Please tell us whats up with the LeAmps Mike?

ABEX · « **on:** 29 May 2003, 06:50 pm »

Picks and Specs would be nice!

mbarnes · « **Reply #1 on:** 30 May 2003, 04:09 pm »

Today, I talked to the company making the cases. He has delivered the case to the company doing the amplifier. We got a bit of a shock. The case is nearly three times expensive than what we thought it would be. I was stunned at the high cost because it is far more than the cost of the case of anything I have done. It is more expensive than the Panda case and more expensive than the Silent Server case.

When I heard the price of the case, I asked how it could be so expensive. The guy told me he wanted it to be beautiful. He explained that the custom extruded heatsinks are expensive and that the screen we wanted was also expensive.

Anyway, we are still honoring our special price. I haven't seen the case yet but I will see it tomorrow and should have photos as well.

ABEX · « **Reply #2 on:** 30 May 2003, 04:23 pm »

Well I was hopeing it was not a technical glitch!

I would have thought a price would have been negotiated before the production of the heatsink and boxes were made. I guess you wanted a final prototype before settling on the production and price! It seems that you got caught in a snag and that bites .

Once read that it's the Heatsink and Cabinets for speakers that are the most expensive components when making a product. I guess I read right,huh?

I imagine you have had dealings with this vendor before ,so you thought you knew what to expect? As it is it did not turnout that way.

Thanks for not jacking the $$ up!

Regards ,ABEX!

Andrew JC · « **Reply #3 on:** 30 May 2003, 04:26 pm »

Mb, Sorry to hear about the cost over run. Is there any way to ditch the screen and go with something more traditional? Can't wait to see some pics. Thanks.....andy

hk29 · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 May 2003, 04:44 pm »

I really want to place an order, but I want someone to review it first! Argh.

Maybe I'll place an order ...

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 May 2003, 01:15 am »

I'm glad I already reserved mine...

Bummer about getting screwed on the case. At least the end result should be an amp that looks as good as it (hopefully) sounds.

I've got three on order, and I'll certainly chime in with my initial impressions as soon as I get my greasy mitts on 'em!

ABEX · « **Reply #6 on:** 31 May 2003, 02:25 am »

HK
From what I have gatherd this could be the best deal in amps since I bought my old B&K ST-202 and had them Modified.

Whenever you hear of an amp that can double it's output power with each halving of Impedance and is comprised of quality parts then you should take notice.

The ART Audio amp that goes for $230 and is being modded for $500 does not have the power and capability of these amps and I think it is just short of a ripofff unless they are really dynamic or I am really missing something.

At worst I can use them for Bass drivers if they infact do not work out in the midrange,but I doubt that because of what MB has stated to me about Biasing the amp to run higher in ClassA. That right there tells me that if it produces the right sonic signature then the veiling associated with most midfi amps will not be present. I wish others would take this example and implement it. My B&K does and the dofference between it and the stock version are like night and day!

Another thing of note is that it incorperates an Opamp. No Global Feedback is a real plus.

Lastly are the power and the design or designer.The power is ample enogh to drive just about any real world speakers. I have NEARs and it shall be a good test to see what they can do as the NEARs are a somewhat difficult load.If I had Apogees then it would really put a strain on the amps to perform,but I do not because of several reasons and I really do not wish to anyways. The NEARs are my dream speakers and I really love the damn things over just about any speakers I could have,but thats for another thread,Review forthcoming!
The designer it is said to be a fan of Nelson Pass and if this be the case he should know a thing or 2 about topology and components. He should also know what a world class amp should sound like and what needs to be done to implement one to work right.

There are still concerns,but they are secondary becasue of the asking price. FOr $400 I am not expecting the equivlent of a $4K amp,but if it can come close then that is all that can be expected if that. The switching amp or classification is minor. As stated I will see what she can do and if it betters my B&K in the midrange then I shall buy another set .If not it should have a better capability in the Bass then my B&K.

You should not ask to much for $400 and you have to ask yourself what you think it should be capable of. FOr $400 it is a no brainer to me.

Good luck!

eric the red · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 06:47 pm »

Abex says: "At worst I can use them for Bass drivers if they infact do not work out in the midrange,but I doubt that because of what MB has stated to me about Biasing the amp to run higher in ClassA. That right there tells me that if it produces the right sonic signature then the veiling associated with most midfi amps will not be present. I wish others would take this example and implement it. The ART Audio amp that goes for $230 and is being modded for $500 does not have the power and capability of these amps and I think it is just short of a ripofff unless they are really dynamic or I am really missing something. " Hmmmm... So you can comment on two different amps that YOU'VE NEVER HEARD and proclaim one a ripoff based on WHAT, imaginary listening tests in your head? And you already know the "sonic signature" Barne's new amps will produce WITHOUT ACTUALLY HEARING THEM? That's interesting. What are you basing your opinions on anyway if I might ask? Michael Barne's excellent salesmanship? Anyone who comments on ANYTHING audio without actually hearing what they are talking about with their own ears has zero credibility as far as I'm concerned. Yes you're missing something: a brain.

ABEX · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 09:10 pm »

Specs do stand for something! Maybe you have not read about designs? No need to be offensive!
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Remember reading that a one benchmark about how good an amp is can be measured at how much power can be delivered when Halfing the Impedance rating. As an example lets say an amp is stated to deliver 200watts at 8ohms and then delivers 400watts at 4ohms then deliver 800wats into 2ohms.Does the ability to double it's rated output that way tell you anything about the amps ability besides being able to drive a wider range of speakers? TIA,ABEX

Actually, it tells you several things.

1. It tells you the designer was using his head while working, and recognizes the fact that nasty things like impedance drops, phase shifts, etc actually do exist, operate in real life like it or not, and attempt to modify the amp's performance into real world speakers, as opposed to lab test loads (usually a bank of high power resistors);

2. It tells you the power supply of that amp has been really well done, no skimping. No output stage can deliver real world power into real world speakers if it doesn't have an energy pool to draw that power from;

3. It tells you the output section in particular, but also the whole amp, has been conceived with proper capability to negotiate even very difficult loads, which gives you freedom to choose among speakers according to taste, and not to have to think about drive capabilities, and

4. It tells you the amp's performance, such as distortion and frequency response, will be modified very little by even evil loads, which is a hallmark of any good design.

As a sideline, it also tells you whoever designed it, was one competent designer and worthy of respect.

On the other hand, however important that is, it's not the only factor deciding on the overall quality of the sound. Let me put it this way - such an amp stands a better chance of sounding good than another without such capabilities.

This means less than perfect loads will not curtail the amp’s dynamics, and that it will in fact drive almost anything somebody decided to call a speaker.

Cheers,
DVV
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I'd do more than that - I'd say power supplies are THE place to start. It's quite simple - the whole product rests on power supplies, without good power supplies, the rest is usually meaningless, and in any and all cases devalued.

The most common and sensible tweak of any product is modding the power supplies. No matter how poor it may sound, after that mod it will sound better, every time, never fails.

Of course, those are absolutes, and there is a relativity factor here as well. If you have to double the product's price to get a 15% improvement in sound, well, that's hardly rational, is it?

there are TWO things I'd say to you:

1. By all means, do start from the power supplies, and
2. Remember, it's all a balance, to have significant gains you need to mod at least a few things, never just one.

BTW, you found some good brains to pick; Audi has one of the best electrical arrangements in the entire car industry, in my view, better than Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Your paw-in-law sure knew what to pick, kudos to him.
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ABEX · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 09:27 pm »

I guess buying stuff from all these mail order Cos. is stupid also! Axiom ,ASKA,Bolder and others should consider all their clients fools without brains also!

eric the red · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 09:29 pm »

What's offensive to me is you saying that someone else's design or modded design is a ripoff without actually hearing it, you believing that you can imagine what Barne's new amp will sound like without actually hearing it based only on what the manufacturer of the amp has told you about its sound or specs, and that specs somehow have anything to do with the sound of an amp that you never actually have listened to. Please feel free to give us all some more opinions on any gear you have not heard based on what someone has told you or based on specs the manufacturer has fed you. For more on this subject, feel free to check this link out: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=amp&n=18509&highlight=eric+the+red&session=. Audio boards: Home of some of the most convoluted logic on the planet.

ABEX · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 09:34 pm »

The ART Audio amp that goes for $230 and is being modded for $500 does not have the power and capability of these amps and I think it is just short of a ripofff unless they are really dynamic or I am really missing something.

Not being able to produce adequeate power when halving it's Impedence makes me wary of getting the amps .If you have loads that dip below 6ohms I would not have much faith in it's ability to drive real world speakers based on the specs given.To the uneducated public that have such loads and own speakers such as Magnepans it would give me reason to pause getting those amps.They should be forwarned on that point.

Good luck on your purchase!

ABEX · « **Reply #12 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 09:51 pm »

Yeah using Speakers that can be driven with SET amps is what I am talking about.Klipsch are really efficient speakers. Try a pair of Apogees and then tell me what they are saying after that.

eric the red · « **Reply #13 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 09:54 pm »

No, good luck with YOUR purchase. After all, if the manufacturer says it's true, it MUST be true. From the norh website: "The ACA 2b is one of the lowest cost preamplifiers on the market, yet it looks and performs like a very expensive preamplifier." Now read what Truant (an actual OWNER of the ACA 2b) has to say about the construction quality, the problem right out of the box with one channels, and the sonics of the ACA 2b: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=2792. Good luck.

ABEX · « **Reply #14 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 10:38 pm »

I really do not see much of a negative in the assessment of the Pre. It might need more burnin or it might be his particular taste to change tubes.

What did you read into it that was so much of a glaring negative?

In my case if the amps are not my cup of tea in the Mids\Highs I shall beable to use them for my Bass Drivers which is more important to me at the moment.

If they are forward Bias'dthere should no veiling problems which are associated with MidFi gear.

Did you have a dealing in the past which was unsatisfactory with MB?

eric the red · « **Reply #15 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 11:01 pm »

No there won't be a 'veiling problem' with your new amps because you already believe there won't and Barnes has told you what you want to hear. And my dealings with norh have nothing to do with this post, although the hype doesn't always match the actual product from what I've read on audio boards where people actually OWN the norh gear they post about. The whole point here is this: You're commenting about the 'sonic signature' of an amp you've NEVER HEARD and slamming a modded amp that AGAIN you've NEVER HEARD. And your mumbo-jumbo about specs and Apogees doesn't mean squat to me. I've powered some very hard to drive Platinum Audio Solos with my 30 wpc Audiomat tube integrated with great results, so what does that tell me about specs? Nothing. If you've never heard a piece of audio gear, don't waste anyone's time by commenting on it, and if you're going to slam someone's modded amp that you've never heard, you shouldn't be posting on audio boards. Get it?

ABEX · « **Reply #16 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 11:21 pm »

I really don't get it! Further I really do not like your tone or assertions of what I write or mean in my statements .You really have a problem and it's not with me because I have not attacked you or anyone else!

“No there won't be a 'veiling problem' with your new amps because you already believe there won't and Barnes has told you what you want to hear.”

There are products I really do not like and I do post my remarks against their use like Canare Cable which I own and outfitted my system with. The vendor and users that have read my post are aware of it. Harmon Kardon and Adcom are other notables I really was not satisfied with and I did own HK and lived with Adcom which someone allowed me to borrow. Was not to my liking. I try to be unbiased ,but you will try to attack that assertion no doubt!

If the amps show signs or attributes I do not like I shall tell MB and post my remarks I can assure you of that! If they do not work right in my system I shall either send them back or sell them to someone where they can work better within a system that can use them to their best. I do tell it like it is when I audition equipment I either own or borrow.like or dislike.

Sorry,but I have no more time to waste on your unwarranted anger! Have a good stress free life!

hk29 · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 11:35 pm »

gosh, I didn't mean to cause such a fuss.

I put an order in. I've purchased a marble 9.0, CD-1, and MB-100 - and I've never really been disappointed. I think the marble 9.0 were definitely the best purchase of them all. So I'm not worried that the LeAmps II are a great value. I'm more worried if its going to sound like $1000 or $1500 amps (some indication of quality).

I think norh puts out great value products. But the marble 9.0 was truely reference quality.

Now ... the paintfully waiting game ...

Marbles · « **Reply #18 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 11:36 pm »

Abex,

While ETR may have been a bit harsh, what he is trying to say is that in audio it is really hard to predict how a piece will sound without hearing it for yourself.

To make comments like one is better and one is a rippoff without hearing both of them yourself only does a disservice to the amps and you.

Reminds me of a Rudyard Kipling poem the opening stanza is:

The Ladies

Now I aren't no hand with the Ladies
For taking em all along
You never can say till you've tried them
and then you are apt to be wrong!

ABEX · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Jun 2003, 11:53 pm »

Marbles:
And at the same time I am trying to make the point that others should be aware of what types of speakers they will not be capable of driving. I was intrested in the amp till I read the specs ,ehich I am aware are not the last point in chooseing an amp.There are concerns on weather they can drive real world speakers and not speakers that can be driven by SET amps and need a Mod that cost over 2X the stock price plus have the addition of a fan in order to sound good.

I also disagree with the assertion that they are SOTA in the arena of na,es such as Pass. If that is the case I shall be buying them,but I cannot as my speakers need ample amount of power capable of providing a load down to 2ohms.

If MB is wrong with is assertions on veiling and power capability then I shall be the first as a consumer to call him on this,but as HK stated he should not be attacked on the merit of this as he has already produced good products.

The mod for $500 is alittle to steep IMO and the power capability should be addressed to consumers who are looking to get it.That is my point. I did not say it was a rip .but if the consumer is unaware of it's capabilities and buys it then it is bad PR.

Your CD's are made and I have a ferw others going out this week BTW!