[2bigears]

  got all gear on Adona rack.nice stuff,and ok prices.there is a tt out there somewhere ????

[sabes]

thks guys,that was the catch,5 large for 10 points,that's just crazy.sounds like cdp talk.system is:DNA 500,VAC Ren Sig pre,feeding SP Tech Revs. [transport with PS Audio L4] and of course the tt Technics 1210 with Benz.just getting back to vinyl and even though there is ZERO CONVEINENCE,it's too cool. just don't want to buy a piece of regret only to upgrade soon.

2bigears: nice pre! i've got the same one, with phono stage, and that caused me to upgrade from a thorens td125mkII to a merrill/scillia ms2. and it was night and day. check out the reviews - it's a keeper!

[2bigears]

   ohhhh man,there's that night-and-day thing gain'.i gotta hide the cheque book NOW....

[TheChairGuy]

I see things a bit differently than both the two outstanding gents Wayne/WGH and TONEPUB/Jeff (sorry guys  )

There is no quantitative measure for anything in audio insofar as sound quality is concerned....we are all spending alot of money chasing that last 10% down.  If plaback is bound by the same set of variables.....electrical and mechanical interaction, the drawbacks of analog recording itself, an AC or DC driven turntable with a tonearm and a cartridge...the differences aren't and cannot be greater than 10%. 

I mean, it either works or it doesn't.  If it doesn't the difference is 100%...if two setups both work the greatest difference between them is likely only 10%.  Okay, maybe it's 12.5 or even 18% in some mathematical model someone can concoct....but it's not the hyperbole that some with lavish on about.

To us, as audiophools, that 10% is a chasm we need to discover.  The rest of the music playing public could basically care less.

So, yeah, there is a difference...but it's not as great as fellow audiophools would suggest it to be. Nonetheless, we all spend a lot of time obsessing over that last 10%....so go for it 2BE 

As for suspended tables....not needed today, mostly.  In a time before constrained layer damping, vibrational analysis, widespread use and availability of sorbothane and other energy absorbing polymers...(spring...whether coiled or leaf) suspended tables were needed. 

You now have a bevy of energy absorbing substances, shoes/feet and platforms available that will repel 99% of the ground transmitted issues away.  Now when you stick yourself with a suspended table, by necessity, your motor is grafted to the table...not an a deal place for it to be. 

With the better solid, non-suspended belt drivers today you have the ability to locate your motor physically separate and away from the record/cartridge/tonearm, etc.

I wouldn't spend $4K on a suspended deck today....there are better alternatives for that kind of cash for much easier to operate and better sounding non-suspended decks nowadays.  VPI, Basis, Origin Live are but a few available that will offer a lot for $4K.

My best advice to you is after living with a direct drive deck capable of keeping time nearly as well as Redbook...don't buy any deck unless is has very tightly regulated outboard speed controller.  Once you live with the perfect speed of quartz locked direct drive - even tho you might appreciate the lower noise floor, bigger/taller soundstage, more pinpoint imaging and greater 'detail' of a pricier belt drive setup...unless it has tightly regulated speed at it's core, you're likely to feel that you are taking a backwards step for all the money you've spent.

Belt drive decks with outboard speed controllers tend to be $500+++ more than those without (depending on their complexity).  Spend that and you'll likely be happy with the tradeup.

John

[2bigears]

  not again,,,,i know-i know,please hang with me boys as my cheque book is now half way open here is the short list after a little worldly exploration,, Origin Live table as in the Resolution mk2 with an Encounter arm.------ Or  the TW Acoustic Raven 1 with say a used SME 4 arm.   both cost kinda close,but the Raven is 3 month wait. all you vinyl heads that can help me decide will win the prize of me not asking anymore silly tt questions  thks  Pat

[ohenry]

Sleep on it...   It'll come to you eventually. 

[lazydays]

They are hard to find used since they haven't been around a long time, but I'd like to try an Origin Live arm/table.  They seem to get great press and the descriptions of the sonic characteristics have me intrigued.  I'll keep dreaming...

about the only thing older than the Sota brand is Linn. Go to their website, and check out the refurbished tables they have on sale there. They take trade ins and then completely rebuild them with all the latest upgrades. My next table will be a Sota vacume table.
gary

[2bigears]

   thks,just talked with Jeff,in NY-NY and those Ravens sound too cool.may have to try one out.i want this buy to last a while.    sittin' in the sticks, where the oil flows

[lazydays]

Make sure your deck is on a great shelf or ultra-thick maple or other platform underneath...with compliant pads or legs of some sort to soak up what energy does sneak thru...at leat part of the great sound they are getting are available to improve any deck, no matter the humble beginnings.

Yes, spending $5K will get you a better deck than what you have...it will have a more refined sound, it will have a lower noise floor, it will near-equal in speed regulation (and likely good enough) assuming it an outboard power supply...but your still limited by the software (the record and analog recording process itself).

It cannot be a night and day difference as all phono playback and recording is held back by the same set of constraints.  It's a flawed medium...it just happens to honor music more realistically than CD/Redbook when you tackle most of it's conquerable issues.

I'm not trying to talk you into keeping what you have or to spend biggie money on a boffo great uber-table.....it's your money and you can choose to do with it that you want....just know there ain't but a 10% difference between what you have and the best. 

But, that last 10% is what we hunger for as audiophools...we spend it while most others sit idly and laugh at us 

Oh well - those poor non-audiophool schlubs don't know diddly

John

I currently own three tables and gave away a Technics direct drive awhile back. Even the suspension on the direct drive was somewhat ridgid and the other three are non-suspended. What I've found thru the years is that one needs to isolate that table as best he can. So far the best I've found is a Ginko Cloud by a wide margin. Now with this in mind lets get back to the Sotas a minute. We all know they're a good quality table, but many of us don't realize that they have a very well designed suspension system. This makes the bass have a nice warm sound. It's pretty hard to get that out of a non-suspended table or even a direct drive.
    Dollar for dollar the best buy right now is the Marantz. I personally don't like the drive belts that VPI uses, and will never own another direct drive again. With that being said I do like most of the build quality of a VPI table. Now I've spent enough money thru the years on tables to buy a Sota Millenium with the vac option. For drive belts, I prefer string drives made from something that won't stretch (I currently am using a Kevlar / silk thread). But even now I have at least one or two more tricks up my sleeve.
gary

[BobRex]

I currently own three tables and gave away a Technics direct drive awhile back. Even the suspension on the direct drive was somewhat ridgid and the other three are non-suspended. What I've found thru the years is that one needs to isolate that table as best he can. So far the best I've found is a Ginko Cloud by a wide margin. Now with this in mind lets get back to the Sotas a minute. We all know they're a good quality table, but many of us don't realize that they have a very well designed suspension system. This makes the bass have a nice warm sound. It's pretty hard to get that out of a non-suspended table or even a direct drive.
    Dollar for dollar the best buy right now is the Marantz. I personally don't like the drive belts that VPI uses, and will never own another direct drive again. With that being said I do like most of the build quality of a VPI table. Now I've spent enough money thru the years on tables to buy a Sota Millenium with the vac option. For drive belts, I prefer string drives made from something that won't stretch (I currently am using a Kevlar / silk thread). But even now I have at least one or two more tricks up my sleeve.
gary

Out of curiosity, what have you compared the Ginko to?  To me the Silent Running platforms appear to be a more elegant solution, they at least offer levelling.  They can also be cheaper than the Ginkos.

So instead of string drives, have you considered mag tape ala Teres and Galibier?  Or, even the rim drive that VPI and Teres are now offering.  At this point my next table short list is the Sota Cosmos, Teres 265 w/ Verus drive, or the smaller TW table.  If i go with the Teres or TW I'll probably also get a Silent Running base for added isolation.  I've convinced my wife that it's time for a new table, so I should have something by the end of the year.

[lazydays]

I currently own three tables and gave away a Technics direct drive awhile back. Even the suspension on the direct drive was somewhat ridgid and the other three are non-suspended. What I've found thru the years is that one needs to isolate that table as best he can. So far the best I've found is a Ginko Cloud by a wide margin. Now with this in mind lets get back to the Sotas a minute. We all know they're a good quality table, but many of us don't realize that they have a very well designed suspension system. This makes the bass have a nice warm sound. It's pretty hard to get that out of a non-suspended table or even a direct drive.
    Dollar for dollar the best buy right now is the Marantz. I personally don't like the drive belts that VPI uses, and will never own another direct drive again. With that being said I do like most of the build quality of a VPI table. Now I've spent enough money thru the years on tables to buy a Sota Millenium with the vac option. For drive belts, I prefer string drives made from something that won't stretch (I currently am using a Kevlar / silk thread). But even now I have at least one or two more tricks up my sleeve.
gary

Out of curiosity, what have you compared the Ginko to?  To me the Silent Running platforms appear to be a more elegant solution, they at least offer levelling.  They can also be cheaper than the Ginkos.

So instead of string drives, have you considered mag tape ala Teres and Galibier?  Or, even the rim drive that VPI and Teres are now offering.  At this point my next table short list is the Sota Cosmos, Teres 265 w/ Verus drive, or the smaller TW table.  If i go with the Teres or TW I'll probably also get a Silent Running base for added isolation.  I've convinced my wife that it's time for a new table, so I should have something by the end of the year.

here's the list:
* a stock Atlantis rack (short one)
* standard steel pucks under the table
* brass pucks (slightly better)
* copper inert tungstin pucks (best I've found)
* solid copper pucks (not much difference between the above and this one
* ball bearing pucks with both steel and ceramic balls (not as good as the tungstin pucks)
* all the above pucks setting atop slabs of balsa wood (maybe a slight improvment yet)
* Big Rock ( was OK, but became a P.I.A. to level it all out and keep the motor aligned)
* hard maple (not as good as the Rock or the Cloud)
* Ginko Cloud
             * with standard steel pucks (better than all of the above
             * with tungstin pucks (not too much difference
             * beech wood plates under the pucks (noticably better, but not a huge improvment)
             * isolated the motor base
                         * brass plates (maybe a tiny bit better)
                         * aluminum plates (not as good)
                         * Sorbathane slab (really noticed a difference, and actually made the Denon D103 sound OK)
Also did some experiments with drive strings (they all are not the same). There were some noticable improvments here.
Next experiment will be to isolate the cartridge from the tone arm, and yet not change the tone arm mass too much if any.
gary

[2bigears]

   doing some research on line and it seems that the maker of the Raven AC/One kinda reminds me of a fellow over here this side of the pond,Jim Salk.makes a very good product for a real price.the One is 5 grand new,but if it's a keeper,i think it might be the ticket.cheque book out,now where's the pen ????

[toobluvr]

  doing some research on line and it seems that the maker of the Raven AC/One kinda reminds me of a fellow over here this side of the pond,Jim Salk.makes a very good product for a real price.the One is 5 grand new,but if it's a keeper,i think it might be the ticket.cheque book out,now where's the pen ????

Nothing in audio is a keeper...not in the long term anyway.
Us maniacs are too busy chasing the Holy Grail.

hence........BUY USED!!

 

[2bigears]

   we all know used is King....but you NEVER see Ravens on the gon ....what is a poor boy to do ??

[BobRex]

  doing some research on line and it seems that the maker of the Raven AC/One kinda reminds me of a fellow over here this side of the pond,Jim Salk.makes a very good product for a real price.the One is 5 grand new,but if it's a keeper,i think it might be the ticket.cheque book out,now where's the pen ????

Umm, I think the one is up to $6500 now, not quite the bargain it used to be.  But still.... I'm real curious how it stacks up to a Teres or Galibier.

[2bigears]

  those 3 tt's need a shoot-out,Raven 1,Teres 260 or 65,the little Galibier.....you never see any of these on the Gon....????   i think they are all close i price ?? 

[TONEPUB]

  those 3 tt's need a shoot-out,Raven 1,Teres 260 or 65,the little Galibier.....you never see any of these on the Gon....????   i think they are all close i price ?? 

They are all going to sound different, not necc. better or worse.  Im not a fan of the Teres stuff at all,
because it's always sounded way too warm and romantic for my tastes and my system.  The Galibier
stuff is nice, but you are paying a huge premium for buying something that is made in extremely
limited quantities and not by a guy that is a full time turntable mfr.

What I like about the Raven so much is that it offers up an incredible balance between detail,
resolution, weight and musicality, without going too far either way.  I also like the Raven TWO
(which is the model I own) because of the ability to use two tonearms.  This is essential for my
work, but even for an audiophile with an extensive record collection it's pretty cool because you
can run more than one cartridge.

Again, I had the Raven side by side next to the continuum for three months, with both tables
sporting an identical Dynavector XV-1s and there wasn't enough diff. between the two to want
to even pursue keeping the Continuum for TEN TIMES THE DOUGH.

You won't go wrong with either of the three you mention, it's just a matter of how the tonal
balance of each will line up with your system/tonearm/cartridge combination.

And I don't mean to be disrespectful to our host the Chair Guy, but the diff between a table
in this league and an SL-1200 is like going from a Toyota Corolla to a Formula One car.
It doesn't mean the SL-1200 is not worthwhile, it's probably the best turntable value out there
today. If carefully setup can do amazing things.  But if you have a system capable of the
resolution that one of these tables can offer and you also have a pretty good record
collection, you will not be disappointed.

Again, good luck on the search.

[TheChairGuy]

Teeny, tiny companies all three (and in the case of Teres and Galibier, quite young companies)...not seeing used ones on A'gon probably speaks more to their small annual volumes than much else.

I'd be surprised if any of them turned out many more than 100 (complete, without arm) decks yearly.

None of this pointing to bad sound quality, of course, but you really cannot make the observation that their quality is great merely because you don't see any for sale.

Contrast that to a Rega or VPI or certainly a Technics (at 80,000 pcs. yearly), coupled with lengthy years in business, means many more decks will come up for sale on Audiogon.

John

[doug s.]

i was gonna tell you to save your money & get this, but someone awreddy beat me to it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190230567296


a deck like this will be absolutely killer w/damping clay underneath, & the best arm you can afford...

doug s.

[TheChairGuy]

And I don't mean to be disrespectful to our host the Chair Guy, but the diff between a table
in this league and an SL-1200 is like going from a Toyota Corolla to a Formula One car.
It doesn't mean the SL-1200 is not worthwhile, it's probably the best turntable value out there
today. If carefully setup can do amazing things.  But if you have a system capable of the
resolution that one of these tables can offer and you also have a pretty good record
collection, you will not be disappointed.

No disrespect felt, Jeff...rock on 

Candor and free form discussion about vinyl with politeness appropriate between relative strangers is all my fellow co-Fac Larry Crim and I can reasonably ask for.

Besides, I'm not by any means a staunch fanboy of the Technics...my co-Fac would fit that bill closer 

I just bought my 'next' TT today....a fully refurbed DUAL 701 in a new (heavier lumber) base. I was talked out of the 1229 Idler by Bill at FixMyDual as he said his preference over all others is the 701.  DC, Direct Drive (not quartz), 9 lb platter and semi-auto function sound worthy of $450.00 to me. 

The guy is an expert at DUAL's of the 60-early 80's. The 701 is homely, but may work better than it's cover may suggest:



John