AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: xsb7244 on 23 Jan 2007, 04:23 am
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Danny,
What mods to the Dac-60 does Sonic Craft offer and can you give a description?
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The power supply for the DAC chips, audio circuit, and B+ receive filter mods and improvements via Rel Polystyrenes and Black Gates. The Coupling positions received a big dose of the good stuff via increased values of Sonicap with Platinum bypasses. One of the BG caps alone, sells at Michael Percy's for $94 (PCX for $90 plus duty) while the two Platinums are $58. All in all it gets about $250 worth of upgraded parts alone.
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Danny
Do you have a status update on the DAC-60 USB input?
Thanks,
Jim
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I WISH I could get an update on the USB port status.
Hang in there and I'll let you know something as soon as I do.
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Danny,
what happened to the Dac-60 Sonic Craft super mod for under $1500? some rich guy might want this mod.
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It is still in the works and has been in the A/B comparisons stage for quite a while (carefully choosing the right parts). It will be out soon.
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I WISH I could get an update on the USB port status.
Hang in there and I'll let you know something as soon as I do.
Thanks Danny.
Do you know if it will be a USB->i2s implementation? I believe the DAC-60 is a good candidate for this.
-Jim
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I have been waiting on the manufacturer to complete the USB input direct to I2S for some time now. We are now also looking into other options to implement this into the DAC-60.
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Danny,
The Sonic Craft basic mod of the DAC 60 looks like a very successful mod. The up and coming super mod
of the DAC 60 will be a winner. Can you talk about the time and effort required for this super mod?
To create this super mod did it take a year of research and testing to get it right? And finally what are you
trying to accomplish with this mod?
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The Sonic Craft basic mod of the DAC 60 looks like a very successful mod.
It's a bang for the buck mod that does the most good for the least amount of money.
Can you talk about the time and effort required for this super mod?
It has actually taken a long time because we have been A/B comparing different types of parts and tubes. I guess I have A/B'ed about 20 different types of tubes. Sometimes the most expensive parts (or tubes) are not necessarily the parts that sound the best. We spend a ton of time listening. I get two units handed to me at once. One has a Silver face plate and one has a Black face plate. I then burn each unit in for several days. Then hours are spent A/B comparing them and taking notes. I then give Jeff the feedback. I never know what is done to either unit.
To create this super mod did it take a year of research and testing to get it right?
To make it as good as it can be does take a long time. I don't want to throw something out there just to get it out there and then it not be as good as it can be and fall short of something else. Jeff (Sonic Craft) is actually having some application specific caps made just for this unit that will not be offered for sale or used in anything else.
And finally what are you trying to accomplish with this mod?
A DAC so good that it will be tough to beat regardless of price and still bring it in at a reasonable price point.
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What's the ballpark on a complete unit with super mods? I don't currently own any outboard DAC but am looking.
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Will there be a mod to give the DAC banced input and output?
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What's the ballpark on a complete unit with super mods?
I can't answer that yet. I don't know what it's going to cost yet and so far I am oblivious to what mads have been done to the ones I am A/B'ing.
Will there be a mod to give the DAC banced input and output?
No, but we are working on a USB input.
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This GR dac-60 looks like a good deal! But may I ask :oops: how it stacks up against the Pacific Valve versions? Their modded 60 and the 62? And what about the dac68?
Also, I'm still wondering about the sound difference with the dac38. I like deep, punchy bass. I play stuff like Steely Dan and lots of 80s music, new wave. And some female vocalists...
Thanks for any info, jan
http://www.last.fm/user/jmourik/
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No, but we are working on a USB input.
[/quote]\
USBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBB ...hopefully soon
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This GR dac-60 looks like a good deal! But may I ask how it stacks up against the Pacific Valve versions? Their modded 60 and the 62? And what about the dac68?
Some of those mods were actually old factory options. Most of the rest of the mods are fairly basic and not taken as far as they could be. It appears to me that they are selling the upgrades by simply listing a lot of changes that are not necessarily much of an improvement. The DAC-68 is actually a step backwards. That chip set doesn't sound near as good and is simply an up-sampled 16 bit chip.
We are about to offer 3 levels of mods based on the extensive A/B comparisons made with the Super DAC research.
The first level (stage 1) will be the best bang for the buck mods that can be done to it. It will be $295. for this upgrade level and I guarantee it to easily exceed ANY other mods offered by anyone (aside from Steve Nugents $3,000. upgrade). What I will not do though is list the mods done to it. No sense in giving away the farm, but I will guaranteed no better performance at its price.
These mods will also exceed the performance of our previously offered mods by a notable margin. We will also offer an upgrade to those that purchased the previous upgrade for cost of parts only ($50. plus the shipping cost).
The second level mods (stage 2) will take it up a notch again but may be about double the cost.
The third level (stage 3 or super DAC level) will take it as far as possible given this circuit design. This will even include capacitors made specifically for this application. Price is yet to be determined.
None of the mods will include a detail of information for our competitors. You'll just be given a guarantee that it can't be beat.
On top of those mods we will also offer a USB interface that can be added to any version of the unit. Just don't ask when it will be available. I don't know. Whenever Jeff (Sonic Craft) gets finished with it.
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Danny,
what is your opinion about this? I was curious about you not importing and offering the DAC-192 for
$1,750.00. How does this DAC-192 compare to the DAC-60?
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Danny,
what is your opinion about this? I was curious about you not importing and offering the DAC-192 for
$1,750.00. How does this DAC-192 compare to the DAC-60?
And it seems nobody wants to touch the dac38? Isn't that the same as the dac60 minus tubes?
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The DAC-192 is an up-sampled 16 bit chip design just like the DAC-68, except it has a separate power supply and uses a solid state output instead of tubes. I think I'll pass on it.
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The first level (stage 1) will be the best bang for the buck mods that can be done to it. It will be $295. for this upgrade level and I guarantee it to easily exceed ANY other mods offered by anyone (aside from Steve Nugents $3,000. upgrade). What I will not do though is list the mods done to it. No sense in giving away the farm, but I will guaranteed no better performance at its price.
Danny, when can we order the dac60 with this new $295 mod? I decided I want one...
jan
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You can order them now. Stage 1 mods are available. Call to order.
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On top of those mods we will also offer a USB interface that can be added to any version of the unit. Just don't ask when it will be available. I don't know. Whenever Jeff (Sonic Craft) gets finished with it.
Here's hoping Sonic Craft is working on USB-I2S-1704 chip implementation instead of the usual USB-spdif-spdif receiver-1704 implementation :thankyou:
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IS2 direct. No SPDIF.
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IS2 direct. No SPDIF.
Danny, this will be a killer DAC!! :D
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I compared the dac60 to a PS Audio dlIII today. The dac60 is a slightly modded version, mods done by the owner. I found them very comparable, hardly any difference. I'm hoping the stage 1 mods take the dac60 past the dlIII. I ordered the dac60 today...
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IS2 direct. No SPDIF.
Danny,
Is DAC 60 with stage 1 mod and USB I2S implementation ready yet? If so, how much will it be? If not, is there any projected release date?
Thanks.
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Stage 1 mods are available and kicking butt. The USB is still in the works, but getting close. I really can't set a date as it is not within my hands. Jeff says it is close though and a few weeks out. We are also debating whether to add that input in place of the fiber octave input or add it in addition to that input and have to add a new switching mechanism.
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... We are also debating whether to add that input in place of the fiber octave input or add it in addition to that input and have to add a new switching mechanism.
Danny, thanks for the update. I personally won't miss out much if the optic connector is replaced by the USB I2S. If it is not going to increase the cost substantially and a high quality, non-sonic compromising switching mechanism is added, it will be good to add another or two digital RCA inputs to grant switching among multiple sources (i.e. DTV receiver, PS2/PS3, etc).
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My Paradisea DAC has a BNC, an RCA and an optical input. It's quite fun to have all those because I can use the BNC with my Squeezebox, the RCA with my tv decoder and the optical with my DVD player. So, IMO, if you can leave the optical without too much cost then it's a value add option!
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Do you anticipate that your level 3 mod will surpass Steve N.'s mods?
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Obviously the goal of the stage 3 mod is to outperform anything at any price point.
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Thank you and hurry up and get'er dun! :thumb:
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Stage 2 and stage 3 mods should be completed by the end of this month.
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Obviously the goal of the stage 3 mod is to outperform anything at any price point.
Hum, for some reason this sounds good. Hopefully the price point is still below all the price point it will outperform! :icon_lol: :thumb:
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Hopefully the price point is still below all the price point it will outperform!
That is a goal as well. In fact it will be well under the fore mentioned (easily less than half).
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Hopefully the price point is still below all the price point it will outperform!
That is a goal as well. In fact it will be well under the fore mentioned (easily less than half).
I failed to find the fore mentioned price which makes dividing by two a bit difficult. Did I miss something as to its projected cost?
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The afore mentioned DAC was mentioned by you. It's price is shown here in a review.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/empirical2/spoiler.html
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The afore mentioned DAC was mentioned by you. It's price is shown here in a review.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/empirical2/spoiler.html
BIG error in communication! Danny I misinterpreted your statement saying that it would come in at less than half, as pertaining to some past previous price projection by you. And this I was searaching for in vein. In reality you were saying it could come in at half (or less), of the price of Steve's. That's a good deal! Sorry for the misunderstanding. :oops:
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I'm still sitting on the fence waiting for a USB-IS2 input. Will the input be offered as a retrofit for current units or factory ordered?
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If you didn't order your DAC-60 with the USB port input it can be added on later.
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Danny, any update on the status of the usb port?
Thanks!
Jim
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Stage 2 and stage 3 mods should be completed by the end of this month.
Danny can you update us on the availability status of the stage 2 and stage 3 mods please? Thanks.
Paul
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Still no news?
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I'd also be interested in these mods?? Any new news? :drool:
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As much as I'd like to say that the stage 2 mod will be available on such and such date, I really can't.
Jeff has a pair ready for me to pick up again. I have to get them, burn them in for 25 hours then A/B them taking notes as to the strengths or weaknesses of each...
This isn't one of those deals where we swap out this or that parts with what we think are better and call it a great mod. We want this to be the most worth while mod that it can be and that means really listening to know what type of parts will make the most difference and what parts will have the best synergy with this DAC.
If you are in hurry and can't wait then don't. Order one now with a stage 1 mod. It is the most bang for the buck by far of anything that could be done to this DAC. Then you can send it in later for further stages of mods.
We were hoping to have this stage finished at the end of last month, but it just didn't happen. There are other things that we really want to try. I don't want to have to tell someone that , oh yea, we figured out a way to make it better after we have already sold it to our customers. I don't want there to be a new mod every month.
With what is being done to the DAC in the stage 2 mod, I would expect the price to come in at around the $1,800 to $2,000 range (including the price of the DAC).
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Quality and speed are most of the time going against each other. Your strategy is good Danny, don't compromise quality just to get the product out quickly, we are always too impatient in our modern world, we don't appreciate enough the value of quality and the time it takes to achieve it.
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YOU BET! I think we all agree its better to do something really right as opposed to really quick!
Paul
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The DAC-60 Level 1 moded unit with the Electra Interconnects are here and broken in for 30 hours. Having fun comparing it to my other DAC's and transports. Sounds very good so far. :D
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The DAC-60 Level 1 moded unit with the Electra Interconnects are here and broken in for 30 hours. Having fun comparing it to my other DAC's and transports. Sounds very good so far. :D
Would you mind sharing more about the sound of level 1 mod? Does yours have I2S input? Thanks.
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My DAC-60 Level 1 mod unit does not have an USB or I2S Bus input. Using the Coaxial input.
Been very busy lately. Still doing listening trials.
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Anything new on level 2 and 3 mods?
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I just finished A/B'ing the Silver one and the Black one again, took notes, and reported my findings. They go back to Sonic Craft today. Slowly but surely we are figuring out what sounds best, and what parts will be used in the final design.
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Anyone care to comment on the Level 1 Mod to the DAC 60?
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Its been a month or so since any word on the level 2 and 3 mods. How are they progressing?
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Slowly, I take it? :roll:
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Slower than I'd like.
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Another month has passed. Any new timetable on mod 3 availability? Thanks.
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That is funny, I was just on the phone with Jeff over the last hour discussing this.
We have really nailed some areas of major improvements on this thing and it is really going to be special. I am taking one with me to the RMAF that has about 75% of the new mods in it. I can't believe how much better it sounds over a stock unit.
Jeff says there is still about 6 more things he wants to try first before finalizing the end result just to see if it can be improved further still in those areas.
We are both ready to get it finished and out there and i will be back to comparing two units as soon as I get back from the RMAF.
As far as a release date though I really can't say yet.
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Will there be a mod option to have both balanced and unbalanced outputs that can be used simultaneously?
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There will not be a version with balanced outputs.
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Any news on the I2S front, Danny? And for the heck of it, cause others want to know, any news on the mod 2 and mod 3? I'm leaning toward getting one of these soon, but can wait if the I2S will be implemented "soon".
Gary
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Any updates on the timeline for the DAC-60 mod 2, mod 3, USB to I2S?
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Sorry for the delay in getting this done, but it is not in my hands. Jeff says stage 2 mod will be ready before the end of the year. He had also mentioned the same thing about the USB input. I don't know if he is still on target with it or not but will ask him about it.
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What is the output voltage of the DAC-60 after the mods?
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Sorry for the delay in getting this done, but it is not in my hands. Jeff says stage 2 mod will be ready before the end of the year. He had also mentioned the same thing about the USB input. I don't know if he is still on target with it or not but will ask him about it.
Has there been any progress over the past 60 days?
Paul
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I don't think the output voltage has changed.
Sorry guys, Jeff is still working on it. I know he was supposed to be finished with it by now. He got a little overwhelmed with other jobs and amps to upgrade. I can't push him any harder on this I just have to give him time to get it done.
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Is there any news regarding the DAC-60 stage 2 or 3 mods ?
Maybe I've missed something in the 11 months since the last posting?
Happy Holidays to all-Joel
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Is there any news regarding the DAC-60 stage 2 or 3 mods ?
Maybe I've missed something in the 11 months since the last posting?
Happy Holidays to all-Joel
Ditto (except the part about me being Joel)
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Sorry for the delay.
Finalizing the stage 2 mod took much longer than anticipated and it was decided to see just how far it could go. The result is a world class DAC that has taken this platform about as far as it can go. It doesn't even sound like a digital playback system anymore. It sounds analog all the way. In fact it sounds like a great analog system.
Cost for all of this is going to make the unit $1,995. complete and ready to go.
This does not include a USB input. At some point Jeff at Sonic Craft will get that figured out and included as well. If the USB is important to you then you'll have to be patient as Jeff only works on this when he can. He has capacitors to design that takes up a lot of his time.
I have a couple of units on hand that can be upgraded pretty quickly if anyone is ready to give one a shot.
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Danny:
I have the upgraded DAC I bought from you a couple of years ago. Can this be sent back for the recent upgrade?
Tom
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Sure.
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Danny.......what do you think that price will be?????????????????????????????????
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Take the $1,995 total for the stage 2 modded DAC and deduct what you already spent on the DAC with the stage 1 mod and that will be your upgrade cost.
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Danny.........uhhhhhhhhh........you wouldn't happen to have a record of that transaction would you???????????
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If you bought it from me then I sure will.
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Yes, I did buy them from you........
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Take the $1,995 total for the stage 2 modded DAC and deduct what you already spent on the DAC with the stage 1 mod and that will be your upgrade cost.
That's a fair chunk o' change. What's invlved with the stage 2 mod?
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The Stage 2 mod changed just about everything.
Art was just here and left with mine. Maybe he can give you guys some comparisons and feedback pretty soon.
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some people think $5,000 Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC is the best. is your mod just as good? this is not fast food. testing,testing,
and more testing and yet more testing. the years go by and finally it is here. Danny you said a DAC so good that it will be tough to beat regardless of price and still bring it in at a reasonable price point. you and Sonic Craft have worked very hard to produce this mod.
would it be fair to say that a mod of this quality cannot be completed in a year? thanks for working so long on this mod.
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some people think $5,000 Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC is the best. is your mod just as good?
If we are lucky we can find out. I feel good about it being compared to anything.
Yes, it did take a while. Countless hours were spent A/B comparing different parts and tubes.
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Did Art post any updates on his DAC-60 Level II listening impressions?
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Nope, I didn't even ask him to.
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Danny,
Can you give us an update on what mods are available for the DAC-60?
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We decided to back off going further with the DAC-60.
It was difficult to deal directly with the company that makes them and they were unresponsive to our request to have units made for us in a custom fashion.
I have two units left.
One with a Silver face plate has the stage 1 mod plus various extras that are too numerous to list. I'd take $1,200 for it.
The other unit has a Black face plate and has an all out assault on the upgrades. It took months to determine the best parts to use in each location. The result is outstanding. The goodies that it is loaded with dictates a $2,000 price point.
If you are interested in either of them then let me know.