[doug s.]

i would start w/this, & upgrade it as funds allow.  2bigears, in your case, you could get all the upgrades now!     won't sound to shabby as-is...  $650 w/no arm:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1219156969


doug s.

[doug s.]

i would start w/this, & upgrade it as funds allow.  2bigears, in your case, you could get all the upgrades now!     won't sound too shabby as-is...  $650 w/no arm:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1219156969


doug s.

[2bigears]

   i saw that Doug,you do like those decks,not really plug and play for a lazy ass like me.And thank-you Jeff for those 2 weeks,the 'not even close' is comfort as the P9 is on an airplane headed my way   should be fun.

[TheChairGuy]

We also found out that the 1200, when close attention was payed to setup
was capable of a lot more sound than we intially thought, again showing
what a bargain this deck truly is.  It's just that most people aren't going to
go buy 1000 dollars worth of test equipment to dial in a 300 dollar table.

But if you already have this stuff around, much more can be pulled out
of this humble deck, as you can with the rega p3.  These two are probably
the best bang for the buck tables on the market today....

Well, that's the results of two weeks of screwing around in my life...

Great report, Jeff - thanks for the utter honesty and slight reversal your original position on the SL-1200.

I am now steadfast that the annoying sonic artifact that I hear with my SL-1200 (with an Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III) arm is likely a loose motor housing and additional rumble being fed back into the sonic chain.  I'll have to tidy that up with the outboard KAB motor mod or a new deck to try one day soon 

John

[TONEPUB]

No problem.

What I'm trying to say (and I think I'm failing at it..)

is that the SL1200 is an excellent turntable and an
excellent value.

What I see so much in this world of ours is that people
want to believe that what they have is the "best" and especially
better than what someone else spent more money on.

My job is to investigate everything and the hardest part is
to put a value on what this stuff costs.  I got some big
grenades launched at me last issue, (especially by the
mfr) for saying I didn't feel the 56 thousand dollar continuum
was not worth the money.

If you are like Wayner and many others that say you are
extremely happy with your LP setup, no matter what the
cost, I say stop there!

I know my advertisers don't like it when I say that, but
seriously, I've spent years of agonizing over this stuff
and if you've got something that is working great, have
a drink and stop worrying about gear!!

There have been too many times that I've had a system
right at that point and tried to get more only to miss the
mark, or merely get different instead of better.

Again, you have to remember my perspective is to
investigate and quantify things as much as we can.

So if you ask me "Is the SL1200 a great table and a
great value?" I'll say yes every time.

And thanks to the interaction with the people out here,
I used to be someone that used to turn their nose up
at a 1200 (even though it was my first table, many years ago).

But after seeing the enthusiasm here, it made me and
our other writer Marc Phillips get 1200's and play with
them.  Now that we have one in regular rotation, it's very
easy to compare it to something else and there have been
many times that I've recommended a 1200 over a P3.

It's all about finding the right gear for YOU, not me.

So I hope this makes some sense.  This is one of the main
reasons I hang out here.  I'm always intrigued with what's
getting a lot of buzz. Some of it I agree with, some of it
I don't, but that's what makes this fun!

[ecramer]

Thanks Tonepub that really hit the nail on the head merely get different instead of better. this so so true when your system reaches a certain point. I keep looking at turntables and waffeling about what price point i should jump into and i'm beging to think you and the chair guy are going to talk me right into a kbmod 1200

ed

No problem.

What I'm trying to say (and I think I'm failing at it..)

is that the SL1200 is an excellent turntable and an
excellent value.

What I see so much in this world of ours is that people
want to believe that what they have is the "best" and especially
better than what someone else spent more money on.

My job is to investigate everything and the hardest part is
to put a value on what this stuff costs.  I got some big
grenades launched at me last issue, (especially by the
mfr) for saying I didn't feel the 56 thousand dollar continuum
was not worth the money.

If you are like Wayner and many others that say you are
extremely happy with your LP setup, no matter what the
cost, I say stop there!

I know my advertisers don't like it when I say that, but
seriously, I've spent years of agonizing over this stuff
and if you've got something that is working great, have
a drink and stop worrying about gear!!

There have been too many times that I've had a system
right at that point and tried to get more only to miss the
mark, or merely get different instead of better.

Again, you have to remember my perspective is to
investigate and quantify things as much as we can.

So if you ask me "Is the SL1200 a great table and a
great value?" I'll say yes every time.

And thanks to the interaction with the people out here,
I used to be someone that used to turn their nose up
at a 1200 (even though it was my first table, many years ago).

But after seeing the enthusiasm here, it made me and
our other writer Marc Phillips get 1200's and play with
them.  Now that we have one in regular rotation, it's very
easy to compare it to something else and there have been
many times that I've recommended a 1200 over a P3.

It's all about finding the right gear for YOU, not me.

So I hope this makes some sense.  This is one of the main
reasons I hang out here.  I'm always intrigued with what's
getting a lot of buzz. Some of it I agree with, some of it
I don't, but that's what makes this fun!

[TONEPUB]

One thing we didn't even mention is how much music
do you have and what shape is it in?

[lazydays]

setup right the P9 will smoke the Technics anyday of the week!! And twice on Sunday!
gary

in your opinion?   

in my opinion that might be true - if the technics were not "set up right"...   

doug s.

you might tell that to some folks, but I know the difference cause I've owned two of them. And there are still a couple laying around in the family. If you just gotta have a direct table, then look for a good Micro Seiki.
gary

[doug s.]

setup right the P9 will smoke the Technics anyday of the week!! And twice on Sunday!
gary

in your opinion?   

in my opinion that might be true - if the technics were not "set up right"...   

doug s.

you might tell that to some folks, but I know the difference cause I've owned two of them. And there are still a couple laying around in the family. If you just gotta have a direct table, then look for a good Micro Seiki.
gary

i've not owned them, but i have heard them, & properly set up, they're pretty damned nice.  i never heard a kabusa iteration, which is supposed to make them even better.

as always, ymmv...

doug s.

[Wayner]

TONEPUB,

I think we are on the same page, but I want to make my point a little clearer. I don't think my tables are the best out there, nor am I completely satisfied with their performance. I can appreciate the VPI Black Knight or a P9 or a high end Nottingham or Oracle, Linn or Basis there are so many out there. My goal is to understand the geometry of all of these machines and dissect them and digest them until I understand them completely. I'm, shall we say, working from the bottom up. Through tweaking, I have a least 5 completely different tables sounding almost the same. That means I'm either doing something right or I'm really lucky. I don't believe in luck.

I do have some plans to build a table. With the help of some of my friends, I have high hopes in dialing the tolerances to .00001", to a Baerwald perfect alignment. I doubt it has been done yet. While platter weight, speed stability, outboard vibration influences all have a role in proper (or skewed) playback of vinyl, I believe that cartridge alignment and position relative to pivot are ultra-critical. It's like playing with your speakers, moving the toe angle in or out, tipping them up or a little down, then suddenly, the sound stage opens up so wide you could crawl right in. That is what I want.

As time and fashion are starting to prove, There is a tremendous amount of information on a groove of vinyl. I think in the early days they had no idea. I think one of the major reasons for vinyls' comeback (to some never left) is a way better cartridge and stylus that is affordable.

As all of us learn from each other about various tweaks and alignment procedures, we are advancing as a group. I've learned alot from this forum from quite a few and I hope they can say the same for me. I always come down to one small problem with the high dollar machine. CAN YOU HANDLE IT? Can you set it up with confidence, or surely what a waste of time.

Wayner  

[TheChairGuy]

Thanks Tonepub that really hit the nail on the head merely get different instead of better. this so so true when your system reaches a certain point. I keep looking at turntables and waffeling about what price point i should jump into and i'm beging to think you and the chair guy are going to talk me right into a kbmod 1200

ed

Hey Ed,

Just so you know...I have a very, very old and worn SL-1200 Mk. II that I bought on ebay for $160 or something.  It had a hard life indeed in the past.  Further, the guy that sent it to me (3000 miles away) put it in the flimsiest box you've ever seen a TT lay in...and the arm (which I suspected worked beforehand was crushed).

Rather than complaining (it was a running TT and I bought it for only $160) I bought an Origin Live tonearm mount (to fit Rega and Rega mount arms).  I used it for a time with an uber-modded RB250 and then an Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III (a $3K tonearm )

I've reported that it was good indeed....but had an annoying sound that I couldn't rid the deck of (even tho I was not using the stock tonearm...the part that normally receives the most criticism about it in forums...incorrectly or not  )

But, and this is a very big BUT(T), my Technics was so horribly mistreated in past live(s) that the motor has probably shaken loose from the housing and causing considerable rumble back into the playback.

So - my results may in fact be a-typical from a high-quality stock SL-1200. 

Highly compliant feet in place of the stock ones, at the very least, seem to be in order to improve it.  The KAB damping pot will steer away all manners of vibrational energy away from your stylus/tonearm and is likely a great addition (and at $150.00 and totally DIY very reasonably priced).  The outboard motor and strobe disabler is $300, and unless you are skilled technically, best left for KAB to do.

Finally, or perhaps done before anything else, is changing out the stock rubber mat to something that deadens the platter and interfaces with your records better.  A Herbie's Way Excellent top mat and Isoplatmat sub-mat would run $175.00 and be a decidedly good upgrade.

Once you spring for the $500 table, you can build your Technics to higher spec a couple hundred at a time. $800 in add-ons + the $500 deck will likely get you a surprising amount of table for what passes for chump change these days.

So, you may well like your 'next TT' choice as a Technics SL-1200...especially at such a light price to start.

Enjoy - John

[TONEPUB]

TONEPUB,

I think we are on the same page, but I want to make my point a little clearer. I don't think my tables are the best out there, nor am I completely satisfied with their performance. I can appreciate the VPI Black Knight or a P9 or a high end Nottingham or Oracle, Linn or Basis there are so many out there. My goal is to understand the geometry of all of these machines and dissect them and digest them until I understand them completely. I'm, shall we say, working from the bottom up. Through tweaking, I have a least 5 completely different tables sounding almost the same. That means I'm either doing something right or I'm really lucky. I don't believe in luck.

I do have some plans to build a table. With the help of some of my friends, I have high hopes in dialing the tolerances to .00001", to a Baerwald perfect alignment. I doubt it has been done yet. While platter weight, speed stability, outboard vibration influences all have a role in proper (or skewed) playback of vinyl, I believe that cartridge alignment and position relative to pivot are ultra-critical. It's like playing with your speakers, moving the toe angle in or out, tipping them up or a little down, then suddenly, the sound stage opens up so wide you could crawl right in. That is what I want.

As time and fashion are starting to prove, There is a tremendous amount of information on a groove of vinyl. I think in the early days they had no idea. I think one of the major reasons for vinyls' comeback (to some never left) is a way better cartridge and stylus that is affordable.

As all of us learn from each other about various tweaks and alignment procedures, we are advancing as a group. I've learned alot from this forum from quite a few and I hope they can say the same for me. I always come down to one small problem with the high dollar machine. CAN YOU HANDLE IT? Can you set it up with confidence, or surely what a waste of time.

Wayner  

Can handle it no prob.  This is what I do for a living, every day, 8-12 hours a day.

[SCompRacer]

No problem.

What I'm trying to say (and I think I'm failing at it..).......

Great post. High marks.  And yes, I have owned entry level Regas with mods and a Technics SL1200.  A friend owns a KAB modded SL1200.  It is all about what you like.  Vinyl can be like a deep dark rabbit hole. 

[Wayner]

TONEPUB,

My commet wasn't directed at you (or about you). To make myself even further clearerererer, I think there are plenty of big ego guys that will lay down big bucks for these exotic tables, and have them set up horribly. I betting this is the case all over. I'm sure you have your table(s) set up properly, I just don't think there are many that truely understand the geometry involved and really have things where they should.

Wayner 

[woodsyi]

Are you calling me out Wayner?   

Seriously, I fidget over the setup all the time.  I am not absolutely sure I have the optimum setup but I like the sound I get with my toys.  I wouldn't mind an expert go over my set up either.  Vinyl rocks. 

[Wayner]

Oh Woodsyi,

I think your one of them that's got it under control.  I think most here at AC have their tables dialed in. If you remember one of my posts awhile back, the table will let you know when it's happy 'cause the sound field will open up and start playing surround sound with the 2 speakers.

Of all of the adjustments to be made, the angular offset is the most difficult to get a handle on and just a few 10ths of a degree can drive mechanical distortion up, big time.

On a slightly different note, I discovered a source of verberant noise from the SL-1200. It's the damn dust cover. If you open up the cover while playing a record, tap on the plinth and you will hear the tap. Take the cover off and try the tap again. Way less noise. When you examine the dust cover, you will notice 2 compression springs. That's what keeps the cover up. Ever seen the old spring reverb units from the 60-70's? That's right, they used long springs. So maybe the springs in the hinges aint such a fine idea. I am going to try and damp them down somehow. Live and learn.

Woodsyi, the only reason I may have one up on some of you is that I'm an engineer and I have CAD software. That allows me to create tone arm trajectories and plot null points and print the damn thing out full scale. I actually have made alignent cards for all of the tables I own. They are all designed to the specifications of the 'table/tone arm.

What has always made me wonder is why we have so many tone arm/overhang/offset angles from almost every table/arm maker. They're all over the board and only a few copied Bearwalds design parimeters. I just don't get it 

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

Wayner...take that dang dustcover off during playback   Seriously.  It is doing nothing potentially positive for sonics.

Take it off when playing...put it back on to keep prying fingers and dust from your table.

You need only put it on and off twice a day...it's a worthwhile 'tweek' (as you've found)

John

[Wayner]

Ok, Ok, I'll take the cover off. But it's like sittin' in my underware 

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

We started with the SL1200 and worked our way up to a Rega P3-24,
a VPI Scoutmaster, an Oracle Delphi V, the SOTA Nova, Rega P9,
SME 10 and then the Raven Two.  In the middle of things I had a friend
bring over a 1200 with most of the KAB mods.

Again the 1200 is incredibly good for the price, but just like the P3,
only offers up the basics when it comes to true high end sound reproduction.

If I had to compare it, I would compare the SL1200 to the Vandersteen 2Ce
in the sense that it does give you a ton of sound for a very reasonable price.

However, the nuances that are available in the big bucks stuff is not there.

That doesn't mean the SL1200 isn't a great deal, it is. And there are a lot
of happy 1200 (and Vandersteen) customers out there.

We also found out that the 1200, when close attention was payed to setup
was capable of a lot more sound than we intially thought, again showing
what a bargain this deck truly is.  It's just that most people aren't going to
go buy 1000 dollars worth of test equipment to dial in a 300 dollar table.

But if you already have this stuff around, much more can be pulled out
of this humble deck, as you can with the rega p3.  These two are probably
the best bang for the buck tables on the market today....

Well, that's the results of two weeks of screwing around in my life...

Jeff - what did you do in setup for the SL-1200 that rather dramatically reversed your opinion of it?

Cartridge angles - fore, aft, horizontal and vertical?  Anti-skate, tracking force, amount of silicone in the bath of how far the paddle sits in it, different viscosity of silicone, different VTA....? 

As a solid, non-suspended deck with the motor spindle and actual extension of the motor itself....some amount of de-coupling from the physical environment is needed (moreso than the inherently better isolated and de-coupled belt driver units). 

Squishy/compliant feet better than stock help (on an inert surface)...as do a damping scheme for the platter (which is again directly attached to the motor and is coupled to it's energy output, unfortunately) and a better interface for the record than the rubber mat that Technics supplies.

If you haven't done this, you still haven't likely heard what the deck is capable of yet...without a large investment in improvements.

John

[TheChairGuy]

But it's like sittin' in my underware 

Which is also good for sonics, btw 

John