. :o
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I'm going to let them play over the weekend and see what happens. I'm in a moderately sized room, but turned off the sub to get an idea how the bass sounds. So far, nothing really offensive about them. Kind of laid back sound. They get out of the way and disappear. Not bad.
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Mine didn't open up for at least 60-80 hours. Until then, I was like you, nothing special. I kept wondering why my buddy Rex was going so ape over these.
The amp that is sounding the best at the moment is the battery operated $500 TBI Millenia MkII. TBI even sounds better than the $1500 Job and the $6500 Stello. :o
Given how great these Pioneers are and (now) how the pricey Stello is out performed, is there any need to sell your Honus Wagner card and upgrade?
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Mine didn't open up for at least 60-80 hours. Until then, I was like you, nothing special. I kept wondering why my buddy Rex was going so ape over these.
The amp that is sounding the best at the moment is the battery operated $500 TBI Millenia MkII. TBI even sounds better than the $1500 Job and the $6500 Stello. :o
All this hoopla makes more sense to me now, I bought a pair for a friend of mine for his motor home, a pure i20 and one the the T amps also on a thread here. I was not impressed at all with the speakers in my main system, but my room is huge and has a lot of hard surfaces "tile and glass". My Ariel 7B's are even bass shy for my room. Then I installed them in the motor home with the T amp and still wasn't very impressed, too much upper mid and treble and a little harsh for my liking. Anyway, maybe they just need to break in, and my guess is the T amp is a little hot in the treble area. My friend is really happy thou, not an audiophile but he likes music so I guess all is good.
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I'm not convinced these speakers sound any different after the first five or ten hours. Heck, they sounded pretty good to me right out of the box. Honestly, and this is just my opinion, if you don't like the sound after the first few hours, don't expect miracles after fifty or one hundred hours of break in.
Check your placement and make sure your amp is happy with the load, etc. I've tried these speakers with inexpensive gear like the old Outlaw receiver and a panasonic receiver and they sound very good. They sound very good with NCore amps but this is overkill for such an inexpensive speaker.
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Agree with Jackman. I believe we have to put this into proper prospective. Many on this board have speakers that cost multiple thousand dollars in their main listening room. These obviously are not going to be replacing many, if any of those. However, believe what many of us are communicating, for the paltry price of what these cost, there is not much, if any competition in their size and price range. They certainly communicate the music surprisingly well, but don't expect miracles. Paired with a sub, they are very good for many a secondary systems. IMHO, if just getting into the audio hobby on a limited budget, these would make a very good starter system paired in the right size room. :thumb:
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They are available at Best Buy for $129 a pair. My prototype designer brought up his set for me to audition yesterday. His main speakers are Sanders electrostatics and these little speakers impressed him so he gave me the chance for a listen here in my sound room with my best electronics.
These small bookshelf speakers are outstanding values. They are open, smooth, with a really neutral tonal balance and presentation. Not that last word in range or transparency, but good enough so that I can enjoy the music listening to them, and that means pretty darn good in the overall scheme of things. Amazingly listenable with no obvious flaws.
Think about trying a pair of these before spending ten times as much on something else.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
The SP-BS22-LR are reviewed in Stereophile Magazine this month (right next to a review for the $30K Andrew Jones designed TAD Eveloution One)
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I can't find these speakers in Europe, i guess they were either not sold over here or maybe under a different name??? The closest resembling speaker i found on Pioneers website was the S-31B-LR-K http://www.pioneer.eu/nl/products/42/99/161/S-31B-LR-K/page.html It still has a 4" driver but the spec sheet is slightly different. And i guess these were not designed by Andrew Jones. Does anyone compared the SP-BS22-LR with the S-31B-LR-K?
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The S-31B-LR-K was apparently also available in the U.S., listed on the Pioneer U.S. site under Previous Models (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Speakers/Home+Theater+Speakers/S-31B-LR-K). They look more similar to the previous version SP-BS21-LR with dual round grills.
The biggest differences I see are
S-31B-LR-K vs. SP-BS21-LR
- 4" fiberglass vs. 4" paper woofer cone
- 82dB vs. 84dB sensitivity
- 3KHz vs. 2kHz crossover frequency
- flush metal binding post plate vs recessed plastic terminal cup
- pin and socket attached cloth grills vs. semi-permanently attached metal grills (can be pried off)
- MSRP of $349/pair vs. $129/pair
Quite a difference in retail price. And no mention of Andrew Jones as designer.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=82427)
Steve
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The S-31B-LR-K was apparently also available in the U.S., listed on the Pioneer U.S. site under Previous Models (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Speakers/Home+Theater+Speakers/S-31B-LR-K). They look more similar to the previous version SP-BS21-LR with dual round grills.
The biggest differences I see are
S-31B-LR-K vs. SP-BS21-LR
- 4" fiberglass vs. 4" paper woofer cone
- 82dB vs. 84dB sensitivity
- 3KHz vs. 2kHz crossover frequency
- flush metal binding post plate vs recessed plastic terminal cup
- pin and socket attached cloth grills vs. semi-permanently attached metal grills (can be pried off)
- MSRP of $349/pair vs. $129/pair
Quite a difference in retail price. And no mention of Andrew Jones as designer.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=82427)
Steve
Thanks! I usually like the sound of a speaker with a low crossover frequency, at 2khz or lower as i heard with some Dynaudio models. The SP-BS-21-LR is at 2khz but it doesn't go as low (65hz) as the SP-BS-22-LR (55hz). Since the the SP-SB-21-LR is older and all the "wows" goes to the SP-BS-22-LR model i guess the "22" sounds better the the "21"?? Allthough i like the idea of having a low crossoverpoint of the "21". Integrations of driver and tweeter is that bit less critical at a low crossover point (or a very high one like 6 kHz). Becausse it is out of the range of what the ear is most sensitive to. But i guess the European models are no go as they were not optimised by Andrew Jones.
Anyone compared the SP-BS-21-LR to the SP-BS-22-LR??
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Anyone compared the SP-BS-21-LR to the SP-BS-22-LR??
In Robert Reina's full review in this month's Stereophile he does just that : "similar tonal balance", 21 "was somewhat mellower, with a bit less detail", the 22 "went a little deeper [bass]", "more refined highs, superior high level dynamics, and greater sense of decay".
Earlier in the review he mentions the differences in the drivers in the 22 vs the 21, among other things.
Still seems like an even greater bargain @ $129. If I wasn't happy w/ my Totems for office use, I'd get myself a pair.
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I saw the 21's at Walmart this week for $79.97, 22's are at Tiger Direct for $89.99 plus shipping.
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Are they on sale again this week (6/21 - 6/27) at Fry's? :o They have another add that looks
like last weeks. $77 Major Name Brand Floorstanders with Bookshelf for $77.
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These are also sold where i live and are designed by andrew Jones, they also has a 4" driver but are more expensive.
http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/42/99/161/S-CN301-LR/page.html
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I took my Pioneers to my buddy Rex's place in St. Louis this weekend. Rex has modded his Pioneers and they clearly sounded better. Rex had clipped the push-on connector on his woofer and soldered the wire direct. He also changed the binding posts to Superior Electric BP-30-2BR binding posts and inserted some dampening pads that he had bought from Madisound.
His speakers was smoother, more open, and had a better focus than mine did. Rex had an extra pair of the binding posts, so he modded mine with the re-soldering of the wire and the Superior Electric binding posts. Mine did not get the dampening mod. In that shoot-out, the speakers were dead even. So the dampening mod is not necessary and the binding post mod looks like it could cost 20 bucks at the most. This is what I found on Ebay as the best deal..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-NEW-MONSTER-CABLE-SUPERIOR-ELECTRIC-5-WAY-GOLD-BINDING-POST-BANANA-JACK-/150986043029?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2327782e95
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OzarkTom, great review! you addressed the problems, improvised and overcame like a Marine...great work you master tweeker! I like to learn from guys like you,and I hope Andrew Jones sends you a note ...Mark Korda
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I took my Pioneers to my buddy Rex's place in St. Louis this weekend. Rex has modded his Pioneers and they clearly sounded better. Rex had clipped the push-on connector on his woofer and soldered the wire direct. He also changed the binding posts to Superior Electric BP-30-2BR binding posts and inserted some dampening pads that he had bought from Madisound.
His speakers was smoother, more open, and had a better focus than mine did. Rex had an extra pair of the binding posts, so he modded mine with the re-soldering of the wire and the Superior Electric binding posts. Mine did not get the dampening mod. In that shoot-out, the speakers were dead even. So the dampening mod is not necessary and the binding post mod looks like it could cost 20 bucks at the most. This is what I found on Ebay as the best deal..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-NEW-MONSTER-CABLE-SUPERIOR-ELECTRIC-5-WAY-GOLD-BINDING-POST-BANANA-JACK-/150986043029?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2327782e95
Or you could get these for way less:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=090-475
I too, think the speaker terminals on the Pioneer speakers are very poor.
Wayner
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The Stereophile review is now up on their website:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-loudspeaker
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Or you might do the Danny Ritchie mod and not use the binding posts. But do get rid of those lugs and solder your wires direct to the midrange!woofer. I know why Pioneer uses those lugs, much easier to change out the driver under warranty repair.
Most of the websites has those Superior Electric binding posts for around 22 bucks each. Pioneer would never use that quality in a 99 buck speakers. So that Ebay ten dollar deal is a great buy for US made binding posts.
You will be amazed in the sound improvement from these two mods, it steps the Pioneers up at least a couple of more notches.
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I too, think the speaker terminals on the Pioneer speakers are very poor.
Both the stock binding posts and the Superior Electric posts are gold-plated brass. What specifically about the stock posts leads you to judge them poor quality?
Steve
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My banana jacks do not seat in the well very good, as it is not deep enough. I also think the knurled nuts are too deep in the recess to get a good tight connection when using just a plain wire.
Wayner
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Or you might do the Danny Ritchie mod and not use the binding posts. But do get rid of those lugs and solder your wires direct to the midrange!woofer. I know why Pioneer uses those lugs, much easier to change out the driver under warranty repair.
Most of the websites has those Superior Electric binding posts for around 22 bucks each. Pioneer would never use that quality in a 99 buck speakers. So that Ebay ten dollar deal is a great buy for US made binding posts.
You will be amazed in the sound improvement from these two mods, it steps the Pioneers up at least a couple of more notches.
How do you know that they are US made? I didn't see anything on the eBay auction that indicated that other then the write-up. The box that says Monster Cable does not use the correct word font, nor is the Monster Cable logo on the box. I think the auction is a fraud, because in fact, they are not made by Monster cable, and they are not made in the US, rather a cheap looking copy of the Parts Express or Pomona connectors that Frank uses, and more then likely, a Chinese copy.
I'd say, buyer be ware.
Wayner
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I have used those parts express #090-475 on a speaker project and they are ok, just don't over tighten because they break really easy. I think radio shack sells the same ones (#274-718). I have also used some parts express #091-1150's and they are absolute crap. Cheap cast Chinese brass. I put them in a lathe to cut down the ends and they broke as soon as the parting tool hit the threads. Apparently the Chinese like to use fillers in their brass to keep costs down. My favorites are Pomona 6883, when I cut the ends down you could tell that these are quality posts and are not the cheap variety of brass. It also didn't appear that they were cast. I am not sure where they are made but at around $2.50 a pair they are a deal. As Wayner stated I think these are the ones that AVA uses on their products.
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I would love to hear these Pioneers...amount of posts these guys have received is amazing. I suppose, spend a little more and get these. No mods required. Ascend, Axiom and NHT.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83173)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83174)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83175)
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How do you know that they are US made? I didn't see anything on the eBay auction that indicated that other then the write-up. The box that says Monster Cable does not use the correct word font, nor is the Monster Cable logo on the box. I think the auction is a fraud, because in fact, they are not made by Monster cable, and they are not made in the US, rather a cheap looking copy of the Parts Express or Pomona connectors that Frank uses, and more then likely, a Chinese copy.
I'd say, buyer be ware.
Wayner
Probably a good idea to be wary. It does say NOS. Does anyone know if Monster ever made speaker terminals? Even if they are legit a pair with shipping will set you back $32 which adds almost 40% to the price of the speakers!
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Probably a good idea to be wary. It does say NOS. Does anyone know if Monster ever made speaker terminals? Even if they are legit a pair with shipping will set you back $32 which adds almost 40% to the price of the speakers!
As long as the user thinks they're special magic binding posts, that's all that matters. This binding post swap is just placebo anyway.
Adding damping material to the cabinet, or bracing, etc., may result in changes, for better or worse. So might changing the topology of the crossover (as opposed to swapping out the parts for parts with more expensive branding but the same values). The modder will invariably think said mods are a big improvement (Beranek's Law and all that) of course, regardless of actual efficacy.
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I'm using spades with my pair, and they seem to fit snugly.
I can not see the point in doing any modifications on a $77 pair of speakers. Not worth the time and effort. Just sit back and enjoy. An amazing value and lots of fun.
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I'm using spades with my pair, and they seem to fit snugly.
I'm using Z-type ("BFA") banana plugs, so I have a tight fit with most binding posts including these, and don't have to tighten the recessed knurled nuts to secure anything.
I can not see the point in doing any modifications on a $77 pair of speakers. Not worth the time and effort.
You're probably right, but I think I might be able to squeeze a 2% - 3% performance gain replacing the binding posts with Furutech FT-808 Rhodium (http://www.thecableco.com/Product/FT-808--Binding-Post--Set-of-2-) and the crossover capacitors with Duelund CAST/PIO-Ag (http://www.partsconnexion.com/74521.html). ;)
However on a more serious note, I was considering soldering the driver wires direct and possibly damping the stamped steel woofer baskets, investing an hour + of labor and next to nothing in materials.
Steve
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As long as the user thinks they're special magic binding posts, that's all that matters. This binding post swap is just placebo anyway.
Adding damping material to the cabinet, or bracing, etc., may result in changes, for better or worse. So might changing the topology of the crossover (as opposed to swapping out the parts for parts with more expensive branding but the same values). The modder will invariably think said mods are a big improvement (Beranek's Law and all that) of course, regardless of actual efficacy.
Come on, DS!
You know that every person in the history of audio who has ever modded a piece of gear has noticed tremendous improvements...especially when the mods cost a lot of money. This binding post mod only costs a few bucks so I'm guessing the impact is modest.
Put some fancy silver or gold Teflon caps or desire these speakers with super expensive cables and I'm sure the proverbial "veil" will be lifted. People will start to hear details in recordings, wives who know nothing about the fine science of modding or audio will suddenly comment on how the singer sounds like she is "in the room".
My favorite thread on this topic is the Stillpoints thread in the Von Schweikert circle. There is a guy, who I will not name, who hears massive improvements every time he changes anything or implements any tweak. He spent over $5k on magic hockey pucks to put between his monitors and subs and his system was totally "transformed". He did this without even thinking to try less expensive options ($50 sorbothane balls) that seem to accomplish the same task - dampening vibration. Of course sorbothane balls don't carry the same bling factor. They are also cheaper so how can they be better?
For the record, I've replaced te cables, cabinets, crossovers and drivers in my little Pioneer speakers (ive only kept the original connectors, badges and grills) and they sound MUCH better. I would hazard to say they sound like totally different speakers. When my $5k Stillpoints get here, I fully expect these little beauties to sing like never before (at least that's what the salesman said). You can't put a price on that!
Cheers
Jack
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How do you know that they are US made? I didn't see anything on the eBay auction that indicated that other then the write-up. The box that says Monster Cable does not use the correct word font, nor is the Monster Cable logo on the box. I think the auction is a fraud, because in fact, they are not made by Monster cable, and they are not made in the US, rather a cheap looking copy of the Parts Express or Pomona connectors that Frank uses, and more then likely, a Chinese copy.
I'd say, buyer be ware.
Wayner
If those are made by Superior Electric, as advertised in the Ebay listing, then they are USA made.
The change in sound that I heard easily warrants the money spent. One of my quibbles was that the speakers did not focus well, but that has totally changed with the two mods. And the increase in openness is quite nice also. This is not subtle.
But I totally understand on why spend more money on a cheap pair of speakers that sounds pretty good and most here will only use these as back-ups or in a second bedroom or computer system. I was just reporting on what I heard. It could be most of the improvement came in hard wiring the driver. Rex had modded both items before I listened to them.
On Rex's speakers, he had used these insulation sheets inside his speakers.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/acoustic-damping/dampers-deflex-standard-panel/
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To be honest, if I had not heard the difference, I would have never had done these mods. I have never been too much of a tweekster, but Rex, my long time audio buddy, is.
It just makes a fun cheap and cheerful speaker more fun.
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Gentlemen, please. A big part of the C&C circle is tweaking inexpensive items with inexpensive tweaks, doesn’t anyone remember the Insignia speaker thread where you had to buy a $5 can of water putty to make a drastic difference in the sound.
I wish the gentlemen who keep espousing that tweaks and ultra expensive go hand in hand would simple just stop. There is absolutely no correlation in the real world, except in some advertising copy. I have cable elevators, they cost about 25 cents and are made from 2x4s. I have maple footers under my components, they cost about 50 cents because I cut them from a length of maple from Lowes. I did spend $15 for a Caig kit from Radio Shack because clean contacts do make a difference.
Except for labor and solder, and perhaps some binding posts that might make better contact for what, $20 I think, no one is suggesting busting into banks (except for Steve's joke) to fund the mods on the Pioneer speaker. If you don’t agree, fine, but don’t equate the mods suggested with spending large sums of money, it’s disingenuous and duplicitous.
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Hey Guys,
I was only joking but I still find it surprising and a bit baffling that a set of new terminals and soldering the wires to the drivers could result in this kind of improvement. I've got some decent copper connectors around here and soldering the cables to the drivers is easy enough.
For the record, I will not be using stillpoints.
Cheers
Jack
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Yeah, internal wiring and binding posts can make a really big difference. Best bang for your buck is Pomona gold plated copper binding posts at under $9 each. I like UPOCC copper for wiring.
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delete
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I don't have these, but a friend is interested in using these with wall mounts. What would be the best way to secure them to the mounts?
These are the mounts. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X9O8SI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1YX7EB80E4EIU)
Is there threading on the speakers for screws or should he use blu tack or a velcro strap?
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I don't have these, but a friend is interested in using these with wall mounts. What would be the best way to secure them to the mounts?
These are the mounts. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X9O8SI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1YX7EB80E4EIU)
Is there threading on the speakers for screws or should he use blu tack or a velcro strap?
I was wondering the same thing myself. I bought these speakers for my brother and want to mount them on the wall so his newborn won't be able to get to them.
There isn't any threading on the speakers and the cabinets are curved so I think the best way would be to use some kind of strap to wrap around the speaker and mount.
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The mounts look like they may have some slots in the bottom plate. If so, use that pair of holes or if not, drill a pair of clearance holes in the plate and drill a pair of pilot holes in the bottom of the speakers one drill size smaller than the root diameter (minus threads) of the screw.
Much cleaner looking than straps, IMO.
Steve
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In a couple of the pictures they show what looks like the BS22 and they are holding them sideways even with the curved sides. I don't see why you couldn't velcro or double back tape them from the bottom and use the clamps as well. Also, if the bottom plate has holes, what Steve said would work fine too.
Greg
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The mounts look like they may have some slots in the bottom plate. If so, use that pair of holes or if not, drill a pair of clearance holes in the plate and drill a pair of pilot holes in the bottom of the speakers one drill size smaller than the root diameter (minus threads) of the screw.
Much cleaner looking than straps, IMO.
Steve
Wouldn't that void some warranties?
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Wouldn't that void some warranties?
Yep, but if you are going to blow a warrantee, why not do it on a $99 speaker?
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In a couple of the pictures they show what looks like the BS22 and they are holding them sideways even with the curved sides. I don't see why you couldn't velcro or double back tape them from the bottom and use the clamps as well. Also, if the bottom plate has holes, what Steve said would work fine too.
Greg
Thanks for pointing out the pictures. Didn't see them :duh: Seems like he'll be just fine without having to drill.
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Thanks for pointing out the pictures. Didn't see them :duh: Seems like he'll be just fine without having to drill.
3/4" lag bolts, I tell ya!
I recognized B&W CM2 and Quad 11L, but didn't see the set of customer images including the BS-22 at first either.
I agree, maybe some black rubber pads for the side clamps (so you don't see blue putty splooging out) and either velcro or Blu-Tack for the bottom would be fine.
Steve
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Trying to keep it cheap and cheerful :icon_lol: If you're looking for Superior BP-30 gold plated binding posts, and you don't mind non-standard colors, blue, yellow and green, they're available as singles for $1 each
http://www.apexjr.com/Jacks.htm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83372)
They've also got Chinese binding posts at low cost. My preference, subjective & non DBT, is to go with the Superiors, as they are superior and don't break when torqued.... FWIW
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Frys has the 52's at $77 each and the 22's at $77 a pair in the weekly sale advertisment
http://www.frys.com/ads/page4#AdNavi
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Frys has the 52's at $77 each and the 22's at $77 a pair in the weekly sale advertisment
http://www.frys.com/ads/page4#AdNavi
If no Frys stores are close buy, you might call Monica at the San Atonio store to get this deal. She said they will ship at this price.
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Ozark Tom
I don't see the phone number for San Antonio store. I don't see a store listed in
San Antonio under the store locator tool on the internet. Do you have a phone
number for that store or am I looking in the wrong direction.
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Ozark Tom
I don't see the phone number for San Antonio store. I don't see a store listed in
San Antonio under the store locator tool on the internet. Do you have a phone
number for that store or am I looking in the wrong direction.
Oops. I should have said the Austin store. Right state, wrong city. :duh:
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Gentlemen, please. A big part of the C&C circle is tweaking inexpensive items with inexpensive tweaks, doesn’t anyone remember the Insignia speaker thread where you had to buy a $5 can of water putty to make a drastic difference in the sound.
IIRC the Insignia was kerfed particleboard, maybe MDF, and the "water putty" tweak was simply filling in the kerfs.
Of course, there's a gigantic, insurmountable difference between effectively thickening the walls of very cheaply-made cabinet and futzing with mere wires (and binding posts). It's intellectually dishonest to equate the two in any way, shape, or form.
Expensive or inexpensive, who cares? People will buy what they like that they can (hopefully!) afford. The more relevant categories here are "reality" and "nonsense."
Here, mods to cabinet damping, crossover topology, etc. could do something. Might be worse, might be better. But it will be something. If people wish to "tweak," if nothing else it's a more efficient use of one's time to start with such things that might cause actual changes.
That said, if one wants to upgrade the terminals to something markedly superior - not in sound, which is identical to any competent binding post, but in every other aspect - then skip the hopeless kludge that is the monopolar binding post and use the modern Speakon connector from Neutrik instead. The Speakon has real advantages over the standard consumer audio kludge, such as being positive-locking, quick disconnect, entirely insulated, and multipolar. And despite being made in the EU, they're also cheap, because they're marketed as effective and practical commodity parts rather than as fetish objects for the scientifically illiterate.
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You disagreed? I'm stunned.
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You disagreed? I'm stunned.
He's only disagreeing with the intellectually dishonest and scientifically illiterate. ;)
Steve
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Macrame to the rescue :P
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85382)
I was wondering the same thing myself. I bought these speakers for my brother and want to mount them on the wall so his newborn won't be able to get to them.
There isn't any threading on the speakers and the cabinets are curved so I think the best way would be to use some kind of strap to wrap around the speaker and mount.
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Macrame to the rescue :P
aka plant hangers.....
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Yes, plant hangers is how I was able to get my speakers off the table and out of my grandsons reach. :)
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Wanted to let Audiocircle members know that I just got todays BestBuy flyer. And all Pioneer speakers are 30% off starting tomorrow(Sunday Aug.18-24).
Ryan
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He's only disagreeing with the intellectually dishonest and scientifically illiterate. ***
Correct. Both of those things fully apply to any comparison between making a cheap kerf-curved enclosure more rigid by filling in the kerfs, and futzing with mere wires (or binding posts).
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I have to pick up a pair. Need to compare them to my $12.00 speaker challenge I have with a forum member . Hi Jay, doing all right I hope.
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Yes, plant hangers is how I was able to get my speakers off the table and out of my grandsons reach. :)
Clever and oh so stylish!
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Wanted to let Audiocircle members know that I just got todays BestBuy flyer. And all Pioneer speakers are 30% off starting tomorrow(Sunday Aug.18-24).
Ryan
Available online for $90.99 and free shipping.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Pioneer+-+4%26%2334%3B+Bookshelf+Speakers+(Pair)/5086955.p?id=1218610014045&skuId=5086955#tab=overview
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Has anyone heard the matching sub to these speakers? It is also an Andrew Jones design. Price is also right! $202 for the complete sub/sat system at Best Buy!
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Pioneer+-+Subwoofer/5086873.p?id=1218610014537&skuId=5086873
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Speakers/Subwoofers/SW-8MK2
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Clever and oh so stylish!
Thank you,
Also you asked about the matching sub, I haven't heard it myself but from what I've heard/read in other HT forums it's recommended to skip and put the $$ towards a better sub.
I used a Bic F12 for over a year with my 1st gen. Pio. speakers which while a bit on the boomy side was ok for HT use. In May I acquired a SVS SB13-Ultra sub and wow, my Pio speakers sound a 100x better than before with the Bic.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85471)
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Thank you,
Also you asked about the matching sub, I haven't heard it myself but from what I've heard/read in other HT forums it's recommended to skip and put the $$ towards a better sub.
I used a Bic F12 for over a year with my 1st gen. Pio. speakers which while a bit on the boomy side was ok for HT use. In May I acquired a SVS SB13-Ultra sub and wow, my Pio speakers sound a 100x better than before with the Bic.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85471)
I can also recommend the HSU STF series. I have the STF-2 and use it when I really want to crank the music and feel the 'live' (or as close as I can get to it in my digs without the police showing up) vibe, but with the 22s I don't really need the sub most of the time.
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with the 22s I don't really need the sub most of the time.
:wtf:
I couldn't /wouldn't want to go w/o a sub after having the SVS in the mix and those bs22"s are only rated down to 55 Hz :scratch:
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:wtf:
I couldn't /wouldn't want to go w/o a sub after having the SVS in the mix and those bs22"s are only rated down to 55 Hz :scratch:
I agree about the lack of the last octave or so, but my focus is mainly music. You don't get the full effect of the fundamental of the low E of a double bass and the feel of someone hitting you in the chest from tympani and kick drum, but I'm 99.9% of the way there with no sub.
If your focus is home theater and you want those ELF effects and can count on not getting evicted from your domicile, then I agree - it's lacking.
I do like my STF-2, though!
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Yes, plant hangers is how I was able to get my speakers off the table and out of my grandsons reach. :)
Do hanging speakers in the air negatively impact sound quality? Or is good placement from the wall (for bass port) enough for this level (price) of speaker?
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WEll, I'd assume bass response will not be as tight and clean as it would be if the speakers were coupled / anchored to a surface. Probably a good trade off thogh, better to keep those away from inquisitive little fingers :)
-jay
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Yes, plant hangers is how I was able to get my speakers off the table and out of my grandsons reach. :)
I plan to do the macrame/plant hanger thing myself in a few weeks. I'd done something similar years ago (30-40?) with what would today be called "satellite" speakers and an A/R turntable. That got all three (speakers, TT) off the floor and within my easy reach. The only concern I had at the time was what LF that might transmit to the TT, but I could never hear any. One thing I'll be doing is getting a subjective 'feel' for what it does to the bass response. After I do that and listen to it for a while I intend to replace the BS22s with my HSU HB-1s to again do a subjective comparison. I haven't hooked the HSUs back up since I got the Pioneers, and I still regard the HSUs as pretty good speakers.
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Do hanging speakers in the air negatively impact sound quality? Or is good placement from the wall (for bass port) enough for this level (price) of speaker?
For louder listening levels, I find that they sound better at least 2' away from the wall. (It's much less critical if you internally dampen/brace the speakers.)
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Do hanging speakers in the air negatively impact sound quality? Or is good placement from the wall (for bass port) enough for this level (price) of speaker?
IMO they sound better now up in the air than they did before when they were sitting on our marble end tables.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85561)(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85562)
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IMO they sound better now up in the air than they did before when they were sitting on our marble end tables.
Yes they would, quite obviously. The nearfield reflections from the table tops must have been horrendous.
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I would like to buy the 22's but I'm a little worried about my receiver. It's a Kenwood VR-507 (100 watts per channel 5.1) and is listed as only supporting 8 ohm speakers. Given that the Pioneer's are 6 ohm I've read up a lot online about running them from a 8 ohm receiver and I've read of success and failures. Can anyone here clear this up for me? I'm on a very limited budget and can't really afford to buy a new receiver to power them at the moment. Thanks!
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I'm powering my SP-BS22-LR with a Denon AVR-1603. The Denon manual lists power ratings at both 8 ohms and 6 ohms, however the rear panel says "8 - 16 ohms".
They were designed as an inexpensive speaker to be used with most anything, they're just a little low on sensitivity. A friend drives them with an Insignia NS-R2001 receiver (about as low on the receiver totem pole as you can go) and it doesn't overheat.
Neither of us are blasting them, but I think you'll be fine.
Steve
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I would like to buy the 22's but I'm a little worried about my receiver. It's a Kenwood VR-507 (100 watts per channel 5.1) and is listed as only supporting 8 ohm speakers. Given that the Pioneer's are 6 ohm I've read up a lot online about running them from a 8 ohm receiver and I've read of success and failures. Can anyone here clear this up for me? I'm on a very limited budget and can't really afford to buy a new receiver to power them at the moment. Thanks!
The specs for the pioneers are good and really don't go below 6 ohm where other speaker may be rated at 8 ohm but often dip well below 6 ohm when driven hard. You should be fine :)
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Well, I joined the BS22 club today...went to Best Buy and walked out with a box of speakers and change from my hundred...
I sold my Martin Logan Aerius-i's back at the beginning of July because a friend heard them and had to have them...so, I made up a package along with a new Jolida 501RC amp, Gram Slee phono preamp, my Denon DP45F w/ADC XLM cart, a Rotel RCD-02CD player and assorted VanDenHul, Cardas, etc., cables....I cleared the exact same that I paid for the Aerius-i bi-wires in '97, so I felt good about the sale...when it was all hooked up at her house, in her music room where the sweet spot was sitting at the piano bench, and I started playing it for her she started crying....I though OhOh, she's spent this money and she's unhappy...but, no, it was quite the opposite, she loved it!
I absolutely love to set up systems for folks and have that kind of reaction.
I had almost that strong of a reaction today when I finally set up the little Pioneers! I no longer missed the ML's, plus the bass on these little things put to shame that which my Boston Acoustics A100MkII's with their 10" woofer are capable of!
I have yet to hook any subs up to the system and as I sit at the dining room table and they are playing at a low level, they don't have the same presence here as the electrostats, or my Maggie MG-IIa's, or possibly the Bostons, but what is there is clean, clear, articulate and very worthwhile. They do need a bass augmentation, especially at low levels, to bring about a more enjoyable sound here in the adjoining room...but, as I sit here about 15 or 16 feet away from the left speaker and look at it's diminutive stature, I am just in awe, and this is after going out this evening and hearing live music and a demonstration of the B&W Nautilus system...gimme YG's any day!
The Pioneers are even good enough to clearly let me know the differences between the Cardas Cross speaker cables and the Stereovox Studio HD's....
Up stream: Sure 50WPC TDA 7492 amp w/19V power supply, http://tinyurl.com/myfehpa (http://tinyurl.com/myfehpa), Audible Illusions Modulus 3A preamp, Micromega MyDac, Compaq laptop used as music server with Media Monkey and USB out to the MyDac....
I can't wait to let them run in a little more and listen to vinyl tomorrow with the LP-12 and BenzH20....or this winter when the outside temps cool and I can run tube amps again....
Thanks to all the Guinea Pigs that bought these speakers and found out that they didn't suck.
.
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Rick,
I would definitely recommend listening to them with a sub. Makes an overall difference.
They're also much better internally braced- or as I did, lined them with non-drying clay. (Page 10 of this thread. Only one other person has done this that I know of and he noticed and liked the difference.)
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Rick
Loved yor story about how happy buying your old system made your friend, great stuff :thumb:
Love hearing little stories like that
Glad you're enjoying the new Pioneer's and like you say, after you get some hours on them I'm sure they'll sound even better
-jay
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Thanks for easing my worries a bit about running these via a 8ohm rated early 2000's receiver. I'm really nervous still just because I don't want to damage anything but I think I'm going to bite the bullet and give it a shot. Hopefully all goes well :)
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Rick,
I would definitely recommend listening to them with a sub. Makes an overall difference.
They're also much better internally braced- or as I did, lined them with non-drying clay. (Page 10 of this thread. Only one other person has done this that I know of and he noticed and liked the difference.)
Don't worry, there will be mods!
Cardas internal wiring along with replacing those crappy binding posts with some also from Cardas (I get the Cardas supplies at dealer cost so why not?) will be the first steps...the original posts will not let the spades on my Cardas Cross speaker cables seat properly and do not let the banana plugs of the Stereovox really penetrate enough to give what I feel is a good coupling between the plugs and the posts....and, I hate knurled post nuts, like the hex heads much better.
I'll have to do those first before thinking about doing any cabinet mods...I worry more about changing the tuning of the cabs by changing the interior volume than having the cabinets sing a little....
One of the things I have done for cabinet damping in the past is to get the hard vinyl flooring tiles at Home Depot or Lowes (usually less than a dollar for 12" x 12" squares) and affix these to the interior cabinet walls....I use a heat gun to soften the vinyl for curved surfaces and use rubber cement only on one of the mating surfaces (i.e. the tile or the cabinet wall) to test the effectiveness of the damping...if all is well and sounds better the tiles are fairly easily removed, the rubber glue also cleans off easily, and then reattached permanently with contact cement.
Right now my BS22's are mounted on 24" Atacama stands filled with sand...the "interface" between the speakers and the stands is double stick masking tape, it really sticks well and helps prevent the little buggers from getting knocked out of position, it will also release when I want it to without damage to the finish of the speakers, and with a large coverage of the bottom of the speaker, damps the bottom of the speaker by coupling it tightly to the steel upper panel of the stand...I used to use a blue tack type of stuff but I feel like the "harder" contact of the thin double sided tape couples the stand and the speaker more effectively....the stands are spiked through the carpet...
Today I plan on hooking up the DIY Shiva sub along with one Dahlquist DQ-1W, both in the front corners of the room which is the only place that I can put them, and see what subs add to the equation...
TTFN
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Rick
Loved yor story about how happy buying your old system made your friend, great stuff :thumb:
Love hearing little stories like that
Glad you're enjoying the new Pioneer's and like you say, after you get some hours on them I'm sure they'll sound even better
-jay
Thanks, Jay, yeah, I have been quite surprised by Darlene's reaction to the gear and how much she loves vinyl....
The CD player I put in the deal is no slouch, but the Graham Slee SE and Denon DP45/ADC XLM combo just really do sound great and prove just how good even a modest vinyl setup can sound!
Here's a view from the listener's seat:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85626)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85627)
She wanted a system that she could listen to a piece of music and then try and play it back on her piano....if you are standing just outside the room and listening it is hard at times to tell which is the piano and which is the vinyl....
She told me the other day that she has been buying more sheet music and more LP's and having a ball....
That's what it's all about, right?
.
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I'm powering my SP-BS22-LR with a Denon AVR-1603. The Denon manual lists power ratings at both 8 ohms and 6 ohms, however the rear panel says "8 - 16 ohms".
They were designed as an inexpensive speaker to be used with most anything, they're just a little low on sensitivity. A friend drives them with an Insignia NS-R2001 receiver (about as low on the receiver totem pole as you can go) and it doesn't overheat.
Neither of us are blasting them, but I think you'll be fine.
Steve
Looks like spec wise my receiver is pretty similar to that one other than mine says that it's "100 watts" and yours is "80 watts" per channel. Although, I would take a Denon over a Kenwood any day hopefully I have similar success with mine as well. Thanks for the helpful encouragement. I just placed my order :D
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OK, subs in place powered by a venerable Dynaco St-150 and just the electronic sub crossover portion in an Audio Control Phase Coupled Activator...subs crossed over only, BS22's run full range.
Infected Mushroom's Avratz....
Geeze, where's the adult diapers when you need them!
I'm not going to say this setup sounds like the YG Acoustics Kipods with all Jeff Rowland electronics at work....nope, that stuff is on a different planet and I couldn't afford it even if I sold my house and everything in it plus my BMW....
But, this is mine, it's all paid for, it absolutely pushes all the buttons I need pushed in my 14' x 12' den, and I know I am just going to enjoy this setup more and more as the days go by...
I really must hand it to Andrew Jones for his exemplary work on these affordable jewels and such audio stalwarts as Frank Van Alstine for giving this old audio geek something new to look forward to playing with!
And, I still have yet to spin vinyl on the Linn!
Edit PS: clean peaks around 107dB on my peak reading sound level meter...it does rock!
.
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I really must hand it to Alan Jones for his exemplary work on these affordable jewels .....
« Last Edit: Today at 02:09:09 pm by RickB »
One more edit - Andrew Jones ;)
Steve
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One more edit - Andrew Jones ;)
Steve
OK, fixed it....you know us old pharts, memory can be, umm, I forgot....but took care of my mistake.
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..snip..
I really must hand it to Andrew Jones for his exemplary work on these affordable jewels and such audio stalwarts as Frank Van Alstine for giving this old audio geek something new to look forward to playing with!
..snip..
Another geezer back in the audiophile game here. Running M2tech hiface into all AVA electronics and the BS22s, with a HSU STF-2 sub that I rarely use.
Quite a revelation.
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Breaking in my BS22's right now. So far zero issues with my receiver and it doesn't even seem to be running any warmer than usual. :)
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okay, fine. I am getting a pair too. :D
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Sheesh, this is getting ridiculous. My arm hurts already. Quit twisting it.
I bought some already. Thanks for the heads up. Keep those Cheap and
Cheerful recommendations coming. I really like the 5 gallon sub idea too.
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Well, went to Best Buy yesterday and bought the left and right for $90 and the center spk for $70; as I had $80 reward I paid $87 with taxes. :D
Therefore, I am removing the 10-yr old old Boston Acoustic towers that I had in the middle of my living room, and the Pioneers are nicely on top of my console, with a much better and cleaner arrangement. BTW, on the left side (second pic below) it is the SVS 12 compact sub that I got a week ago. :thumb:
Sound wise, my old towers were a bit better and more detailed as a stereo set up. However, I am happy with this system overall, which is primarily for home theater. And, difficult to beat 3 speakers with reasonable good quality for $87 bucks.
so, previously:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85853)
and now:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85854)
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BTW, I am tired of being a "Jr Member". How many posts do I have to have to became a "Full member"? :scratch:
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BTW, I am tired of being a "Jr Member". How many posts do I have to have to became a "Full member"? :scratch:
3-4000 or so
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crap... :o
allright. fine.
whatever.
... just kidding. who cares. I am listening to Across the Universe and it sounds great. :thumb:
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3-4000 or so
:lol:
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Sound wise, my old towers were a bit better and more detailed as a stereo set up.
Sounds like you enjoy your old speakers. Why not return them and buy yourself a nice steak? Food for thought :thumb:
Sorry, that was horrible :duh:
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^^^ well, I am actually considering just that.
As I played Led Zeppelin Celebration Day BlueRay last night, I was missing the old towers more...
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^^^ well, I am actually considering just that.
As I played Led Zeppelin Celebration Day BlueRay last night, I was missing the old towers more...
While the little Pioneers are great for the money, I think they are bested by well designed speakers in the $300-500 range. So I'm not surprised your towers sound better for music. Those who say these little speakers are "giant killers" are just plain nutty. But I'm not sure they can be beat for under $300 or so.
As for your Jr. status, just post a bunch of fluffy posts, say 20 - 30 per day and you'll get to full member status in no time! Worked for me! The easiest posts are those with Thumbs up Smileys, "+1" and "What he said". Post a bunch of those a day, whether you actually agree with the quoted post or not, and we'll see you in the Full Member Club real soon!
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While the little Pioneers are great for the money, I think they are bested by well designed speakers in the $300-500 range. So I'm not surprised your towers sound better for music. Those who say these little speakers are "giant killers" are just plain nutty. But I'm not sure they can be beat for under $300 or so.
As for your Jr. status, just post a bunch of fluffy posts, say 20 - 30 per day and you'll get to full member status in no time! Worked for me! The easiest posts are those with Thumbs up Smileys, "+1" and "What he said". Post a bunch of those a day, whether you actually agree with the quoted post or not, and we'll see you in the Full Member Club real soon!
+1 :lol:
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+1 :lol:
:thumb:
Top AC Poster here I come!
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:thumb:
Top AC Poster here I come!
+1 :thumb:
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:D
Movin on UP :thumb:
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Apparently these sound great and cost around $75 each in parts (but require a plate amp).
An amusing read, at least:
http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Subwoofer.html
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As for your Jr. status, just post a bunch of fluffy posts, say 20 - 30 per day and you'll get to full member status in no time! Worked for me! The easiest posts are those with Thumbs up Smileys, "+1" and "What he said". Post a bunch of those a day, whether you actually agree with the quoted post or not, and we'll see you in the Full Member Club real soon!
That was downright funny!!! :lol:
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Sound wise, my old towers were a bit better and more detailed as a stereo set up. However, I am happy with this system overall, which is primarily for home theater. And, difficult to beat 3 speakers with reasonable good quality for $87 bucks.
If you decide to keep them, internally brace or dampen them. They'll sound much better.
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Amazon is currently listing the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers for $80 shipped (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-Designed-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B008NCD2LG/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1359680251&sr=1-1&keywords=pioneer+sp-bs22-lr).
Steve
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As for your Jr. status, just post a bunch of fluffy posts, say 20 - 30 per day and you'll get to full member status in no time! Worked for me! The easiest posts are those with Thumbs up Smileys, "+1" and "What he said". Post a bunch of those a day, whether you actually agree with the quoted post or not, and we'll see you in the Full Member Club real soon!
Yes, great idea. :thumb:
I believe the threshold for full member is 300 posts, so I should be there soon :D
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While the little Pioneers are great for the money, I think they are bested by well designed speakers in the $300-500 range. So I'm not surprised your towers sound better for music. Those who say these little speakers are "giant killers" are just plain nutty. But I'm not sure they can be beat for under $300 or so.
(...)
As I listened more last night, I got more disappointed, and I will return these speakers.
I go to my home office and work or surf the net a bit at night while listening to great imaging and detail with my EE M88 integrated and GR N3s. Then, I go to the living room and I cannot deal with the decrease in sound quality, with the pioneers, really. I would rather get a couple of N1X from GR Research, which was my original plan anyway.
But, it was worthwhile experiment.
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Amazon is currently listing the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers for $80 shipped (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-Designed-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B008NCD2LG/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1359680251&sr=1-1&keywords=pioneer+sp-bs22-lr).
Steve
Last Sat I picked up a pair for $99. with tax at Best Buy Oh well ,we shall see. Have not had time to open them yet. they are not for me but my sister's kid for Xmas...if I like them enough.
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Last Sat I picked up a pair for $99. with tax at Best Buy Oh well ,we shall see. Have not had time to open them yet. they are not for me but my sister's kid for Xmas...if I like them enough.
Or should that be "unless I like them too much"?
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Lol If I like them THAT much, off to Amazon I go. I hope they work well in a dorm room. Really want to diy a pair for her when she finishes school.
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.
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I seem to recall that Andrew Jones mentioned a new, improved version of these speakers coming out this Fall during an interview earlier this Spring (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylloZe-3BHc). I believe the list price was going to remain unchanged. It was a brief comment and I don't remember details, so I'd recommend listening to the interview yourself for confirmation. (And product release schedules always seem to shift quite a bit anyway.)
Sorry, the interview is an hour long, and I don't remember the time stamp of that comment as I had it on in the background while working on other tasks.
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The comment was made at 46:00.
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Thanks, Russell.
On a second review, nevermind - false alarm. The 22 series is the one he was referring to, as the 21 series was current at the time of the interview.
Sorry for the confusion.
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79.99
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NCD2LG/ref=ox_ya_os_product
Alex
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79.99
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NCD2LG/ref=ox_ya_os_product
Alex
"Usually ships within 1 to 2 months" :lol:
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"Usually ships within 1 to 2 months" :lol:
Better than 3 to 4 months.
I have a friend that ordered them during a similar sale ~ 4 months ago and it also said "1 to 2 months", but he did receive them within one week.
Steve
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Just got an update will ship out next week....they got supply!!
now go get'em!!
:thumb:
Alex
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I'm trying to help a student get set up with a pair of these for her dorm room. Could anyone provide recommendations for an integrated amp or receiver to go with them? I'm talking fairly inexpensive either new (ebay chip amps), used (DIY chip amps or SS amps), or used vintage (what specs for a receiver?). Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
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http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTX8050/Onkyo-TX-8050-2-Channel-Network-Stereo-Receiver/1.html
or
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKHTRC330/Onkyo-HT-RC330-5.1-CHANNEL-HOME-THEATER-RECEIVER/1.html
you only have to use 2 of the speaker connections.
This site has lots of low cost refurbished recievers...I have purchased from them many time...
All the best
Alex
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Hey Andre.....
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Thanks Alex. That particular Onkyo might be more expensive than the budget allows, but looks nice and I love the internet connectivity - I bet she would love it too.
Any other suggestions from folks?
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I'm trying to help a student get set up with a pair of these for her dorm room. Could anyone provide recommendations for an integrated amp or receiver to go with them? I'm talking fairly inexpensive either new (ebay chip amps), used (DIY chip amps or SS amps), or used vintage (what specs for a receiver?). Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
There are some good Pioneer receivers listed in this thread from a few years ago. I bought one of these for $100 and it sounds fine driving a pair of SP-BS41s.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68889.20
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There are some good Pioneer receivers listed in this thread from a few years ago. I bought one of these for $100 and it sounds fine driving a pair of SP-BS41s.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68889.20
I have the same receiver still doing duty in the HT rig. Worked splendid as an integrated in the stereo rig, as a pre-amp in same, and pretty good as a power amp in same. Fussiness with load is it's downfall. If you have highish efficiency speakers and either strictly 8 ohm or a combination of 5-6 ohm minimum with benign phase angles it can sound delicious. If you stray from that it can sound hard and brittle. The specs I see on the Pioneers look iffy but doable.
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FYI...
The speakers I ordered last Friday arrived today at the house.....
These had a 1-2 month delivery timeframe last week.
all for $79.99...no shipping and no tax!
Alex
Sorry for the pix quality.....phone 2 mp old camera and crap lighting...
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Well here are mine...playing on top of my SalkSongTowers....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86419)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86420)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86421)
They are really pretty good for the cost and size for sure....abit boomy on the bass end in my room.
They work wonderfully with guitar, voices and stuff that doesn't have a lot of bass.
But as we all know for what they are there really pretty neat..
Alex
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wow!!
I played Aaron Copeland's fanfare and was REALLY surprised.....WOW....amazing....
LOL
Alex
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They are really pretty good for the cost and size for sure....abit boomy on the bass end in my room.
They work wonderfully with guitar, voices and stuff that doesn't have a lot of bass.
Alex
That boominess is cabinet resonance. It mostly goes away if you dampen/brace the walls. I wish more people would do it. I and one other person I know has done it. They sound much better from top to bottom - frequency-wise.
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Thats an interesting thought...
I did place my ear right on the speaker sides to see if anything was resonating in the enclosure etc and it was not.
Depending on the music being played, the bass violin when plucked seems to be the worse case for me with these things setting on top of the speakers i have in the room.
With other recordings the bass is not too boomy but a bit loose etc...not really well defined as I am used to.
I will try these in another room with totally different dimesions...
That said they are still quite amazing speakers.
Alex
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I haven't heard the BS22s, only my BS41s which I also found a little boomy. It seems that this is not uncommon with un-broken-in speakers, for which the intended cabinet bass tuning does not fall into place until the fs of the bass driver has dropped as it does during the break in process. I tamed the boom on mine with a wad of the smallest straight drinking straws I could find cut in half and stuffed tight into the port. This provides a rudimentary type of "resistive port" and tames the resonance. After enough time has elapsed that the bass/mid driver should be broken in, I'll remove the straws and see if the boom's still there.
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I've tried the 22's and the 41's and like them both. The 22's are more refined but the 41's have better bass and are more laid back. For the money they are both great values.
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Hey Andre.....
Hi Bob :thumb:
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Just tryin' to help get your post count higher. :wink:
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Of course. Thanks. With this post I am at 293. Seven to go so I can drop the Jr.... :thumb: :D
Back on topic. I have indeed returned the pioneers, and put my "old" (bought them in 2003... time flies) towers back in place on my living room. I am now deciding if I stick to GR research X1 for my HT LR, or should I try Zu Omen. Either option would be around $1k.
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OFF TOPIC
Andre. Please check out >> THIS THREAD << (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119573.0).
We're talking about this very issue, ans seeing you're so close, it looks like you could use a good excuse to "post pad" a few more times. :wink:
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Bob! Shame on you. First you blatantly goad an innocent member into boosting his post count, then an off topic. What has gotten into you? :lol: I demand satisfaction sir! Dueling IPAs at 4 paces, to the last man standing. :-)
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Your description fits me well. :wink:
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The linked thread is hilarious, LMFAO.
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Getting back on topic....
What is the best way to internally brace or dampen these speakers?
What has been tried and what works the best?
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I can not see the point in doing any modifications on a $77 pair of speakers. Not worth the time and effort. Just sit back and enjoy. An amazing value and lots of fun.
This would be my approach to damping!
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Getting back on topic....
What is the best way to internally brace or dampen these speakers?
What has been tried and what works the best?
Easiest options would be Danny Richie's No Rez, Parts Express Sonic Barrier 3 Layer, Blackhole 5, etc. They are a little pricey though for the convenience of being able to cut and paste. Cheaper but more labor intensive would be vinyl floor tile w/ adhesive spray from Lowes Home Depot, Plasticlay, sure others will have recommend more. I think it's just as worthwhile to improve the Pioneers considering most budget speakers under say $500 tend to have cabs as the weak link anyway. The fact that they are $77 is only because it's pioneer - they'd cost a lot more if they were from a smaller company so why not treat them with the same care and deference?
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Hi guys! I am new to the forum and this is my first post here!!
So here is my story:
I just moved into a new place and I am looking to get myself a 2.0 system. This is a pretty small room (10x8) and I will be hooking the speaker to my computer, and obviously on a computer desk, so it will be a nearfield listening. I am sharing the house with other people and the sound isolation of this room isn't very good. I don't want to create too much excess noise with a 2.1 system that comes with a subwoofer. I am using my headphone and earphone right now and I really want to get a pair of good speaker as I can't stand long hours with headphone/earphone on my ears. I have been looking and reading reviews of different 2.0 systems and it seems the BS22 is hard to beat at this price point (well within my budget). The other 2.0 that I have in mind is the Audio Engine A2 but it sells for $200.
I am very new to this studio monitor kind of speaker, I have been using 2.1 system for computer in the past. So I have a few question I would like to ask before making any decision!
- I just went through the 21 pages on this thread and it seems like most of the BS22's are used with a TV set and none with a computer. I was wondering will the BS22 perform as well for a nearfield listening? I would say about 3 feet away.
- In order too connect the BS22 to my computer, what kind of instruments do I need? AFAIK I would need an amplifier, correct? If yes, it would be great if I can get one of that for less than $50, an affordable one!
Thanks!!
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I'm on a budget. I used 5 lbs of nondrying clay - for about 10 bucks. (Though I'd recommend 6 - I didn't want to wait to the next day to buy another pound.) It took me about a couple of hours to do it.
Starting at post 4037 - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1278774/pioneers-speaker-genius-hits-low-price-point/4020 (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1278774/pioneers-speaker-genius-hits-low-price-point/4020)
This is what I did and there are my impressions. At post 4040, Bill says to use simple internal cross braces.
The speaker is definitely improved by doing this - I know, I actually did it.
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charmerci, thanks for the clay tip.
Originally, I was not going to touch these speakers. However, I came across several pounds of left over clay after I packed my Technics D2 turntable plinth a while back. That hollow plastic base needed something. I guess the same can be applied to lining the speaker. Instead of letting it sit in the box, I might as well just use it in the Pioneers.
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charmerci, thanks for the clay tip.
Originally, I was not going to touch these speakers. However, I came across several pounds of left over clay after I packed my Technics D2 turntable plinth a while back. That hollow plastic base needed something. I guess the same can be applied to lining the speaker. Instead of letting it sit in the box, I might as well just use it in the Pioneers.
Let us know what you think. Make sure you use a good familiar recording for a before and after comparison. (You did read the posts and my warning on the tight fitting screws?)
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If you use beeswax, paraffin, soap or silicone spray on the screw threads they will likely go back in without incident.
Steve
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If you are going to modify speakers, just do one of them first.
Then set them side by side, switch your preamp to mono, and use the balance control to switch from one to the other and see if you can hear any difference. It would be useful to leave the room and have another person swap the speakers (or not) and listen again to remove the "I just made it better" bias.
Now you will really know if your gold input jacks, gonzo internal wires, or whatever. really makes any useful difference.
Frank VA
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Excellent comments everyone. The screws are very tight, but not bad if they are turned very slowly. I'll rub with paraffin. I'll try packing only one of the the speakers first and try the mono comparison.
By putting a couple of pounds of clay inside the speaker, doesn't that change the internal volume sufficiently to change the sound regardless if there is improved dampening?
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Correct, a couple of pounds of never hardening plastic clay probably will change the internal cabinet volume of a tiny speaker enough to make a sonic difference, and that won't necessary be good.
I would advise that you just coat the metal surfaces of the drivers themselves with a 1/8 inch thick layer, making sure you don't block any vent holes or interfere with driver motion.
You can soften the plastic clay in a microwave oven. Just try this for a few seconds at a time or you will end up with a pool of goo.
Regards,
Frank
PS Make sure you do just one speaker first and then compare. I actually did this at B&W in Worthing, England many years ago. I brought the damping clay with me and talked them into letting me do one of a matched pair of their high end small speakers. After I put the damped one back together nobody could tell which one I had done by just looking at them. We set them up in their sound lab and did the comparison. I was one of a whole bunch of B&W dealers there on a factory junket. In direct AB testing everyone preferred one of the speakers, it was a no brainer choice. We then opened them up and sure enough the one with the clay damped suspension was the hands down winner. Later B&W told me that careful use of their laser interferometer told them that acoustic output from the cast speaker frame was only 10 dB down from the output of the speaker cone at some frequencies. Nasty distortion they had previously overlooked completely.
Frank
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Home Depot sells one pound 'bricks' of black putty for $1.
It's the stuff you use around the HVAC and electrical lines where they enter your house to seal up the holes.
It never hardens so it won't vibrate loose and chip or crumble away and will forever be moldable.
Works great for dampening speaker baskets.
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Frank, I like the concept of just coating the metal surfaces of the drivers. I have never heard of doing that. What a smart idea.
Bob is this the stuff from Home Depot?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-14-oz-Plumber-s-Putty-311662/202312407#.Ui0iVsaTj84
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He is probably referring to this:
http://t.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-Duct-Seal-Compound-Plugs-10-Pack-DS-110/100212441/
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Again, we're talking here about cabinet resonance - not speaker or crossover parts quality. So if you want to make these comparisons - make sure you crank up those speakers to make those cabinets resonate and things vibrating!
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He is probably referring to this:
http://t.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-Duct-Seal-Compound-Plugs-10-Pack-DS-110/100212441/
Thanks Todd, Yes, that's closer to what I had in mind. Although the link only shows a thumbnail with no text to describe it.
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Don't use so called plumbers putty. It may have an acid component that could corrode connection wires or voice coils over time. Use plasticlay or Platilina which is available from art stores.
http://www.dickblick.com/products/sculpture-house-prima-plastilina-clay/
Frank Van Alstine
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By the way, coating the baskets of all the drivers in almost any speaker system with Plastilina will make a useful improvement technically. Any spurious output from any part of the speaker system except for the driven elements is wrong. The improvement may be small, or large, but it always going to be an improvement.
One step in doing this is to get a CD with a white noise track (or use FM tuner interchannel noise) and first do one speaker, set them side by side, and then with white noise as a source you can really easily hear the difference between the basket damped and the original speaker.
I have told every speaker builder I know to try this and I am universally ignored. :(
Try it, I guarantee you will like it.
Frank
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By putting a couple of pounds of clay inside the speaker, doesn't that change the internal volume sufficiently to change the sound regardless if there is improved dampening?
Anyone given any thought to dampening the cabinet externally?
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Better link for clay:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-Duct-Seal-Compound-Plugs-10-Pack-DS-110/100212441?keyword=Gardner+Bender+Duct+Seal+Compound#.Ui4F4-Qo5aQ
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Anyone given any thought to dampening the cabinet externally?
I've been listening to these internally-changed-volume speakers almost every day for 5 months now. Whatever changes happened, I like them. $100 bucks and a little work - they're a deal.
Anyway, one or two internal cross braces are probably just as effective and won't change the internal volume very much.
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The home made no res would also work well. Get some of the thick self stick vinyl floor panels from HD for about $1 each (double em up if you have to) and then glue some 1" open cell foam over that
This stuff works well
http://www.thefoamfactory.com/opencellfoam/acoustic.html
Or as someone else mentioned earlier, youcould always just pick up a sheet of no res. One sheet should easily do both speakers but that's a bit more $$
Not sure how carried away everyone wants to get with these but it may also be an idea to round the edges of any internal bracing you may choose to install
-jay
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Sorry if this has been discussed already, but being that these are inexpensive, has anyone tried stacking a few pair of
them?
For example, 4 pair, horizontally stacked like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiYjNfKyxNw
Per stack of 4, you probably want to wire 2 in series, and anther 2 in series, and then connect those in parallel to keep the nominal load at 6 ohms.
Being that the cabinet is rounded, horizontally stacking will require something to keep them secured to each other.
If I get to buying a few pair and playing with them, I'll post my findings 8)
Vinnie
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Okay, I now have my BS22's set up with a vintage Harman Kardon 330A receiver (EBay find, the shipping cost more than the receiver itself I think), and absolutely LOVE this- first time my stereo could give me goosebumps! The only problem is that this is in my office, and I only get to turn it up at the end of the day after everyone's left.
I have a H/K 730 too, but need to clean the internals (crackle and pop, 1 channel bad). I am 100% happy with this 330A though!
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Sorry if this has been discussed already, but being that these are inexpensive, has anyone tried stacking a few pair of
them?
If I get to buying a few pair and playing with them, I'll post my findings 8)
Vinnie
I'd be interested in hearing the outcome; I have wondered the same thing. Four should do it, although nine would be fun. :thumb:
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Has anyone tried two of the center channel speakers, SP-C22, as their LR mains? The stated freq response is the same but I imagine there would be a different quality to the bass due to the double woofers and let's not forget that they are 3dB more efficient.
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I'd be interested in hearing the outcome; I have wondered the same thing. Four should do it, although nine would be fun. :thumb:
Nine would be a lot of fun. It would be even more fun to build an amplifier output stage for each one! 8) Even those Sure Tripath 4 channel
amp boards sold on PartsExpress.com would be a fun experiment. Two of those boards is $100, and each board is 4-channels. So make one a left
and one a right output, and that'll take care of 4 pair.
I wish I had more free time to play! :duh:
Vinnie
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On sale again at Best Buy.
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I picked up a used pair of the previous model, SP-BS21-LR. They're pretty good. Is there any discernible difference in sound from the BS-22's?
Also, any opinions on the Pioneer SW-8MK2 subwoofer?
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On sale again at Best Buy.
Hi Todd,
Thanks for the heads up! I'm going to pick up a pair at my local BB tomorrow night. Should be fun to play around with, and
I know I'll end up using them long-term for our LCD. They have to be better than the speakers in the LCD! :thumb:
I'll post about it soon...
Vinnie
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I wonder if these were relabeled and shown at RMAF, .........
nahhh...nevermind. :icon_twisted:
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Think I might have to visit the BB across the street from my office at lunch! I'm trying really hard not to let myself buy 2 pair ($180) and stack them top-to-top or 4 pair ($360) and try them on their sides in a four-high array like Vinnie was suggesting.... fight the urge, fight the urge.
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^^^^^
Would be awesome with 4 pair. :thumb:
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Also, any opinions on the Pioneer SW-8MK2 subwoofer?
I got one with my BS-22s during the last BB sale. I think it ended up being $112 on sale. I think it's a really good match with the BS-22s. Very versatile and nearly impossible to beat at the sale price. I would recommend thinking of it more as the missing woofer to the BS-22 and not expect it to thunderously rock your HT setup...it's only an 8" sub after all.
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Think I might have to visit the BB across the street from my office at lunch! I'm trying really hard not to let myself buy 2 pair ($180) and stack them top-to-top or 4 pair ($360) and try them on their sides in a four-high array like Vinnie was suggesting.... fight the urge, fight the urge.
Please report on the outcome if you do buy them :thumb:
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Think I might have to visit the BB across the street from my office at lunch! I'm trying really hard not to let myself buy 2 pair ($180) and stack them top-to-top or 4 pair ($360) and try them on their sides in a four-high array like Vinnie was suggesting.... fight the urge, fight the urge.
You're not the only one fighting the urge for 4-pair at $360! I already have two "4-channel monoblocks" made up for fun in a proto box.
So each "monoblock" has 4 separate outputs, but they all see the same input.
Why am I doing this? For FUN! :green:
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Geez, as I am presently enjoying searching for a small set of affordable 2 channel speakers, I sure wish these were at BB in Canada!
For under $125 each, I might have to drive to Buffalo and deal with the border crossing etc.
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Vinnie
Go for it, sale end soon. :lol:
:thumb:
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Vinnie
Go for it, sale end soon. :lol:
:thumb:
How soon? :o
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It's BestBuy Weekly Deal, but I'm not too sure when it end.
:scratch:
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Geez, as I am presently enjoying searching for a small set of affordable 2 channel speakers, I sure wish these were at BB in Canada!
For under $125 each, I might have to drive to Buffalo and deal with the border crossing etc.
That price is for the pair.
Wayner
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It's BestBuy Weekly Deal, but I'm not too sure when it end.
:scratch:
Best Buy Weekly Sales always run from Sunday through Saturday.
There are special sales which run for a shorter time, like the current 'Columbus Day 4 Day Sale' ending today, or the 'Cyber Monday' sale today only, but the Pioneers are part of the Weekly Sale.
Steve
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Thanks, Guys.
I'll pick up a pair this evening and see what they can do. If they surprise me, I'll at least buy another pair.
I suppose for two pair, one can vertically stack them and flip the top speaker upside down so the tweeters become
located in the center. But I would think that it would be pretty close to just buying the SP-C22 Center Channel ($99).
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I've used mine layed horizontal then tipped forward with a couple of Herbies flat dot things under the speaker so fires straight cause of the curved cabinet. They sound super that way.
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Ok guys,
I've been playing the SP-B22-LRs for a few hours now. I am very impressed! :) A lot has already been written about
them here and on other forums like stevehoffman and audiogon, so I won't say much because most of it has been
said already.
The fact that you can get a pair now for $90 is pretty incredible - a huge value! I urge you to just grab a pair, even if you
don't current have the need at the moment. Give them to a friend or family member and get them into this hobby. Pair them
with the $20 Lepai T-amp from Partsexpress and it will BLOW AWAY a Dr Dre Pill boombox, bose wave radio, and the like that cost
a lot more. Use them in a 2nd or 3rd system, in the office, or on the desktop. If you want to learn more about speakers, open up a pair to
study them and play with them (crossover parts, cabinet damping/bracing, etc.). :whip:
So... what about adding more pairs? This is something that I've been curious about. I suspect that doing so will result in a bigger sound
and they should be able to play louder with less strain. But I have to say that for their size, they don't sound that small [I have mine 6 feet from the wall behind them, and I'm listening fairly near field. They image very well, offer a very balanced sound, and overall they do a lot of things well. For me, they are more impressive sounding at moderate volumes than when played at louder levels].
I may have to get at least 1 more pair and have some more fun with these little guys! :hyper: I'll post if I do.
That's all for now...
Vinnie
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Ok guys,
I've been playing the SP-B22-LRs for a few hours now. I am very impressed! :) A lot has already been written about
them here and on other forums like stevehoffman and audiogon, so I won't say much because most of it has been
said already.
The fact that you can get a pair now for $90 is pretty incredible - a huge value! I urge you to just grab a pair, even if you
don't current have the need at the moment. Give them to a friend or family member and get them into this hobby. Pair them
with the $20 Lepai T-amp from Partsexpress and it will BLOW AWAY a Dr Dre Pill boombox, bose wave radio, and the like that cost
a lot more. Use them in a 2nd or 3rd system, in the office, or on the desktop. If you want to learn more about speakers, open up a pair to
study them and play with them (crossover parts, cabinet damping/bracing, etc.). :whip:
So... what about adding more pairs? This is something that I've been curious about. I suspect that doing so will result in a bigger sound
and they should be able to play louder with less strain. But I have to say that for their size, they don't sound that small [I have mine 6 feet from the wall behind them, and I'm listening fairly near field. They image very well, offer a very balanced sound, and overall they do a lot of things well. For me, they are more impressive sounding at moderate volumes than when played at louder levels].
I may have to get at least 1 more pair and have some more fun with these little guys! :hyper: I'll post if I do.
That's all for now...
Vinnie
Thanks for the update. I didn't make it over to BB yesterday, but I'm hoping to grab a pair today. The one thing keeping me from giving multiple pairs a try (other than the $90xN), is the resulting distance between tweeters and what effect that might have on sound quality. Hopefully someone will give it a go, but probably not me (the wife and one-year-old probably wouldn't appreciate it just now) :nono:
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If you want to learn more about speakers, open up a pair to study them and play with them (crossover parts, cabinet damping/bracing, etc.). :whip:
I may have to get at least 1 more pair and have some more fun with these little guys! :hyper: I'll post if I do.
That's all for now...
Vinnie
If you read through this entire thread, you'll see that Dennis Murphy (Salk, Philharmonic Audio, Ellis speakers) has had a detailed look at this crossover and says that it's doubtful you can do better with this set. I've taken them apart and with my semi-half trained observant eyes am pretty impressed with the quality of the crossover parts.
I've damped the entire cabinet and can say it does make a difference especially at louder levels.
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FYI, Amazon dropped their price to $89.99.
(I submitted a price match to Amazon against Best Buy the other day, though I have no idea if that was the trigger or not.)
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I've used mine layed horizontal then tipped forward with a couple of Herbies flat dot things under the speaker so fires straight cause of the curved cabinet. They sound super that way.
You could make a pretty wicked line array with a setup like that. I'd bet 4 pair running everything from 80Hz on up would fill a 200-300 capacity club pretty nicely. Use another 4 pair for the band's monitors, and a couple of homebrew 2x10 subs, and you're ready to start it up right!
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You could make a pretty wicked line array with a setup like that. I'd bet 4 pair running everything from 80Hz on up would fill a 200-300 capacity club pretty nicely. Use another 4 pair for the band's monitors, and a couple of homebrew 2x10 subs, and you're ready to start it up right!
hi dlparker et al,
Do you know the theory behind this? If you use 4 speakers in a line array, do you know:
- The optimum distance between the drivers?
- How many more dB of max output do you get per added pair? (assuming each speaker gets its own amplifier channel)?
- Does adding more pairs of speakers to the line array extend the low frequency response, or is the limitation in the physics
of using a 4" driver?
I never experimented with this, so curious about it and if there are any links to learn more about it.
Thanks,
Vinnie
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If stacking could work, I may be interested in giving it a try. Already have a pair, which I've been using for at least 3 months now. Also have a very beefy 4-channel classdaudio amp, 300W/600W 8/4ohm per channel. But how would this work, since my DAC's are 2-channel?
One possible configuration? Two XLR Y-cables to split DAC 2-channel into 4 amp-channels. Does this half the voltage, or just the amperage? Either one speaker per amp channel, or two possibly since my amp should be able to handle very low impedance (to at least 2 ohm). So either 2 or 4 stacked Pioneers per side. Or maybe use the center channels in the same configuration?
Here is a good link about how the bookshelf and center speaker measure. The bookshelf actually has slightly deeper bass despite having only one woofer. However, the center has greater efficiency and power handling. Minimum impedance is 6 ohm for the center, which would be a 3-ohm load to the amp if I doubled up right? The amp shouldn't flinch at that.
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
If somebody could make sure that this is an electrically sound idea, I may be interested in trying. But I'd need guidance before attempting, down to the cabling.
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accidental double post
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If stacking could work, I may be interested in giving it a try. Already have a pair, which I've been using for at least 3 months now. Also have a very beefy 4-channel classdaudio amp, 300W/600W 8/4ohm per channel. But how would this work, since my DAC's are 2-channel?
One possible configuration? Two XLR Y-cables to split DAC 2-channel into 4 amp-channels. Does this half the voltage, or just the amperage? Either one speaker per amp channel, or two possibly since my amp should be able to handle very low impedance (to at least 2 ohm). So either 2 or 4 stacked Pioneers per side. Or maybe use the center channels in the same configuration?
Here is a good link about how the bookshelf and center speaker measure. The bookshelf actually has slightly deeper bass despite having only one woofer. However, the center has greater efficiency and power handling. Minimum impedance is 6 ohm for the center, which would be a 3-ohm load to the amp if I doubled up right? The amp shouldn't flinch at that.
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
If somebody could make sure that this is an electrically sound idea, I may be interested in trying. But I'd need guidance before attempting.
Hi mamba315,
For a 4 channel amp, simply wire the inputs of two of the channels together (or use a splitter RCA cable if you don't want to solder). So those two channels would feed two speakers that are stacked on one side. Do the same for the other two channels for the other side.
If you want to do 4 speakers per side, then I would wire two in series (channel 1, L) and other two in series (channel 2, L), and do the same for the right side. You have plenty of power, so no need to run in parallel. 4 in parallel will probably hurt the amp with a brutal < 2-ohm load in the bass freq. range.
Vinnie
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hi dlparker et al,
Do you know the theory behind this? If you use 4 speakers in a line array, do you know:
- The optimum distance between the drivers?
- How many more dB of max output do you get per added pair? (assuming each speaker gets its own amplifier channel)?
- Does adding more pairs of speakers to the line array extend the low frequency response, or is the limitation in the physics
of using a 4" driver?
I never experimented with this, so curious about it and if there are any links to learn more about it.
Thanks,
Vinnie
I don't know the answers to those questions and I'd be curious to know. I'm trying to extend the "Cheap and Cheerful" concept to live music, with the "Cheerful" part being composed more and more of "small and light" the older I get. I read about the technical aspects of all this stuff from time to time, but it doesn't really stay with me. I'm thinking about the coupling effects of each separate unit, 'coupled' with a good power amp for both the mains and monitors. "Small and light" just doesn't really apply when it comes to power amps, though. What I want to try is one of the AVA power amps driving the mains and monitors. I've got an Insight+ 220 (I think it is) that I'd like to try in that application, and then a couple of powered 2x10" sub cabs driven with a plate amp.
So far it's just a pipe dream, but at least SOME of my pipe dreams have actually come true!
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Since this would be to simply explore the viability of an idea, I would not want to modify the amp with my iron. So I'd probably start with an XLR Y-cable. Is this viable with a balanced cable too? Would you expect better performance with the soldering method?
How could I wire 2 speakers in series? Never done that before, but I'm okay with cable type DIY stuff.
And of course, does the bookshelf or center make a better candidate "on paper"? Questions questions...
4 per side sounds interesting, but the cost will need to be considered since this is purely experimental.
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hi dlparker et al,
Do you know the theory behind this? If you use 4 speakers in a line array, do you know:
- The optimum distance between the drivers?
- How many more dB of max output do you get per added pair? (assuming each speaker gets its own amplifier channel)?
- Does adding more pairs of speakers to the line array extend the low frequency response, or is the limitation in the physics
of using a 4" driver?
I never experimented with this, so curious about it and if there are any links to learn more about it.
Thanks,
Vinnie
Regarding the optimum distance between tweeters, as I understand it you want the distance to be as small as possible to minimize acoustical interference or comb filtering - "This phenomenon occurs when a single sound source such as a loudspeaker shares the same bandwidth across multiple drivers within the cabinet separated by a physical distance greater than the wavelength of propagation." As I understand it, which is only on the most basic level based on what I've read recently, the effect will be less pronounced the further you sit from the speaker array.
Here is the article from which that quote was pulled, though there is a lot more out there this topic... search line arrays, comb filtering and stacking speakers (especially over at audiokarm.org)
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/comb-filtering
With the BS22, the closest you can get the tweeters (center to center) is the width of the cabinet at 7-1/8" which corresponds to a wavelength of about 1900 Hz. So certain frequencies above that would then be susceptible to this interference (I have no idea how you go about calculating this and there is some debate about how noticeable this will be). The woofers would likely get some boost because they are much closer than the wavelength
As for increased dB and frequency range, I believe it is related to the phenomenon as well. In general you get a +3dB increase each doubling of the speakers assuming they are coherent (occupying the same space). But that does not account for constructive/destructive coupling between stacked drivers at various frequencies. The woofers may get some additional low-end boost because they are very close together relative to the long wavelengths of low frequencies (again, caveat based on my basic understanding of all this).
The upshot seems to be - Yes, you'll be able to play louder but stacking can cause peaks and valleys in the frequency response that will affect tone and imaging.
I'm beginning to think stacking these probably isn't going to match a properly designed line array and will probably cause more problems than it is worth... unless you just want it to go to 11.
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Since this would be to simply explore the viability of an idea, I would not want to modify the amp with my iron. So I'd probably start with an XLR Y-cable. Is this viable with a balanced cable too? Would you expect better performance with the soldering method?
How could I wire 2 speakers in series? Never done that before, but I'm okay with cable type DIY stuff.
And of course, does the bookshelf or center make a better candidate "on paper"? Questions questions...
4 per side sounds interesting, but the cost will need to be considered since this is purely experimental.
Check out the wiring diagrams for the line array kits over at zalytron.com - they show how you can wire up series/parallel with various numbers of speakers. To wire two speakers in series and maintain proper phase between them:
Amp+ > Spk1+
Spk1- > Spk2+
Spk2- > Amp-
As for what impedance your amp will see per channel and whether or not it can handle it see below. This assumes a 6 ohm impedance for the BS22, but the Stereophile measurements show they drop to 4.5 ohm at 250 Hz and go up quite a bit higher than 6 ohms at the top end:
- 2x speakers in sereis = 12 ohms
- 2x speakers in parallel = 3 ohms
- 4x speakers in series/parallel = 6 ohms
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H Krikor,
Thanks for the information you posted. You might be right about stacking. Still, it might be fun to try 2 speakers per channel and flipping
the top one on the stack upside down. For an extra $90, it's hard to resist trying! :thumb:
Yes, the 6-ohm rating is the "nominal" impedance of the B22. It does dip down to 4.5 ohm so two in parallel will give 2.25 ohm at that
freq. Ideally, each speaker will get its own channel. I would think that will give best results.
And of course, does the bookshelf or center make a better candidate "on paper"? Questions questions...
Hi Mamba, Not sure. I wish Andrew Jones participated here. :green: I'm going to go with 2 pairs because it'll be easier to get more
volume from these little guys (with each speaker getting its own channel, and its own box).
Vinnie
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Andrew Jones is an Audiocircles member. Look at the early entries to this thread.
Wayner
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Hello,
Dont know if i am allowed to do this or not but if i am not then remove it but since this is just an add for these speakers i thought i might help a few people out who have been looking for a deal.
http://www.techbargains.com/news_displayItem.cfm/371994
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Hi tvyankee,
How have you been? Hope all is going well for you and thanks for the link.
Hi Wayner,
I saw that - thank you.
I also found this from Rueben on page 11:
I bought a pair of the BS22's for my kid and a pair of the C22's (MTM center channel) for me. The sibilance that the towers (bought and returned) produced was there in the C22 as well (although they sounded better than the towers overall). I ended up swapping the crossovers between the BS22's and C22's and WOW!!! That's what I was after when I bought the C22's. A bigger sounding version of the BS22's!
My 13 year old daughter prefers the "clarity" of her BS22's with the C22 crossovers, so it's a win-win.
So it looks like AJ tweaked the crossover of the center channel a bit, probably to emphasize the mids (for vocals). It's probably one or two
part value changes. So I guess one can get the C22s and if they can post pics of the crossover and values, we can compare to the B22 and know
what to change them to to make the C22 with B22 crossover.
Also - looks like AJ left this thread a while back. :o
Vinnie
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I was out this evening and swung by BB - I couldn't help myself! :oops:
So later this evening I'll be running a pair of double-BS22s. We'll see what happens....
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So later this evening I'll be running a pair of double-BS22s. We'll see what happens....
Sweet, let us know...
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I think the fun will start at 4 per side! Cruise by BB again!
I picture a ribbon set up to secure them horizontally, like those children's toys:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=88538)
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Newegg has the sub for $79.99. I just picked one up at BB for that price under their price matching policy.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117402
The 4 item combo looks like a great deal too.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.1464018
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Didnt say exactly but i quess you would see from my pics that laying the Pioneers flat on top of the Clements sound good . And you just gotta remembert the price.
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Newegg has the sub for $79.99. I just picked one up at BB for that price under their price matching policy.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117402
BB price matched a new model MkII for an old model?
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BB price matched a new model MkII for an old model?
Apparently
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BB price matched a new model MkII for an old model?
For some odd reason the Mk I and II are still priced the same.
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I was out this evening and swung by BB - I couldn't help myself! :oops:
So later this evening I'll be running a pair of double-BS22s. We'll see what happens....
Hey Vinnie, how's are Doubly Pioneers working out? All my talk and I missed the sale, but I'm sure it will be back before the holidays. :duh:
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All,
Ok - so I did test the double pioneers. I have the top one placed on top of the bottom one, but upside down.
Right off the bat, I noticed a greater sense of bass... actually, it was being felt in my near field position! The sound is
louder and more dynamic. Pretty surprising for two 4" drivers per side!
However for all other aspects of the presentation, it was detrimental. I lost the sweet top end. It was tipped up a bit too much
, and the overall blending of the drive units was not nearly as good as just having the 4" driver and tweeter. After an hour or so of
listening, I had to swap back to the single speakers. I was initially excited by the better bottom end and ability to feel the sound
more, but no longer was enjoying the rest of the sound like I did with the stereo pair alone.
I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that there is not only an extra tweeter than probably is not needed, but also because
the spacing between the drivers is not optimal. The two tweeters are probably too far apart. And while I'm not a speaker design,
I'm guessing that the crossovers should be optimized for the extra driver(s) as the FR of the speakers will change with the extra
drivers.
So my guess is that going with the center channels (with the crossover board of the stereo pair installed, or modifying the crossover board
to match that of the stereo pair's board) would probably yield the best results. There would only be one tweeter in this case, and the two
bass/midrange units equally separated away from the tweeter. The cabinet volume of the center speaker is also larger.
That's about it for now. I has the two speakers in parallel and driven my the Signature 57. The Signature 57 has no problem with 2-ohm loads,
so it did not even get warm playing a fairly loud levels in my room. It was a lot of fun, but I just can't live with the sound.
I hope this helps,
Vinnie
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I'll chime in on my stacking experience as well, to provide another perspective.
I started with a single pair of SP-BS22-LR driven by an Onkyo A-9555. Source is streaming from a Logitech Touch
to a TADAC 2009. Speakers are on 24" stands. A Pioneer SW-8MK2 helps extend the bottom end.
Listening room is very small, 8 1/2 x 10, tight quarters.
First, after reading much on acoustic interference and comb filtering, I had doubts that this would work.
But, the interest pushed me into picking up another pair. If they didn't work for stacking then I figure I could use them
elsewhere.
I tried them stacked vertical, tweeter to tweeter and also horizonal, wired in parallel. Sound was so-so and certainly
not worth keeping in this configuration. I listened to the stacked speakers for a couple of days but the sound
did not improve. Chalking it up to acoustic interference, I decided to abandon.
Pondering some more, I decided to try one last stab. With the speakers vertically stacked, tweeter to tweeter, I took
out the parallel wiring and ran another pair of speaker cables to the Speaker B taps on the Onkyo. Beforehand, I had
both speakers running off the Speaker A taps, with the parallel wiring from the bottom speaker to the top one.
With the Onkyo set to speakers A+B, I heard a vastly improved sound from the stack. This time around, they retained
and improved upon the sonics that a single pair present.
The stack is now staying put and driving the 2nd pair of speakers from the other speaker taps on the integrated made
a world of difference.
Of course, YMMV :D
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I've laid em flat on top of my Clements . And I just have to really remember thier limitations . For a small speaker they sound decent but when compared to the Clements and the fact that Clements is a good size speaker it's not a fair comparison, but the pioneers don't even come close to the clarity of clements
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Anyone here upgrade capacitors on these little gems - if you did, can you post what the value for the caps are and is it a worth while thing to do. Thanks
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However for all other aspects of the presentation, it was detrimental. I lost the sweet top end. It was tipped up a bit too much
, and the overall blending of the drive units was not nearly as good as just having the 4" driver and tweeter. After an hour or so of
listening, I had to swap back to the single speakers. I was initially excited by the better bottom end and ability to feel the sound
more, but no longer was enjoying the rest of the sound like I did with the stereo pair alone.
Thanks for the update... I'll probably give a pair a try when they go on sale again, but doubt I'll double up. Though I still wonder if stacking them horizontally would provide any difference since it will put the woofers closer together (of course a little more difficult with the curved cabinet).
Pondering some more, I decided to try one last stab. With the speakers vertically stacked, tweeter to tweeter, I took
out the parallel wiring and ran another pair of speaker cables to the Speaker B taps on the Onkyo. Beforehand, I had
both speakers running off the Speaker A taps, with the parallel wiring from the bottom speaker to the top one.
With the Onkyo set to speakers A+B, I heard a vastly improved sound from the stack. This time around, they retained
and improved upon the sonics that a single pair present.
Surprising it would make that much of a difference since I believe the Onkyo A/B speaker outlets are also wired in parallel... you've simply moved the connection point to inside the Onkyo. Of course it gives you a double speaker run so I guess that could be the contributing factor.
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Surprising it would make that much of a difference since I believe the Onkyo A/B speaker outlets are also wired in parallel... you've simply moved the connection point to inside the Onkyo. Of course it gives you a double speaker run so I guess that could be the contributing factor.
I agree. The A/B binding posts should be paralleled internal to the Onkyo. I can't explain why but the difference for me is night and day. I could see if I screwed up the parallel connections by crossing up +/-, inducing cancellation and phase issues but that wasn't the case. Glad I gave it a 2nd chance because I'm very much enjoying the setup. I can always switch to A or B should I want to listen to a single pair.
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I've laid em flat on top of my Clements . And I just have to really remember thier limitations . For a small speaker they sound decent but when compared to the Clements and the fact that Clements is a good size speaker it's not a fair comparison, but the pioneers don't even come close to the clarity of clements
Stereophile's testing indicated that the speakers should be placed with the tweeters at ear-level. Perhaps this would increase the clarity somewhat.
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Stereophile's testing indicated that the speakers should be placed with the tweeters at ear-level. Perhaps this would increase the clarity somewhat.
If you are referring to the fact that John Atkinson measures frequency response on the tweeter axis, I have always thought that this was a flaw in his procedure and provides slightly erroneous data. Speakers are not designed with this as reference axis, except for coaxial designs. The design reference is usually approximately halfway between the mid (or bass/mid in a two way) and the tweeter. Most manufacturers don't specify, though. Among domestic speakers, I know B&W to be an exception. I think J.A. should arbitrarily choose the halfway point if the manufacturer does not specify.
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Not exactly:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-loudspeaker-measurements
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The speakers' crossovers.
"front"
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89009)
"back"
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89010)
Pretty impressive for a dirt cheap speaker.
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Not exactly:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-loudspeaker-measurements
I stand by what I said regarding JA's technique. I think it's flawed, and I guess it's time to raise the issue at Stereophile, which I will do when I have an hour to spare for handling the back-and-forth.
Look at the response curve for 5º below horizontal and then realize that with the relative increased distance from the tweeter and decreased distance from the woofer time alignment would be affected which would affect the step response in a positive fashion. JA is speaking somewhat loosely, I believe when he says "same height as listeners' ears". I think slightly higher might well be better, but then Alan Jones would know that and he probably wasn't asked - and I'd guess Pioneer wouldn't know or say in the owners manual.
Pragmatically, you could simply pick up the speaker and face it towards you, vary the vertical angle and listen.
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I have no argument with your assertions. Atkinson suggests 5 degrees above to 10 degrees below the tweeter axis would be optimum. I was merely pointing out that placing the speakers on top of one's existing speaker setup, although convenient, would probably not be ideal.
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Dennis just sent me a pair of Pioneer 22 speakers he has upgraded. New tweeters, revised crossovers, and now much flatter frequency response and the midrange dip and ratty top end is fixed.
I am comparing them right now with a stock pair using my level matched ABX box and my first impressions are very favorable.
I will write a more detailed report when I have listened a lot longer to them.
Dennis told me he hope to be able to provide upgraded speakers for about $150 a pair complete, and that will make them a bigger bargain than the stock ones were.
Frank Van Alstine
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Dennis just sent me a pair of Pioneer 22 speakers he has upgraded. New tweeters, revised crossovers, and now much flatter frequency response and the midrange dip and ratty top end is fixed.
I am comparing them right now with a stock pair using my level matched ABX box and my first impressions are very favorable.
I will write a more detailed report when I have listened a lot longer to them.
Dennis told me he hope to be able to provide upgraded speakers for about $150 a pair complete, and that will make them a bigger bargain than the stock ones were.
Frank Van Alstine
This sounds awesome! Do you know if he plans on offering an upgrade kit for those of us who already have the speakers?
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That sounds like an excellent idea.
Been following this thread and the fact that it is 25+ pages shows that there is a lot of interest in "cheap-n-cheerful" hifi.
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That sounds like an excellent idea.
Been following this thread and the fact that it is 25+ pages shows that there is a lot of interest in "cheap-n-cheerful" hifi.
Some or many of us don't have a choice but to be C&C. Just a love for music and sound with no budget.
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This sounds awesome! Do you know if he plans on offering an upgrade kit for those of us who already have the speakers?
Hi. I'll await Frank's final word before I make any definite plans. There are actually 2 mods--the full blown version that Frank has, and a much simpler one that can easily be done
in the field. Unfortunately, shipping costs(for the parts and for your speakers) pretty much rule out my doing retrofits for people, and the full mod is probably more than you would want to take on yourself. But all of this is academic for the moment.
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How about a kit with instructions (and parts)?
Wayner
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Some or many of us don't have a choice but to be C&C. Just a love for music and sound with no budget.
Hey... Wait a minnit.... THAT'S ME!!! :lol:
Actually, that's my definition of an "audiophile"- "someone who cares about music and sound", not necessarily "someone who drops megabucks on an audio system".
Dennis, does the "full blown" version require cabinet mod of some sort or is the substitute tweeter a "drop in"?
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Dennis, does the "full blown" version require cabinet mod of some sort or is the substitute tweeter a "drop in"?
I can't seem to find his post on another forum but IIRC, one is just replacing/adding a capacitor and the other is a new xover with the Vifa tweeter.
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I can't seem to find his post on another forum but IIRC, one is just replacing/adding a capacitor and the other is a new xover with the Vifa tweeter.
Put me down for one of the Vifa plus x-over mods (actually two, I guess..)!
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I removed the text of this message, because I have now posted it as a new thread. Sorry, this was the first time I posted anything in the forum, and I made a mistake.
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.
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I'm really reluctant to go into details on this until Frank and one other person have reported in. But to answer one specific questions, the Vifa is not quite a 100% drop in for the Pioneer. The Pioneer has its + and - terminals next to each other. The Vifa has them at opposite sides of the chassis. So you have to make a lttle notch in the routing at the top to make room for the other Vifa terninal. It's a snap with a jig saw, but I suspect a sharp knife would also work. If you hate the Vifa and wish I never existed, you can replace the stock tweeter. No problem there.
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Do keep us informed, Dennis.
Thanks!
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=90116)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=90117)
I have had time to do some serious listening and directly comparing a stock set of Pioneer 22 and ones with Dennis's full upgrade this weekend. The upgrade consists of a new tweeter and a revised crossover.
Both are connected to my level matching ABX box. I used a new Transcendence Nine preamp, Synergy 300 and Fet Valve 600R amplifiers, my Sony PS-X5 turntable with special Denon DL103 "Longhorn" cartridge installed, and a prototype solid state passive EQ phono preamp set in the moving coil mode.
Attached are Before and After frequency response curves of the speakers.
I listened to a variety of vocal and instrumental recordings. The overall difference between the speakers is quite well described by the curves.
First, the stock SP-BS22 remains a really nice little speaker and a great value as is. However, in comparison to the "fixed" ones they are too hot in the mid treble range, have a big dip in the midrange so that female singers just loose their bodies - singing from the throat only and their sound get pinched on top. Something is getting in the way in their low frequency response range too, just not as defined here either.
The "Dennis" 22s have much better bass definition, and much better overall balance. The extreme top end is more defined and smooth.
Right now as I am writing this, I am switched to the stock speakers and every so often I am interrupted by the system for all the wrong reasons and I have to switch back to the upgraded 22s to get my attention back to this.
The upper midrange emphasis and hot treble of the stock 22s does not sound all that bad all by itself. I stand on my comments made when I started this thread eleven months and 26 pages ago. The stock Pioneer SP-BS22 is a very good speaker and an outstanding value.
However Dennis's upgraded 22s turns a great value into an extraordinary value and I highly recommend them, especially if he can furnish complete sets at $150 a pair.
I own a pair of the bigger Pioneer 52 towers that have been put away in their boxes since the second day I got them. They are ready for UPS pickup today to ship to Dennis to see what new tweeters and a decent crossover can do for them.
What more can I say.
Frank Van Alstine
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What more can I say.
Frank Van Alstine
"Dennis is The Man"?
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Thanks very much for the report Frank. I just want to elaborate on one point. The "before" plot you posted might alarm some current 22 owners, and might also generate a nasty call from Andrew Jones, since it looks like the stock 22 has a serious crossover design issue. The problem is not with the crossover, but with quality control on the stock tweeter. What you posted is definitely how this particular speaker measured before the mod, but it's the worst I've seen. Other samples have measured better, although all differently. In fairness to Andrew, I've posted how a much better sample measures. In any event, the problem is not so much the frequency response, but an inherent lack of clarity in the lower range of the tweeter. That's the main reason I swtiched tweeters.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=90121)
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I should point out that in making the comparison here, the stock pair we used were not the ones Dennis supplied the "better" frequency response for.
The samples I have here were purchased independently from a local Best Buy by my electrical engineer.
From the way they sound, I suspect their curves would be better represented by the "before" curve I posted. Dennis has never seen this particular stock set of speakers.
Frank
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Dennis,
Since many of us already have the speakers and it is not cost effective to ship the speakers to you for the complete mod, do you have a curve for just the tweeter change out?
2nd question: It may be of interest for us to ship just the crossover for the mod and each individual could then order and install the new tweeter? Would this be of interest? With flat rate shipping boxes, this may be cost effective depending on the cost of the crossover mod.
Thanks
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I should point out that in making the comparison here, the stock pair we used were not the ones Dennis supplied the "better" frequency response for.
The samples I have here were purchased independently from a local Best Buy by my electrical engineer.
From the way they sound, I suspect their curves would be better represented by the "before" curve I posted. Dennis has never seen this particular stock set of speakers.
Frank
Right. I don't have a clue as to how your stock pair would measure. What I find interesting is that all of the units I've listened to have had the same sonic signature irrespective of differences in the frequency response. I can onl;y conclude that the tweeter's design limitations down low dominate quality control issues further up. Thanks again for giving my mod such a careful evaluation. For those of you who have never witnessed Frank's magic ABX comparo in action, it's an amazing machine, greatly to be feared by manufacturers and retailers of designer caps, coils, and connectors. If there's no difference, you will hear no difference. If there is, you will. Assuming, of course, you don't know which test unit is being played.
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I guess I'm confused. Are you fixing a specification error that Andrew over-looked or are you fixing a manufacturing tolerance defect? I certainly can't believe that Andrew would let a dip like this be the norm for standard product. And if you fixing this for a manufacturing tolerance, then none of the "repairs" will count, as one must assume that the deviation of the tweeter has a typical +/- tolerance to it's performance.
So, unless you sampled many units to determine that there is in fact a design error, or a manufacturing error, the fix has no frame of reference, as it seems the tweeter's performance can be "all over the place".
So then I must ask, what are you actually trying to accomplish here?
Wayner
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Dennis,
Since many of us already have the speakers and it is not cost effective to ship the speakers to you for the complete mod, do you have a curve for just the tweeter change out?
2nd question: It may be of interest for us to ship just the crossover for the mod and each individual could then order and install the new tweeter? Would this be of interest? With flat rate shipping boxes, this may be cost effective depending on the cost of the crossover mod.
Thanks
Hi. You wouldn't want to just swap in the new tweet--that would produce a large dip in the lower treble response. You would need to add a 4.0 uf series cap before the positive tweeter terminal. That's an interesting idea about sending me the stock crossover. You wouldn't want to order the tweet yourself--I can get it way cheaper. I'll have to total up the cost, but it's not going to be super attractive. I can sell a new pair with the mod for $150 only because I get the speaker wholesale and I don't incur any shipping costs. You can't infer from the $150 cost that the mod only costs about $25 (based on the current retail price of around $129). I would have to charge more like $75 plus return shipping to make it worth doing. And even then I would be paying myself about $3 an hour. The most attractive option for current owners, IMHO, would be to just do the tweeter and cap mod. I've attached a simulation of that version. The rise at the top end looks worse than it sounds. I doubt that you could hear it at all.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=90125)
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I guess I'm confused. Are you fixing a specification error that Andrew over-looked or are you fixing a manufacturing tolerance defect? I certainly can't believe that Andrew would let a dip like this be the norm for standard product. And if you fixing this for a manufacturing tolerance, then none of the "repairs" will count, as one must assume that the deviation of the tweeter has a typical +/- tolerance to it's performance.
So, unless you sampled many units to determine that there is in fact a design error, or a manufacturing error, then the fix has no frame of reference, as it seems the tweeter's performance can be "all over the place".
So then I must ask, what are you actually trying to accomplish here?
Wayner
Hmmmmm We seem to be talking past one another. I'm saying that the actual run of stock tweeters varies widely in frequency response, but that they all have the same sonic problem that caused me to do the mod. I don't know what the response profile was for the tweeter(s) Andrew used to develop the crossover, but I suspect it was like the "good" unit I posted. The xover is extremely well done--lots of bang for the buck with excellent phase integration. But I don't like the inherent sound of the tweeter. So I replaced it and adjusted the Xover for it keeping as many of the stock parts as I could. And I like the new speaker much better than any of the stock units I've heard. That's it. there ain't no more.
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Well, the up and down hum that is shown on the graph is what I believe the first model XX-XX21-XX had, and as I read his story, he changed the throating on the tweeter to smooth this out and to increase the speaker's efficiency for the now current SP-BS22-LR.
With the new mod, has the speaker's efficiency changed, and has the off-axis response changed?
Wayner
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Well, the up and down hum that is shown on the graph is what I believe the first model XX-XX21-XX had, and as I read his story, he changed the throating on the tweeter to smooth this out and to increase the speaker's efficiency for the now current SP-BS22-LR.
With the new mod, has the speaker's efficiency changed, and has the off-axis response changed?
Wayner
I don't know the history of the tweeter. I'm not sure why he would want to increase the sensitivity--he has to pad it down with a 6.8 ohm series resistor and a 33 ohm parallel. For what it's worth, the 22's measured with more harmonic distortion at the low end than other tweeters I've worked with. But distortion measurements are tricky to do, and I wouldn't want to swear that what I'm hearing is harmonic distortion. It's just a possiblity. Do you happen to know whether the tweeter uses cooling fluid? I haven't disassembled one yet to see. inconsistent application of fluid could cause QC problems like this.
For the full mod, sensitivity is down maybe .5 dB. I'm using more inductance on the woofer to blend better with the Vifa. Off axis response is typical for this kind of design. There's a little flare at the crossover point due to the tweeter's superior dispersion, but not any more (and perhaps a little less) than the vast majority of speakers. It's a little hard for me to get a handle on the off axis behavior of the stock tweeter since the frequency response varied so much.
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.....
I would have to charge more like $75 plus return shipping to make it worth doing. And even then I would be paying myself about $3 an hour. The most attractive option for current owners, IMHO, would be to just do the tweeter and cap mod.
....
$75 plus shipping to send a pair to you have you do the mods? Sounds like a deal to me! Put me down for one! Where and when do I ship?
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$75 plus shipping to send a pair to you have you do the mods? Sounds like a deal to me! Put me down for one! Where and when do I ship?
Hi. Seems kind of expensive to me, but I guess they might be worth a total cost of around $200. I plan on offering the modded speaker as a Philharmonic Audio offering (with full disclosure on its origins), but I will feel more comfortable about doing that after I get another review or two. If I don't go through with that, then I couldn't make any bulk orders and couldn't meet the $75 price. We'll have to see in a week or so.
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Did I miss which tweeter (Vifa) was used in the upgrade? Is it only the addition of a 4uf cap before the tweeter terminal? I think I read something about more inductance on the woofer also?
I looked but could not find anything.
Sounds like a very doable DIY project for someone who has a soldering iron.
Thanks,
Scott
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Did I miss which tweeter (Vifa) was used in the upgrade? Is it only the addition of a 4uf cap before the tweeter terminal? I think I read something about more inductance on the woofer also?
I looked but could not find anything.
Sounds like a very doable DIY project for someone who has a soldering iron.
Thanks,
Scott
Hi This is the tweeter, which can now be ordered retail for close to my wholesale price. http://www.parts-express.com/vifa-bc25tg15-04-1-silk-dome-tweeter--264-1040
There are two mods--one just replaces the stock tweet with this Vifa, and adds a 4.0 uf capacitor in line with the tweeter positive terminal. It also requires you to clip the 33 ohm resistor on the stock board, which can be done with a nail clipper. The other more involved mod requires a complete rebuild of the Xover board, including more inductance on the woofer and some added and replacement parts to the stock tweeter circuit. That's the mod I intend to offer as a finished speaker for $150/pr.
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Hi This is the tweeter, which can now be ordered retail for close to my wholesale price. http://www.parts-express.com/vifa-bc25tg15-04-1-silk-dome-tweeter--264-1040
There are two mods--one just replaces the stock tweet with this Vifa, and adds a 4.0 uf capacitor in line with the tweeter positive terminal. It also requires you to clip the 33 ohm resistor on the stock board, which can be done with a nail clipper. The other more involved mod requires a complete rebuild of the Xover board, including more inductance on the woofer and some added and replacement parts to the stock tweeter circuit. That's the mod I intend to offer as a finished speaker for $150/pr.
I may very well wind up with two pair of these - my existing pair that I mod myself, and the one I buy from Philharmonic Audio!
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Dennis,
Is the tweeter the BC25 or the DX25? I believe you mentioned the DX25 on a different site. Or, have you changed to a different Vifa tweeter?
Either way, hope this works out as I would like to get a modified pair.
Thanks, John
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Dennis,
Is the tweeter the BC25 or the DX25? I believe you mentioned the DX25 on a different site. Or, have you changed to a different Vifa tweeter?
Either way, hope this works out as I would like to get a modified pair.
Thanks, John
I've used both models, but this one is the BC25.
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Thanks Dennis
I appreciate the info and your hard work.
Scott
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Thanks Dennis
I appreciate the info and your hard work.
Scott
Agreed!!!
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Dennis,
Will you publish the x-over schematics here or do we write to you individually?
Thanks.
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Here is a freq. resp. graph published in the Absolute Sound:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=90157)
Wayner
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I've used both models, but this one is the BC25.
Is there an appreciable difference between the two, other than retail price? Do both work well with either of the mods?
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Here is a freq. resp. graph published in the Absolute Sound:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=90157)
Wayner
I wish the Absolute Sound would publish frequency response plots. This one is from Stereophile, and shows considerable smoothing, plus it's averaged across a 30 degree listening window. Still, it's pretty consistent with the "good" plot I showed. Again, it's not the FR that prompted me to do the mod.
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Is there an appreciable difference between the two, other than retail price? Do both work well with either of the mods?
They differ in their low-end characteristics, although I haven't tried the DX25 with this speaker and can't say for sure how it would work. I did use it with the BS52, and ended up with some brightness at the low end, an indicatiion that it was being worked too hard. It would require extra components to fix that, and I didn't need them on the Vifa I'm using for the 22.
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They differ in their low-end characteristics, although I haven't tried the DX25 with this speaker and can't say for sure how it would work. I did use it with the BS52, and ended up with some brightness at the low end, an indicatiion that it was being worked too hard. It would require extra components to fix that, and I didn't need them on the Vifa I'm using for the 22.
OK, so the BS22 mod uses the Vifa BC25... and not the DX25. As mentioned by jmc207, you linked the DX25 over at AVS.
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Thanks Dennis
I appreciate the info and your hard work.
Scott
Agree with MLS. Thank you for all of your time and effort.
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OK, so the BS22 mod uses the Vifa BC25... and not the DX25. As mentioned by jmc207, you linked the DX25 over at AVS.
I guess I messed up. Go figure. They all look alike to me. Sorry about that.
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I guess I messed up. Go figure. They all look alike to me. Sorry about that.
Tweeter racist! :lol:
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I just hooked mine back up (and again had that holy crap moment when I started playing music through them) in a makeshift stereo/home theater set-up (miss mosh speakers, receiver, zip wire and the lot).
I could have quite the cheap set up with the Dennis mods up front and my originals as my surrounds. How about sell 3?
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I just received my monthly Stereophile magazine, and the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers won product of the year, voted on by the staff. Of course, that is the version "unmodified".
Wayner
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Just ordered the Vifa tweeters and two 4.0 caps. Going to do the small mod and eventually do the big one when more info available. ( Love modding speakers) As it stands I really like these speakers now hooked to my computer with a T-amp. so will see how it goes.
So let me see if I have this right. Clip one end of the .33 resistor, add the 4.0 cap inline with the tweets positive terminal and notch out on the box for one ear of the tweeter, right?
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Dennis Murphy,
What is the best way to get a hold of you to order a pair of the Pioneers?
Thanks
Ryan
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you can get ahold of Dennis Murphy at http://philharmonicaudio.com/
Frank Van Alstine
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I have a pair of the prototype Murphy BS22 modded speakers, coming tomorrow. I will give
them a shake-down, and also compare them to his modded Cambridge S30 speakers.
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I have a pair of the prototype Murphy BS22 modded speakers, coming tomorrow. I will give
them a shake-down, and also compare them to his modded Cambridge S30 speakers.
I just ordered the Vifa tweets and 2 caps from PE. I'll post again after I've modded 'em and cranked 'em up.
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ziegljo1,
Whats the pn at PE for the caps u ordered?
Thanks
Alex
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ziegljo1,
Whats the pn at PE for the caps u ordered?
Thanks
Alex
027-330
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ziegljo1,
Whats the pn at PE for the caps u ordered?
Thanks
Alex
Dennis did all the work himself on the modded Cambridge.
He is sending me the prototype BS22, for me to help evaluate them.
As far as crossover parts for the BS22 - contact him.
Thanks,
Jim Z
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I just received my monthly Stereophile magazine, and the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers won product of the year, voted on by the staff. Of course, that is the version "unmodified".
Wayner
Not quite. The KEF LS50 finished first in the budget component category, and also won overall product of 2013. The Pioneer 22 was an editors' choice. BTW, have you heard my mod for the
LS50? :)
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027-330
That's certainly the cheapest way to go. The cap I'm using is a poly (since Pioneer used a film cap in the tweeter circuit), and won't break the bank either: http://www.parts-express.com/audyn-cap-q4-39uf-400v-mkp-metalized-polypropylene-foil-crossover-capacitor--027-113
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I have a pair of the prototype Murphy BS22 modded speakers, coming tomorrow. I will give
them a shake-down, and also compare them to his modded Cambridge S30 speakers.
Thaty's kind of a funny comparison, since it's minly of academic interest--the S30 is being discontinued, and current units don't work well with my mod in any event. Do you happen to have any 22's lying around?
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The 4uf at PE, with pn 027-330 is a 4.0uF 100V Electrolytic Non-Polarized Crossover Capacitor.
Electrolytic?
Very inexpensive....why an electrolytic vs non - electrolytic??
Alex
Ooooops: Just saw Dennis post above for the 3.9 uf thats just a few bucks apiece, non - electrolytic.
A....
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Just ordered the Vifa tweeters and two 4.0 caps. Going to do the small mod and eventually do the big one when more info available. ( Love modding speakers) As it stands I really like these speakers now hooked to my computer with a T-amp. so will see how it goes.
So let me see if I have this right. Clip one end of the .33 resistor, add the 4.0 cap inline with the tweets positive terminal and notch out on the box for one ear of the tweeter, right?
That would be a 33 ohm resistor--it's clearly marked on the board, so I'm sure you won't mess up. And make sure that 4.0 cap comes after the crossover--don't put it before the crossover.
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That would be a 33 ohm resistor--it's clearly marked on the board, so I'm sure you won't mess up. And make sure that 4.0 cap comes after the crossover--don't put it before the crossover.
I doubt that there is any audible difference, but you certainly can't go wrong with the poly.
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Vifa BC25TG15-04 1" Silk Dome Tweeter
Out of stock at PE until 12/12....
Wow you guys are starting a stampede!!
lol
Alex
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Vifa BC25TG15-04 1" Silk Dome Tweeter
Out of stock at PE until 12/12....
Wow you guys are starting a stampede!!
lol
Alex
Ooops Glad I got my order in on Monday.
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Not quite. The KEF LS50 finished first in the budget component category, and also won overall product of 2013. The Pioneer 22 was an editors' choice. BTW, have you heard my mod for the
LS50? :)
The Pioneer was not in the budget category, rather the "Editor's Choices" category. What ever that means.
Wayner
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The Pioneer was not in the budget category, rather the "Editor's Choices" category. What ever that means.
Wayner
It's confusing. But they weren't product of the year, which was my main point. The KEF was (as well as budget product of the year).
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Thaty's kind of a funny comparison, since it's minly of academic interest--the S30 is being discontinued, and current units don't work well with my mod in any event. Do you happen to have any 22's lying around?
The modded BS22 and S30, is mainly to compare your work :) - plus there are still some S30's around.
However, I expect more interest to be in the BS22.
I have one pair of the stock BS22 lying around - however, most of the cheap screws are stripped - I will
compare them against the modded version.
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That would be a 33 ohm resistor--it's clearly marked on the board, so I'm sure you won't mess up. And make sure that 4.0 cap comes after the crossover--don't put it before the crossover.
Vlad,
For us noobs, if you don't mind, please post a picture of the board where the 33 ohm resistor is.
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Dennis,
Any chance you will mod a pioneer sp-c22 center speaker for multichannel music/ht?
Thanks
Ryan
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Vlad,
For us noobs, if you don't mind, please post a picture of the board where the 33 ohm resistor is.
See my post #497 on p.25
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Dennis,
Any chance you will mod a pioneer sp-c22 center speaker for multichannel music/ht?
Thanks
Ryan
I have a center channel coming tomorrow, and I'll also get Frank's 52's. My hope is to offer a modded version of all three. But I haven't heard the center, and the 52 is tricky to work with. So we'll have to see what comes of all this.
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I have a center channel coming tomorrow, and I'll also get Frank's 52's. My hope is to offer a modded version of all three. But I haven't heard the center, and the 52 is tricky to work with. So we'll have to see what comes of all this.
Hi Dennis,
I wonder if you can compare the crossovers of the center channel vs. the B22s? I read on this thread that the center channel with the B22 crossover in it sounds even better than the B22. So I wonder how far you can take the center channel to be used just for music (like the B22). upgraded xover, tweeter, etc. A pair of them might be the best bang for the buck :thumb:
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The Pioneer was not in the budget category, rather the "Editor's Choices" category. What ever that means.
Wayner
And Runner-Up for speaker of the year.
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Anybody try the Plast-i-Clay treatment on a pair of these yet?
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It's confusing. But they weren't product of the year, which was my main point. The KEF was (as well as budget product of the year).
Well, I've read page 79 several times and at the top of the page, it's in the "Products of the Year" and in it's category "Editor's Choice", I don't know what else they could mean. No, they are not THE product of the year, they are one of the "Products of the Year", along with 12 other products. Otherwise, I am confused and don't understand the damn magazine.
I have no idea why the editors of Stereophile would consider a $1500 set of speakers as "Budget Component" of the year either. But then, there is a 2 piece line stage preamp in the issue (Moon) that sells for $28,000. Could, or would a millionaire spend that much money on a preamp? That means he'd probably have to spend $100,000 on the complete system, which would be 10% of his wealth on the F'ing stereo.
Our little hobby is in deep trouble, as the NEW Music Direct catalog is out with many products in the "millionaire" category.
And, Dennis, no I haven't heard the LS50. I'm sure they image like a bastard, because of the point source, concentric drivers. I'm still more then happy with my Pioneers, Focal 706v and modified Dynaco A25XLs. No room for any other speakers.
Wayner
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Wayner,
I want your Dynaco's......
I will mod my 22's and trade you!!! (LOL)..
:D :D :D
Alex
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The BS22s are in the running for a group buy at Massdrop.com. Seven more votes needed to push it to the next level, 11 to put the BS22s in first place ahead of the Polk TSi200. Some interesting stuff shows up there every now and then at really good prices, though I have yet to be enticed into actually buying anything.
https://www.massdrop.com/vote/entry-level-passive-stereo-speakers
Unfortunately you have to signup in order to see the voting and deals they offer, but worth it in my opinion.
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The BS22s are in the running for a group buy at Massdrop.com. Seven more votes needed to push it to the next level, 11 to put the BS22s in first place ahead of the Polk TSi200. Some interesting stuff shows up there every now and then at really good prices, though I have yet to be enticed into actually buying anything.
https://www.massdrop.com/vote/entry-level-passive-stereo-speakers
Unfortunately you have to signup in order to see the voting and deals they offer, but worth it in my opinion.
Interesting site. Though with the Pioneers showing up on sale so frequently, I think I'd vote for something that we don't often see discounted. Music Hall speakers perhaps?
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Interesting site. Though with the Pioneers showing up on sale so frequently, I think I'd vote for something that we don't often see discounted. Music Hall speakers perhaps?
I hear you... though I wonder if we will see them discounted again with all the Stereophile hoopla :D
Personally, I voted for the Hsu HB-1 MKII speakers which I have been very curious about.
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Wayner,
I want your Dynaco's......
I will mod my 22's and trade you!!! (LOL)..
:D :D :D
Alex
There is an original pair sitting on the shelf in the other room.....
But that's my replacement speakers.
:lol:
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See my post #497 on p.25
Got it. Thanks Charmerci.
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Wayner!!!
WHAT!!!
You have 2 pairs of Dynacos!!
There ought to be a law!!!
Ok my 22's modded, a case of beer, one bottle of scotch, and a gift certificate to McDonalds not to exceed $25.
I wish I lived closer to you then I could just borrow a set....
LOL
Alex
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Well, I've read page 79 several times and at the top of the page, it's in the "Products of the Year" and in it's category "Editor's Choice", I don't know what else they could mean. No, they are not THE product of the year, they are one of the "Products of the Year", along with 12 other products. Otherwise, I am confused and don't understand the damn magazine.
I have no idea why the editors of Stereophile would consider a $1500 set of speakers as "Budget Component" of the year either. But then, there is a 2 piece line stage preamp in the issue (Moon) that sells for $28,000. Could, or would a millionaire spend that much money on a preamp? That means he'd probably have to spend $100,000 on the complete system, which would be 10% of his wealth on the F'ing stereo.
Our little hobby is in deep trouble, as the NEW Music Direct catalog is out with many products in the "millionaire" category.
And, Dennis, no I haven't heard the LS50. I'm sure they image like a bastard, because of the point source, concentric drivers. I'm still more then happy with my Pioneers, Focal 706v and modified Dynaco A25XLs. No room for any other speakers.
Wayner
I don't really know what they won--why is the "editors' choice" a special category? I find their awards about as clear and meaningful as their reviews. The only reason I keep my subscription going is to
read JA's measurements and see what the big boys are introducing.
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I don't really know what they won--why is the "editors' choice" a special category? I find their awards about as clear and meaningful as their reviews. The only reason I keep my subscription going is to
read JA's measurements and see what the big boys are introducing.
I know. I feel that as part of the audio industry, I should keep up with what is new, but every issue I get, the equipment gets more and more "out of this world", price wise. That's why (even tho I maybe gave you a little hard line), I'm glad you are working on something everyone can afford.
I am really concerned about the direction of audio. It's going to go over a cliff. I understand that components have gotten pricy, but who is buying $28,000 preamps?
I give up.
Wayner
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I am really concerned about the direction of audio. It's going to go over a cliff. I understand that components have gotten pricy, but who is buying $28,000 preamps?
Wayner
Not you. Not Frank. Not me. A $28,000 car is pushing it.
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It's because there are fewer and fewer folks who have a moderate to large amount of disposable income, it's either appeal to folks where the price tag just doesn't matter or offer people superior value for the money and a lower overall price. While there are a lot less people buying mid-market luxury goods in general, those who do tend to be more value oriented than they have in the past. Since the middle class seems to be disappearing, it's no big surprise that the market for goods that tend to be bought by people in the middle class is also disappearing. Younger generations just don't have the kind of money the baby boomers do.
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Anybody try the Plast-i-Clay treatment on a pair of these yet?
Yeah, I did. If you go through this thread, you'll see. I like 'em much better because I often listen to them loud and my hearing is very sensitive. If you never crank them up loud!, there's no reason to.
I put 2.5 lbs each. (I'd do 3 each next time.) Frank VA says changing the internal volume will affect the sound but I think they sound better with tighter bass, less harsh highs and mids.
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Got the parts and started the mod. First step, remove the drivers and crossover. No problem whatsoever with the woofers and crossovers however each tweeter has a stripped out allen head and I can't remove them! One screw on each tweeter!
Came to a screeching halt until I figure out what to do. Unbelievable!
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Hi Vlad,
You can drill a hole in the center of each screw and insert a screw extractor. You can get those pretty cheap at Harbor Freight tools.
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Got the parts and started the mod. First step, remove the drivers and crossover. No problem whatsoever with the woofers and crossovers however each tweeter has a stripped out allen head and I can't remove them! One screw on each tweeter!
Welcome to the real world of Pioneer cost control - I had the same trouble with both
the BS22 and FS52.
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Got the parts and started the mod. First step, remove the drivers and crossover. No problem whatsoever with the woofers and crossovers however each tweeter has a stripped out allen head and I can't remove them! One screw on each tweeter!
Came to a screeching halt until I figure out what to do. Unbelievable!
Backing it out as suggested is the best way, but if that doesn't work you can try this.
Use a drill bit slightly larger than the screw shaft and drill straight down the center of the screw, the head will pop off when your bit get past the back of it. This will allow you to remove the tweeter, of course the rest of the screw will still be in the wood. If the screw is sticking up a bit "the thickness of the tweeter" you can try to grab it with vise grips or pliers and back it out. Or if it sticks out the back of the wood inside you can reach in and do the same thing. Worst case you could turn the new speaker and use a new location for the screws.
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Got the parts and started the mod. First step, remove the drivers and crossover. No problem whatsoever with the woofers and crossovers however each tweeter has a stripped out allen head and I can't remove them! One screw on each tweeter!
Came to a screeching halt until I figure out what to do. Unbelievable!
Which mod is this? You shouldn't have to remove the woofer for the simple one. As for the tweeter screws, I feel your pain. Literally. In a burst of angerand frustration, I tried to pry one of the tweeters out. They're very sharp when they splinter. Fortunately, I had a new box of bandaids (now half empty).
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I have a center channel coming tomorrow, and I'll also get Frank's 52's. My hope is to offer a modded version of all three. But I haven't heard the center, and the 52 is tricky to work with. So we'll have to see what comes of all this.
Is it going to be the exact same mod as my pair?
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Is it going to be the exact same mod as my pair?
No--that used a different Vifa tweeter. The tweet I'm using avoids the brightness problem I was having with your tweeter at the low end.
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I suspect that those that are trying to remove the speakers from the cabinets are using US version allen wrenches, which would be wrong. The drivers are 2.5mm allen size. My 2.5 fits perfectly and all of the screws came lose with no problem.
If you think you have stripped out the wood screw threads, buy some extra 2.5mm allen wrenches, and apply some 5 minute epoxy to the end that you insert into the allen headed wood screw, let it dry and then pull out as you turn the screw counter-clockwise.
Or better yet, use some super glue on the allen wrench and when you have the screw out, put the glued allen wrench/screw above a flame and it will "un-bond" the super glue, so you can use the screw (and wrench) again.
Wayner
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My 3/32" allen wrench (2.38mm) was too small with a sloppy fit and the 7/64" (2.78mm) was too large to fit.
Not having a 2.5mm in my metric set, I went down to the Ace Hardware and was fortunately able to buy a single 2.5mm from the individual parts drawers, as to my surprise, the metric sets they sold had 2.0mm and 3.0mm sizes, but skipped over and did not contain the 2.5mm size.
Steve
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No--that used a different Vifa tweeter. The tweet I'm using avoids the brightness problem I was having with your tweeter at the low end.
That's good.
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Or better yet, use some super glue on the allen wrench and when you have the screw out, put the glued allen wrench/screw above a flame and it will "un-bond" the super glue, so you can use the screw (and wrench) again.
Wayner
Acetone will also work eliminating super glues bond. Use paint remover to dissolve cross-linked epoxy.
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There you go!
Wayner
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I received the prototype modded BS22 speaker today - so far the sound is interesting.
One thing to note - they are less sensitive than the stock version.
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Thanks to everyone for the tips. Not sure if I used the 2.5 initially as I have multiple sets here. Probably started with the SAE set in a rush and hence got myself in this predicament. After posting above, drove all around town and finally found a bolt extraction kit with multiple sizes at an auto parts store and tried the smallest size. Even using oil the bit snapped. Kit is junk! This was before I read about the superglue trick here and the particular screw is a no go for this.
This is embarrassing and sad. Embarrassing cause I consider myself fairly adept at doing these things but got in a rush. Sad because I am in a great position to eval the mod as I have been listening to these speakers every single day for months and would immediately know any difference.
I contacted my Guitar tech to hopefully get these tweeters out. He is very busy but has the Ultimate Set Of Tools, lol.
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Get 10 for $4.95....
http://www.amazon.com/Amico-2-5mm-Length-Magnetic-Screwdriver/dp/B008G37GAK
Alex
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Hi Vlad,
I think you'll have to drill out the screw completely now. Then fill the large hole with a glued wood dowel, trim flush with a chisel and drill a new hole for the new screw once the new tweeter is in...or just rotate the tweeter and drill all new holes as mentioned above.
Best of luck!
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Thanks to everyone for the tips. Not sure if I used the 2.5 initially as I have multiple sets here. Probably started with the SAE set in a rush and hence got myself in this predicament. After posting above, drove all around town and finally found a bolt extraction kit with multiple sizes at an auto parts store and tried the smallest size. Even using oil the bit snapped. Kit is junk! This was before I read about the superglue trick here and the particular screw is a no go for this.
This is embarrassing and sad. Embarrassing cause I consider myself fairly adept at doing these things but got in a rush. Sad because I am in a great position to eval the mod as I have been listening to these speakers every single day for months and would immediately know any difference.
I contacted my Guitar tech to hopefully get these tweeters out. He is very busy but has the Ultimate Set Of Tools, lol.
This is going well. I'm still not sure which mod you're doing. If it's the easy one, you could leave the first speaker as is and mod the other one using the right tool. Then you could compare them and see whether you want to bother with the other wounded one. If not, it's easy to undo the mod, and I would take the Vifa tweeters off your hands so you wouldn't be out that cost.
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I'm having second thughts about people tearing into their own speakers. I really meant this mod as something I would do on new speakers and offer at a bargain price.
Things can happen when you monkey around with speakers in the field, as we've seen. If you do insist on trying the simple mod, just add the 3.9 or 4.0 uf cap. Don't fool around
with the stock circuity board--leave the 33 ohm resistor as is. I think it will be bright enough as is without changing anything on the board that could be difficult for you to restore.
Thanks.
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Things can happen when you monkey around with speakers in the field, as we've seen.
Yea...they might learn something and even improve the quality of music they're hearing. *GASP* :wink:
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I'm having second thughts about people tearing into their own speakers. I really meant this mod as something I would do on new speakers and offer at a bargain price.
Things can happen when you monkey around with speakers in the field, as we've seen. If you do insist on trying the simple mod, just add the 3.9 or 4.0 uf cap. Don't fool around
with the stock circuity board--leave the 33 ohm resistor as is. I think it will be bright enough as is without changing anything on the board that could be difficult for you to restore.
Thanks.
No problem man. Just some bad luck on my end coupled with being in a rush. Don't sweat it. Yesterday was one of those days for me. Worked a stretch of nightshifts and off the weekend. Should have waited a day until my head cleared up but really excited about trying this. As stated before, I have listened to these speakers extensively
Drilled out the screws easy-peazy. Going to damp up the cabinets and check these out.
Could you answer a quick question for me? these is a big glob of glue covering where the tweeter wires go into the board and I can't make out the markings. ( If there are any.) No polarity markings on back of tweeter either. Positive wire is black/white stripe with larger spade?
I am doing the easy mod. As far as replacing the resistor, that would be no problem. Recapped a few 70's speakers past couple years.
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No problem man. Just some bad luck on my end coupled with being in a rush. Don't sweat it. Yesterday was one of those days for me. Worked a stretch of nightshifts and off the weekend. Should have waited a day until my head cleared up but really excited about trying this. As stated before, I have listened to these speakers extensively
Drilled out the screws easy-peazy. Going to damp up the cabinets and check these out.
Could you answer a quick question for me? these is a big glob of glue covering where the tweeter wires go into the board and I can't make out the markings. ( If there are any.) No polarity markings on back of tweeter either. Positive wire is black/white stripe with larger spade?
I am doing the easy mod. As far as replacing the resistor, that would be no problem. Recapped a few 70's speakers past couple years.
The tweeter positve has the stripe, and it terminates with the largest terminal. I wouldn't clip the resistor. I'm finding that a little bright, and it measures brighter than my simulations indicated. There may be
some side effects from clipping that resistor due to the layout of the printed circuit board.
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The tweeter positve has the stripe, and it terminates with the largest terminal. I wouldn't clip the resistor. I'm finding that a little bright, and it measures brighter than my simulations indicated. There may be
some side effects from clipping that resistor due to the layout of the printed circuit board.
Thanks for the info. I was pretty sure but wanted to double check.
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I have been playing with the prototype modded Pioneer BS22 speaker, modified by Dennis
Murphy. He has replaced the stock tweeter with a Vifa tweeter, and modified the crossover
to give what I call near flatbread measurements. > I have also compared it to the stock
version which I still liked and sounds good to me, based on the price. The one thing about
the BS22 speaker that stood out, was good bass from the small woofer, decent midrange
and decent highs for the price - with nice detail for music and movies. The tweeter was
nice for the price and had a somewhat artificial vividness/shine, which some would call a
zing - however, it was not really irritating to me. I have always liked the BS22 better than
the towers for music. The one thing I have desired from the BS22 was better detail and
definition. I have tested this mod speaker with both music and movies, to find out if it is
the real deal and a step up from the stock version. The main music was >>>
Chris Botti with
Sy Smith - The Look of love
Lucia Micarelli - Emmanual
Sting and Josh Groban - Shape of My Heart
Willie Nelson, Wynton Marsalis and Nora Jones
Hit the Road Jack
Come Rain or Shine
Jackie Evancho
Angel
The Lords Prayer
O Holy Night
Diana Krall
You Are My Thrill
Micah Stampley
Overcome
Worthy
Chris Tomlin
Whom Shall I Fear (God of Angels Armies)
However, the speakers can handle other forms of music such as >Rock, R&B, Hip Hop, Heavy
Metal, Dance/Electronica - with the benefit of a subwoofer > they can take some power. Now
extreme head-bangers will want a bigger speaker.
The BS22-mod, tends to remind me of the NHT signature sound > more along the lines of the
Classic Two speaker - the mod is better than the NHT SuperZero. One thing to note, this speaker
is less sensitive than the stock version.
The modified BS22 is neutral, clean/clear, balanced and natural sounding - it is neither forward
or laid back. It has good detail without needing the aid of a mushroom at 1khz, or a rising treble
in the higher octaves. The Vifa tweeter is smooth and detailed. Male and Female voices are more
realistic and clean sounding - instruments are more natural sounding - piano, harmonica, trumpet,
saxophone and guitar, all sound good with no edgy or sharp sound. Also, the violin sounds realistic
with no edgyness. Drums and cymbals also sound more realistic and natural.
The bass even sounds better with less resonance - and I believe partly due to Dennis putting some
SonicBarrier damping, in the bottom half of the speaker. The main reason may have been to help
hold the crossover in place >> however I believe it helped, as the bass sounds more clean and less
boomy.
Now how does the stock compare to the modified BS22? Even with the vividness/shine on the treble
The BS22 is somewhat closed in, somewhat dull - lacking in detail (extension of certain notes). The
imaging is a little weak compared to the mod 22 - and the speaker is somewhat boomy in the bass.
Now as nice as the mod version is - some people who do not have a critical ear, may or may not like
the modded version - due to the vividness of the stock 22 treble. And there are some who do have a
good ear, that may still prefer the treble rise. It is a matter of preference and taste.
Now how about movie sound tracks - the speaker was tested with > Man of Steel and Star Trek Into
Darkness - fullrange without a subwoofer. If a speaker is going to be used as surrounds, then it
needs to be able to handle the front as well. It did good and did not burp - and for its size, it has
decent dynamics, the sound was clean, clear and open - it can get loud and has some decent bass,
and does have some punch. For one on a tight budget - this is a good starter system for the fronts.
Dennis is suppose to be checking out the center channel.
I believe the BS22-mod speakers while not in the same league with $500 to $1000 speakers - will still
be tough to beat from $350 on down.
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I agree with your evaluation.
Frank Van Alstine
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I have never done a review of a speaker before so please bear with me. Going to keep this short.
Ok. I completed the easy mod last evening. First on one speaker and hooked them both up. Noticed quite an improvement and immediately performed the operation on the other speaker.
I use the Pioneer BS22's with my computer audio setup. Not a hifi system by any stretch but it sounds really great. The BS22's are powered by a Dayton DTA-100a class-T amp right out of my sound card. (HT-Omega Striker 7.1) L/R outputs to the amp and sub output to a DIY ported sub using a Tangband W8-740p and a Dayton 125w amp. the BS22's are on some short stands on my desk on either side of my monitor. Tweeters are slightly above ear level and each speaker about 2' away in the nearfield.
For the mods used the recommended Vifa tweeters and dayton caps, PE Part# 027-421. Damped the cabs with a dynamat type ( Fatmat) buytyl treatment and open cell foam all around.
I have listened to this setup everyday for months using Itunes. Both purchased music and CD's uploaded into my library. I can say hands down this mod is a significant upgrade to these speakers. Clarity and detail is enhanced and the distortion and blurring with higher volumes is gone. Tom tom rolls and acoustic and electric guitars sound much improved with better separation and clarity. I have been plowing though my collection and developing a new appreciation for quite a few tracks that I never listened to much before.
Last evening I was cranking Shania Twain ( Not a country fan by any means ) and noticed my Wife off to the side talking to me, actually her lips were moving but I couldn't hear anything she was saying. Never before listened at these volumes with this setup and it sounds gorgeous. I went to bed with my ears ringing. Lol.
With all of the above I can say these speakers are not totally flat ( I don't think they were before either) but the reduction in distortion and sibilance with the tweeters is a beautiful thing. Turned some very good speakers into great speakers!
Thank you so much Dennis for sharing this. I don't have alot of money to dump into equipment and I truly appreciate your efforts here sir.
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Dennis,
I have the FS52 towers and C22 also in my TV setup. If you come up with mods for these I will be all over them!
Also, regarding your full mod. Do you have plans for these or are they offered exclusively with purchase of completed speakers?
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Thanks to everyone for taking the time and, for poor Vlad, the considerable trouble) to give these mods a test drive. As I've stated before, I think Andrew did the best that could be done with the tweeter that he was given, and the whole undertaking has been a boon to audiophiles on a budget. I love to tinker, and when I fired up a pair of the stock 22's, I knew they had greater potential once I discovered that the deficiencies were due pretty much entirely to the tweeter. To answer some questions and comments. First, I don't recommend that anyone try the full blown mod at home. By the time you pay full retail for the parts plus shipping, and burn up over a day rebuilding and wiring up the crossover, and trouble shoot your mistakes, you'll begin to think the stock speaker was a really great bargain. I'll have to think about whether it makes sense for owners to send back the crossover for me to modify--I kind of think it would be too much of an operation at this point. Second, the mod Vlad did is quite simple and inexpensive, but as he notes, don't expect dead flat frequency response. You'll just get a better tweeter with more clarrity at the low end and less zip at the top. And you'll also completely void the Pioneer warranty. I hope to finish up mod for the center channel over the next couple of days. ( I was a little disappointed to discover that the center channel is tuned significantly higher than the 22's, due to the cabinet volume being less than twice that of the single-woofer 22. So I think that will have to be used strictly as a center rather than a bargain MTM main.)
I've fooled around with Frank's B52's, but they're a bear to work with, thanks to the complex interactions in the 2.5 woofer design. My attempts to just splice the new tweeter onto the existing woofer crossover have been a dismal failure so far, but I'll keep working at it.
Special thanks to Zieg for the extenive comments. I would only emphasize that he was comparing the modded 22's with my mod for the Cambridge, not the stock Cambridge. I just don't know how the new 22 would compare with the stock Cambridge. Probably the former would have a little smoother treble, but with less bass punch and extension, but I haven't performed the experiment. The S30 is being discontinued, and later production runs don't work well with my mod. I'll be offering the 22's and center modded speakers as an addition to the Philharmonic line, and will get that posted on my site over the next week.
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Special thanks to Zieg for the extenive comments. I would only emphasize that he was comparing the modded 22's with my mod for the Cambridge, not the stock Cambridge. I just don't know how the new 22 would compare with the stock Cambridge. Probably the former would have a little smoother treble, but with less bass punch and extension, but I haven't performed the experiment. The S30 is being discontinued, and later production runs don't work well with my mod. I'll be offering the 22's and center modded speakers
I did not put that section of the review over here - however for the 1 or 2 who may be interested, here it is >
Now MurphyBlaster also modded the Cambridge S30 speaker which I own. He also modded the crossover
for the near flatbread measurements. Now how do these 2 compare? >> Well since this is a Throwdown
and I am a Audio Nut, I have compared them > The Cambridge S30 does have a good woofer and a decent
tweeter. The modded Pio has a decent woofer and a new tweeter. The Cambridge has a decent built cabinet
and is cross-braced with good foam dampening. The Pioneer while nice for the price, has a weaker cabinet
and no cross-bracing and the modded version has the small amount of stock poly-batten and some Sonic-
Barrier. The Cambridge had a list price of $259 a pair and former street price of $219 a pair.
They are close - however not quite the same even with the good modded measurements. The S30 has more of
a live presentation to me with better imaging and soundstage presentation. The S30 sounds more rich to me
with a little better midrange detail (inner detail and nuances) > There tends to be a little more definition and
sense of depth - Things like the violin and guitar tend to vibrate more. The S30 also goes a little deeper in the
bass, and is more tight and controlled. However, both speakers are good with the human voice. I will say in some
areas that the mod tweeter will sound slightly more smooth than the stock S30 tweeter. I believe the mod tweeter
is better than the stock Pio woofer. Dennis believes that the S30 woofer is better than the S30 tweeter. For me it
is the cohesiveness of the S30 modded speaker as a whole. However I will not say that the S30 is a hands down
better speaker. The BS22-mod speaker is a good one - and based on the cost and what you get for the price, is a
better deal.
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Thanks to admin for restoring this valuable thread. Hopefully everyone can stay on track from now on. And thanks to Dennis for all his valuable and sensible advice.
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Thank you, Dennis, for your hard work! I'll respect your wishes and wait for the fully upgraded speakers to be offered for sale. Please keep us informed of when that might be.
Bummer about the center channel. Seemed like a lot of potential there.
Thanks again!
ER
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Thank you, Dennis, for your hard work! I'll respect your wishes and wait for the fully upgraded speakers to be offered for sale. Please keep us informed of when that might be.
Bummer about the center channel. Seemed like a lot of potential there.
Thanks again!
ER
You're most welcome--I PM'd you.
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I gots me some modded speaks a comin'!!!
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I gots me some modded speaks a comin'!!!
I heard about that - get your ears ready.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=90699)
I moved some equipment around. Put this system together and the Pioneers sound pretty good. They image very well and have an eerily deep soundstage.
I just spent some quality time with this set up. I pulled out a tape measure and aligned the speakers, swapped out some amprex tubes for some tele-fu-kens and WOW! Talk about hitting way above their price point. These little (stock) Pioneers sound great with some modest gear behind them. I think I hit a synergy home run.
Maybe I should mod them :o
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I moved some equipment around. Put this system together and the Pioneers sound pretty good. They image very well and have an eerily deep soundstage.
I just spent some quality time with this set up. I pulled out a tape measure and aligned the speakers, swapped out some amprex tubes for some tele-fu-kens and WOW! Talk about hitting way above their price point. These little (stock) Pioneers sound great with some modest gear behind them. I think I hit a synergy home run.
Maybe I should mod them :o
Looks like some good stuff. Can you list the gear you are using with the Pioneers?
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Well, after listening to these modded speakers for a week I can definitely say they are an upgrade. The Frequency response is sloping somewhat downward maybe 1-2 db however I did a quick and dirty fix using my Android phone and the graphic EQ on my sound card. Its pretty flat now and sounds simply gorgeous. ( Thinking a swap of resistor for a lower value would solve this.)
Remembered I had an Indeed Class T amp that I swapped out for the Dayton DTA-100a a couple months ago because I mistakenly thought the sibilance issues were a lack of power. The Indeed amp is half the wattage but sounds far better than the Dayton. Actually it sounds better than any amp I have ever heard.
Dennis, if you have anything in the way of a easy mod for the C22 or the tower, please post. I plan to pick up on of your B22 speakers when I get the cash as well. Once again, I appreciate and THANK YOU for your efforts.
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I have seen the measurements that Dennis did on the modded Pioneer C22 center,
they look good for center channel measurements - he says they may sound a little
better than the modded BS22.
For one on a tight budget, the modded Pioneer BS22 and C22 DNA speakers can/will
make a nice surround system - all one needs to do is buy a subwoofer.
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Looks like some good stuff. Can you list the gear you are using with the Pioneers?
Sure,
Stock Squeeze Box Touch-Blue Jeans Coax-Jolida FX tube DAC w/ Telefunken 12au7's-MIT S3 interconnects-Musical Fidelity A 308 w/ Mundorf Caps-MIT S3 Speaker interface-Stock Pioneer SP-BS22-LR's
Sounds pretty good to my ears. I know it can be better, but I bet it would take many times the $77 I paid for the Pioneers.
My main speakers are highly modified Polk Audio SDA 2B TL's which are a whole nother animal. I would like to try them in this room but I will need someone to help me carry them up 2 flights of stairs.
Scott
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I moved some equipment around. Put this system together and the Pioneers sound pretty good. They image very well and have an eerily deep soundstage.
I just spent some quality time with this set up. I pulled out a tape measure and aligned the speakers, swapped out some amprex tubes for some tele-fu-kens and WOW! Talk about hitting way above their price point. These little (stock) Pioneers sound great with some modest gear behind them. I think I hit a synergy home run.
Maybe I should mod them :o
I do so miss that which you said about the imaging and soundstage (depth). I just moved my Tekton Lore's to a long wall which made them very happy and me too, but they still don't image like these Pioneers did. If I could just meld the two speakers best qualities right?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=90806)
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So Amazon has the FS52 on sale for $60 each.
Too bad it wasn't easier for Dennis to implement the new tweeter... since these are a steal right now. Then again, probably even a steal with the stock tweeter.
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So Amazon has the FS52 on sale for $60 each.
It is gone now
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-FS52-LR-Designed-standing-Loudspeaker/dp/B008NCD2S4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386190248&sr=8-1&keywords=pioneer+fs52
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Yeah that deal didn't last long.
Still, got a pair for my Dad - he's been waiting for a sale on them, and I don't think I've ever seen them less than $80 each, so at $60 each I had to get them for him.
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I suspect that those that are trying to remove the speakers from the cabinets are using US version allen wrenches, which would be wrong. The drivers are 2.5mm allen size. My 2.5 fits perfectly and all of the screws came lose with no problem.
If you think you have stripped out the wood screw threads, buy some extra 2.5mm allen wrenches, and apply some 5 minute epoxy to the end that you insert into the allen headed wood screw, let it dry and then pull out as you turn the screw counter-clockwise.
Or better yet, use some super glue on the allen wrench and when you have the screw out, put the glued allen wrench/screw above a flame and it will "un-bond" the super glue, so you can use the screw (and wrench) again.
Wayner
One more advice, choose good quality wrenches, I had the same problem using the US version allen wrenches, the first two screw went fine but the next one the wrench came loose as if the screw were damaged, after reading the post I got the right size (2,5 mm) and was the same, to screws and got loose again. I used a magnifier to see the end of the wrench and screw head and find that the screw was ok but the wrench tip was teared, there was no sharp edges, them I got another one but this time not a cheap Chinese set, I got one that was chrome vanadium made and this time worked fine for all the screws. It seams Chinese allen screws don't take Chinese wrenches :lol:
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I just checked my screws for size and all my Allen sets did not play well with the installed screws. For any one reading this I bought some "screw-grip " from the Bowman Co. I believe in 1991. One drop of it in the head of the Allen or any screw for that matter, will have the screw out, no problem. If I can find a link I will post it up.
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With the Vifa BC25TG15-04 out of stock, can the shielded version be used: http://www.parts-express.com/vifa-bc25sg15-04-1-shielded-dome-tweeter--264-1026 (http://www.parts-express.com/vifa-bc25sg15-04-1-shielded-dome-tweeter--264-1026) ?
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Someone just asked about buying my Lore's which got me thinking about my Pioneers again. These woukd become my speakers for awhile. Would just coating the interior of the cabinet (and frame of woofer and maybe tweeter) in plasticlay help significantly?
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Someone just asked about buying my Lore's which got me thinking about my Pioneers again. These woukd become my speakers for awhile. Would just coating the interior of the cabinet (and frame of woofer and maybe tweeter) in plasticlay help significantly?
Yes it does, I did it for the towers and got very good results, but I used a bitumen sheet instead, plasticlay would be a looot of work in the towers. Cut the sheets in small patches so they pass trough drivers hole, use a micro torch to melt (just a Little) one side and then cover the interior sheet by sheet, of course there will be some spots you cannot reach but most of the cabinet will be covered.
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Someone just asked about buying my Lore's which got me thinking about my Pioneers again. These woukd become my speakers for awhile. Would just coating the interior of the cabinet (and frame of woofer and maybe tweeter) in plasticlay help significantly?
I did. If you listen to loud music, I think it makes a big difference. (Low levels not much, if at all.) You'll need about 7 pounds for both - if you coat them with about a half inch coat all around.
Frank Van Alstine says this will change the inner dynamics/design of the speakers. I personally prefer it. Gets rid of lower mid-range resonance and the highs are clearer and the bass is more punchy, imo.
Put a bit of wax on the screws when reinserting them - it's difficult. (Other suggestions are somewhere in this thread. I think my initial post about doing this is, is on about page 10 of this thread.)
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Thanks. I may even go with the bitumen route even for the bookshelves because I am a bit lazy. Or maybe a mix of both where I can get them in. I doubt I'll let the Lore's go, but you never know. I now wish I bought a better amp and waited to buy speakers for the amp that I loved.
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For those who may be interested - the modded Pioneer speakers are now online.
http://philharmonicaudio.com/folio-me/html/Phil%20Pages/AALS.html
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Thanks. I may even go with the bitumen route..
Okay you guys - you're at it again. Sending me deep down into the black hole of "what the heck is that - internet - hyperlinks - I'm fa-a-a-a-a-lling again.."
Bitumen. My first thought was "That's COAL!" I remember that from HS science. I thought I'd better stop after this website:
http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Commercial/Products/Modified_Bitumen_Roofing/Self_Adhered
I figured - 'well, I'll throw it out there and see what that stirs up'
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For those who may be interested - the modded Pioneer speakers are now online.
http://philharmonicaudio.com/folio-me/html/Phil%20Pages/AALS.html
Okay, there's my center and r/l mains. Move the self-modded ones to surround.
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For those who may be interested - the modded Pioneer speakers are now online.
http://philharmonicaudio.com/folio-me/html/Phil%20Pages/AALS.html (http://philharmonicaudio.com/folio-me/html/Phil%20Pages/AALS.html)
Uh oh. Looks like Dennis is going to get very busy doing these for a good chunk of his time.
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Am I crazy, or did Dennis comment that the modded C22 would not make a great main speaker due to the cabinet tuning? I thought he did, but can't find that comment.
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Am I crazy, or did Dennis comment that the modded C22 would not make a great main speaker due to the cabinet tuning? I thought he did, but can't find that comment.
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I hope to finish up mod for the center channel over the next couple of days. ( I was a little disappointed to discover that the center channel is tuned significantly higher than the 22's, due to the cabinet volume being less than twice that of the single-woofer 22. So I think that will have to be used strictly as a center rather than a bargain MTM main.)
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Nice, thanks.
Guess I just skipped right over it.
It will be interesting to see what Dennis can do with the towers, and if he ends up offering a modded version of those as well.
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Thanks. I may even go with the bitumen route even for the bookshelves because I am a bit lazy. Or maybe a mix of both where I can get them in. I doubt I'll let the Lore's go, but you never know. I now wish I bought a better amp and waited to buy speakers for the amp that I loved.
For those thinking in using bitumen sheets, I am not an expert but I have some advices. I read about using bitumen in several places and although never made any measurements in my pioneers, my impression is it got better than before, how much? Before, in moderate to high levels, the speakers sounded "crowded" as when you are in a room with many people speaking at the same time. It was difficult to identify all the elements in the music, now it sounds "quiet" its not perfect yet, but the sound is more clear an I think stereo image its better too.
About bitumen, Its a 3mm thick sheet covered with polyethylene plastic film in both sides, you can use a basic one, there is no need to use a very expensive type. I made some tests beforehand and found the ease way was to remove the plastic film on one side (the side which will make contact to speaker wall) them heat this side until the sheet became soft but hard enough to handle with one hand, this will make the sheet adhere evenly on the cabinet wall, the heat will soften the sheet and make it more adhesive. You can use a mini torch (http://www.ebay.com/bhp/mini-butane-torch) to soft the sheet. To remove the plastic film in one side the better way is to use the torch from a distance on the sheet to heat the plastic ( be careful to not melt) and then remove by puling it from one edge, it will come of easily, the other way its just melt the plastic with the torch but I found difficult to control how much time to apply the flame, some times was too little and other times I made a hole all the way trough the sheet.
Of course the self adhesive type would not require the heating process, unless you find difficult to fold the sheet and make it adhere evenly on cabinet wall, in my cabinet there was some glue fillets on the walls.
Bitumen sheet have the advantage of being ease to control the thickness of the layers (in 3mm increment) and fine tune to one personal taste, in the other hand it is a very dirty business, I had this sticky black thing in all my fingers and had a table cloth destroyed in the process. Plastclay is much ease to use.
Pioneers cabinet is very tight and the drivers hole does not allow to put both hands inside and have sharp edges (remember to put some plstic tape on it) which make handling an adhesive sheet of bitumen very tricky, be prepared to spend a whole day on this job (for the towers).
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Hey all, my name is Mike and I am new to the forums and to home audio; I have some experience in the car audio world.
I just got a pair of the spbs22's and am going to place them on a laminated particle board desk at ear level. The surface is fairly hard and slippery which is causing some vibrations and resonance. Would you guys recommend coupling them to the desk using either rubber pads, spikes, or blu-tac? Any recommendations are greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
-Mike
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I just got a pair of the spbs22's and am going to place them on a laminated particle board desk at ear level. The surface is fairly hard and slippery which is causing some vibrations and resonance. Would you guys recommend coupling them to the desk using either rubber pads, spikes, or blu-tac? Any recommendations are greatly appreciated. Thank you. Mike
Rubber bumper feet, or Blu-tac will be fine.
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I wouldn't think the Pioneers are tapped for spikes (or are they?) so +1 on the above post.
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Hey all, my name is Mike and I am new to the forums and to home audio; I have some experience in the car audio world.
I just got a pair of the spbs22's and am going to place them on a laminated particle board desk at ear level. The surface is fairly hard and slippery which is causing some vibrations and resonance. Would you guys recommend coupling them to the desk using either rubber pads, spikes, or blu-tac? Any recommendations are greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
-Mike
Hi Mike,
Welcome to AC! A great community of folks here who are very knowledgeable and helpful.
As for your question, you might also want to look into something like the foam speaker stands made by Auralex. Their SubDude is also great for subwoofers.
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Thank you all for the recommendations. Also, have any of you added extra polyfill or even dynamat to the inner walls?
-Mike
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In my rectangular room, Cardas dimensions worked better than 1/3rds.
Jeff
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If you are thinking about getting the Pioneer 22 speakers, by all means get the upgraded versions by Dennis Murphy. His are $150 a pair and include new tweeters and much improved crossovers. His work turns these from surprisingly good but flawed little speakers (rough and hot high end) into astonishingly good and $1000 a pair class little monitors.
Dennis's work is day and night more important than your choice of speaker wires, spikes, speaker terminals, internal cabinet damping or any other mostly marginal audiophile tweaks you could do to them. Dennis's work is simply great acoustical engineering and design work, not foo foo dust.
The only drawback to these speakers is that they are not very efficient so not a good match for 10W class D switching amps, although I don't know what is.
You can find them at Philharmonicaudio.com. Scroll down on the home page.
Frank Van Alstine
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If you are thinking about getting the Pioneer 22 speakers, by all means get the upgraded versions by Dennis Murphy. His are $150 a pair and include new tweeters and much improved crossovers. His work turns these from surprisingly good but flawed little speakers (rough and hot high end) into astonishingly good and $1000 a pair class little monitors.
Dennis's work is day and night more important than your choice of speaker wires, spikes, speaker terminals, internal cabinet damping or any other mostly marginal audiophile tweaks you could do to them. Dennis's work is simply great acoustical engineering and design work, not foo foo dust.
The only drawback to these speakers is that they are not very efficient so not a good match for 10W class D switching amps, although I don't know what is.
You can find them at Philharmonicaudio.com. Scroll down on the home page.
Frank Van Alstine
Dennis says that he won't be able to get any pairs out until PE gets more of the tweeters in. So (I'd imagine) that most people won't be able to get any pairs until Feb. at least.
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You can find them at Philharmonicaudio.com. Scroll down on the home page
This is the up-dated link
http://philharmonicaudio.com/folio-me/html/Phil%20Pages/AALS.html
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Dennis's work is day and night more important than your choice of speaker wires, spikes, speaker terminals, internal cabinet damping or any other mostly marginal audiophile tweaks you could do to them. Dennis's work is simply great acoustical engineering and design work, not foo foo dust.
Sounds like you are saying cabinet damping (with plast-i-clay for example, which I have used many times, always with great results) isn't worthwhile? I don't doubt that Dennis' mods are a bigger change yet, but....
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I will be purchasing 2 sets of Dennis Murphy modified books and modified center and can't wait to buy them. Current projection is 2/1 per his site. I will say this about the standard versions, feeding them solid ICE class D juice from my SC-25 greatly transformed them completely vs. feeding them still quality ampage from my Aventage A830. Huge difference in resolution and all inclusive there. Seems some of those tweeter issues were masked and really changed them. Thought i'd share. Mr. Jones, mucho Starbucks for you sir on me!!!
Brian in Fresno...
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I was just looking at the design of the crossover. It pretty much resembles previous generation design, just altered nominals.
if you look at this from classic 2nd order crossover prospective - it does not make much of the sense, some parts are missing :nono:
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=93799)
I am attaching the diagram for illustration from SP-BS21-LR thread on parts-express forum
I have attached modified diagram with known SP-BS-22-LR nominals. Inductors nominals are unknown, so I left figures from BS21 unmodified.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=94009)
Based on this diagram, proposed addition of the series 4uf cap in tweeter + circuit will make it a 3rd order crossover. the issue is the phases are mismatching now. Also 3rd order will make potential dip even more prominent as it attenuates even more aggressively. 2nd order x-over has 180 phase shift (reversed polarity) and 3rd order has 270 (-90). In order for this mod to work without any side effects an extra series inductor L3 (~0.42mH, based on BS21 nominals) should be added to woofer + circuit to convert it to 3rd order as well. Anyway, later results would suggest no modification to crossover is needed at all.
Just dropping in new vifa tweeter should be good enough upgrade. It may make it a bit brighter (as vifa is 4 ohm). It is not like this speaker could not use a little more highs, besides I like it that way when listening to speakers. Right now I could achieve desirable effect by bumping 8kHz +6dB and 16kHz +5dB. It is more than these speaker needs, but I just like it this way. My expectation after Vifa upgrade - could reduce these bumps and highs will get a bit clearer. But it is pretty acceptable right now.
What is good though, modded Lepai LP-2020A seems to be doing great job when paired with these speakers.
As expected, speakers became more of a S_peakers, not a SH_pikers after Vifa tweeter upgrade. The sound reproduction of Vifa is far better and natural. Original tweeter could get loud, but it sounds very unpleasant, shimmering, compressed and artificial (this is observation when comparing L channel with Vifa vs R with original). Also the tweeter output level did not increase. Later it was confirmed by frequency response test to verify that crossover frequency shift (due to lower tweeter impedance) did not cause any side effect. Luckily, changes had absolutely no impact in the transition range. I was able to drop -4 dB on equalizer: 8kHz +2dB and 16kHz +1dB. BTW, I always listen to my headphones flat, no tone adjustment.
Just drop Vifa BC25TG15-04 (PE Part # 264-1040) or Vifa BC25SG15-04 (PE Part # 264-1026) and this is it, nothing else is required - you are all set now.
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Just drop Vifa BC25TG15-04 (PE Part # 264-1040) or Vifa BC25SG15-04 (PE Part # 264-1026) and this is it, nothing else is required - you are all set now.
Sounds like a very cheap and cheerful (and easy) mod. :D May try this myself, as I've picked up a pair of the BS22s to play with.
Has anyone here tried any of the Class D Audio amps on these speakers?
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I use one in my secondary setup with these awesome speakers:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vscnd&1367787674
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I use one in my secondary setup with these awesome speakers:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vscnd&1367787674
--- never mind ---
I actually followed some links and looked it up. Looks good.
Now to get out of here quick before I fall any farther down the rabbit hole..
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FYI, if anyone is doing the tweeter swap, I found that an old Xcelite 99-67 Bristol Multiple Spline Blade I had from one of those Xcelite tool suitcase sets I bought years ago, fit the tweeter screws.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/hMIAAOxyTjNSmSmx/%24_1.JPG)
It looks like the gasket on the original tweeter won't come off easily without damage. What is recommended to put on the back of the new Vifa, as a gasket? Rope caulk?
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Too much talk regarding these speakers. So I bought them at Fry's Electronics for $89 open box and matching Amazon ad.
Some might find this interesting. I set the SB22's next to a pair of studio monitors, the $15K ATC SCM20's. The ATC's are amazing speakers with their built-in class a biased amplifiers and house made drivers. They measured better than any speaker I've had in my room. In come the $89 Pioneers.
Here's the room response no sub attached. The Pioneers are on their own :wink:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=94467)
That's about a 12db variation at ~10KHz. As expected, bass drops off at 65Hz. For the most part, these would play well and did in my room all by themselves. Wife gave it a thumbs up.
Here's a pic with the subs attached (Atoms)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=94468)
Scratching my head as to why I have a suckout at 7KHz after the subs are employed. But you see the response is all over the place. Just like it is in all your rooms. :lol:
Now here's the cheating part. I ran a calibration from Anti Mode and got this.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=94469)
What you see here is the correction placed between 0 to 500Hz. There's a suckout at 40Hz and anti mode is smart enough to leave that alone.
I know this is cheap and cheerful Thread but I though it might be of interest to someone.
So the Pioneers are being fed amplification from a BMC S1. Not fair but I got to say, $90 bucks is the best money I ever spent on speakers.
So what's wrong with these? The buzzing we hear at a certain frequency I haven't yet identified. Sounds like it coming from the tweeter and more so on the left side. Placement was important but I did manage to get a decent amount of depth and a good central image. The tweeters are a little rough sounding and don't really reach for the stars. The overall image is quite good. Tonality is great. Joan Osborne guttural vocals came through and we got decent separation of instruments although lacking in air. Hey, I could be talking about speakers costing 50 times more! The cables attached to these speakers cost more than 20 times the speakers! Am I crazy or what?
Here's what it looks like now. The ATC's just sold. The subs are going too. Now I'm down to just the Pioneers :o :duh:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=94470)
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A good notch above the Pioneers without breaking the bank is the KEF LS50's. My buddy Rex now has both and he is astounded on how good the KEF's are.
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A good notch above the Pioneers without breaking the bank is the KEF LS50's.
KEF LS50 at $1,500 certainly break the bank of the Cheap and Cheerful HiFi circle.
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Too much talk regarding these speakers. So I bought them at Fry's Electronics for $89 open box and matching Amazon ad.
Some might find this interesting. I set the SB22's next to a pair of studio monitors, the $15K ATC SCM20's. The ATC's are amazing speakers with their built-in class a biased amplifiers and house made drivers. They measured better than any speaker I've had in my room. In come the $89 Pioneers.
Here's the room response no sub attached. The Pioneers are on their own :wink:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=94467)
That's about a 12db variation at ~10KHz. As expected, bass drops off at 65Hz. For the most part, these would play well and did in my room all by themselves. Wife gave it a thumbs up.
Here's a pic with the subs attached (Atoms)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=94468)
Scratching my head as to why I have a suckout at 7KHz after the subs are employed. But you see the response is all over the place. Just like it is in all your rooms. :lol:
Now here's the cheating part. I ran a calibration from Anti Mode and got this.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=94469)
What you see here is the correction placed between 0 to 500Hz. There's a suckout at 40Hz and anti mode is smart enough to leave that alone.
I know this is cheap and cheerful Thread but I though it might be of interest to someone.
So the Pioneers are being fed amplification from a BMC S1. Not fair but I got to say, $90 bucks is the best money I ever spent on speakers.
So what's wrong with these? The buzzing we hear at a certain frequency I haven't yet identified. Sounds like it coming from the tweeter and more so on the left side. Placement was important but I did manage to get a decent amount of depth and a good central image. The tweeters are a little rough sounding and don't really reach for the stars. The overall image is quite good. Tonality is great. Joan Osborne guttural vocals came through and we got decent separation of instruments although lacking in air. Hey, I could be talking about speakers costing 50 times more! The cables attached to these speakers cost more than 20 times the speakers! Am I crazy or what?
Here's what it looks like now. The ATC's just sold. The subs are going too. Now I'm down to just the Pioneers
I agree there is something special on vocals. Especially when it is with very little or no instruments. There is a tonality, height, depth to them that makes you wonder if your in the recording studio with the artist. Almost life like or 3d. As well as my Omega's make a big realistic soundstage they aren't as freaky on the singer yet.
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KEF LS50 at $1,500 certainly break the bank of the Cheap and Cheerful HiFi circle.
But he use to have 15K ATC's.
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I agree there is something special on vocals. Especially when it is with very little or no instruments. There is a tonality, height, depth to them that makes you wonder if your in the recording studio with the artist. Almost life like or 3d. As well as my Omega's make a big realistic soundstage they aren't as freaky on the singer yet.
I picked up a pair of BS22s just for giggles and kicks, to compare to my Magnepan MMGs. Maggies are know for their midrange. Other than the lack of the extra "spaciousness" from the MMGs backwave, I thought the Pioneers sounded very similar in the midrange.
And the whole exercise was to determine whether I wanted to go back to monopole speakers in my small listening room, later to upgrade to something like the KEF LS50s. Now thinking it could happen.
I plan on using a Behringer DEQ2496 to tame the new Vifa tweeters in my Pioneers. IMHO, for what the Behr does, it's pretty cheap and cheerful.
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They are still in our room, the ATC's. After sharing an evening with the Pioneers and reinstalled the ATC's.
The Pioneers are amazing at what they do for their price, but the ATC's made your eyes water how good they sounded.
Bye ATC's. :(
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Amazon have Pioneer SP-BS22-LR on sale for $99.98 as of 02/09/2014!
Price Match @BB paid for tweeter upgrades. Not bad at all.
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If your feeling particularly tight fisted, the SP-BS21 former model is available for $59.99 including shipping, but not tax, from Groupon.
Be aware that if you sign up to Groupon just for this offer and try to send to an address different from your billing one, you might have problems & have to call in your order. At least that happened to me as I was buying to send to a friend as a gift.
Shipping can take up to 12 days - but hey - it's $60! Next cheapest seems to be New Egg @ $80.
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Shipping can take up to 12 days - but hey - it's $60! Next cheapest seems to be New Egg @ $80.
I bought my daughter a sock Monkey hat and it is taking two weeks to get here.
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So...no extra cap in series with tweeter? :scratch:
Based on Dmurphy's analysis, I'm a little confused here....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=93799)
I am attaching the diagram for illustration from SP-BS21-LR thread on parts-express forum
I have attached modified diagram with known SP-BS-22-LR nominals. Inductors nominals are unknown, so I left figures from BS21 unmodified.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=94009)
Based on this diagram, proposed addition of the series 4uf cap in tweeter + circuit will make it a 3rd order crossover. the issue is the phases are mismatching now. Also 3rd order will make potential dip even more prominent as it attenuates even more aggressively. 2nd order x-over has 180 phase shift (reversed polarity) and 3rd order has 270 (-90). In order for this mod to work without any side effects an extra series inductor L3 (~0.42mH, based on BS21 nominals) should be added to woofer + circuit to convert it to 3rd order as well. Anyway, later results would suggest no modification to crossover is needed at all.
Just dropping in new vifa tweeter should be good enough upgrade. It may make it a bit brighter (as vifa is 4 ohm). It is not like this speaker could not use a little more highs, besides I like it that way when listening to speakers. Right now I could achieve desirable effect by bumping 8kHz +6dB and 16kHz +5dB. It is more than these speaker needs, but I just like it this way. My expectation after Vifa upgrade - could reduce these bumps and highs will get a bit clearer. But it is pretty acceptable right now.
What is good though, modded Lepai LP-2020A seems to be doing great job when paired with these speakers.
As expected, speakers became more of a S_peakers, not a SH_pikers after Vifa tweeter upgrade. The sound reproduction of Vifa is far better and natural. Original tweeter could get loud, but it sounds very unpleasant, shimmering, compressed and artificial (this is observation when comparing L channel with Vifa vs R with original). Also the tweeter output level did not increase. Later it was confirmed by frequency response test to verify that crossover frequency shift (due to lower tweeter impedance) did not cause any side effect. Luckily, changes had absolutely no impact in the transition range. I was able to drop -4 dB on equalizer: 8kHz +2dB and 16kHz +1dB. BTW, I always listen to my headphones flat, no tone adjustment.
Just drop Vifa BC25TG15-04 (PE Part # 264-1040) or Vifa BC25SG15-04 (PE Part # 264-1026) and this is it, nothing else is required - you are all set now.
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I would say if you just do the tweeter drop in, without the added crossover electronics, be prepared to have an EQ to tone it down a touch. That's all I did, and it's not that bad, but my equipment and cabling was already leaning towards the "warm" side. Still a little too hot without EQ.
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Newegg has the model '41 for $69 after rebate today.
A good deal on the model with the larger woofer.
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Newegg has the model '41 for $69 after rebate today.
A good deal on the model with the larger woofer.
Nice catch! I think Vifa upgrade will match perfectly x-over wise (4 ohm), if such upgrade is needed. Of course we do not know the sensitivity of original tweeter. Great Price! I use Pioneer speakers as near field monitors/computer speakers. Due to my anatomy: when close to speakers I could hear perfectly when inside the so called "triangle". But it makes it a bit too close. Sometimes, I like to layback in my chair - that is when my treble sensitivity drops as sound is being deflected away of my ears. Naturally I would try to compensate with higher treble level - it only helps a little as I still could not locate position of the sound precisely. Would my ears stick out a little more, there would be no problem, but then it would be unpleasant when driving bike at high speeds - on every gain there is a loss to balance. I found inexpensive solution to correct it though - it just looks funny.
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So...no extra cap in series with tweeter? :scratch:
Based on Dmurphy's analysis, I'm a little confused here....
Not sure how additional capacitor would attenuate tweeter. All it does is makes low frequency rolloff steeper and turns phase additional 90 degrees. If level needs to be lowered I would understand adding series resistor in tweeter circuit - it would make even better to compensate for impedance difference of tweeters. Caps are high pass filters and 4 uf cap will let all treble through, another words - it is transparent.
But the most important is your own sound perception. If you feel tweeter is dominating - just lower it until you satisfied and vise versa. Also the FR graphs are nice, but microphones do not model our ears, so individual perception is more important.
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...it would make even better to compensate for impedance difference of tweeters...
What size resistor would you recommend?
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Newegg has the model '41 for $69 after rebate today.
A good deal on the model with the larger woofer.
I wonder why they dropped this size from the current line. Does anyone know?
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I wonder why they dropped this size from the current line. Does anyone know?
I would imagine that it was because the 22 with the 4" woofer goes lower than the 41 with the 5 1/4" woofer.
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What size resistor would you recommend?
I would add additional 2 ohm resistor in place of recommended capacitor - it would restore x-over back to original and attenuate tweeter slightly ~ -1db.
There is visible hump in treble peaking at 12.5 KHz. Right before it - it is pretty flat. It may be easier and may be even more effective just to move treble knob a notch down.
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I would imagine that it was because the 22 with the 4" woofer goes lower than the 41 with the 5 1/4" woofer.
Not sure it really does, the drop below 100Hz is very steep. At 50 Hz the level will be -20 db on 22. With this kind of readings it does not really matters. Theoretically 5 1/4" should beat 4" with ease. Pioneer did not disclose the +- ? dB in their specs, so it is just numbers at the moment. Also, the cabinet design did not change much, I think it was very easy to edit specs in word processor to make it look better as no tolerances are provided.
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I would add additional 2 ohm resistor in place of recommended capacitor - it would restore x-over back to original and attenuate tweeter slightly ~ -1db.
There is visible hump in treble peaking at 12.5 KHz. Right before it - it is pretty flat. It may be easier and may be even more effective just to move treble knob a notch down.
Thanks Amprocks, will try that. I own an old pair of Thiel 3.0s (packed away now), that could be very bright, the manufacturer knew this and also recommended padding down the tweeter with a power resistor.
Maybe something like this:
http://www.parts-express.com/mills-2-ohm-12w-non-inductive-resistor--005-2 (http://www.parts-express.com/mills-2-ohm-12w-non-inductive-resistor--005-2)
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Not sure it really does, the drop below 100Hz is very steep. At 50 Hz the level will be -20 db on 22. With this kind of readings it does not really matters. Theoretically 5 1/4" should beat 4" with ease. Pioneer did not disclose the +- ? dB in their specs, so it is just numbers at the moment. Also, the cabinet design did not change much, I think it was very easy to edit specs in word processor to make it look better as no tolerances are provided.
This may not be exactly apples to apples, but Stereophile found the SP-BS41 LR to be -6 db at 60 Hz, the port tuning frequency. Sound and Vision magazine shows -6 db @ 59 Hz for the SP-BS22 LR.
How they actually compare when auditioning both may be another matter, I haven't heard the 41s. But driver size is only one of several factors when it comes to low frequency output. I can recall some 70s era Pioneer and Sansui 12" 3-ways that had pretty unimpressive low end.
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs41-lr-loudspeaker-measurements
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All the same driver sizes are not a-like >> there is more to it than
what the eye will see. The Pioneer 4 inch (BS22) and the Cambridge
4-1/2 inch (S30), will out-class some 5-1/4 and 6 inch drivers in the
lower frequencies.
I for sure know that the BS22 does go down low, and is not wimpy.
Even with the Dennis Murphy modded BS22 AAL Monitors - he rates
them down to 60 hz.
HT Labs measured the BS22 -3 db at 63 hz > it will drop like a rock
after 59 hz.
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Even with the Dennis Murphy modded BS22 AAL Monitors - he rates
them down to 60 hz.
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Speaking of Dennis's mods, what's happening with all the tweeters from the stock BS22s? I've got three now. I'll bet Dennis has a bunch.
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This may not be exactly apples to apples, but Stereophile found the SP-BS41 LR to be -6 db at 60 Hz, the port tuning frequency. Sound and Vision magazine shows -6 db @ 59 Hz for the SP-BS22 LR.
How they actually compare when auditioning both may be another matter, I haven't heard the 41s. But driver size is only one of several factors when it comes to low frequency output. I can recall some 70s era Pioneer and Sansui 12" 3-ways that had pretty unimpressive low end.
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs41-lr-loudspeaker-measurements
I own both and it's not even close, the older model has a larger woofer, a bigger cabinet and plays much deeper bass. I wish they still made it because I like the woofer better in the old model and the larger cabinet. I wish Dennis had a mod for the older one, because I bet the final speaker would be superior but it doesn't make sense to modify a discontinued model. Unmodded, I like the older speaker better for casual listening. I've abused mine and they don't seem to mind.
Cheers
Jack
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This may not be exactly apples to apples, but Stereophile found the SP-BS41 LR to be -6 db at 60 Hz, the port tuning frequency. Sound and Vision magazine shows -6 db @ 59 Hz for the SP-BS22 LR.
They obviously use very different measurement techniques, making this an "apples & oranges" sort of comparison. Here's Sound & Vision's review of the SP-BS41-LR, where they measured a -6 db @ 52 Hz (7 Hz lower than they measured for the BS22):
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs41-lr-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
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I own both and it's not even close, the older model has a larger woofer, a bigger cabinet and plays much deeper bass. I wish they still made it because I like the woofer better in the old model and the larger cabinet.
I believe Pioneer does still make the SP-BS41-LR. I own a pair made in summer of 2013, and they're still readily available from Newegg.com:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117406
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Speaking of Dennis's mods, what's happening with all the tweeters from the stock BS22s? I've got three now. I'll bet Dennis has a bunch.
Well, if he gets enough tweeters - maybe he can build a line array.:)
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Well, if he gets enough tweeters - maybe he can build a line array.:)
I'm betting he's got enough for several already!
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I believe Pioneer does still make the SP-BS41-LR. I own a pair made in summer of 2013, and they're still readily available from Newegg.com:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117406
Yep, I have the 41's and they are great for casual listening. The little woofers are very powerful and I bet a Murphy modded pair would be superior to the 22's. The woofer is better than the 22, IMO. It handles way more power and goes much deeper. Fun little speaker that I picked up for $50/pair delivered on sale. Unmodded, they are good enough for casual listening in my workout room.
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Cleaned. Sorry if I split a few legit posts. Please ask your questions again.
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Thanks for all your help on a very valuable thread.
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The 21s are currently on sale at newegg for $52 shipped.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?SID=M7ACtq7eEeOwWR40xRvYTA0_0Ix.3_kMS_0_0&AID=10440897&PID=1225267&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-cables-_-na-_-na&Item=N82E16882117405&cm_sp=
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The 21s are currently on sale at newegg for $52 shipped.
And for those that want to use the SP-B21-LRs for HT, the SP-C21 center channel is on sale at Fry's Online for $50 shipped through 3/20.
http://www.frys.com/product/7285763 (http://www.frys.com/product/7285763)
You can have a 5.0 system for $154 while waiting to turn it into a 5.1 system when a super sale on a subwoofer comes around (like Newegg's previous sale of the Pioneer SW-8-K for $70)! :)
Steve
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You guys just cost me $50. Fry's has a SP-C21 on the way for me.
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Folks, do you know how to get in touch with Dennis to purchase a pair from him. I am finishing my room and BL-22s modded by Dennis would be fantastic for my budget. I have tried to reach him via Philarmonic Audio site and email on that site but did not hear back for a couple of days. I suspect he is quite busy but I would like to get the order placed if I can. Anyone knows if Dennis is on this forum and way to reach him?
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Folks, do you know how to get in touch with Dennis to purchase a pair from him. I am finishing my room and BL-22s modded by Dennis would be fantastic for my budget. I have tried to reach him via Philarmonic Audio site and email on that site but did not hear back for a couple of days. I suspect he is quite busy but I would like to get the order placed if I can. Anyone knows if Dennis is on this forum and way to reach him?
I always get an e-mail back from him by the next day, usually sooner.
Interesting, I see his is out of the monitors yet again, but the modded Towers are coming next.
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I have been listening to a set of Pioneer 52 towers that Dennis completely reworked and sent back to me a couple of weeks ago.
With new tweeters and a complete new crossover, they are vastly better then the originals and are a very respectable and listenable set of low cost mini tower speakers now.
The are good enough to just enjoy the music and forget about the speakers. The stock 52s were unlistenably harsh and rough.
Frank Van Alstine
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I always get an e-mail back from him by the next day, usually sooner.
Interesting, I see his is out of the monitors yet again, but the modded Towers are coming next.
Does it mean Dennis will not do monitors again or unknown?
Towers are too big for my need, I just wish I can order the monitors, they are perfect for my setup.
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Looks like amazon is matching the 21s for $52:
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS21-LR-80-Watts-2-Way-Speakers/dp/B004MEWZE4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395277027&sr=8-1&keywords=SP-BS21-LR
\
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I always get an e-mail back from him by the next day, usually sooner.
Interesting, I see his is out of the monitors yet again, but the modded Towers are coming next.
According to his website, they are available
http://philharmonicaudio.com/folio-me/html/Phil%20Pages/AALS.html
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Folks, do you know how to get in touch with Dennis to purchase a pair from him. I am finishing my room and BL-22s modded by Dennis would be fantastic for my budget. I have tried to reach him via Philarmonic Audio site and email on that site but did not hear back for a couple of days. I suspect he is quite busy but I would like to get the order placed if I can. Anyone knows if Dennis is on this forum and way to reach him?
He may be out of town.
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According to his website, they are available
http://philharmonicaudio.com/folio-me/html/Phil%20Pages/AALS.html
The home page says monitors are out of stock and will be replaced with FS52 but I also saw this page. I am hoping I can still get a pair of Affordable Monitors from Dennis. We will see if I hear back from him in the next couple of days.
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Refresh the screen maybe, for me, that page also says the monitors are sold out again. My monitors just arrived today! :green: Haven't had time to open the box yet.
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Refresh the screen maybe, for me, that page also says the monitors are sold out again. My monitors just arrived today! :green: Haven't had time to open the box yet.
Hope to hear your feedback. I know they are excellent with full mod, light mod is just not flat enough I take it. Since monitors are for my main room 2-channel stereo listening, I prefer full mod to only cap/vifa one. Was so happy to see good speakers for my budget and looks like floorstanders will replace monitors permanently. I wonder if I can ship 22s to Dennis to get full mod?
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This is entirely a guess, but Dennis has expressed two things on these pages. One, he doesn't make any money on modding the 22's, in fact he may lose a little bit because he doesn't figure shipping correctly and values his time way too low for the project. And two, because of One, he doesn't want any more orders on the 22's. He's a great guy and may relent if a few more orders are placed, who knows, it's how much can he put up with.
I would hope that he would do two things. One, price the 52 mod high enough that he makes money on them, and two, raise the price of the modded 22's so he can afford to keep doing the modification. All of the above in both paragraphs are entirely supposition and conjecture, all subject to what Dennis wants to do.
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I can see that Dennis was not making money on 22s. My tough luck was that the day I emailed him for order Affordable Monitors his main page was saying 22s are still available and next day that page has changed to out of stock for 22s.
52s will be fine speakers for the money, I am sure, first reports are confirming that, but for my stereo listening I prefer monitors by a large margin. For HT floostanders are perfect, no doubt.
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Hi, All.
New to the thread, but hope to clarify.
I just bought a pair of Dennis's modded '22s and they are en route via FedEx as of 3/19/14.
Here is the trajectory according to an email from Dennis last Sunday evening (I am assuming that he is OK with my posting. My intention, at least, is to help him. If not, sorry, amigo, 30 lashes for me. His communication is great, BTW with a great sense of humor.)
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Hi Ken I'm taking orders again on the 22's. Turnaround time would be something like one week. The mod for the 52 is finalized. My plan is to sell out of my current supply of stock 22's, and then discontinue them in favor of the floor stander. However, the 52's will probably cost twice as much as the 22's, and I probably won't be able to start on those for another month, depending on how quickly I sell the 22's. Cheers, Dennis
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Please note that it looks like this is likely the last run of 22's in favor of the 52's in case you are waiting / hesitating.
Hope that helps.
Ken
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Thanks for the update. I am sensing this is the case. I am just surprised that I sent Dennis emails from 2 of my email accounts thinking maybe his Spam filters are blocking my domain but have not heard back. At least I would like to hear back and see if I can send a pair of 22s to him and get them upgraded with me paying for all costs and the upgrade as well.
Sorry to hear that fully modded 22s are discontinued, was really hoping to get them for my 2-channel setup.
Hi, All.
New to the thread, but hope to clarify.
I just bought a pair of Dennis's modded '22s and they are en route via FedEx as of 3/19/14.
Here is the trajectory according to an email from Dennis last Sunday evening (I am assuming that he is OK with my posting. My intention, at least, is to help him. If not, sorry, amigo, 30 lashes for me. His communication is great, BTW with a great sense of humor.)
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Hi Ken I'm taking orders again on the 22's. Turnaround time would be something like one week. The mod for the 52 is finalized. My plan is to sell out of my current supply of stock 22's, and then discontinue them in favor of the floor stander. However, the 52's will probably cost twice as much as the 22's, and I probably won't be able to start on those for another month, depending on how quickly I sell the 22's. Cheers, Dennis
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Please note that it looks like this is likely the last run of 22's in favor of the 52's in case you are waiting / hesitating.
Hope that helps.
Ken
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Hi, All.
I should have added to my previous 3/20 note that Dennis will continue to modify the Center Channel speaker per his email to me.
Cheers,
Ken
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Thanks for the update. I am sensing this is the case. I am just surprised that I sent Dennis emails from 2 of my email accounts thinking maybe his Spam filters are blocking my domain but have not heard back. At least I would like to hear back and see if I can send a pair of 22s to him and get them upgraded with me paying for all costs and the upgrade as well.
Sorry to hear that fully modded 22s are discontinued, was really hoping to get them for my 2-channel setup.
Hi dvzzz I'm not aware of any emails that I haven't answered. I've crosschecked with my sent file, and there's a match for everyone received, so I don't know what the issue is. I just can't keep up with orders for the 22's--I got 7 new pairs of stock 22's in on Monday, and they were gone the next day.
I'm going to give the 52's a try, since I think the relative improvement is greater, and I suspect the demand will be more manageable. I still have to work out pricing.
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Thank you for your response. I just tried PM to make sure it goes through. Hope it reached you.
Hi dvzzz I'm not aware of any emails that I haven't answered. I've crosschecked with my sent file, and there's a match for everyone received, so I don't know what the issue is. I just can't keep up with orders for the 22's--I got 7 new pairs of stock 22's in on Monday, and they were gone the next day.
I'm going to give the 52's a try, since I think the relative improvement is greater, and I suspect the demand will be more manageable. I still have to work out pricing.
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Affordable Accuracy Towers is a great name for your version of the Pioneer 52s, Dennis.
If I simple fire them up first thing in the morning when going into the sound lab and forget about turning on my "big" speakers (Philharmonic Threes and Salk HT3s) I can forget about them and just enjoy the music with the little towers.
Meanwhile, my B&W801s are languishing in the back room. For sale, $2000 for the pair, in great condition but no shipping cartons.
Keep up the great work, Dennis.
Frank Van Alstine
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I finally got the wife and kids out of the house for a bit last night, so I got to test out Dennis' modded 22s against (1) the original 41s, and (2) Selah S6.
The 22s are much closer to the S6 than the 41s. The 41s sounded lifeless compared to the 22s. The S6s had more detail and imaging. The modded 22s were very smooth and easy to listen to. I've spent more time with headphones, and I would tend to call the 22s a Sennheiser HD580 type of speaker, a bit laid back but something extremely comfortable that you could listen to for a long time without getting tired of it.
Kudos to Andrew for the 22s, and Dennis for the mods, they produced an amazing budget speaker.
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Does the mod get rid of sibilance?
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Pioneer SP-BS22-LR on sale again at several vendors all with Free Shipping (USA Lower 48) as of Sunday 3/23/2014:
Amazon: $86.99
B&H Photo: $89.99
Newegg: $89.99
Best Buy: $90.99
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Pioneer SW-8MK2 subwoofer also on sale all with Free Shipping (USA Lower 48):
Amazon: $106.99
B&H Photo: $109.99
Newegg: $109.99
Best Buy: $111.99
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Does the mod get rid of sibilance?
Anyone?
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Anyone?
Shhh. Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Yes, of course Dennis Murphy's rework of the Pioneer 22 does get rid of the excess sibilance. He does install a new tweeter and a much revised crossover.
His work on the Pioneer 52 is even more amazing, he takes this speaker from unlistenable to damn good.
Frank Van Alstine
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Yes, of course Dennis Murphy's rework of the Pioneer 22 does get rid of the excess sibilance. He does install a new tweeter and a much revised crossover.
His work on the Pioneer 52 is even more amazing, he takes this speaker from unlistenable to damn good.
Frank Van Alstine
Thanks Frank! Hopefully we can get the prices from Dennis soon?
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Hopefully Dennis prices the '52 to allow himself at least minimum wage for his efforts. :wink:
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To Afterlife2 regarding sibilance:
In addition to the much admired & trusted AVAHifi reply:
Yes, of course Dennis Murphy's rework of the Pioneer 22 does get rid of the excess sibilance. He does install a new tweeter and a much revised crossover.
His work on the Pioneer 52 is even more amazing, he takes this speaker from unlistenable to damn good.
Frank Van Alstine
Dennis was kind, considerate and thorough enough to email me the before and after frequency response graphs, before and after for my particular samples of his work. Wow!
After Dennis's work: Looks smooth & Happy, no indication of stridency or sibilance.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=96814)
Before, as stock: 5 Db Suckout between 2k & 7k with a 5 dB rise starting at 10k - Screeeeech!!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=96815)
My pair should arrive in the next day or two. Hearing will tell, but it sure looks like Mr. Van Alstine's comment are corroborated by the data.
Happy listening,
Ken
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Ken thanks for sharing. 8) Now I really want the mod. :thumb: The 52's sound good mostly, but the sibilance bothers me on certain songs like the new George Micheal CD Symphonica. I emailed Dennis yesterday and am anxiously waiting for a responce. This is my second pair and I remember some of the Beatles stuff had crazy sibilance on my first pair, which drowned in the storm sadly. Can't wait for your impressions Ken. Did you order the 22's or 52's?
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Hey, Afterlife2
I got the 22's because it appears that it will take Dennis a while to whittle down his inventory of those same 22's before he begins producing the 52's in earnest.
I didn't want to wait for the larger ones, so just hit the PayPal button for the little guys.
I will probably jump on the 52's when they are available.
It will take me a while to compare them to the main systems since these will be in a different location - for my Mom's (unlistenable) TV - a true audio-horror (I turn them down to "2" because of the distortion and hand her the wireless headphones. That bad. Shame on you, Vizio.)
It would be a hoot to hook em up to the big rig and hear what happens.
For now, I got her a Peachtree iNova - decent sound and a very simple remote. Off/On. Up/ Down. Nice.
More to follow as it all unfolds.
Cheers,
Ken
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Cool thanks Ken. :green: Can't wait for the review and if possible some pics. Does the tweeter look different from the stock one? Also is the same tweeter and crossover used for both 22's and 52's? Still waiting on Dennis to reply.
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Dennis's crossover for the 52s is very much different and much more complex than for the 22s. The 52s were very difficult to crack. The three woofers are essentially wired in series and no "normal" crossover design software is designed to cope with that. I believe both his 22 and 52 upgrades use the same new tweeter.
Again, my 52s that Dennis reworked are very nice speakers. They don't have the range or transparency of my HT3s or Philly 3s (I would really have been surprised if they did) but they are quite neutral sounding and easy to listen to. One can forget their low price, that is for sure.
Frank Van Alstine
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Thanks Frank for the insight. I am so looking to hear the new mod, Just waiting to hear back from Dennis...
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Thanks Frank for the insight. I am so looking to hear the new mod, Just waiting to hear back from Dennis...
The Insight, the Synergy, the Fet-Valve, I could go on and on..
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Dropped the $89 bones and took the open baffle Hawthornes out of the rotation for a while. Added a topping tp20 class d for $30 from ebay.
(had the parts express sonic impact in aluminum chassis.)
Yes they are worth the money.
Ye I hear things I did not hear from other speakers.
Yes I am upgrading the Cal Audio DAC to either a $100 Schiit, Dragonfly, or HRT.
Agree with Mr. Van Alstine's comments on a computer, (spotify) cheap amp, these speakers and maybe a cheapish dac and it is pretty hard to beat unless a lot more is spent.
They do produce an amount of bass that is confounding given their size. Not muddled either.
These really shine on acoustic music. (Iron and Wine)
Thanks all for the reviews here. Would have never stumbled upon them otherwise.
If you haven't checked them out, try them. :thumb:
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Has anyone thought about using a couple of T amps (or Sure boards) fed by a 2 way active crossover to bypass the x-over network? Seems overkill, but the electronics are pretty cheap.
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Maybe this combination would be fun to try...
http://www.parts-express.com/4x100w-at-4-ohm-tk2050-class-t-digital-audio-amplifier-board--320-335 (http://www.parts-express.com/4x100w-at-4-ohm-tk2050-class-t-digital-audio-amplifier-board--320-335)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/473021-REG/Rolls_SX45_SX45_Stereo_Crossover.html/prm/alsVwDtl (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/473021-REG/Rolls_SX45_SX45_Stereo_Crossover.html/prm/alsVwDtl)
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Have not heard back from Dennis. :( Is there a better way to contact him? I really want some info about the modded 52's. :thumb:
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Have not heard back from Dennis. :( Is there a better way to contact him? I really want some info about the modded 52's. :thumb:
You're trying info@philharmonicaudio.com ?
If you are, maybe he's just out of town for now.
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No just PM'd him here, but no reply. :scratch: I'll try that one. Thanks man.
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Hi Afterlife Sorry--I rarely get to the AC circle, and I don't get any alert for messages. Best to e-mail me at the info address. Just to clear up any possible confusion, the 52 upgrade cannot be implemented in the field. It's too complex for that. I'll have to perform it on new 52's I order. I'll be caught up on my 22 orders this weekend and will turn to the 52's next week. I still don't know how much it will cost.
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Hi Afterlife Sorry--I rarely get to the AC circle, and I don't get any alert for messages. Best to e-mail me at the info address. Just to clear up any possible confusion, the 52 upgrade cannot be implemented in the field. It's too complex for that. I'll have to perform it on new 52's I order. I'll be caught up on my 22 orders this weekend and will turn to the 52's next week. I still don't know how much it will cost.
Hi Dennis thanks! I'm looking forward to buying the 1st 52's when you are ready. I'll be tuned here waiting patiently.
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slight buzzing or resonance coming from one of my speakers, took the driver out thinking it may have been fiberfill, nothing. Any thoughts? :scratch:
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Check all wiring? You xcared me I thought Dennis put the 52's on sale. :thumb:
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problem fixed, thanks for the tip. :thumb:
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problem fixed, thanks for the tip. :thumb:
Glad it worked out. :D
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So I finally had a chance to hear a stock set of 22's at the local HH Gregg and I'm sad to say I was left very unimpressed. With the caveat that of course the setup was way less than ideal, I found them dull and lifeless, lacking in dynamics and not very musical. Judged on tone and frequency response, I'd say they are a nice bargain at either the $120 retail or the discounted prices quoted here and a product I'll still recommend to non-audiophile friends, but not something I'd want to add to my stable of speakers. They also had the 52's on display and my comments would be similar, albeit with more dynamics and bass extension. Now since everyone else here seems to think the 22's are far superior to the 52's in musicality, I'm willing to blame a lot of my underwhelment on the crappy store setup and source material, however the cheap Klipsch bookshelves sounded every bit as bad as I remembered and the Polk floorstanders sounded just as nice as I recalled them sounding elsewhere (nice, not great, but nice). Also, I didn't hear the tizzy treble attributed to the little Pioneer's, possibly because they were mounted on the top shelf with the tweeter far above my head. For anyone who might have heard them at a retail store and bought them anyway, how much better can they sound under optimal conditions?
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For anyone who might have heard them at a retail store and bought them anyway, how much better can they sound under optimal conditions?
I guess you don't want to read through the 36 previous pages then? :lol:
(To kind of repeat myself, after dampening the cabinets, the highs are a bit rolled off. Nice bass for their size. They are a bit anemic overall but really don't do anything badly which for me meant I could crank them up without them hurting my ears. They are best kept 2 ft from the wall as recommended by Pioneer.)
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So I finally had a chance to hear a stock set of 22's at the local HH Gregg and I'm sad to say I was left very unimpressed. With the caveat that of course the setup was way less than ideal, I found them dull and lifeless, lacking in dynamics and not very musical. Judged on tone and frequency response, I'd say they are a nice bargain at either the $120 retail or the discounted prices quoted here and a product I'll still recommend to non-audiophile friends, but not something I'd want to add to my stable of speakers. They also had the 52's on display and my comments would be similar, albeit with more dynamics and bass extension. Now since everyone else here seems to think the 22's are far superior to the 52's in musicality, I'm willing to blame a lot of my underwhelment on the crappy store setup and source material, however the cheap Klipsch bookshelves sounded every bit as bad as I remembered and the Polk floorstanders sounded just as nice as I recalled them sounding elsewhere (nice, not great, but nice). Also, I didn't hear the tizzy treble attributed to the little Pioneer's, possibly because they were mounted on the top shelf with the tweeter far above my head. For anyone who might have heard them at a retail store and bought them anyway, how much better can they sound under optimal conditions?
Good grief, what do you expect from a "crappy store setup" ...where they are mounted on the top shelf with the tweeter far above your head driven with crap electronics playing crap source material? :roll:
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For anyone who might have heard them at a retail store and bought them anyway, how much better can they sound under optimal conditions?
MUCH better. I'd be pretty confident in saying that about every speaker in a big box store.
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^^+1 never listen to speakers in any store, unless they have a closed room.
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I guess you don't want to read through the 36 previous pages then? :lol:
Lol, I have to read all 36 pages being the Facilitator.
Good grief, what do you expect from a "crappy store setup" ...where they are mounted on the top shelf with the tweeter far above your head driven with crap electronics playing crap source material? :roll:
MUCH better. I'd be pretty confident in saying that about every speaker in a big box store.
I agree, but would note I was able to identify the traits I have previously liked and disliked with other speakers on display there. I think we all can be too much the audio snob when listening to big box products (I know I am anyway) and we should remember the "crap" electronics and source material are not all that bad. When using them on a comparison basis they worked just fine. My biggest concern was the placement, so I walked way back for my comparisons and could easily hear the difference between the Pioneers, the Polks, and the Klipsch speakers. All that being said, I'm sure they improve with high quality sources and proper placement, I didn't think they'd gain enough dynamics and bass impact for me to be interested, even for fun as a spare set.
Also note that I would still recommend them for someone looking for new in that price range. Their problems seemed to all be the famous "sins of omission" type. I thought they were very smooth and inoffensive. However, for a couple of dollars more ($198 vs $120/pr) I would have purchased the somewhat larger Polks hands down. For the Polk model closer to the Pioneer's price point, it would have been much closer (not sure which models, I just pushed the yellow buttons). So I think I be more interested in either Dennis' modded speakers or a mythical "BS-42" model, a little larger model with more punch and musicality.
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As for dynamics and bass impact--paired with my new amp... those are some of the things they excel at. Pulled out 10' off the front wall into the center of the room, bass (within it's limitation) is astonishing.
Macro dynamics at times makes for an interesting challenge. It plays out like this.
"That's not too loud is it?"
"No, that's fine. Leave the volume there."
One minute later... :rock:
"TURN IT DOWN!" :flak:
"I never touched the volume control."
"Yeah, right."
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=98382)
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So I think I be more interested in either Dennis' modded speakers or a mythical "BS-42" model, a little larger model with more punch and musicality.
Agreed there, I have the Dennis 22s at work, and they are a marked improvement.
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Agreed there, I have the Dennis 22s at work, and they are a marked improvement.
But he's not modding them anymore, just the FS52's.
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As for dynamics and bass impact--paired with my new amp... those are some of the things they excel at. Pulled out 10' off the front wall into the center of the room, bass (within it's limitation) is astonishing.
Thanks for the reply. Looks like I'll have to find a better setup to hear them at their best. Maybe Best Buy will have a more revealing installation.
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I'm buying the SF-52's today or tomorrow !! :thumb:
They will need to sound great as they are replacing my Vapor Breeze speakers.
I am using them for 99% home theater.
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But he's not modding them anymore, just the FS52's.
Not yet. I'm still waiting...
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You're not the only one who's waiting. I have all the crossover parts and tweeters here--just waiting for my supplier of 52's to get them back in stock. They keep pushing the date back.
The latest ETA is Monday, but I'm not betting the store on it. If they do get stock and ship, I'll get to work and put them up for sale. The price will be $275/pr. I really don't know what the competition is like at that price. Does Polk have a decent tower speaker for $300/pr or less? I don't do Best Buy, so I'm kind of in the dark.
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You're not the only one who's waiting. I have all the crossover parts and tweeters here--just waiting for my supplier of 52's to get them back in stock. They keep pushing the date back.
The latest ETA is Monday, but I'm not betting the store on it. If they do get stock and ship, I'll get to work and put them up for sale. The price will be $275/pr. I really don't know what the competition is like at that price. Does Polk have a decent tower speaker for $300/pr or less? I don't do Best Buy, so I'm kind of in the dark.
Count me in! :thumb:
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The price will be $275/pr. I really don't know what the competition is like at that price. Does Polk have a decent tower speaker for $300/pr or less? I don't do Best Buy, so I'm kind of in the dark.
There is a Polk tower at that price, a little lower in price as it's on closeout, the TSX330T is $250/pr now at BB, it's maybe a little better the unmodded 52's. The Polk has a lower f3, 33hz vs 40hz (unspecified), a little more efficient at 90db vs 87db, and is a more integrated sounding product, albeit still fairly veiled and confused. It's normally $500/pr so I assume a new model is in the works. Polk's don't really get to "high fidelity" until you go up to the Rti line, which is $800/pr for floorstanders, a bargain price for what you get, but not in competition with you and not C&C.
Another competitor is the little Infinity tower (and it's nearly identical JBL stablemate). Not my favorite speaker for sure, but they kick butt in the $300/pr tower market, which is very limited anyway. I guess you could say the Polks and the Infinitys are the only acceptable floorstanders at that price, IME. Neither of them would be described in the same fashion that Frank described your modded 52's.
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Polk has a couple of floorstanders that are regularly on sale for less than $300/pair. Recently their Monitor 55T was available for $100/pair. There's also a M65T at under $300/pair when on sale.
JBL Studio 80's can be found on sale for $200/pair.
Infinity Primus 363 can be found for under $300/pair.
Klipsch has some too in this price point.
To see more details go to slickdeals.net and put the brand you are interested in into the search box.
I have not heard any of them so I have no idea as to how they sound.
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The only $300 and down tower that I would consider in stock form,
would be the Cambridge Audio S70 - for $260 a pair
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cambs70oak/cambridge-audio-s70-5-3-way-floorstanding-speakers-each-dark-oak/1.html
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The only $300 and down tower that I would consider in stock form,
would be the Cambridge Audio S70 - for $260 a pair
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cambs70oak/cambridge-audio-s70-5-3-way-floorstanding-speakers-each-dark-oak/1.html
Granted it's on sale for that price, but the retail is $600/pr. At that price we bring in MMGs and PSB Alpha Ts, as well as several other models that might be much better than anything anyone could wring out of the Pioneers. The CAs are likely a great bargain at the closeout price (I haven't heard them), but so are many used and closeout models. Not that it's wrong to mention a sale price, only recognizing that the fair comparison would be Dennis' modded 52s selling used in a couple of years for $100.
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Not that it's wrong to mention a sale price, only recognizing that the fair comparison would be Dennis' modded 52s selling used in a couple of years for $100.
Good luck with that. The Pio 22's and 52's have been out for years and they've sold a gazillion of those. Look at ebay on a regular basis and you can only occasionally find them for sale used at almost retail.
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Everytime I get a notice I'm thinking the 52 mod is on sale. :nono: :lol:
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Good luck with that. The Pio 22's and 52's have been out for years and they've sold a gazillion of those. Look at ebay on a regular basis and you can only occasionally find them for sale used at almost retail.
Yeah, I've been at this awhile, the latest and greatest fades from the limelight and prices settle down after a few years. Right now they're hot, remember the Insignia a couple of years ago? Last one I saw was $40 on eBay. The very nice Cambridge Audio mentioned above is selling for a 57% discount. But you could be right about the modded speakers, limited edition status may keep their values higher for a longer period. For the stock models you need only check current sale prices on the BS21s.
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The only $300 and down tower that I would consider in stock form,
would be the Cambridge Audio S70 - for $260 a pair
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cambs70oak/cambridge-audio-s70-5-3-way-floorstanding-speakers-each-dark-oak/1.html
How do you think these would compare to modded FS52's. The price is similar. I'm excited to possibly try the modded FS52's, but one thing I don't love is the looks. I think I like the looks of the S70's better. At the end of the day, I want what will sound best. The other issue is the S50 center speaker is double the price of the modded center from Dennis. So the Cambridge towers and center will run $100 more.
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Yeah, I've been at this awhile, the latest and greatest fades from the limelight and prices settle down after a few years. Right now they're hot, remember the Insignia a couple of years ago? Last one I saw was $40 on eBay.
Though I got them on sale that's what I paid for new Insignias's. I don't think they were much more than that unless they raised the price later.
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The only $300 and down tower that I would consider in stock form,
would be the Cambridge Audio S70 - for $260 a pair
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cambs70oak/cambridge-audio-s70-5-3-way-floorstanding-speakers-each-dark-oak/1.html
While that's a great deal on those Cambridge speakers, it does not include shipping. When I use their shopping cart to calculate the shipping cost, the least expensive option for shipping (Fedex Ground) to my address is an additional $91.38. That drives the price up to over $350/pair. Still a good deal, but not the screaming good deal they would be at $260/pair.
I'm not sure what Dennis will be charging for shipping on his modded SP-FS52 speakers, but I think when shopping for comparable value, it's best to look at total delivered price, including shipping.
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While that's a great deal on those Cambridge speakers, it does not include shipping. When I use their shopping cart to calculate the shipping cost, the least expensive option for shipping (Fedex Ground) to my address is an additional $91.38. That drives the price up to over $350/pair. Still a good deal, but not the screaming good deal they would be at $260/pair.
I'm not sure what Dennis will be charging for shipping on his modded SP-FS52 speakers, but I think when shopping for comparable value, it's best to look at total delivered price, including shipping.
Shipping for me is $47, so I'm just over $300. I imagine it's the same ballpark for the modded 52's. Which would sound better? And even then, the Cambridge center is $100 more.
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I posted on AVS regarding my speaker search, and figured I'd try hear since several have heard the modded pioneer speakers. I'm leaning towards the fs52 towers and center from Dennis, my other thoughts were:
S30s
S70s
Arx a1b
Ascend cbm170
Hvl-1
It's about 50/50 music to tv and movies for my listening. If I went bookshelf, I'd need stands. I'd be interested in any opinions since its not easy to audition all of these. Getting a matching center would be a concern too, if I went with the higher priced bookshelf speakers, I'd maybe hold off to save forcenter
I've read a lot about all of these, just not sure how they'd stack up vs the modded pioneers. Especially the more expensive arx and ascend line
Thanks for the help
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You guys just cost me $50. Fry's has a SP-C21 on the way for me.
And I didn't like it at all. Kinda muffled sounding. Didn't work with my Boston A70s at all. So I sent it on its way.
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And I didn't like it at all. Kinda muffled sounding. Didn't work with my Boston A70s at all. So I sent it on its way.
The newer 22 center is really good and with the mod I bet better.
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And I didn't like it at all. Kinda muffled sounding. Didn't work with my Boston A70s at all. So I sent it on its way.
You were using it with a set of L/Rs to which it wasn't timbre matched. I'm not surprised that it did not work out. This doesn't indicate much re: the performance of the SP-C21.
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The Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers are again on sale at amazon.com. Current price is $99.00/pair with free shipping. Also note, Best Buy price matches amazon prices.
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While that's a great deal on those Cambridge speakers, it does not include shipping. When I use their shopping cart to calculate the shipping cost, the least expensive option for shipping (Fedex Ground) to my address is an additional $91.38. That drives the price up to over $350/pair. Still a good deal, but not the screaming good deal they would be at $260/pair.
I'm not sure what Dennis will be charging for shipping on his modded SP-FS52 speakers, but I think when shopping for comparable value, it's best to look at total delivered price, including shipping.
The shipping for me would be $57.60 - so it depends on location - that is a good deal
I do not just look at shipping - I look at quality
Now based on the work of Dennis, the modded Pioneer tower should come out better
as far as quality. His modded BS22 bookshelves turned out better, than the Stock S30
Cambridge bookshelf speakers - and Cambridge does good work.
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The shipping for me would be $57.60 - so it depends on location - that is a good deal
I'm on the West Coast. So, it's definitely based on location.
I do not just look at shipping - I look at quality
I don't just look at shipping either, I look at value: quality/price and shipping cost impacts the bottom half of that equation. I was just trying to point out when people are comparing other speakers to the quality and performance of the modded SP-FS52s, they should factor in the shipping cost to get an accurate comparison in terms of quality for money spent.
Now based on the work of Dennis, the modded Pioneer tower should come out better
as far as quality. His modded BS22 bookshelves turned out better, than the Stock S30
Cambridge bookshelf speakers - and Cambridge does good work.
Agreed. The unmodded SP-BS22-LPs are a very good value (especially when on sale). The modded version is a great value. Hopefully, the same will prove true for Dennis' modded SP-FS52s. I fully expect it will.
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Sigh. My supplier's claimed restock date for the 52's slipped again--now they're saying next Friday. I may have to break down and order a pair at retail just to get some feedback.
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Sigh. My supplier's claimed restock date for the 52's slipped again--now they're saying next Friday. I may have to break down and order a pair at retail just to get some feedback.
Dennis,
Is there a Best Buy near you? I can't find any good current sale prices on the SP-FS52s. Best Buy's current price is $126.99, but if you have one close by, you won't have to wait for, or pay for, shipping. Also, if they go on sale at any competitor (including amazon.com), Best Buy will price match.
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Dennis,
Is there a Best Buy near you? I can't find any good current sale prices on the SP-FS52s. Best Buy's current price is $126.99, but if you have one close by, you won't have to wait for, or pay for, shipping. Also, if they go on sale at any competitor (including amazon.com), Best Buy will price match.
Thanks. I do have a convenient BB. I get free shipping from Amazon, but I might opt for BB to make sure of the price match.
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How 'bout these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-Speakers-SP-FS-52-/111346303934?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item19ecc1c3be
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Sigh. My supplier's claimed restock date for the 52's slipped again--now they're saying next Friday. I may have to break down and order a pair at retail just to get some feedback.
I can send my pair out to you. PM me if it's cool.
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Sigh. My supplier's claimed restock date for the 52's slipped again--now they're saying next Friday. I may have to break down and order a pair at retail just to get some feedback.
Sigh. And sigh again. Now the delivery date for the stock towers is the 27th. I'll call today to see whether they really expect the towers to be available in the future. I'm currently modding a pair that an owner sent me. One of them clearly had a defective crossover board, so it appears that there are the same kinds of QC issues with the towers as with the monitors. If I can't get get assurances about continued delivery for the towers, I'll shift back to the monitors.
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Sigh. And sigh again. Now the delivery date for the stock towers is the 27th. I'll call today to see whether they really expect the towers to be available in the future. I'm currently modding a pair that an owner sent me. One of them clearly had a defective crossover board, so it appears that there are the same kinds of QC issues with the towers as with the monitors. If I can't get get assurances about continued delivery for the towers, I'll shift back to the monitors.
Can we send the towers to you to have them modded?
Thanks
Ryan
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As a happy owner of a pair of SP-BS22-LR speakers, I wonder how the recently announced sell off of Pioneers home av division will effect availability and future development of the Andrew Jones speaker line.
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As a happy owner of a pair of SP-BS22-LR speakers, I wonder how the recently announced sell off of Pioneers home av division will effect availability and future development of the Andrew Jones speaker line.
Interesting news. Which company bought the av division?
Paul
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Anyone got a link with details?
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Anyone got a link with details?
http://www.ceoutlook.com/2014/05/20/pioneer-in-talks-to-sell-av-business (http://www.ceoutlook.com/2014/05/20/pioneer-in-talks-to-sell-av-business)
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Well, I couldn't get much of a comfort level from my supplier that the towers will actually ship on the 27th, so I'm going to resume sales of the monitors. I'll get them in on Monday. I'm going to raise the price a little to get me up closer to half of the minimum wage. So the new price will be $165/pr.
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My supplier finally came through with the stock towers, albeit with unexpected and inexplicable shipping charges. They should arrive Monday. I'll hold the price at the promised $275/pr, at least for this shipment.
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Amazon has a great deal going on.
Jeff
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-Designed-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B008NCD2LG/ref=sr_1_1?t=slickdeals&tag=slickdeals&ascsubtag=6458653ec3fb4ff9b9c7b823546bb91a&s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1402159682&sr=1-1&keywords=pioneer+speakers
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$65/pr shipped is the lowest price ever offered on the BS22 (Fry's is also offering them at $65 in-store only). Amazon also has the FS52 floorstanders for $130/pair shipped.
Steve
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With delivery, I paid $190 CAD for mine in stock form and I have no regrets. They are surprisingly balanced, open and have better than expected bass.
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My Dennis Murphy modified speakers arrived today, and a brief listening session confirms that the modded speakers are very impressive, especially considering their price. To the extent that I recall the stock speakers, these are very much better in their ability to disappear, leaving only the recorded soundstage in front of you, and are clean, with no obvious peaks coming from the tweeter. Very nice, Dennis! :thumb:
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My buddy Rex saw the post of Roger Modjeski and decided to try two pairs of the 22's as a line source. Roger even recommends four pair. Rex has a pair of stock ones and a pair of dmurphy's modified ones. Rex now says he his getting a more bass, bigger soundstage, and more body. Rex has one pair upside down so the tweeters are close together.
I guess I want to try that now. Holler if anyone sees that heck of a deal on the 22's. I just might buy three more pair.
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Some new Andrew Jones Pioneers are supposed to be announced tomorrow but I think these may be in the Pioneer Elite line. Coaxials drivers to boot if my sleuthing turns out to be accurate.
On a related note did you see the announcement that Pioneer CE was sold to Onkyo and an equity firm.
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Some new Andrew Jones Pioneers are supposed to be announced tomorrow but I think these may be in the Pioneer Elite line. Coaxials drivers to boot if my sleuthing turns out to be accurate.
On a related note did you see the announcement that Pioneer CE was sold to Onkyo and an equity firm.
I just looked that up. A Hong Kong equity firm gets 51% of the ownership. :duh:
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I just looked that up. A Hong Kong equity firm gets 51% of the ownership. :duh:
Welcome to the future. China alone is set to to eclipse the U.S. as the largest market for theatrical movies. The middle class there is getting huger and huger along with the million and billionaires. They are buying/investing in all things audio/video related right now.
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They buy other things too:)
(http://0.tqn.com/d/create/1/0/0/x/C/-/Great-Wallet-of-China.jpg)
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Equity firm is Barings, as in Nick Leeson's Barings, not all they do turns a profit :D
Onkyo is the nice part, somehow the struggling little company that made fine hifi moved quicker then more succesfull competitors some years ago. Now others are struggling. Sony was also advised to quit.
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Some new Andrew Jones Pioneers are supposed to be announced tomorrow but I think these may be in the Pioneer Elite line. Coaxials drivers to boot if my sleuthing turns out to be accurate.
On a related note did you see the announcement that Pioneer CE was sold to Onkyo and an equity firm.
Details on the new Andrew Jones designed Pioneer Elite Atmos speakers have been posted on the Pioneer web site here:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...Elite+Speakers
Pricing posted in this article on CNET:
http://www.cnet.com/news/pioneer-debuts-atmos-friendly-speakers-and-receivers-full-system-starts-at-4750/
SP-EBS73-LR bookshelf speakers ($750 per pair)
SP-EFS73 floorstanding speakers ($700 each)
SP-EC73 center channel ($400)
SW-E10 subwoofer ($600)
Not exactly cheap and cheerful. The top firing drivers are for Dolby Atmos compatibility, which seems to make them better for high end home theater systems, rather than serious audio listening. So, I'll be sticking with my modified SP-BS22-LR mains and thrift store subwoofer for my 2.1 listening pleasure.
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Greetings all
I too have jumped in on these great speakers (I have them flanking my display doing duty for center channel) and I’m wondering if anyone has considered using the Vifa XT25TG30-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter from PE. Would it need the cap mod as well?
Craig
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While I would consider Atmos to be a gimmick with minimal home theater benefit like the height speakers although no personal experience with them, I like the idea of top facing speakers to increase the 'airiness' of the speaker and it's likely that AJ has created an upgraded version of his bargain basement speaker system while bringing the TAD technology to a lower price range.
Wait a minute now......wasn't that the device in Dr. Who that first converted car exhaust gases to oxygen and then emitted toxic gas that gave the Earth a poisonous atmosphere for alien invaders, IMO not a great name for a new home theater technology. :roll:
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I guess I want to try that now. Holler if anyone sees that heck of a deal on the 22's. I just might buy three more pair.
I'm with you OzarkTom, I'd love to see the 22s @ $65 again. I'd grab 4 pairs in a second and build an OTL to drive the friendly 24 ohm load. They seem to be @ $125 everywhere these days. :(
Have you heard your friend's DMurphy modded 22s?
Good listening,
Lary
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I'm with you OzarkTom, I'd love to see the 22s @ $65 again. I'd grab 4 pairs in a second and build an OTL to drive the friendly 24 ohm load. They seem to be @ $125 everywhere these days. :(
Have you heard your friend's DMurphy modded 22s?
Good listening,
Lary
I will go listen to them next month. My friend is moving back to Hawaii soon, so I have to go hear them.
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I'd love to see the 22s @ $65 again. I'd grab 4 pairs in a second and build an OTL to drive the friendly 24 ohm load. They seem to be @ $125 everywhere these days. :(
Who knows if they'll be on sale for $65 again like they were very briefly for a Father's Day sale ..... but Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117424) put them on sale today for $80 shipped. Like many of these sales they could be back up to $130 tomorrow*. Best Buy may also do a price match.
* Edit: Yep, back up to $130 today, so it was a one day sale.
Steve
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Best Buy may also do a price match.
They should, I got a Pioneer sub from them that way.
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The BS22's are on sale again today at Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117424) for $80 shipped while all the other usual suspect vendors have them at the normal ~ $130 price. As in my post on July 20th (two posts above) it could likely be another Newegg one-day sale and back up to normal price tomorrow.
(And of course the always possible Best Buy price match)
Steve
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Got my Dennis-modded 22s hooked up to a much bigger amp this weekend (Emotiva XPA-200, which is 150 wpc versus the 60 wpc old integrated that I was using). The results were quite outstanding. Terrific sounding speakers. Not going to bring down the walls with output, but still gets plenty loud with a very high quality sound.
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How long do the 22's take to break in? I have a new pair of C22's (that I'm using as a L-R stereo pair) I've been breaking in for about 8 hours and they seem constricted and maybe bright compared to my old B41's. Or maybe they are different animals.
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Speakers are typically 100 to 200 hours before they're really broken in. Specifically to the Pioneers I wouldn't know exactly, but as it's an ongoing process that has no definite end, I suspect no one knows for sure. However all of these scenarios entail more than 8 hours so you have a great deal of enjoyment to go through before reaching audio nirvana.
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Anyone have thoughts on how these might do as a desktop speaker?
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Anyone have thoughts on how these might do as a desktop speaker?
I have a pair on the desktop, well actually on a computer desk shelf.
They are
- ~ even with the top of my head
- angled down a few degrees
- 6 inches from the wall
- 2 feet apart
- on their sides with tweeters to the outside
- toed-in ~ 30 degrees
I think they are well worth the $70 sale price and give a solid nearfield stereo image, but they don't seem quite as smooth or as well balanced as the speakers they replaced, the B&W DM302 (no longer in production, $250 MSRP / ~ $125 used).
That being said, in comparison I think there are probably a number of small bookshelf speakers in the used $100 to $150 range that some people might prefer to these Pioneer BS22s (specifically the stock unmodified ones, which mine are).
Steve
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As Steve says.
They're sure a hell of a lot better than anything Logitech, etc. sells or any other "computer" speaker.
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My iteration on Steve's post.....my name is Steve too, so I can do this.
I have a pair on the desktop.
They are
- top of speaker at chin level
- angled up a few degrees
- 6 inches from the wall (ditto)
- 4 feet apart
- setup normally
- toed-in ~ 45 degrees
I like them a lot. Good sound and imaging for a low-fi system (playing mp3s through *gasp* the HP output of my laptop).
Also Steve
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Hi,
Would anyone have any idea about whether increasing the volume and changing the port tube on the little Pioneer sub would let me get down to ~30Hz (I just want low B, not earthquake stuff) in a moderate sized room? Any special knowledge about this particular driver?
It would be easy for me to add a section to the middle of the box or simply extend it. I don't care about the looks because I'll be refinishing it and am comfy handling any re-wiring. I'm not concerned that my time would facilitate just buying a Dayton SUB1200 or similar.
Should I post in "Enclosures" instead? I don't mind being polite ;)
Thanks ahead of time for anyone with time for a prompt reply (I'd like to take advantage of the sale),
:) Gene
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Looks like the BS 22s are back on sale....$60!
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-Designed-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B008NCD2LG/ref=lh_ni_t?tag=dealnewscom&ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
Lary
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Looks like the BS 22s are back on sale....$60!
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-Designed-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B008NCD2LG/ref=lh_ni_t?tag=dealnewscom&ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
Lary
At that price, it's like giving them away.
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?
They are $126.99.
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Looks like another of Amazon's 'blink and you'll miss it' sales.... :(
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How long do the 22's take to break in? I have a new pair of C22's (that I'm using as a L-R stereo pair) I've been breaking in for about 8 hours and they seem constricted and maybe bright compared to my old B41's. Or maybe they are different animals.
If they don't sound good out of the box, they're not going to sound good. The bass will get slightly deeper after some flexing--we're probably talking minutes rather than hours--but there's nothing else that will change with use. The only thing that will change is your subjective opinion based on acclimation to a different sound. I've done controlled experiments with break-in, and worked with dozens and dozens of the monitors, centers, and towers. The stock units don't change. My modded units don't change.
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Dennis, you are awesome. Thanks for being a voice of reason in a sea of snake oil and BS. All this talk of 200 hour break-in makes me sick. I recall the thread on Audiohaulics in which you actually did a controlled test with those Cambridge speakers and showed there was no qualitative or measurable break-in on speakers in which people swore we're making drastic changes after hundreds of hours of break-in.
Measurements are the enemy of people who want to believe in snake oil and fantasy. It always makes me laugh when people are confronted by bad data and they either attack or doubt the guy doing the measuring or they totally discont the value of measurements in general. Sorry for the slight detour.
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Gee I'm sorry I made you sick, did you throw up or were you just on the toilet all night. Hope you had some pepto in the house. I'll PM you before I make a post you might object to so you can avoid it, your health is my greatest concern.
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I can live with a 200 hour break-in, but those 500-1000 hour break-ins on certain caps and DAC's gets to me. :roll:
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I can live with a 200 hour break-in, but those 500-1000 hour break-ins on certain caps and DAC's gets to me. :roll:
What I really find to be a PITA is my own personal 569,400 hour break-in period. Now that things are starting to loosen up and I'm starting to relax and have fun everything's falling apart..
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Gee I'm sorry I made you sick, did you throw up or were you just on the toilet all night. Hope you had some pepto in the house. I'll PM you before I make a post you might object to so you can avoid it, your health is my greatest concern.
I wasn't referring to you! Your posts are enjoyable. My comments were about the Audiohaulics thread (unless you were on that thread). Anyway, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
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I wasn't referring to you! Your posts are enjoyable. My comments were about the Audiohaulics thread (unless you were on that thread). Anyway, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
I kind of figured my post would cause some friction. I'm sensitive about the break-in issue because you often see it cited as a reason for sticking with a speaker you don't like initially--possibly past the return-privilege period. Speakers are mechanical devices, and things will change a little with time. But not necessarily in a good direction. You should give speakers some time to cleanse your ears from whatever you were listening to. But a few days should suffice for that. The basic quality of a speaker depends on the quality of the drivers and the crossover (and box tuning, of course). It doesn't depend on break in.
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I wasn't referring to you! Your posts are enjoyable. My comments were about the Audiohaulics thread (unless you were on that thread). Anyway, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
And I was teasing, I've got a pretty thick skin. It was me on this thread that suggested a 200 hour break in might be expected with typical speakers. And actually I'm fine with the suggestion that transducer break in is all in our heads. But that there is a break in period that I definitely hear with speakers, headphones, and phono cartridges is to me a fact, I'll leave cables and electronics out of this discussion, that I refuse to deny. I will listen to arguments that it's me that's getting broken in. Regardless, it can take up to 200 hours for the process to be completed. You guys argue whether it's the speakers or my head or a little of both, which is what I suspect.
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I'm on an iPhone and it's hard to see previous posts without straining my eyes. It sucks to get old.
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Looks like they're back @ $60...but Dennis Murphy's modded ones are a whole lot better....
http://www.hhgregg.com/pioneer-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-2-in-box-price-for-each-/item/SPBS22
Lary
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the whole line of the Andrew Jones speakers are nice and are matched for HT use. i agree with all the positive comments here and just assume that people will place these on stands and away from the walls.
of course, as soon as i put my Magneplanar MMGs in their place, i had to prefer the maggies. BUT they are six times the price which makes the bs22s a true bargain. i wasn't aching for more before i made the switch.
check prices at amazon each week and the prices will go down to $90 like i paid and the link below will show the whole line of the Jones designs for pioneer. that would make a darn nice HT system:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=pioneer%20sp-bs22
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Looks like they're back @ $60...but Dennis Murphy's modded ones are a whole lot better....
http://www.hhgregg.com/pioneer-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-2-in-box-price-for-each-/item/SPBS22 (http://www.hhgregg.com/pioneer-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-2-in-box-price-for-each-/item/SPBS22)
HH Gregg is the only one who has it on sale right now - Amazon, B&H Photo, Best Buy, Frys, Newegg & Parts Express are all currently $127 - $130/pair.
Amazon has had a few "$60 sales", but they only lasted for a day or two at the most. The center and sub are also on sale, so at HH Gregg right now (or Amazon if they go back on supersale) you can get the 5.1 system for $250 (4 X BS22 @ $30/ea, C22 Center @ $50 and SW8MKII Sub @ $80).
Steve
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Looks like they're back @ $60...but Dennis Murphy's modded ones are a whole lot better....
http://www.hhgregg.com/pioneer-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-2-in-box-price-for-each-/item/SPBS22
Lary
I'll second Lary's comment on Dennis's mods. I got a stock pair and made Dennis's recommended mods (swap tweeter, add cap to x-over) and the difference is pretty noticeable. I'd say save yourself the extra hassle of doing the mods yourself and get them from Dennis. 2 pair of the mains and one of the centers with the mods, plus a GR Research sub would be a heck of a system for music or home theater.
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I'll second Lary's comment on Dennis's mods. I got a stock pair and made Dennis's recommended mods (swap tweeter, add cap to x-over) and the difference is pretty noticeable. I'd say save yourself the extra hassle of doing the mods yourself and get them from Dennis. 2 pair of the mains and one of the centers with the mods, plus a GR Research sub would be a heck of a system for music or home theater.
Thanks Lary. Just so there isn't any confusion, the mod you implemented in the field is kind of a stop-gap version for people who already have the stock Pioneers. The modded version I sell has much more extensive revisions to the crossover, plus added sound treatment for the cabinet. I know Danny at GR research sells some good stuff--just for my own edification, which subs are you recommending and how much do they cost? thanks
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Thanks Lary. Just so there isn't any confusion, the mod you implemented in the field is kind of a stop-gap version for people who already have the stock Pioneers. The modded version I sell has much more extensive revisions to the crossover, plus added sound treatment for the cabinet. I know Danny at GR research sells some good stuff--just for my own edification, which subs are you recommending and how much do they cost? thanks
Hey Dennis,
I have a pair of your modded ones. It was dlparker with the field mods and sub woofer comments.
Compared to the stock ones I had, yours are more transparent top to bottom. The top end is a significant improvement with the new tweeter and the bottom end (to 60 Hz, same as a stock pair) is cleaner and better defined. Mid range a good deal cleaner too. I highly recommend yours to anyone on the fence about buying an affordable, stand mounted speaker.
Cheers,
Lary
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Thanks Lary. Just so there isn't any confusion, the mod you implemented in the field is kind of a stop-gap version for people who already have the stock Pioneers. The modded version I sell has much more extensive revisions to the crossover, plus added sound treatment for the cabinet. I know Danny at GR research sells some good stuff--just for my own edification, which subs are you recommending and how much do they cost? thanks
Sounds like I should give your modded speakers a try. If I ever go 5.1, the ones I've got now would make good surrounds with your modded mains and center.
The sub I have (but am not using now) is a Hsu Research STF-2. The bass with an AVA Insight+ power amp is pretty impressive. I'd like to try a couple of servo subs, but that'll be after I get new mains.
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Thanks Lary. Just so there isn't any confusion, the mod you implemented in the field is kind of a stop-gap version for people who already have the stock Pioneers. The modded version I sell has much more extensive revisions to the crossover, plus added sound treatment for the cabinet. I know Danny at GR research sells some good stuff--just for my own edification, which subs are you recommending and how much do they cost? thanks
I'd be interested in hearing some recommendations for a servo-controlled sub (ideally a couple) for a small room, about 18'x14'x7'10" to match with your modded SP-BS22s.
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As I listened more last night, I got more disappointed, and I will return these speakers.
I go to my home office and work or surf the net a bit at night while listening to great imaging and detail with my EE M88 integrated and GR N3s. Then, I go to the living room and I cannot deal with the decrease in sound quality, with the pioneers, really. I would rather get a couple of N1X from GR Research, which was my original plan anyway.
But, it was worthwhile experiment.
I would like to thank Andre2 for this post. It is the first I've seen that really rejects the BS22. For those of us who haven't yet bought a pair, it's good to know both the raves and some thumbs-down about this product. (Although I'll still probably try a pair, lol)
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Amazon has them on sale today for $86.99.
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On sale at Amazon today. $86.99
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On sale at Amazon today. $86.99
And depending who you like to shop with
$87.99 - Newegg
$90.99 - B&H Photo, Best Buy (will price match) and Parts Express
Some of these vendors may not charge the sales tax in your locale that Amazon will
Steve
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I have 3 Pioneer SP-C22 centers that I want to use as fronts and center in a home theater system. Mr. Murphy seemed to indicate that these used a different Vifa tweeter and that there wasn't any need to modify the crossover. Can he or someone supply the Part# and confirm or deny about not needing mods? Thanks. 8)
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In keeping with the C&C theme, has anyone tried Ed Schilling's bucket sub with these little guys? Should be mini bucks for mega sound. :D
I don't have space for a sub or I would gladly build a pair (or two).
Cheers,
Lary
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B&H has them for $87.99 with free expedited shipping through 8/30.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=884049&gclid=CJSG-JSruMACFWho7AodjFMAOQ&Q=&is=REG&A=details (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=884049&gclid=CJSG-JSruMACFWho7AodjFMAOQ&Q=&is=REG&A=details)
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I have 3 Pioneer SP-C22 centers that I want to use as fronts and center in a home theater system. Mr. Murphy seemed to indicate that these used a different Vifa tweeter and that there wasn't any need to modify the crossover. Can he or someone supply the Part# and confirm or deny about not needing mods? Thanks. 8)
I just replied to this on the DIY page documenting the monitor mod. The short answer is--the center doesn't use a Vifa tweeter and it would benefit from switch to the Vifa with associated crossover changes.
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They are good for what you pay.But its the same in the end you get what you pay for.
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I got mine for 50 inc shipping , pretty hsrd to beat that.My much bigger Clements are god like 20 yrs old beat the pioneers in clarity , and no comparison. But it does show just how much quality my Clements have .
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Hi Dennis,
I finally got around to modding the 22's I have...I saw MCM_Fan's build thread.
Ordered the parts from Parts Express and it took about 8 hours on and off to mode them with the Radio Shack perf board method
That MFM_Fan has in his thread.
Great thread and makes it really simple for DIY'ers to do successfully.
Just have to be careful not to pool a speaker with a screwdriver!!! LOL.
The speakers to me now are quite listenable for sure, before the bass was rather boom in my room.... all that is gone now.
Think the foam padding and your woofer adjectment did the trick for me.
Thanks again for your hard work with these!
Alex
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I'm glad they turned out well and without a disaster. It's a lot of work the first few times. Although the sound treatment will help the bass a little, there's really nothing in the crossover that would fix boomy bass. All of the changes go to cleaning up the upper midrange and lower treble.
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All of the changes go to cleaning up the upper midrange and lower treble.
That's where I immediately noticed the improvement - much smoother upper mids and highs.
When I was doing my A/B comparison of the modded and unmodded speakers I tried stacking them (unmodified speakers up-side-down on top of modified speakers) and that didn't sound good at all. There was just too much of a mismatch in the upper midrange and high frequencies. I may try the stacking experiment again after I finish modding the second pair.
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I had an interesting experience this morning. Someone who owned a pair of the stock 22's and my modded version sent me his stocks for a mod job. They are very early versions from 2012. I could tell from just listening to the chirp signal from my measuring software that these were better than any I've encountered from later runs. And the measurements were by a considerable margin the best I've seen. When I opened them up and checked the wiring and crossover, everything was much neater and cleaner than the ones I've ordered. I think this is the speaker Andrew had in mind, and production must have been sourced to a different factory (factories) subsequently.
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They are very early versions from 2012. I could tell from just listening to the chirp signal from my measuring software that these were better than any I've encountered from later runs. And the measurements were by a considerable margin the best I've seen. When I opened them up and checked the wiring and crossover, everything was much neater and cleaner than the ones I've ordered. I think this is the speaker Andrew had in mind, and production must have been sourced to a different factory (factories) subsequently.
Would be interesting to see a photo comparison....
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Would be interesting to see a photo comparison....
Of the workmanship, or of the frequency response?
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Sorry, I meant a photo of the differences in the crossovers early vs. recent.
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Of the workmanship, or of the frequency response?
Both!
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Well, it's too late to show you the stock fit and finish--I've revised the crossovers and redone the innards. But I'll see if I can post the FR and a representative one of later samples.
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Well, it's too late to show you the stock fit and finish--I've revised the crossovers and redone the innards. But I'll see if I can post the FR and a representative one of later samples.
xovers and innards are all that really matter to me. I've been using a pair that I modded myself with the recommended tweeters and the .04(p?m?)f cap. They've become my main speakers. I really want to get a pair with your mods, but it's going to have to wait a while. I figure the absolute worst case scenario would be I'd like yours so much I'd just have to get your center channel modded one, use the old ones for the surrounds, and go to a 5.1 setup. Come to think of it, that's probably the best case scenario, too.
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Here are some plots I took of the earliest sample, which I just received, a fairly typical plot for the later ones, and a plot of a way-out-of-spec tweeter that occurred
maybe 5 - 10% of the time on one run of monitors. The frequency scale of the first plot ends at 20 kHz, rather than 30 kHz for the last two, but that doesn't really change anything.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106171)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106172)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106173)
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Here are some of my favorite go to high quality CD's I used to test my 52's Murphy - Under The Dome - Crossover. :thumb: My main problem with these speakers was the sibilance it caused on some material. It really made me irritated to hear it, so I contacted Mr. Murphy after seeing Z's glowing review http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/87887-murphyblaster-pioneer-bs22-dna-speaker.html to see if he could do something about it. Yeah I know some recordings are just recorded this way. He said no promises but I will take a look. He kept in contact via email with me as everything progressed and also sent me stats sheets before and after. I got them back in less than 2 weeks. Right away I noticed more Clarity and Sibilance not as aggravating as before. It was really toned down. The new Dome Tweeter and Crossover did the trick. Mr. Murphy also sent me a demo of various songs, which I really liked. I'm hoping he can share the artists. Sorry I'm not very technical, so I can go as deep as Z(AH forum) and the others here. All I know is that I'm happy and I highly recommend you get these or the 22's at his site: Philharmonic Audio or email: info@philharmonicaudio.com
Thank you Mr. Murphy it was a pleasure corresponding with you. I'm hoping to get a pair of Murphy's bookshelf one day...hopefully if my luck turns around. :wink: Also Dennis do you mind giving me the name of the artists on the Demo CD? Thanks!
My Demo Go To's:
Nilson Matta - Playing With My Bass
Ndea Davenport Solo CD
Al Green - Lay It Down
Isley Meets Bacharah
Luis Miguel - Romance
Charlie Hagan - Nocturne
Jose Roberto Bertrami - Things Are Different
Nilson Matta & Roni Ben-Hur - Mojave
Elvis Presley - Elvis Is Back and From Elvis In Memphis.
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Anyone compared these to a GR-Research modified pair of Insignia NS-B2111 bookshelfs? I have a pair of those I've been thinking about getting the mod kit (http://gr-research.com/insigniaupgrade.aspx) for, but if these Pioneer BS22s are better than modded NS-B2111s I'll save my time and money and just get the Pioneers.
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I had an interesting experience this morning. Someone who owned a pair of the stock 22's and my modded version sent me his stocks for a mod job. They are very early versions from 2012. I could tell from just listening to the chirp signal from my measuring software that these were better than any I've encountered from later runs. And the measurements were by a considerable margin the best I've seen. When I opened them up and checked the wiring and crossover, everything was much neater and cleaner than the ones I've ordered. I think this is the speaker Andrew had in mind, and production must have been sourced to a different factory (factories) subsequently.
I've come across this thread while looking for bs-22 reviews..I heard those some while back and sounded very nice. I'm going to use the Pioneers in a desktop setup using a nad amp. I can't have it modded for now
Are the change in fr from the early 2012 units audible to the casual listener? Should I look for an early production unit?
Thanks
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I've come across this thread while looking for bs-22 reviews..I heard those some while back and sounded very nice. I'm going to use the Pioneers in a desktop setup using a nad amp. I can't have it modded for now
Are the change in fr from the early 2012 units audible to the casual listener? Should I look for an early production unit?
Thanks
The difference is definitely audible--the mid-treble will have more presence on the early run. However, all the stock units have the same moderate coloration--a murky kind of horn-like quality to the lower treble. For awhile I thought it might be harmonic distortion from the tweeter, but now I think it's caused by the wave guide that's built into the shape of the tweeter baffle. I think that's the source of the coloration.
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What do you suppose would be the effect of just swapping the stock tweeters for the Vifa units used in the DMurphy mod? No other changes?
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My pair is April 2012.They sound vey good.
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My pair is April 2012.They sound vey good.
You would get a deep suckout between 2500 Hz and 4500 Hz. You need to add a 3.9 uf capacitor in series with the Vifa's positive input terminal when you make the change. You would still need the full mod to get a truly flat response, but I think the new tweet with the cap would be an improvement over the stock.
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You would get a deep suckout between 2500 Hz and 4500 Hz. You need to add a 3.9 uf capacitor in series with the Vifa's positive input terminal when you make the change. You would still need the full mod to get a truly flat response, but I think the new tweet with the cap would be an improvement over the stock.
Thanks! I was wondering if it was worthwhile installing just the tweets until I can build the crossovers.
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I went ahead and did the whole mod. Wow, nice difference. I put them in the family room and had a tough time getting them back... I had to swap my wife a set of nice Boston A70s so I could put the SP-BS22s in the computer room as originally intended. First one took me a couple hours, second was a lot faster. Still it's a fair bit of work - Dennis was not getting rich modifying these for sale.
Thanks to DMurphy and MCM_Fan!
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I went ahead and did the whole mod. Wow, nice difference. I put them in the family room and had a tough time getting them back... I had to swap my wife a set of nice Boston A70s so I could put the SP-BS22s in the computer room as originally intended. First one took me a couple hours, second was a lot faster. Still it's a fair bit of work - Dennis was not getting rich modifying these for sale.
Thanks to DMurphy and MCM_Fan!
Thanks for the report. With the exception of the deepest bass and extreme highs above 15 kHz, the modded Pioneers actually measure flatter than some of my other speakers. They are a lot of work, though. Definitely not for the inexperienced or impatient.
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My buddy Rex says the DM Pioneers has more detail than his KEF LS-50's have. :o
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Just picked up a pair of these at Best Buy on sale $99. Curious how they compare to my "vintage" Paradigm Atoms.
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After picking up the Pioneers I stumbled across a used NAD316BEE for $160 on Craigslist. Dug out my old Sony DVPS700 and have a nice system. Amazing how how far some of the audio gear has come. I may have to start buying CDs again....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109718)
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I just bought two pairs of SP-BS22-LR over the past week locally for good price.
I must say they are far from perfect to my liking but they have a spell on me to really enjoy them! I am keen on trying the easy mod and the "fun" mod, just to fulfill my "tinkering" need. And I come from comparing with my high resolution RAAL Ribbon and higher excursion woofer monitors.
When locally available, I'm also planning to buy the Pioneer SP-SB03 Speaker Base the bedroom!
http://www.digitaltrends.com/sound-bar-reviews/pioneer-sp-sb03-review/
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Just ordered these for my daughter's 17th birthday. Excited to show her how to connect them and have the first listen with her. Will report back, however I don't expect my findings to be much different than the many positive notes already in this thread.
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Very nice cedman1.
Where will these be used? What about the amplification and source?
These are some real nice speakers. I have these and the floorstanders as well.
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guys, I have a pair of these with....DMurphy upgrades, speaker isolation stands manual and box. I bought them for the TV downstairs and my wife opted for the Pioneer Andrew Jones soundbar instead :duh:. If there is any interest let me know. No longer available
Guy
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guys, I have a pair of these with....DMurphy upgrades, speaker isolation stands manual and box. I bought them for the TV downstairs and my wife opted for the Pioneer Andrew Jones soundbar instead :duh:. If there is any interest let me know.
Guy
Just sent you a pm
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I've got a pair of the BS-22s and really like them. The highs don't really bother me, but the most negative thing about them that I hear is a bit of a nasal or cupped-hand quality, especially in the lower mids/upper bass. Do the modifications address this in any way? THANKS.
-Bob
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I've got a pair of the BS-22s and really like them. The highs don't really bother me, but the most negative thing about them that I hear is a bit of a nasal or cupped-hand quality, especially in the lower mids/upper bass. Do the modifications address this in any way? THANKS.
-Bob
I did not care for them at higher volumes until I dampened the walls. A couple of 3/4" braces inside will take care of that.
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I've got a pair of the BS-22s and really like them. The highs don't really bother me, but the most negative thing about them that I hear is a bit of a nasal or cupped-hand quality, especially in the lower mids/upper bass. Do the modifications address this in any way? THANKS.
-Bob
Hi Bob, I just did D. Murphy mods. and did not notice any nasal or cupped hand problem for the contrary I think mid and highs sound great and bass is outstanding good, the speakers are very lively , detail is jaw dropping . The BS-22s sounds amazing and incredible for only 200.00 a pair (with D, Murphy mod.).
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My buddy Rex says his KEF LS-50's is more refined, but he prefers the bigger soundstage that his DMurphey Pioneers gives him. He might be selling his KEF's soon.
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Although the SP-BS22-LR has normally gone on and off sale every few weeks, it's been a few months since there was any sale price off of the ~ $130 street price.
They are now on sale again:
Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-Designed-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B008NCD2LG/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1359680251&sr=1-1&keywords=pioneer+sp-bs22-lr) - $90 w/ free shipping (in stock)
B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Pioneer SP-BS22-LR&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top Nav-Search=) - $87 w/ free shipping (out of stock - more available soon)
Best Buy (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/pioneer-4-bookshelf-speakers-pair-black/5086955.p?id=1218610014045&skuId=5086955&st=sp-bs22-lr&cp=1&lp=1) - $91 w/ free shipping (in stock)
Amazon also has the matching SP-C22 center ($67), SP-FS52-LR floorstanders ($180) and SW-8Mk2 subwoofer ($107) on sale and the other vendors might as well, but I didn't check for these.
Steve
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Hey boys,
I just wanted to let you all know that I posted my impressions of the BS-22's on my Youtube channel. Feel free to check it out @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIsD03tcUo0
Now to give you all a heads-up; my videos are insanely basic. I follow no script and I barely edit whatever I film. My only concern is making sure that the content accurately reflects what a product can and cannot do. So erm yeah.. thanks for watching. :D
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Hey boys,
I just wanted to let you all know that I posted my impressions of the BS-22's on my Youtube channel. Feel free to check it out @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIsD03tcUo0
Now to give you all a heads-up; my videos are insanely basic. I follow no script and I barely edit whatever I film. My only concern is making sure that the content accurately reflects what a product can and cannot do. So erm yeah.. thanks for watching. :D
That's a decent review, thanks.
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Yeah, I confess it was pretty rushed.
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Dumb question, have the speakers and matching sub. Running through a laptop and a topping amp.
How do I hook the whole thing up?
Anyone else running a similar setup?
:duh:
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The question is NOT dumb!
IIRC, your Topping amp is a T-amp (a form of class D) which uses BTL topology. The sub cannot safely be connected via speaker level cables, as all the output terminals are 'hot'; i.e. there is no 'common ground' as you find in most bipolar transistor amps.
You need to either take a line level output from the computer or obtain a special adapter which will convert the speaker level amp output into line level signals which would then connect to the RCA inputs of the sub. Just connecting the speaker level output of the T-amp to the speaker level input of the sub can release the magic smoke from your amp!
Cheers, Jim
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Just connecting the speaker level output of the T-amp to the speaker level input of the sub can release the magic smoke from your amp!
Cheers, Jim
[/quote]
Good call. Audio home safety should never be ignored.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=125047)
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That's a decent review, thanks.
Yeah, nice review. My only critique would be your very last statement that you don't think anyone is going to be able to do anything similar anytime soon. I've heard Andrew Jones is about to release a $200 range speaker through Elac that everyone at the shows has been blown away by. So, maybe you should have said no one other than Andrew Jones is going to be able to do anything similar anytime soon... 8) :lol:
But seriously, thanks for the review. I've had these speakers for a couple years and agree with your findings. Very natural and integrated sound - great monitors. I even run them with the 2.5 watt Miniwatt, and they're perfect for TV watching - despite the low wattage amp and the low efficiency of the speakers. They get that midrange right, which is the key. Bass can be a bit tubby sometimes, depending on room positioning and amplification. And treble isn't that sophisticated on the stock models. But all the frequencies are balanced well with each other, and great for the price. Good stuff.
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I've been researching these but I'm thinking my best option is to just wait for the Elac??
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I've done extensive reading and have owned the Pio 22's and would say yes, wait for the Elac's - unless you really want to save the money and brace/dampen the 22's. (Though I haven't heard the Elac's.) The ELAC's would be a safer bet.
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...just wait for the Elac??
Yes. I just got an email from Elac saying they will announce in the next few weeks who and where the dealers and retailers will be.
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genjamon - Thanks for watching! I can't wait to get my ears on a set of those Elacs.
On the topic of value, I think it's important to note that the new Andrew Jones ELAC monitors will cost nearly twice as much as the Pioneers. I know that seems fairly inconsequential when it comes to "cheap n' cheerful" loudspeakers, but when you can double down on your material costs, it makes a difference. Hence why I arrived to that conclusion. :D
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I've had a pair of Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers in my shop now for a year. A small NAD receiver powers them with a Sony CD spinner and an Awia cassette deck as my sources, along with a powered Dayton 10" subwoofer. Nothing too crazy for my shop system. Surprisingly good sound from such a modest system. The SP-BS22-LR's have a lot going for them. It's one of those speaker deals that sounds to good to be true but I can testify that the performance exceeds the cost by a healthy margin. The Pioneer speakers work perfectly for me out in the shop.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/438/19960336756_8e208cf277_b.jpg)
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Once again on sale at Amazon, ends today, $89.99.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008NCD2LG?tag=slickdeals&ascsubtag=f5b602bd72c74578af1696d605a24334
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On again. Everyone should own a pair of these at this price.
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On again. Everyone should own a pair of these at this price.
Currently $87.99 with free shipping from Amazon. I already have two pair, both with the Dennis Murphy mods I described here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128301). I paid $79.99 and $65.00 for my two pair, plus the cost of the mods. I'm listening to them right now (Death Cab for Cutie's Kintsugi) and they continue to impress me. $87.99 is the lowest price I've see on them since the ridiculous sale prices a year ago when I snagged my second pair for $65.00.
Here's what I'm running them with:
(http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb414/kerrythalmann/Black_Rack_zps14l2yjov.jpg)
Top to bottom:
BIC Beam Box FM10 Directional Antenna
Apple Mac Mini mid-2007
Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 100
Acurus R10 Preamp
Magnum Dynalab FT-101A Tuner
Sony DVP-NS3100ES SACD Player
G.A.S. Son of Ampzilla Power Amp
Panamax M5300EX Power Conditioner
Speakers - Modified Pioneer SP-BS22-LR
Rack - Salamander Synergy S30
Since I have just under $1000 in the entire system, including the speaker stands, rack, cables and computer, I think it qualifies for cheap and cheerful status. Actually, I personally have less than $700 in it. The Cambridge Dacmagic 100 is the most expensive piece, and it was a Christmas present. I did not set out with a sub-$1000 budget for this system, but that's where it came out. It wasn't available at the time, but if I was looking to go even cheaper, I'd go got the Schiit ModiII Uber DAC at $149.00. That would bring my system cost down to $850.
I got lucky on many of the items. The Magnum Dynalab tuner, Panamax power conditioner, Salamander Synergy rack and speaker stands were all Goodwill finds. The Mac Mini was picked up for $60 off Craigslist, and after upgrades I installed, I still have less than $100 in the computer, including SW. The Sony SACD Player and Acurus R10 Preamp were also local Craigslists finds and very favorable prices. The Son of Ampzilla was picked up from a local vintage audio dealer. It needed some work, so I got it for $125. The work is ongoing, but it's at a listenable state for now. I'll pick up the restoration again this winter.
All that said, I'm looking to upgrade to Andrew's Elac Debut line when they come out next month. The only question is: should I go for the B5s or the slightly bigger B6s? The upgrade is not an indictment of the little Pioneers in any way. As has been mentioned, the Elac's while a tremendous bargain, are more expensive than the Pioneers (especially when they go on sale). If you can't afford the $229 price for the Elacs, definitely snag a pair of the Pioneers while they are on sale. I plan to keep one pair of the Pioneers for myself and the other pair will go to my girlfriend's little cabin in the woods. It will be interesting to do an A/B comparison between the modified Pioneers and the Elacs.
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All that said, I'm looking to upgrade to Andrew's Elac Debut line when they come out next month. The only question is: should I go for the B5s or the slightly bigger B6s? The upgrade is not an indictment of the little Pioneers in any way. As has been mentioned, the Elac's while a tremendous bargain, are more expensive than the Pioneers (especially when they go on sale). If you can't afford the $229 price for the Elacs, definitely snag a pair of the Pioneers while they are on sale. I plan to keep one pair of the Pioneers for myself and the other pair will go to my girlfriend's little cabin in the woods. It will be interesting to do an A/B comparison between the modified Pioneers and the Elacs.
That would be great if you could share your comparison thoughts when you get the ELAC speakers. As far as whether to go with the B5 or B6, the B5's were so impressive at Newport I'm not sure the B6's would be all that much better. But the price is not a huge jump and if you have a big room then maybe the B6's would be the choice but I'm thinking if the Pioneers were sufficient then the B5's will be more than enough. I have a pair of B5's on preorder and anticipate getting them in my office shop...
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I bought the parts after you posted the how-to, just have not gotten around to it. They are actually quite nice even in stock.
Currently $87.99 with free shipping from Amazon. I already have two pair, both with the Dennis Murphy mods I described here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128301). I paid $79.99 and $65.00 for my two pair, plus the cost of the mods. I'm listening to them right now (Death Cab for Cutie's Kintsugi) and they continue to impress me. $87.99 is the lowest price I've see on them since the ridiculous sale prices a year ago when I snagged my second pair for $65.00.
Here's what I'm running them with:
(http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb414/kerrythalmann/Black_Rack_zps14l2yjov.jpg)
Top to bottom:
BIC Beam Box FM10 Directional Antenna
Apple Mac Mini mid-2007
Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 100
Acurus R10 Preamp
Magnum Dynalab FT-101A Tuner
Sony DVP-NS3100ES SACD Player
G.A.S. Son of Ampzilla Power Amp
Panamax M5300EX Power Conditioner
Speakers - Modified Pioneer SP-BS22-LR
Rack - Salamander Synergy S30
Since I have just under $1000 in the entire system, including the speaker stands, rack, cables and computer, I think it qualifies for cheap and cheerful status. Actually, I personally have less than $700 in it. The Cambridge Dacmagic 100 is the most expensive piece, and it was a Christmas present. I did not set out with a sub-$1000 budget for this system, but that's where it came out. It wasn't available at the time, but if I was looking to go even cheaper, I'd go got the Schiit ModiII Uber DAC at $149.00. That would bring my system cost down to $850.
I got lucky on many of the items. The Magnum Dynalab tuner, Panamax power conditioner, Salamander Synergy rack and speaker stands were all Goodwill finds. The Mac Mini was picked up for $60 off Craigslist, and after upgrades I installed, I still have less than $100 in the computer, including SW. The Sony SACD Player and Acurus R10 Preamp were also local Craigslists finds and very favorable prices. The Son of Ampzilla was picked up from a local vintage audio dealer. It needed some work, so I got it for $125. The work is ongoing, but it's at a listenable state for now. I'll pick up the restoration again this winter.
All that said, I'm looking to upgrade to Andrew's Elac Debut line when they come out next month. The only question is: should I go for the B5s or the slightly bigger B6s? The upgrade is not an indictment of the little Pioneers in any way. As has been mentioned, the Elac's while a tremendous bargain, are more expensive than the Pioneers (especially when they go on sale). If you can't afford the $229 price for the Elacs, definitely snag a pair of the Pioneers while they are on sale. I plan to keep one pair of the Pioneers for myself and the other pair will go to my girlfriend's little cabin in the woods. It will be interesting to do an A/B comparison between the modified Pioneers and the Elacs.
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That would be great if you could share your comparison thoughts when you get the ELAC speakers. As far as whether to go with the B5 or B6, the B5's were so impressive at Newport I'm not sure the B6's would be all that much better. But the price is not a huge jump and if you have a big room then maybe the B6's would be the choice but I'm thinking if the Pioneers were sufficient then the B5's will be more than enough. I have a pair of B5's on preorder and anticipate getting them in my office shop...
I think a more interesting comparison might be between the Elacs and the newer Affordable Accuracy monitor I'm currently selling. It has a 6.5" woofer and much deeper bass response than the Pioneers. I know I'll be doing that comparison! If I think the Elac is better, I'll probably quietly retreat from the budget market. If I think my monitor is as good or better, I'll probably raise the price. :D
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Dennis,
Newer Affordable Accuracy monitor???? Will you have it at CAF this weekend?
Ron
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Dennis,
Just saw it on your website. Looks very nice. I'm gonna have to grab a pair of these!!!
Ron
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I think a more interesting comparison might be between the Elacs and the newer Affordable Accuracy monitor I'm currently selling. It has a 6.5" woofer and much deeper bass response than the Pioneers. I know I'll be doing that comparison! If I think the Elac is better, I'll probably quietly retreat from the budget market. If I think my monitor is as good or better, I'll probably raise the price. :D
Dennis,
I look forward to this comparison. Will you be comparing your new Affordable Accuracy monitors to the Elac B5 ($229.99, 5.25" woofer) or B6 ($279.99, 6.5" woofer)? Andrew is a very talented designer, no doubt about it, but he's always working within the budget/profit structure of a large corporation. That can be both good and bad. As you proved with your modifications to his Pioneer SP-BS-22-LR speakers, if you're willing to throw a little more money, and a little sweat equity at these inexpensive speakers, they can be made even better. The good news is that there are some great, affordable speakers getting more and more people, especially young people, interested in great sounding audio on a budget they can afford. Growing the market is something that benefits us all. Kudos to both you and Andrew. Keep up the good work!
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Dennis,
Newer Affordable Accuracy monitor???? Will you have it at CAF this weekend?
Ron
I'm not doing the CAF this year. Last year proved very frustrating--none of the press would go into Internet Direct rooms except for one on-line magazine, and that review never got published. But Jim Salk will be there with some nice stuff, and I'll be helping out there and making the rounds. I wish I could show off the little monitors--it would be fun to see everyone hunting for a subwoofer when I started rattling hotel room pictures with a 34 Hz test tone.
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Dennis,
I look forward to this comparison. Will you be comparing your new Affordable Accuracy monitors to the Elac B5 ($229.99, 5.25" woofer) or B6 ($279.99, 6.5" woofer)? Andrew is a very talented designer, no doubt about it, but he's always working within the budget/profit structure of a large corporation. That can be both good and bad. As you proved with your modifications to his Pioneer SP-BS-22-LR speakers, if you're willing to throw a little more money, and a little sweat equity at these inexpensive speakers, they can be made even better. The good news is that there are some great, affordable speakers getting more and more people, especially young people, interested in great sounding audio on a budget they can afford. Growing the market is something that benefits us all. Kudos to both you and Andrew. Keep up the good work!
I'll listen to the 5.25" since they're closer to the price of my monitors, which is $195/pr.
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Currently $87.99 with free shipping from Amazon.
$87.99 with Free Expedited Shipping and NO SALES TAX outside of New York State at B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Pioneer+SP-BS22-LR&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=).
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I've been researching these but I'm thinking my best option is to just wait for the Elac??
Don't mean to quote myself but I bought a set of Pioneer 41's off of eBay brand new for $40 shortly after I posted this. I have enjoyed greatly. Hooked up my dad's old technics turntable recently and have been listening to his old albums. Paired with used late 90's Sony receiver. I think it sounds great!. Really enjoying this. Had a Pioneer receiver and Polk Monitors with 6 1/2 woofers back in the early 90's that I loved. This is a great budget redo into decent audio for me after years of listening to iPod/phones etc. Really loving these speakers.
Happy listening to all. Very glad I made this purchase!
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FYI..the Pioneer set (BS22, matching center, and sub) is Amazon's deal of the day today (11/28/16)
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I think a more interesting comparison might be between the Elacs and the newer Affordable Accuracy monitor I'm currently selling. It has a 6.5" woofer and much deeper bass response than the Pioneers. I know I'll be doing that comparison! If I think the Elac is better, I'll probably quietly retreat from the budget market. If I think my monitor is as good or better, I'll probably raise the price. :D
If you decide to offer an Elac version of the Affordable Accuracy monitors, I'll probably spring for a pair. And I'll testify to the great value of the current AA monitors, as well as the previous (Pioneer) versions.
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The tweeter positve has the stripe, and it terminates with the largest terminal. I wouldn't clip the resistor. I'm finding that a little bright, and it measures brighter than my simulations indicated. There may be
some side effects from clipping that resistor due to the layout of the printed circuit board.
Hi,
can some please confirm the steps for the basic tweeter mod:
1> Change tweeter to recommended vifa
2> Add 4uf cap in series with the tweeter positive terminal
3> Remove the 0.33ohm resistor - this is not clear - in one place it is mentioned by DMurphy that it needs to be removed in another post he says it can be left as it is ?
Thanks
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For anybody interested in just the tweeter mod:
I snipped the 0.33ohm resistor and it made the speakers very very bright, I had to solder them back. Now the mod seems to be a good one. For a brief time I thought I screwed a decent set of speakers :)
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If I recall, from conversation with Dennis in 2014, the towers can't be modded as easily with this cheap mod. Something about the top "woofer" causing too much added treble. Anyone done the "easy mod" on the towers and find benefit?
Decided to go ahead and order the parts and try the "easy mod" on the towers and the center. Why not, got all the parts for $60 shipped from Parts Express and it'll be fun to see what it does.
I'm curious, some folks are discussing a 4.0uF cap however Dennis used the 3.9uF from Audyn. Assuming the .1 won't be discernible but curious why the diff? Folks just going for cheapest and rounded up? :)
For anybody interested in just the tweeter mod:
I snipped the 0.33ohm resistor and it made the speakers very very bright, I had to solder them back. Now the mod seems to be a good one. For a brief time I thought I screwed a decent set of speakers :)
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So, bought three tweeters caps and screws. Did the "easy mod" of the 3.9uf cap and Peerless tweeter and - I don't like it! Disappointed, as I expected an improvement over stock, maybe I'm just used to the original sound. Hard to describe, there is more "presence" with the original tweeters and listening to something like Dave Mathews playing some nice licks doesn't sound as forward with the Peerless tweeters. Mine are from Dec 2012, maybe some of the first batches and the tweeters were better then? Who knows... Anywho, I have a pair of 22's we use for gaming, etc. perhaps I'll put the Peerless in those and move the towers down stairs for gaming (have a Dayton sub I can use with the 22's). If I don't, glad to send them to someone for less than new if Parts Express doesn't take them back or charges restock or some such!
I'm going to keep the 3rd one to upgrade the center channel, seems to help there with a bit more clarity.
Perhaps I'm just totally ruined now anyway, I meandered into Best Buy's "Magnolia" room and heard these for the first time (I haven't gone real speaker shopping since buy New Large Advents in 1978): https://www.bowerswilkins.com/home-audio/804-d3 Even made my wife say, impulsively, "How much are THOSE, I REALLY like them!" If only...
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So, bought three tweeters caps and screws. Did the "easy mod" of the 3.9uf cap and Peerless tweeter and - I don't like it! Disappointed, as I expected an improvement over stock, maybe I'm just used to the original sound. Hard to describe, there is more "presence" with the original tweeters and listening to something like Dave Mathews playing some nice licks doesn't sound as forward with the Peerless tweeters. Mine are from Dec 2012, maybe some of the first batches and the tweeters were better then? Who knows... Anywho, I have a pair of 22's we use for gaming, etc. perhaps I'll put the Peerless in those and move the towers down stairs for gaming (have a Dayton sub I can use with the 22's). If I don't, glad to send them to someone for less than new if Parts Express doesn't take them back or charges restock or some such!
I'm going to keep the 3rd one to upgrade the center channel, seems to help there with a bit more clarity.
Perhaps I'm just totally ruined now anyway, I meandered into Best Buy's "Magnolia" room and heard these for the first time (I haven't gone real speaker shopping since buy New Large Advents in 1978): https://www.bowerswilkins.com/home-audio/804-d3 Even made my wife say, impulsively, "How much are THOSE, I REALLY like them!" If only...
The 'easy' mod creates a mild dip from 6-9khz vs. the original which instead rises in that range - so yes, it appears you got used to the original voicing.
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Anyone have Dennis' schematic for this?
...
His work on the Pioneer 52 is even more amazing, he takes this speaker from unlistenable to damn good.
Frank Van Alstine
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He is pretty good about sharing his designs, send him an email. And offer a donation to his favorite charity. These, by the way, were on sale for $79 each shipped a week ago.