AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Low Wattage Systems => Topic started by: seadogs1 on 11 Feb 2017, 12:15 am
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Why does it seem that horn loudspeakers are NOT accepted by more audiophiles and reviewers?
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I don't know that is true. Some people still like them. There are pictures in my gallery from past Capital Audiofests.
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Here's Classic Audio Speakers from the 2015 Capital Audiofest
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126997)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126998)
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Here's another from the 2012 Capital Audiofest
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65079)
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This company as also exhibited at Captial Audiofests too
http://www.cathedralspeakers.com/
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Here's some coverage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsxHTlY9-M4
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Horn speakers are generally bigger and more expensive. The need a room that can support them and generally benefit from lower power tube amps. Putting horn systems into most domestic environments involves some compromises, typically in imaging and soundstaging.
One of my systems is horn/direct radiator Altec speakers in a 11' x 12' room. The speakers cannot get enough room to get audiophile-approved soundstaging. However, they sound like real music does in a room. Bear in mind, these speakers were design to work well in smaller spaces (Altec 414A in 614 cabinet, 802D in 32A horn).
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I've heard a full sized horn system is like owning an exotic pet, not everyone has the time, space and money.
Hybrids, usually with a direct radiator woofer or small folded cabinet, have had issues with implementation in the past with bass integration and just overall sound quality, but I think there are a lot of good choices today and hopefully they'll become more popular. Controlled dispersion patterns have some huge advantages vs direct radiators and are much more likely to sound good in an average living room without lots of acoustic devices.
IMO, hybrids with one horn covering a wide bandwidth have the potential to exceed the capabilities of direct radiators in many ways, especially ways that are more psycho-acoustically important, which results in an overall better listening experience. My biased opinion anyways... :lol:
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"Wide bandwidth" can be a subjective term though. One key, though is to avoid possible crossing over drivers in the critical midrange. The human voice (including fundamentals and harmonics but not sibilants) has a nominal range of about 80-3,000 hz. If we can get a single driver or horn to cover this range without a crossover our job becomes much easier.
As luck would have it, my Altec 414A is practically a full range driver, rolling off at 40hz and 4,000hz with no crossover required. The large driver also helps to control directivity in the upper ranges. The 32A horn is a great directivity match for this, and with an 802 driver can be brought in anywhere from 3khz to 8khz, almost as a supertweeter.
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Here's my tractrix designed Charney Audio rear loaded horns...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157680)
Amazing sound from a 6.5" driver with spot on imaging, sound stage, and clean articulate bass that fills the room.
http://charneyaudio.com/
Chris
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How do you like the Shiny Eyes preamp?
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And once upon a time Klipsch made horns that you were actually supposed to put into the corners of the room to properly load them.
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And once upon a time Klipsch made horns that you were actually supposed to put into the corners of the room to properly load them.
If by "once upon a time" you mean today, then yes, Klipsch made and continues to make the Klipschorn.
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I know of at least 2 people, including myself, who have horn speakers in their setups. The biggest issue with horn has traditionally been placement. They are demanding of ever increasingly smaller listening spaces. My buddy SETMAN has been running his home made horn speakers with a 6" Fostex driver since 2004? Since I met him over here. His drivers are well run. I have had a pair of 8" Fostex drivers in a smallish cabinet that I have purchased back in 2004 also but they are elsewhere but, among many speakers I have, I have purchased a pair of Finale Audio Vivace Mini speakers, since I have heard about them last year. Everything that is said about these speakers is true and fortunately, they do not take up much space at all.....For people who did not hear about them, they use 2.5" Faital Pro fullrange drivers and the entire cabinet is about 36" tall....tiny towers. They have ports in the back. To be honest with you, I have yet to break them enough.....need at least 200 hours but for what they provide....they are as quick and resolving as SOTA headphones.
Traditional horns are demanding....but the newer cadre of horns, are indeed different and perhaps better than their ancestors.
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I've been using large wooden horns in my main system for more than 7 years at this point in time. They sit quietly until called upon to perform and have never made any demands of any kind. I've found them to be endlessly patient, reliably co-operative and delightfully musical. They use little electricity, allow for the utilization of low powered amplifiers and possess the projection to blow out my windows. Their voice comes from a co-axial 2 inch compression driver made by an Italian company called B&C. My horns have a potential range of 300 Hz. to 17 Khz. using both elements in the co-ax. I believe the recommended XO point between the co-ax units to be somewhere in the 7 to 9 Khz range.
I cross from the horns down to a 5 cu. ft. front-ported cabinet housing a 15 inch pro woofer from RCF, another Italian driver manufacturer. XO point is around 450 HZ. There is a 3-way passive crossover leaning against the wall behind the woofer cabinets. If you would like further details about this setup, I'd be happy to try assisting you, either here in this thread or privately through email.
Horns are fun if you have a suitable room, budget and taste, and want lifelike dynamics and the purest midrange you've ever heard. The presentation is much like that of a very large electrostatic like the Sound Labs I owned many years ago.
Check into the topic --- HORNS ARE FUN!!!
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Theoretically horns could be the ultimate speaker, especially in providing life-like dynamics, but:
1.) To gain efficiency they cut off bass and over pressurize to the point of distortion;
2.) To reach deep bass response they get really big;
3.) To address the high pressures involved the cabinets must be very heavily reinforced;
4.) Bigger horns easily overwhelm normal sized rooms;
5.) Typically have colored/forward presentation;
6.) Typically the drivers (bass in particular) are not time aligned.
Some of the world's best speakers use concrete bass horns, each the size of a garage to reach deep. To me, good sounding mid/treble horns must be made of thick wood.
The Klipschorn is a rather extreme example of a classic horn loaded speaker. Highly efficient, but only rated down to 35 Hz (and Klipsch has a reputation of overrating their specifications). The cabinet is big and complex yet not rigid enough to avoid cabinet colorations (even adjoining walls aren't rigid enough). The midrange/tweeter horns are not reinforced as needed to avoid further colorations. They require two uninterrupted/adjacent corners (which after the introduction of stereo almost killed them off). The bass isn't close to being time aligned yet the mid/treble sound is very forward. All together they need a huge room to sound their best (as per the above show images). Like horn speakers in general they are living dinosaurs, being in production for over 60 years. Being so efficient they normally don't work well with solid state amps which suffer maximum distortion at very low power levels. When introduced in 1946 they were replacing Victrola's, so a huge leap forward, and only tiny tube amps were available.
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If by "once upon a time" you mean today, then yes, Klipsch made and continues to make the Klipschorn.
They do?!
I thought they stopped making them ages ago.
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I'm intrigued by the Danley synergy horn stuff. I have one of his older "unity horn" designs made by Yorkville and think it sounds excellent, though these aren't really "horns" in the traditional home hifi sense.
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Theoretically horns could be the ultimate speaker, especially in providing life-like dynamics, but:
1.) To gain efficiency they cut off bass and over pressurize to the point of distortion;
2.) To reach deep bass response they get really big;
3.) To address the high pressures involved the cabinets must be very heavily reinforced;
4.) Bigger horns easily overwhelm normal sized rooms;
5.) Typically have colored/forward presentation;
6.) Typically the drivers (bass in particular) are not time aligned.
Some of the world's best speakers use concrete bass horns, each the size of a garage to reach deep. To me, good sounding mid/treble horns must be made of thick wood.
The Klipschorn is a rather extreme example of a classic horn loaded speaker. Highly efficient, but only rated down to 35 Hz (and Klipsch has a reputation of overrating their specifications). The cabinet is big and complex yet not rigid enough to avoid cabinet colorations (even adjoining walls aren't rigid enough). The midrange/tweeter horns are not reinforced as needed to avoid further colorations. They require two uninterrupted/adjacent corners (which after the introduction of stereo almost killed them off). The bass isn't close to being time aligned yet the mid/treble sound is very forward. All together they need a huge room to sound their best (as per the above show images). Like horn speakers in general they are living dinosaurs, being in production for over 60 years. Being so efficient they normally don't work well with solid state amps which suffer maximum distortion at very low power levels. When introduced in 1946 they were replacing Victrola's, so a huge leap forward, and only tiny tube amps were available.
It should be noted that when the Klipschorns were designed and built they employed off-the-shelf components (EV, Atlas, etc). Compared to some of their contemporaries from WE, Jensen or RCA they were of lower quality. Directly comparing a number of these classic speakers will reveal this. A Western Electric 753c is one of the greatest speakers ever built, and the Jensen Imperial horns system will walk all over a Klipschorn. Even when upgraded Klipschorns are not my cup of tea. I recently had the chance to listen to a pair of upgraded Klipschorns (Volti Audio drivers and crossovers) driven by a high-dollar system (VPI table, Loesch preamp, Lampizator, Border Patrol 300B amps). I was less than impressed. However, there are those who replace the Klipsch "Rubber Throat" horn with a tractrix horn as well as replacing the driver. At that point the bass horn is the only thing that remains of the original design and it is hard to reasonably state that it is an actual Klipschorn.
Bass horns remain the toughest component in the home listening environment, though some small-volume manufacturers make back loaded horns that use the room corners to extend the horn mouth.
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I would love to hear Nelson Pass's horns.
http://www.audioxpress.com/article/Interview-with-Nelson-Pass
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157735)
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roscoe65,
I agree that the K-horn is not the best, or my favorite, example of horn speakers but are probably the best known. At Axpona 2015 I was only drawn into one room, the big Classic Audio room with the big horn speakers because it sounded so life-like. But I don't have a 25,000 cubic foot room that they need to really perform at their best. :(
OzarkTom,
Even in sealed/ported designs some estimate that over half of the sonic output is from the cabinet, not the drivers. Some designers even strive for it, but then everything sounds in part like the cabinet. Horns like these would resonate horribly and you'd be hearing mostly the plywood.
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The Classic Audio Speakers don't need an especially large room imo... it's true they are too big for a standard hotel room, but something about double that size or larger would do fine I think.
Also, over half the output from the cab is a bit ridiculous unless the builder is a novice and doesn't know what bracing is.
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I'd like to thank Seadogs for asking about horn loudspeakers. I have very little experience with this sort of speaker.
Generally speaking, do rooms with horn speakers need more or less treatment? Is ear fatigue an issue?
A couple months ago I attended a high-end audio fest in Taipei, Taiwan, and spent 15 minutes in a room demonstrating Taiwan-manufactured horn speakers. I really enjoyed the music that came out of the two different models in that room. One model had a 12" woofer; the other had a 15" woofer. Both shared the same 44mm titanium driver. I believe these two models were the Classical 12SE and the Neo-Classical 15.
I have often wondered if I'd enjoy the speakers as much after 1 or 2 hours as I did after just 15 minutes. The company showroom is located an hour or so from my home, so I'll visit before too long, I think. Here is the English language link: http://www.lals-audio.com.tw/eng/company/index.asp
At the show, the 12" model was priced at just $100,000 NTD (if memory serves me right), which is ~$3,000 USD.
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I reeeeaaalllly like these horns!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157794)
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I reeeeaaalllly like these horns!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157794)
Who wouldn't???!!!
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Who wouldn't???!!!
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
I'll have some new power cords and USB in my system come Monday! :D
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I'd like to thank Seadogs for asking about horn loudspeakers. I have very little experience with this sort of speaker.
Generally speaking, do rooms with horn speakers need more or less treatment? Is ear fatigue an issue?
A couple months ago I attended a high-end audio fest in Taipei, Taiwan, and spent 15 minutes in a room demonstrating Taiwan-manufactured horn speakers. I really enjoyed the music that came out of the two different models in that room. One model had a 12" woofer; the other had a 15" woofer. Both shared the same 44mm titanium driver. I believe these two models were the Classical 12SE and the Neo-Classical 15.
I have often wondered if I'd enjoy the speakers as much after 1 or 2 hours as I did after just 15 minutes. The company showroom is located an hour or so from my home, so I'll visit before too long, I think. Here is the English language link: http://www.lals-audio.com.tw/eng/company/index.asp
At the show, the 12" model was priced at just $100,000 NTD (if memory serves me right), which is ~$3,000 USD.
Good questions Michael!
Treatment requirements should be lessened as the horn itself is directional.
Fatigue is a definite factor in my book for horns being how dynamic and forward sounding they are (very "in your face", which is partially why I commented on needing a big room). To me, they force the issue - you either like them or you don't, no prisoners taken. There is no perfect speaker and horns are not well suited for casual/background listening.
Those speakers you found remind me of the JBL M2 ($20,000/pair, mastering speakers that put the really expensive competitors to shame).
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I really like my DIY horns, I dont have any fatigue issues so I think design is a factor. These are the Pi4 with JBL 2226 and DE250 compression. I find the sound very enveloping and addictive.
Boy would I like to hear those Tannoy's! How would you describe them compared to your prior LS9?
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/mrnick_2006/pi4003-4.jpg)
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I can't pretend to be an expert on horns but I have had a horn expert in my life and can share some of his wisdom if you like.
It is not only the materials used in the horn that effects its clarity. Conical horns provide the least distorted, least fatiguing and most coherent sound reproduction. Narrow dispersion (mine are 40 degrees, 20 on each side of center) does help with room acoustics. Also there is no concern with my horns about distance from the rear wall because ALL of the energy is projected forward. The reasons for concern about room size are legitimate but seem to be misunderstood to some degree.
Horn bass is not a topic in my life but I can agree that Klipsch is relatively primitive and definitely built cheaply compared to the other hi-end offerings we are discussing here. The gap is wide enough for us to consign their speakers to mid fi.
I will not be able to comment on horn bass because I use a hybrid system, meaning my horn covers frequencies above 450 and my 15 inch woofer in a ported cabinet represents conventional dynamic driver configuration. The two systems blend very well and the size is kept under control. The footprint of my woofer cabinet is 24 wide by 21 deep. The overall height including horn is 52 inches. Considering the need to bring most speakers (especially dipoles like Maggie or OB) out into the room, I would argue that my horns actually require less space. These arguments apply to my situation only. Other horns may well support the negatives posed here but my goal in speaking up is to clarify that not all horns display the same set of challenges and, therefore, should not be evaluated en masse.
Let me know if any of you will be in the area of Grand Junction, CO. and I will do my best to provide an audition.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=16357)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=17088)
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I can't pretend to be an expert on horns but I have had a horn expert in my life and can share some of his wisdom if you like.
It is not only the materials used in the horn that effects its clarity. Conical horns provide the least distorted, least fatiguing and most coherent sound reproduction. Narrow dispersion (mine are 40 degrees, 20 on each side of center) does help with room acoustics. Also there is no concern with my horns about distance from the rear wall because ALL of the energy is projected forward. The reasons for concern about room size are legitimate but seem to be misunderstood to some degree.
Horn bass is not a topic in my life but I can agree that Klipsch is relatively primitive and definitely built cheaply compared to the other hi-end offerings we are discussing here. The gap is wide enough for us to consign their speakers to mid fi.
I will not be able to comment on horn bass because I use a hybrid system, meaning my horn covers frequencies above 450 and my 15 inch woofer in a ported cabinet represents conventional dynamic driver configuration. The two systems blend very well and the size is kept under control. The footprint of my woofer cabinet is 24 wide by 21 deep. The overall height including horn is 52 inches. Considering the need to bring most speakers (especially dipoles like Maggie or OB) out into the room, I would argue that my horns actually require less space. These arguments apply to my situation only. Other horns may well support the negatives posed here but my goal in speaking up is to clarify that not all horns display the same set of challenges and, therefore, should not be evaluated en masse.
Let me know if any of you will be in the area of Grand Junction, CO. and I will do my best to provide an audition.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=16357)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=17088)
Wish I was close enough to stop by and hear those! Very nice!
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Thanks, Bob. There are about 150,000 people living within 50 miles of me and, as far as I know, none of them are AC members and probably not audiophiles either. On the plus side: if you travel from Colorado to Utah on I-70, you will pass within about a mile of these horns.
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Macrojack,
Can you provide any more details on these horns? I currently have a pair of Onken cabs that I run with Altec 511B horns and Altec drivers. I would like to get away from the cast aluminum horns, but I'd like to stick with a 2-way configuration and so something that could cross low enough is a must.
Love the look of yours and wonder if they might be a viable option.
- Woody
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157809)
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Macrojack,
Can you provide any more details on these horns? I currently have a pair of Onken cabs that I run with Altec 511B horns and Altec drivers. I would like to get away from the cast aluminum horns, but I'd like to stick with a 2-way configuration and so something that could cross low enough is a must.
Love the look of yours and wonder if they might be a viable option.
- Woody
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157809)
Woody,
Are you running Altec 416's or 414's on the bottom? If you're running a 416 a two-way becomes a challenge and needs a driver crossed over fairly low (1,200 hz or so). The 414 can run a lot higher and is easier to use in a two-way speaker. Also, FWIW, a lot of people find the 511/811 horn to be very shouty.
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These were actually built using a Dayton Audio woofer... the PA380-8... Here's the specs...
http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/pa380-8-15-pro-woofer.html
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa380-8-15-pro-woofer--295-034#lblProductDetails
- Woody
Woody,
Are you running Altec 416's or 414's on the bottom? If you're running a 416 a two-way becomes a challenge and needs a driver crossed over fairly low (1,200 hz or so). The 414 can run a lot higher and is easier to use in a two-way speaker. Also, FWIW, a lot of people find the 511/811 horn to be very shouty.
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I'm not familiar with that driver, but you owe it to yourself to try a pair of 416's in the Onken cabinet.
If you don't like the 511 horns - and most people don't - you choose a number plastic or fiberglass horns from Autotech. DIYSoundgroup has them in the US.
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Macrojack,
Can you provide any more details on these horns? I currently have a pair of Onken cabs that I run with Altec 511B horns and Altec drivers. I would like to get away from the cast aluminum horns, but I'd like to stick with a 2-way configuration and so something that could cross low enough is a must.
Love the look of yours and wonder if they might be a viable option.
- Woody
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157809)
Check this guy http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=9515
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Similar ones are available from on Ebay from Ukraine: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Multicell-Horns-1505B-for-1-4-drivers-Altec-288-and-others-similar-/322421294127?hash=item4b11ce842f:g:30IAAOSw5cNYeOJ-
They are a nice wooden replica of the 1505. Of course, if you would rather spend $800 than $2,000 you can get the 808 replicas: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Multicell-Horns-H808-for-1-drivers-Altec-others-/322408492964?hash=item4b110b2fa4:g:JOQAAOSw8w1X7z2H
The 808 is pretty well respected for use with the 802 driver. Another great option is my favorite 32A horn, a 90 degree bent metal horn that is also a favorite of Joe Esmilla (and Joe Roberts).
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Macrojack,
Can you provide any more details on these horns? I currently have a pair of Onken cabs that I run with Altec 511B horns and Altec drivers. I would like to get away from the cast aluminum horns, but I'd like to stick with a 2-way configuration and so something that could cross low enough is a must.
Love the look of yours and wonder if they might be a viable option.
- Woody
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157809)
Woody -
My horns were made by Bill Woods of Hastings, Ontario. He had a company called Acoustic Horn. The ones I have were offered as the AH300. Mine are cherry but he offered them in a variety of solid woods. The mouth is 18 inches and the throats are 2 inch. The aluminum part is cast and powder coated and custom machined to mate with your predesignated compression driver. I chose to use B&C DCX 50.
Now the bad news:
The last time I contacted Bill he informed me that he was under exclusive contract to Jonathan Weiss of Oswald's Mill. The contract forbids Bill to converse with anyone concerning speakers or anything apropos to speaker system design, theory, acquisition or implementation. This restriction extends to include former customers like me.
There are some number of these horns out there but I would hazard a guess that the number is extremely small. I'm thinking it may be less than a dozen. If you see them for sale anywhere, buy them.
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If you don't like the 511 horns - and most people don't - you choose a number plastic or fiberglass horns from Autotech. DIYSoundgroup has them in the US.
I like the Autotech horns. Which one would be the best choice? I'm open to changing the HF driver of course.
- Woody
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Woody,
Very nice speakers you got there. Yes, the horn as others have said is not one the best examples of the breed. It's not because it's a metal horn, but because of a pinch at the throat that creates diffraction which we're sensitive to, especially at higher SPL's. The Altec multi-cells that were recommended above as well as the 805B's, are really in another league as compared to the sectoral's (811/511). They are also quite a bit more rare and expensive.
I am at this point very close to ordering a Le Cleac'h type horn from Azura Horn, their model AH-425. This was a custom design for Lynn Olson that came out of the megathread "beyond the ariel" over at diyaudio. it was designed with the 1.4" large format compression drivers in mind such as the Altec 288 and Radian 745NeoPB.
I'm including bellow some pertinent posts on a couple of builds since it's nearly impossible to wade through the entire thing. One of the builds - perhaps the only one that's well documented, is by Gary Dahl who is an orchestra conductor. Read the linked posts as well as a few posts further down for some better perspective and understanding. I am heading down this same path, hopefully in the very near future.
http://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-731.html#post2298387
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-1295.html#post4399839
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-1436.html#post4984865
Woody -
My horns were made by Bill Woods of Hastings, Ontario. He had a company called Acoustic Horn. The ones I have were offered as the AH300. Mine are cherry but he offered them in a variety of solid woods. The mouth is 18 inches and the throats are 2 inch. The aluminum part is cast and powder coated and custom machined to mate with your predesignated compression driver. I chose to use B&C DCX 50.
Now the bad news:
The last time I contacted Bill he informed me that he was under exclusive contract to Jonathan Weiss of Oswald's Mill. The contract forbids Bill to converse with anyone concerning speakers or anything apropos to speaker system design, theory, acquisition or implementation. This restriction extends to include former customers like me.
There are some number of these horns out there but I would hazard a guess that the number is extremely small. I'm thinking it may be less than a dozen. If you see them for sale anywhere, buy them.
Thanks for the update, I had been wondering what happened to Acoustic Horn for a while now. That's really a bumer since Bill's were some of the best horns I have ever heard. Many years ago I listened to a pair of the smaller AH-700's at a show and that sound has stuck with me ever since. Very open, natural and un-horn like sound for lack of a better word. Can't imagine how great these big boys must sound! You've done really well Macrojack! :green:
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Even though Bill's horns are no longer available for less than the price of a Tesla, the compression drivers he recommended are available still. The B&C DCM 50 and DCX 50, according to Bill, employ a five inch cone diaphragm unlike other alternatives. He said that it successfully mimics the performance of the legendary RCA 1428 fold coils.
I'm hesitant to offer this info because I do not know what I'm talking about and am simply conveying info I received from my horn guru. So do your own research on that before investing. I'm pretty certain I got it right but cannot say with complete confidence.
No one said anything but my horn and woofer are clearly not time-aligned very closely but Bill said only about 10 - 12 inches difference probably wouldn't be noticed at the XO frequency I use. So far I have never noticed but I have never experimented either.
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Fiberglass horns are ok, but need a good bit of damping added to reduce their contribution. I used many cans of plasti-dip and a bunch of mortite, it helps but wood horns are a better option imo. It's not a huge deal though, any horn is going to store energy and have a sound, but it's a type of sound that our brain filters out, kinda like how your brain filters out constant smells after a while.
Also, IME time alignment at ~400 Hz isn't critical.
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Fiberglass horns are ok, but need a good bit of damping added to reduce their contribution. I used many cans of plasti-dip and a bunch of mortite, it helps but wood horns are a better option imo. It's not a huge deal though, any horn is going to store energy and have a sound, but it's a type of sound that our brain filters out, kinda like how your brain filters out constant smells after a while.
Also, IME time alignment at ~400 Hz isn't critical.
Thanks, Dave. I don't know the wavelength at that freq. but I guessed it was probably longer than my listening distance. Is that the correct way to look at it?
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Thanks, Dave. I don't know the wavelength at that freq. but I guessed it was probably longer than my listening distance. Is that the correct way to look at it?
I haven't thought about that, but from what I've experimented with the alignment around 400 Hz isn't much of an issue. I did the math, took measurements that perfectly agreed with the math and experimented with the bass being aligned vs offset +/- a pretty decent range and it's just not perceivable. At higher frequencies I definitely measured some cancellation effects, then after a certain range at even higher frequencies it ceased to matter anymore again. I have a mid horn that covers from 400-15000 Hz, which basically eliminated the entire issue and makes the speaker sound a lot like a single driver as far as coherence.
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At sea level the length of sound waves are 13,200 inches = 1,100 feet = 343 meters divided by the frequency.
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Using that formula, I calculated a wavelength of 2.5 ft. for a 450 hz. wavelength. My listening distance is about 12 ft. The voice coils of my compression drivers sit about 10-12 inches behind my woofer voice coils. Can anyone tell me, using this data, if the XO point is theoretically audible?
I've never heard anything to indicate a seam but I wonder what science says on the subject.
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Holy cow, has this thread ever gone OT.
Was the OP trolling here? They posted in Low Wattage Systems. What makes more sense (Audiophile or not) than horn speakers if your amplifier has 1-2 watts of power?
Why does it seem that horn loudspeakers are NOT accepted by more audiophiles and reviewers?
I would suggest there are plenty of Audiophiles and Reviewers who enjoy horn loudspeakers and review them positively. Why do YOU think they don't?
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Using that formula, I calculated a wavelength of 2.5 ft. for a 450 hz. wavelength. My listening distance is about 12 ft. The voice coils of my compression drivers sit about 10-12 inches behind my woofer voice coils. Can anyone tell me, using this data, if the XO point is theoretically audible?
I've never heard anything to indicate a seam but I wonder what science says on the subject.
That translates to a roughly 1ms difference and is potentially audible, assuming the two drivers are pumping out at exactly the same time. If your woofer has a delay, it's probably lining up reasonably close.
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Reply to Rusty Jefferson:
First of all I resent the remark that I was trolling. Next, most reviews that I read the reviewers have stated they do not like the high end or the low end and sometimes not even the middle of the audio spectrum in most horn loudspeakers. To be sure there are some horns that sound great but most are quite expensive. The DIY horns can be built to the owners likes and dislikes to be sure but what I was trying for was maybe find horns that were already built that sound great thru out the audio range. As far as audiophiles go I think some of you will agree that there are more box speakers to choose from than horn speakers. Again I was wondering why? I also posted a like post on OB loudspeakers for the same reasons. Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Sorry Seadogs, I didn't mean to accuse you of trolling, I was looking for clarification. You posted that question in Low Wattage systems and 3 pages later still hadn't commented or tried to keep the thread on topic. No disrespect intended.
Reply to Rusty Jefferson:
....... To be sure there are some horns that sound great but most are quite expensive. The DIY horns can be built to the owners likes and dislikes to be sure but what I was trying for was maybe find horns that were already built that sound great thru out the audio range. .......
That's a great point and worthy of it's own thread.
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I like the Autotech horns. Which one would be the best choice? I'm open to changing the HF driver of course.
- Woody
I built these using an Autotech waveguide (SEOS 18). The woofer is the Acoustic Elegance TD15M. The box is sealed. The unfinished box is a 6" folded horn which will go down to ~25hz. The waveguide enclosure can be moved in or out to help with phase issues or be removed if I want to try a different waveguide/horn.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157895)
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Horns are excellent when done right. But that is the issue with such high efficiency drivers they expose everything! Noise, bad recording balance, terrible room acoustics etc...
I even had a pair which were simply off "Tonally" from one side to the other causing vocals to sound a little more full on one side, it was not a huge night and day thing, but once you find it this can become an obsession hunting down the weak link.
Turns out it was a factor of getting really really good matched Capacitors on the midrange, as most of the times tolerances in caps from the factory from any good Audio companies should be pretty right, and tight. Generally with speakers in the average 89 db and below range good luck hearing much variation unless its really bad. But put them on 100 db horns and it's a whole new world of balancing, and getting super close tolerance left / right components, acoustics, and tonal balance all the way down the chain.
Horns can be a real adventure is my only warning!
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Glad to see some interest in this thread. I think horns have lots of potential, but in addition to the observations by undertow above, the other issue with them is getting a flat (linear) response curve from them. It's almost impossible.
I have to say that some of the most life like systems I've heard had horn speakers. However, it is very challenging in most real world environments to get them to sound their best.
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Glad to see some interest in this thread. I think horns have lots of potential, but in addition to the observations by undertow above, the other issue with them is getting a flat (linear) response curve from them. It's almost impossible.
I have to say that some of the most life like systems I've heard had horn speakers. However, it is very challenging in most real world environments to get them to sound their best.
Actually, waveguide horns make it easier to achieve a flat in room response because of their controlled directivity. Read Geddes et al.
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I'm really enjoying this post and love the pics of wood horns, but no Acapella owners on Audiocircle? I really do believe that horn speakers make music with horns sound better.
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Fiberglass horns are ok, but need a good bit of damping added to reduce their contribution. I used many cans of plasti-dip and a bunch of mortite, it helps but wood horns are a better option imo. It's not a huge deal though, any horn is going to store energy and have a sound, but it's a type of sound that our brain filters out, kinda like how your brain filters out constant smells after a while.
Also, IME time alignment at ~400 Hz isn't critical.
Dave,
Have you tried lead tape?
(http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/images/IMG_1600lg.gif)
http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/SSP-Lead-Foil-Tape-1-X-50-Roll/productinfo/09-42750-LF1-50/
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Somewhere at the beginning of this string someone mentioned the Volti horn speakers. I own the Alura's. I went to Axpona last year and heard the Vittora's first and they were incredible. But they were too big for my listening room. So went to listen to the Alura's in a different room. That was the ticket! Bought them at the show. These are my forever speakers! I heard everything at Axpona and have also have heard lots of systems around the country as I travel a lot. And have owned some decent speakers before this and never thought I liked horns. But I've never heard anything like the Volti horns. For me horns are now the thing!
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I preferred the Alurra, greatly, nice choice. 99db effeicny must be fun for playing with low power amps.
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The Aluras are driven by the Van Alstine Ultravalve Tube Amp. I'm also using the Van Alstine Fet Valve CF. This combo makes these horns really sing. Its unbelievable how an amp as inexpensive as the Ultravalve can sound so darn good.
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Dave,
Have you tried lead tape?
(http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/images/IMG_1600lg.gif)
http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/SSP-Lead-Foil-Tape-1-X-50-Roll/productinfo/09-42750-LF1-50/
No, that would certainly add mass though!
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Consider me in the horn camp for now. Any 20 yo Klipsch model can be cheaply upgraded and modified to get excellent sound. They are the perfect mate with low powered amplification. IMO, most people have never really listened to horns because smaller speakers with smaller footprints became the center of attention by manufacturers for various reasons. The dynamic, emotive sound that is like real music is captivating and for many listeners more important than having the best ' imaging' or other audiophile grails.
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The dynamic, live sound is captivating and for many of us more important than having the best ' imaging'...
I wouldn't say one is more important than the other. I will say that if one is fortunate to have them both, there is no turning back. However, I will agree with the underlying assertion that most audiophile speakers, especially those that use convention drivers (including stats and plannars) compress the dynamics to the point of sucking the life out of the music.
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Woody -
My horns were made by Bill Woods of Hastings, Ontario. He had a company called Acoustic Horn. The ones I have were offered as the AH300. Mine are cherry but he offered them in a variety of solid woods. The mouth is 18 inches and the throats are 2 inch. The aluminum part is cast and powder coated and custom machined to mate with your predesignated compression driver. I chose to use B&C DCX 50.
Macrojack
I had the B&C and replaced them with these:
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/171108-bms-4592-mid-1050/
Found the B&C on the "warm" side compared to BMS
Consider them if you have the scratch
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I wouldn't say one is more important than the other. I will say that if one is fortunate to have them both, there is no turning back. However, I will agree with the underlying assertion that most audiophile speakers, especially those that use convention drivers (including stats and plannars) compress the dynamics to the point of sucking the life out of the music.
Agree with that sentiment. I have pretty good imaging from my Quartets with a little toe in and the right distance from the wall, but not as good as my planars. Otherwise, they are much more engaging.
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Alignment for horns are much more critical than other types of speakers, I use laser to align mine and have help couple of my friends to align their as well, after alignment the speakers just disappear and instruments float in space the improvement are readily audible and at some instances drastic.
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Good questions Michael!
Treatment requirements should be lessened as the horn itself is directional.
Fatigue is a definite factor in my book for horns being how dynamic and forward sounding they are (very "in your face", which is partially why I commented on needing a big room). To me, they force the issue - you either like them or you don't, no prisoners taken. There is no perfect speaker and horns are not well suited for casual/background listening.
Those speakers you found remind me of the JBL M2 ($20,000/pair, mastering speakers that put the really expensive competitors to shame).
just found this thread, funny how people assume a horn will sound " in your face " that is absolute rubbish. The horn systems I've heard and owned were built over time and much work gone into them, they sounded relaxed and laid back, but also very dynamic. Assumptions like a speaker made of glass would be sharp and brittle sounding. I won't bother going on.
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That translates to a roughly 1ms difference and is potentially audible, assuming the two drivers are pumping out at exactly the same time. If your woofer has a delay, it's probably lining up reasonably close.
well if you can hear 1/1000th of second delay that will ruin your listening pleasure, you have my sympathies and you may want to pursue a different interest.
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I’ve been in the horn camp for a couple of years now. Reasonable admission price as I bought a couple of pair of Altec’s and restored them (model 14’s and 19’s).
I use ultra modern Lyngdorf amplification and now have the most musical system I have owned in 35 years.
The beauty of modern electronics is they allow placement against the rear wall, smoothing of in room response and digital crossover to a sub. That the noise floor is absolutely silent is a huge plus. Music explodes to life from a completely “black” background. Realistic indeed. :thumb:
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I’ve been in the horn camp for a couple of years now. Reasonable admission price as I bought a couple of pair of Altec’s and restored them (model 14’s and 19’s).
I use ultra modern Lyngdorf amplification and now have the most musical system I have owned in 35 years.
The beauty of modern electronics is they allow placement against the rear wall, smoothing of in room response and digital crossover to a sub. That the noise floor is absolutely silent is a huge plus. Music explodes to life from a completely “black” background. Realistic indeed. :thumb:
Those Lyngdorf amps are really nice. With that built in correction the options are definitely multiplied.
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Often when I tell someone I have horn speakers they already dismiss them based on old reviewers yet they have never heard them?
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Often when I tell someone I have horn speakers they already dismiss them based on old reviewers yet they have never heard them?
I hear you, audio202. Willful ignorance is a big problem these days. My horns receive the same presumptive negativity that I so often get about my Prius. Keeps the price of used horns reasonable though. Once the masses discover what they are missing, old horn designs will quadruple in price. If that happens I will be quick to sell mine.
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I used to have Altec 19's which sounded great in my last house but since I downsized to a smaller listening room, they just weren't sounding right so I had to sell them. Listening environment is crucial when considering horns.
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I used to have Altec 19's which sounded great in my last house but since I downsized to a smaller listening room, they just weren't sounding right so I had to sell them. Listening environment is crucial when considering horns.
A great alternative for those of us with less space is the use a 414A/802/32A in 614-sized cabinet. It ends up being a smaller scale version of the 19 with better midrange (gotta love that 414A).
There is a fantastic thread in the in the High Efficiency Speaker Asylum. It is well worth the read.
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When I can afford, I will get Duevel speakers, model Bella Luna Diamante. These are omni "horn loaded," though not sure if that qualifies as horn speakers. They are rated I think as 91 dB efficient, but because they are omni it will actually be a little higher than that.
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I'm trying
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176746)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176748)
another pic
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Sweet. :thumb: Brings to mind the OMA Imperia.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176749)
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Those look to be way over my fabrication abilities. Something to shoot for though.
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MKane, what are your woods in that project? One looks to be walnut. That puts the D in DIY !
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I'm still loving my Quartets. I did a recent mod that paid off, I mass loaded the passive radiators to get deeper bass response. I'm guessing the results at 4-6 hz. A nice improvement in bass, I don't think it changed the sound in any other noticeable way. These image very nicely and I don't hear any horn coloration from the tractrix mid horn. I haven't had an urge to dampen the horn at all.
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Walnut, Cherry, Birch. Whatever I can get my hands on. I'll get a handle on dimensions next time around.
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Here's the original concept from Bill Woods. Mine are solid cherry comprised of 12 "petals" per horn. I've not heard anything better but that rather brash sounding statement should be qualified by the fact that I'm not much in the game anymore nor do I get out much to hear alternatives. I take some encouragement, however, from the Cogent guys and OMA, both of whom have turned a lot of heads with Bill's horns.
Mine could be for sale if someone is interested and the price is right.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=16357)
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My experiment with all out effort putting together an active Quad-amp Horn system.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=210021)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=210022)
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My experiment with all out effort putting together an active Quad-amp Horn system.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=210021)
Wow, congrats! :thumb:
How are you handling the crossover duties, e.g. passive, analogue/digital active, DSP correction, etc?
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Crossover is pure analog. It is second-order linkwitz riley crossover, built into each tube amp (6 mono block ). The 2 15 woofer is crossed third order using Behringer digital crossover and 200W solid state amp.
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They are intense looking. Bet they sound marvelous. Nice work.
charles
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I've always wanted to hear these.
(http://www.stereosound.co.jp/specialreview/article/thumbnail/2012/12/640x427xspreview_121203_kenrick-01-thumb-640x427-17763.jpg.pagespeed.ic.4npZ2ZZLAN.jpg)
(http://lajazz.jp/images/Audio_Speaker/Ryo/JBL/Paragon/JBL-C44_08.jpg)
(https://a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/upload/9025/14_13/8_8/8_8_l.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/d4/73/9ad473e6684685d45bd5b7e0c054acbc.jpg)
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I've always wanted to hear these.
https://sacramento.craigslist.org/ele/d/weimar-jbl-paragon-d44000-speakers/7133316169.html
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https://sacramento.craigslist.org/ele/d/weimar-jbl-paragon-d44000-speakers/7133316169.html
That's going to be a long commute from NC.
That's not a bad price though.
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I am surprised there is no "Horn" circle?
Or have i missed it somehow?
Spent some time on these two sites...
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/giant-custom-horn-systems-how-they-sound-and-issues-with-sonics.25071/
www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/threads/hornografi.51190/.
Amazing variety of systems.
Great rabbit holes to spend time in.
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I am surprised there is no "Horn" circle?
Or have i missed it somehow?
Spent some time on these two sites...
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/giant-custom-horn-systems-how-they-sound-and-issues-with-sonics.25071/
www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/threads/hornografi.51190/.
Amazing variety of systems.
Great rabbit holes to spend time in.
There is no Circle for horns but you can ask Admin a Horn Circle with a volunteer facilitator on hand.
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Nothing better than a good horn loaded speaker. Unfortunately most are huge, require a very big room to perform their best, and lack horn loading of the bass. The JBL 708P (active) had horn loaded (acting as a wave guide) compression tweeter and ported 8 inch woofer. They were 92 dB/w/m - not the most efficient but IMO the best compromise between efficiency and lack of colorations, each driver were powered by 250 watts. They throughly filled my 8ft x 13ft x 21ft room without overloading it. Used them mid-field and they produced exceptional imaging. Overall the best speakers for home use I've ever heard.
Reported the best bass horns are made of concrete (to provide needed stiffness) and the size of a garage (to generate deep bass). Few have heard them.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211013)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211014)
I finally finished my horn loaded bass subwoofers by dropping a pair of JBL 18 inch drivers into them. I think they are only augmenting the bass from 30hz to around 70hz and they are adjusted so I don't hear a woof, BUT, what they are doing for my soundstage is phenomenal! It's the GIANT refrigerator on the far left.
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I reeeeaaalllly like these horns!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157794)
Are these not Tannoy Dual Concentrics rather than Horns ?
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The Tannoys use a dual concentric driver in a waveguide. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a horn is also technically a waveguide. The terms get commonly interchanged. To get more specific, the main difference is that a horn has a compression chamber, whereas a waveguide does not. In other words they are not really one and the same, but their goal is the same = controlled dispersion of sound waves.
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the main difference is that a horn has a compression chamber, whereas a waveguide does not.
Not true. You can have a tapped horn without a compression chamber. Frugel-Horns & BIBs are a good example.
dave
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A waveguide has constant directivity and a horn does not. A waveguide is, imo a subset of horns.
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Thanks for the corrections. :D A lot of misunderstanding between what constitutes a horn vs waveguide. :oops: