AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Virtue Audio Owners => Topic started by: cynan on 10 Jan 2010, 03:43 am
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Though this might be jumping the gun a bit, I thought it might be useful to have a thread where knowledgeable users can share tips about assembly/enclosure options/etc for the Antek PSU kit (based on the PS-3N30) sanctioned and offered by Virtue.
I'll start with a quesiton: WIth the kit offered from Virtue, is anything else required other than an AC power cord? What about a fuse module - required? Recommended?
Also, I caught these two versions of this kit on ebay. The former seems to be a more compact form facter, and perhaps and older layout. Aside from the layout, can anyone tell me an advantage of one over the other? Note that the Virtue kit includes the DC power cord and barrel connector, while these bare-bones versions from Antek do not. What the heck is Gecko anyway?
Note: The first indicates a 200VA transformer, but this is certainly a typo and should read 300VA (as all PS-3N30 are 300VA)
Kit 1: http://cgi.ebay.com/30V-300W-CNC-Mill-Router-Power-Supply-Gecko-Driver_W0QQitemZ370306510052QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5637fcece4 (http://cgi.ebay.com/30V-300W-CNC-Mill-Router-Power-Supply-Gecko-Driver_W0QQitemZ370306510052QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5637fcece4)
Kit 2: http://cgi.ebay.com/30V-300W-CNC-Mill-Router-Power-Supply-Gecko-Driver_W0QQitemZ250539218368QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a554d15c0 (http://cgi.ebay.com/30V-300W-CNC-Mill-Router-Power-Supply-Gecko-Driver_W0QQitemZ250539218368QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a554d15c0)
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Looks to me like you will need a suitable case for a start. Then I would suggest an IEC inlet socket that comes with its own mains switch and fuse holder. I would then suggest a 3.15 amp slow-blow fuse. Note slow blow not fast blow!
You need wiring off course, probably taken from an existing mains lead (strip of the cover and take out the three wires inside). Either solder the wires to the IEC socket or use crimp terminal connectors. The earth connection is meant to be crimped rather than soldered anyway.
If you use a metal case, you must connect it to mains earth. I suggest an umbilical lead to your amp that should pass out through the case using a suitable rubber grommet.
I do not recommend people working with mains voltages if they are not proficient but you can find out much more about power supplies at
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/gainclone_psu.html (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/gainclone_psu.html)
That bit about the light-bulb tester is very important!
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Personally, not being very comfortable poking around with potentially dangerous electrical current, I just opted for the assembled JT Dynamic Power version of the Antek PS. I did open up my One to change the fuse to accommodate the 30v/130w switching supply, but that's as far as I'll go, I think, but one never says never, eh?
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This is indeed a useful thread and y'all are encouraged to both be very careful with assembly and to buy from Antek directly if you prefer. We'll be bundling a DC cable with our Antek kit but the onus of assembly is still on you and there are plenty of parts to buy and opportunities to screw up.
The turn-key solution for US customers is the Astron supply, which you can also buy elsewhere, or the JTDP assembled unit which will give you another 2 volts out of the box (Astron can be adjusted up internally), half the weight, and a prettier case.
I'm not going to pick winners in this respect and as with speakers, would prefer to be neutral. It's an area where the sonics of your system will vary quite dramatically and picking the right supply will be a personal decision that will depend on many things including price, convenience, power conditioning, speaker sensitivity, etc.
We'll continue to provide choices that represent high value and respect the wishes of our partners to have their products resold by us, or not.
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Nick (nuuk), shame on me for not having a soft-start for you sooner. Jeeze... you're going to love that ONE powered by one of your over-the-top gainclone (bah!) supplies.
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Don't worry Mr CBW! :wink: Because of the snow here I am behind on ordering the parts that I need to complete my second (and much larger) V1/V2 supply. The ox is slow but the earth is patient as they say! :)
May I re-iterate what Seth says about different power supplies being like different speakers. They do change the sound of the amp, and therefore the system. So what is 'best' in one system, may not be so in another. :!:
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I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the Paul Hynes supply, Nick. That should be one for our customers to consider as well.
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Looks to me like you will need a suitable case for a start. Then I would suggest an IEC inlet socket that comes with its own mains switch and fuse holder. I would then suggest a 3.15 amp slow-blow fuse. Note slow blow not fast blow!
First, thank you for participating in this discussion; from that link you provided, you seem to possess exceeding knowledge and experience with audio PSUs.
I would like to ask a couple of questions - and please forgive my ignorance in advance: The fuse in the IEC socket is to protect against surges in input AC current, correct? Would you know if the fuse modules that accompany the Antek PSUs (the ones that sit atop the terminal PCB) accomplish the same function? Or do these protect against output DC current surges (secondary fuses on the DC rails)? If the fuses in this module do govern input AC current, can these modules be used in place of a fuse in the IEC socket?
Also, reading through your webpage, I noticed that you state that large capacitors will potentially rob some of the midrange detail (your example uses 10,000 uFs - which is what comes with the Antek PS-3N30). Do you think the capacitors in the PS-3N30 are too large?
Finally, do you think that the 300W PS-3N30 is already overkill? Would the 400W or 500W versions of this PSU add any benefit in your experience? If these are overkill, what is the limitting factor? The tripath chip itself - or other factors in the DC pathway (such as the small gauge DC cable that will be compatible with the barrel connectors on the Virtue amplifiers)
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We have our own 22,000 uF tank caps in the circuit which reduce the need for such caps on the PSU presumably. On the new ONE.2 we also have 330uF FM caps and 4.7uF XLR caps across the power traces to the output chips. This multi-tiered strategy is designed to alleviate the problem mentioned and has been "validated" on ICEPower amps and others. However, not every system seems to need it... Sensation uses a 4-pole, low ESR tank cap exclusively, and the mids/highs are just fine.
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The fuse in the IEC socket is to protect against surges in input AC current, correct? Would you know if the fuse modules that accompany the Antek PSUs (the ones that sit atop the terminal PCB) accomplish the same function? Or do these protect against output DC current surges (secondary fuses on the DC rails)? If the fuses in this module do govern input AC current, can these modules be used in place of a fuse in the IEC socket?
The fuse is there to protect the mains lead. If there is one on the input of the PSU module, you won't need another one.
Also, reading through your webpage, I noticed that you state that large capacitors will potentially rob some of the midrange detail (your example uses 10,000 uFs - which is what comes with the Antek PS-3N30). Do you think the capacitors in the PS-3N30 are too large?
Those comments apply specifically to the Gainclone type amps. I currently use 10K+6K8+ smaller bypass caps in my own V1/V2 PSU.
Finally, do you think that the 300W PS-3N30 is already overkill? Would the 400W or 500W versions of this PSU add any benefit in your experience? If these are overkill, what is the limiting factor? The tripath chip itself - or other factors in the DC pathway (such as the small gauge DC cable that will be compatible with the barrel connectors on the Virtue amplifiers)
Yes, for the V1/V2 I would say that 300W is probably overkill. I'm currently using an 80VA transformer in my own PSU and it works very well. I will be using larger transformers (300VA) in my next PSU but only because that is what I have to hand (at the voltages I need). When you start going larger than 300VA, and adding large reservoir caps, then it is time to start thinking about a soft-start unit for the PSU, as well as the amp, and everything starts getting over-complicated. :|
The bottom line is that these amps are very efficient and don't need the monster PSU's that other types of amp may require! :wink:
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Sorry, the fuse isn't there to protect the mains lead, but the same still applies, ie if there is a fuse on the input of the PSU module, you don't need another. :)
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Nick,
Can you tell me what you discovered with the Hynes supply? You're THE authority on the ONE/TWOs so nobody can give a before and after like you can!
Seth
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I can't say too much about the PH supply Seth as it is the subject of a forthcoming review on TNT.
Suffice to say here that it is a country mile ahead of a basic linear supply! I would seriously doubt that there is a better supply for the V1/V2!
The regulated supply, using the Pedja Rogic discrete regulator is also very good but I have not yet compared both supplies in the same system.
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Our cable guru Jason (the JT of JT Dynamic Power) sent me some photos today of his smokin' little Antek rig. It's gorgeous and well built. Check it out.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26564)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26565)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26566)
James T. got one of these girls a few days ago and I look forward to his reports. Of course, he sent Jason some crazy expensive power cable to hard-wire into it... (that's why we love you James). Others will get a Schurter IEC socket on the back - put whatever IEC terminated goodness you want back there.
On a related note, we're going to do a "modder" program with the Sensation M451. I'll pay (eat the cost) to send the units to Jason and you can work out with him whatever upgrades you want... and then he'll ship you the modded amp. You can change the input caps, wiring, posts, pot, whatever. Jason does solid work and won't rip you off. You can even send him the parts and he'll just solder-em. Same with your ONEs and TWOs..
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Sweet lookin' power supply! Great work Jason, can't wait to hook one up... :thumb:
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thanks Cornelis
I worked hard to fit it all in there :)
here is a picture of the final version for you guys.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26572)
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My dear friend helped me on the Virtue Two mod and i collected the aamp tonight. Will get a chance to listen to it before the CNY. Mod included the following:
1) Volume pot changed to 20k smd step attenuator. I manage to find one seller here in Hong Kong that sells exactly what i need, with the right "d" shaft type so i can still use the orignal virtue knob.
2) input coupling caps with ultra resolution (and expensive) Aura-Teflon 0.1uf installed as 80hz high pass network and switchable to (2.3uf Auricap + Aura-Teflon).
3) Internal wires connecting to speaker terminal changed to single crystal copper "OHNO" wires available from Audience.
I have high expectation on the Aura-teflon. I like lots of details and harmonics, especially on violin recordings. Let's see...
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U techies are incredible !!! no pic of the front panel !! please Jason let's see that brushed aluminum.....
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Coleman - good stuff! Just remember that those Audience teflon caps take years to break in. The ones dug up at Giza still require break-in. As for the front of the JT supply, I hear that black annodize is the new hairline brush. In the quantities JT was ordering, brushing was just not an option.
PS - that Ohno wire from Audience smokes.
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here is the front anyways :)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26574)
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Thanks Seth,
It looks good...looking forward to receiving mine.... :D
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Hey Everyone-
I have just 70+ hours on my JT Dynamic power supply, so this is hardly a final impression, but this is what it's like so far:
The JT power supply is quieter, and cleaner than the stock Antek. How much quieter? I have to hook up the Red Wine Audio Black Lightning SLA battery pack to be sure, but it posseses much of the quietness and purity of the battery pack.
The JT Dynamic power supply is also faster, airier, and more extended in the upper frequencies than the stock Antek, which is more weighted towards the bass. Think Spectral in comparison to other solid state units. For enlightened tube guys, Lamm vs. ARC or C-J. Just fast and effortless.
Bass is powerful, deep, and extended. It's not yet as floor rippling as the stock Antek (which I love), and I miss some of its "bloom", but the Kimber PC and the rhodium/silver/copper AC plug are notoriously slow to burn-in (some say 500 hours or more).
The JT Dynamic, with its all-black, brushed aluminum enclosure, truly fits next to the Sensation. It certainly looks the part of a quality audio piece. It's approx. four times the size of the 130w switching psu, and is much heavier. Jason did a really great job putting it together, and fulfilled my special requests (hardwired Kimber PK-10 cord and matching plug) gladly. Thanks, Jason!
Much more to come as I burn the unit in.
Mahalo,
James
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Would love to hear a comparison between the 130w switching supply and the JT supply if you have the time.
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Great looking enclosure!
I was wondering if you could tell me what thickness aluminum the side/back/top/bottom panels were? (0.080mm)?
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I helped Jason source the enclosure for this first producton; it's based on the EAS 500 unit from LMBHeeger. Sides/bottom/top is .094", end plates are .080" (inches). For an off-the-shelf enclosure in modest volumes, it's a good buy and they machined the custom holes in a week! Would a beefy brushed, end-plate be nice? Sure thing. However, for a first production it looks great and if you put it behind the AV rack, no matter ;-) The components are snug and the overall package has a very modest profile, for the power. It's considerably smaller and lighter than the Astron.
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Re: 130w psu vs. JT Dynamic psu:
I've been struggling to put into words the difference between the different supplies, 130w vs. Antek or JT; perhaps it's better if I back up a bit and describe the sound of the Sensation first.
While the small Virtue amps have a familial sound, and they get progressively more defined and natural as you proceed up the line (from One to One.2 to Two), the Sensation is, and sounds like, a different product. The Virtue amps' emphasis on its warm, tube-like, "Tripath" sound is replaced with a faster, more immediate, open and detailed "Tripath" sound in the Sensation. In other words, it takes different strengths of the Tripath design. Not that it isn't warm or natural sounding. Instead, I believe, it's a more balanced and complete design.
I also believe its potential is higher, but can be more demanding. When I tried the Sensation with the 90w psu, I thought it was a step back from the Two + 130w. With the 130w, the sound is open, transparent, sweet and airy, with a wonderful balance. Bass is extended and controlled. With the Antek and the JT Dynamic (now with 150+ hours and still breaking in my power cord), the bass is powerful and more foundational. The big supplies give the Sensation more authority and more body to the lower and mid frequencies, more fleshed out, as it were.
James
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The JT power supply is quieter, and cleaner than the stock Antek.
I'm confused! Isn't the JT supply, a stock Antek put into a nice case? Or have I missed something? :scratch:
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I'm confused! Isn't the JT supply, a stock Antek put into a nice case? Or have I missed something? :scratch:
Yes, I believe so. Maybe, poor wiring when the stock unit was assembled?
Here is the pic of the JT supply.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26566)
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I asked Jason to add a couple of tweaks to my JT power supply. I liked what they did and I believe they'll be part of the standard JT Dynamic package.
James
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I asked Jason to add a couple of tweaks to my JT power supply. I liked what they did and I believe they'll be part of the standard JT Dynamic package.
James
I see. Care to share the tweaks with us? :wink:
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Guys
I will be adding filter caps across the power caps for filtering as a standard on my supplies
they will look more like this without the hard wired power cord
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26819)
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Holy geez, I can't wait to hook one of these puppies up to my new M901...I'm so excited, I'm practically vibrating...
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I hope that you will all find this interesting! :wink:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/hynes_psu_e.html (http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/hynes_psu_e.html)
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Hi,
I'm curious if anyone has compared the basic Antek PS-3N30 to the Astron LS10A? (You can't see inside the Astron)
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Hi,
I'm curious if anyone has compared the basic Antek PS-3N30 to the Astron LS10A? (You can't see inside the Astron)
It looks like the Astron is a regulated supply. The Antek isn't!
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Hey Nick,
Fantastic article - loved it. Certainly put Paul in touch with Jason who can start building Paul's regulation circuit into his JT Dynamic Power units.
My understanding from the Antek website is that the standard supply sags only 2v (<7%) between no load and full load. Listening tests suggest that the units rocks, without regulation. The additional 5.7A that it can provide beyond the linear supply makes a big difference in bass response.
The Astron supply is big and ugly but one heck of a value. It can be dialed up from 28v up to 32v and is fully regulated. I think they sell it for radio broadcasters and boat captains mainly (for their radio gear). Does it sounds better than the Antek and as good as the Hynes supply? Probably... marginally. Look forward to someone doing an A:B, I've not done it.
I hate confusing customers with too many options and creating even the slightest possibility for buyers remorse... but alas, that happens in this industry. Should I upgrade the pot? Should I upgrade the caps? Is my supply big enough? Options = anxiety, sorry.
The good news is that we're letting our customers try stuff cheaply and giving them a taste of the high, highend, on a budget. We're not tacking on a big premium or hiding components behind a curtain. You can price shop our supplies - go ahead.
I urge all of my customers to buy what you can afford and enjoy the music. That's the big idea here at Virtue.
Seth
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Can't seem to edit that post... to clarify... the 130w supply is a regulated switching supply, 4.3A. The Antek is a 10A, nearly linear supply... 5.7A more on tap.
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Does it sounds better than the Antek and as good as the Hynes supply? Probably... marginally. Look forward to someone doing an A:B, I've not done it.
In my own experience, the Pedja Rogic regulated supply works better than one using simple regulators (which I presume the Astron does, given its price). The PH supply clearly bettered the Pedja Rogic regulated supply, so I would be very surprised if the Astron was as good as the PH. :wink:
The size of the PH supply is 4 inches by 2 inches, and with an appropriate heatsink I think that it will fit in the same case that Jason has used for the Antek supply. If it does, Jason should be able to quote a price for a 'complete' plug-and-play version.
If anybody is confused, here's a PSU summary.
Virtue 24 SMPS :)
Virtue 30V SMPS :D
Basic linear PSU (eg Antek) :icon_lol:
Regulated linear supply :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
PH supply :drool:
(I haven't tried a good battery supply)
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The Antek is a 10A, nearly linear supply... 5.7A more on tap.
Ok. I'm not sure what regulation means. Is there regulation with just a transformer, rectifier bridge, and output caps? What makes a "near linear" supply?
TIA -
Mark
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Ok. I'm not sure what regulation means. Is there regulation with just a transformer, rectifier bridge, and output caps? What makes a "near linear" supply?
TIA -
Mark
With a basic linear power supply, the output voltage of the supply can fluctuate according to the supply voltage.
Using some sort of regulation will fix the output supply at a certain voltage.
Regulation can also improve the quality of the supply by reducing ripple and noise.
A supply is either linear or not. Just like a lady can't be a nearly pregnant! :wink:
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I have a one.2 on order w/ the 30v/90w supply upgrade, was thinking about
going up to the 130w but was intriqued by the battery ps option but now I might wait and see if anyone tries one of the JT supplys with the new amps (one's or two's) and reports on it or at least till I can save the money for the JT
Interesting report on the PH supply by TNT
Also wodering if the Antek kit form is the same as the current JT built one but w/o a case?
Also Seth if you read this do you have the current JT supplies ready to go?
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Jason built up 11 of them this weekend and I think 9 of those are sold. He has 15 more cases ready and waiting and can order more innards from Antek quite quickly. If you'd like him to put a PH supply in the case, I'm sure be thrilled to do it. He does minor mods on the Antek but it's mostly functional stuff -- fuses, power jack, cables, etc -- that he could do with any supply (not just Antek). You can calculate what he charges for assembly and packaging by subtracting the total price from what the Antek costs on ebay, etc.
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I hope that you will all find this interesting! :wink:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/hynes_psu_e.html (http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/hynes_psu_e.html)
350 Pounds. That would be in the neighborhood of about $750 right? I'm sure it is an improvement, but a PSU that nearly costs as much as the Sensation M901 itself seems a bit hard to justify for those who are attracted to the value of the Virtue amps in the first place. The Antek with a regulation circuit mod sounds like it truly would be worth the extra cost though. :) I'm not sure exactly how big a deal power ripple is for sound, but I certainly hear the subject brought up a lot in the tube world. Perhaps it is less critical to solid state circuits......
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Hi Xcalibur,
£350 at today's exchange rate is around $535.
If an upgrade moves the overall performance to a higher level how much is this improved performance worth? It will depend on whether your priority lies with price or performance. It's all a question of degree. How far do you want to go in the pursuit of high quality music reproduction? Enthusiasts spend more than this on a high-end cable.
Regards
Paul
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I agree wholeheartedly with Paul. The sound quality of the Virtue amps is more than high enough to warrant searching for the best combination. The amps sound terrific with the 130w smps, but even better with the Red Wine Audio Black Lightning or JT Dynamic/Antek. The Paul Hynes would be a welcome option for those pushing the envelope. That the Virtue amps are "value-priced", well, that just makes things more fun.
James
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Hi Xcalibur,
£350 at today's exchange rate is around $535.
If an upgrade moves the overall performance to a higher level how much is this improved performance worth? It will depend on whether your priority lies with price or performance. It's all a question of degree. How far do you want to go in the pursuit of high quality music reproduction? Enthusiasts spend more than this on a high-end cable.
Regards
Paul
I wouldn't disagree with you here, not at all. I'm sure the improvement is tangible. The point I was trying to make is that the Virtue message has always been high performance for those on a budget, but all of these upgrade options are really quite expensive and seem to contradict that message. I cannot and should not speak for Seth here of course but that is how I see it. I guess I'm just trying to play devils advocate here, since I'm sure many people would appreciate the ability to take the amp to its highest performance level. Cost not withstanding I would probably be one of them, but part of me cringes when options like this appear because it promises even greater audio bliss but represents unforeseen additional damage to the wallet. At any rate it is not my intention to imply your product isn't "worth it" or anything like that so I apologize if it sounded that way.
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Xcaliber,
You're forcing me to editorialize here and I'm bound to piss off a few folks. If that's you, forgive me.
You're not totally wrong. Early on I was approached by a shall not be named vendor who wanted to sell linear supplies to my customers for $1,000. I told him quite frankly, regardless of the sonic merits, why would I want to torture my customers with a "must-have" $1,000 upgrade? There are PLENTY of great amps in the $1,000 + $400 = $1,400 range that don't recommend ANY upgrades, right?
And that's something I totally hated before starting Virtue: "must-have" upgrades that I couldn't afford and which did nothing but make me feel like crap for "settling" with what I had bought.
So here's the deal. We make a great amp for the money. We spent all of last year trying to do better and we showed off all this fancy new stuff at RMAF and we were running it on Vinnie's battery supply and in our room, it sounded pretty good (on the old and the new). And then Danny Richie took them both to his "anoechoic" treated room on his glorious 97db Venues...and compared the switching and battery supplies. In that pristine listening environment, the difference from cleaner power vastly exceeded that of any of our other tweaks. I had wanted to believe that a better supply wouldn't put the amp into a new league because I didn't want to ask my customers to pay more for it, but there it was. Better PSU, better sound. Especially with more sensitive speakers. I'd been through the same cycle of denial with the 130w supply... too expensive! and now with the battery and linear supplies... again.
Does it upset me that a $600 supply sounds good with our amps? What if Paul charged $1,200.. should that upset me... or you?
Here's the cool thing. You can go and buy batteries online and your own charger, hook it up, and get a DAMN near "price-no-object" power supply for these amps for under $100. Feel like a bit of hand-holding, some best practices, and more confidence, buy a GR Research battery kit for $200. Want something totally finished, with a few bells and whistles and a relationship with one of the nicest guys in the business, let Vinnie at RWA hook you up for $600. Don't like batteries? Start with the Antek kit, move up to JT Dynamic Power... or all the way up to a Paul Hynes kit.
What would I do? Well, I have the 130w regulated supply on my system and it sounds great. Would the amp sound better with Paul's kit? I trust Nick's judgement - yes. Would I buy Paul's kit for myself? Frankly, no. I have no disposable income and if I had an extra $600 I'd take Melissa on vacation. Should you buy one? It's a personal decision and I'll give you a hug if you do! Like Vinnie Rossi, who will also sell you a $600 supply, Paul's a great guy and you should feel great supporting good people in this industry who toil night and day to build high-value products!
We let the genie out of the bottle once we decided to let you plug a 3rd party supply into the unit. You're going to be tempted by $600 supplies and there are folks out there who will attest that an even more expensive supply sounds better.
Is it bitter-sweet for me that our amps can be improved with better PSUs? Yeah, it is. But you know what? They will also sound better with better speakers and better room treatment and... just because they do doesn't mean that you shouldn't pick a price point and get the most enjoyment out of them that you can and know that for the money you made a very smart decision.
Did I do you sentiment justice? Paul, did I piss you off?
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Well said Seth.............enough of this futile quest for audio nirvana...get the best for what you can afford,then sit back and enjoy the music...there will always be better.......
Xcaliber,
You're forcing me to editorialize here and I'm bound to piss off a few folks. If that's you, forgive me.
You're not totally wrong. Early on I was approached by a shall not be named vendor who wanted to sell linear supplies to my customers for $1,000. I told him quite frankly, regardless of the sonic merits, why would I want to torture my customers with a "must-have" $1,000 upgrade? There are PLENTY of great amps in the $1,000 + $400 = $1,400 range that don't recommend ANY upgrades, right?
And that's something I totally hated before starting Virtue: "must-have" upgrades that I couldn't afford and which did nothing but make me feel like crap for "settling" with what I had bought.
So here's the deal. We make a great amp for the money. We spent all of last year trying to do better and we showed off all this fancy new stuff at RMAF and we were running it on Vinnie's battery supply and in our room, it sounded pretty good (on the old and the new). And then Danny Richie took them both to his "anoechoic" treated room on his glorious 97db Venues...and compared the switching and battery supplies. In that pristine listening environment, the difference from cleaner power vastly exceeded that of any of our other tweaks. I had wanted to believe that a better supply wouldn't put the amp into a new league because I didn't want to ask my customers to pay more for it, but there it was. Better PSU, better sound. Especially with more sensitive speakers. I'd been through the same cycle of denial with the 130w supply... too expensive! and now with the battery and linear supplies... again.
Does it upset me that a $600 supply sounds good with our amps? What if Paul charged $1,200.. should that upset me... or you?
Here's the cool thing. You can go and buy batteries online and your own charger, hook it up, and get a DAMN near "price-no-object" power supply for these amps for under $100. Feel like a bit of hand-holding, some best practices, and more confidence, buy a GR Research battery kit for $200. Want something totally finished, with a few bells and whistles and a relationship with one of the nicest guys in the business, let Vinnie at RWA hook you up for $600. Don't like batteries? Start with the Antek kit, move up to JT Dynamic Power... or all the way up to a Paul Hynes kit.
What would I do? Well, I have the 130w regulated supply on my system and it sounds great. Would the amp sound better with Paul's kit? I trust Nick's judgement - yes. Would I buy Paul's kit for myself? Frankly, no. I have no disposable income and if I had an extra $600 I'd take Melissa on vacation. Should you buy one? It's a personal decision and I'll give you a hug if you do! Like Vinnie Rossi, who will also sell you a $600 supply, Paul's a great guy and you should feel great supporting good people in this industry who toil night and day to build high-value products!
We let the genie out of the bottle once we decided to let you plug a 3rd party supply into the unit. You're going to be tempted by $600 supplies and there are folks out there who will attest that an even more expensive supply sounds better.
Is it bitter-sweet for me that our amps can be improved with better PSUs? Yeah, it is. But you know what? They will also sound better with better speakers and better room treatment and... just because they do doesn't mean that you shouldn't pick a price point and get the most enjoyment out of them that you can and know that for the money you made a very smart decision.
Did I do you sentiment justice? Paul, did I piss you off?
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$535.
Enthusiasts spend more than this on a high-end cable.
Regards
Paul
...and they are nuts! I've done it and will not do it again. Heck, I've got a closet full of that stuff...
I know nothing about the Virtue battery needs. I can say that I use a Dodd Buffer and just use a 12V battery with a charger. Can't one do the same for the Virture? My batt & charger was $80.
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Hi Excalibur,
I understand about wallet damage and wasn’t offended. I started providing SR1 power supplies a few years ago at what I thought was a good price (£160 at the time) but people just keep asking me to build bigger and/or better power supplies and unfortunately the price increases as you go down this path.
Hi Seth,
You haven’t pissed me off. In fact I rather admire your stance regarding power supplies. Many manufacturers go bananas when someone suggests their product power supplies can be upgraded.
I recognise that some of my products would be considered expensive by some, especially if they are DIY enthusiasts. All my products are currently hand built. The cost of living in my country is quite high and this is reflected in any labour intensive product manufacture. I provide built and tested regulator modules, to enable those with reasonable basic assembly skills to build their own high performance power supplies, for noticeably less cost than the finished power supplies. There is a market for both options as those without assembly skills look for a no worries plug and play solution. The heavy-duty version of the PR3 module that Nick tested costs £120, that’s around $183 at today’s exchange rate. Add a transformer, a case, a heat sink (may not be necessary if the case can sink enough heat), a few connectors and some safety protection like a fuse or circuit breaker, and you have a very cost effective high performance power supply.
Hi jtwrace,
If you want to power Virtue amps with batteries it can be tricky applying them especially with regard to current surges when making connections. Also balancing the charge between series connected batteries. Some form of battery management system like the one Vinnie uses would be a good idea.
Regards
Paul
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Xcaliber,
You're forcing me to editorialize here and I'm bound to piss off a few folks. If that's you, forgive me.
You're not totally wrong. Early on I was approached by a shall not be named vendor who wanted to sell linear supplies to my customers for $1,000. I told him quite frankly, regardless of the sonic merits, why would I want to torture my customers with a "must-have" $1,000 upgrade? There are PLENTY of great amps in the $1,000 + $400 = $1,400 range that don't recommend ANY upgrades, right?
And that's something I totally hated before starting Virtue: "must-have" upgrades that I couldn't afford and which did nothing but make me feel like crap for "settling" with what I had bought.
So here's the deal. We make a great amp for the money. We spent all of last year trying to do better and we showed off all this fancy new stuff at RMAF and we were running it on Vinnie's battery supply and in our room, it sounded pretty good (on the old and the new). And then Danny Richie took them both to his "anoechoic" treated room on his glorious 97db Venues...and compared the switching and battery supplies. In that pristine listening environment, the difference from cleaner power vastly exceeded that of any of our other tweaks. I had wanted to believe that a better supply wouldn't put the amp into a new league because I didn't want to ask my customers to pay more for it, but there it was. Better PSU, better sound. Especially with more sensitive speakers. I'd been through the same cycle of denial with the 130w supply... too expensive! and now with the battery and linear supplies... again.
Does it upset me that a $600 supply sounds good with our amps? What if Paul charged $1,200.. should that upset me... or you?
Here's the cool thing. You can go and buy batteries online and your own charger, hook it up, and get a DAMN near "price-no-object" power supply for these amps for under $100. Feel like a bit of hand-holding, some best practices, and more confidence, buy a GR Research battery kit for $200. Want something totally finished, with a few bells and whistles and a relationship with one of the nicest guys in the business, let Vinnie at RWA hook you up for $600. Don't like batteries? Start with the Antek kit, move up to JT Dynamic Power... or all the way up to a Paul Hynes kit.
What would I do? Well, I have the 130w regulated supply on my system and it sounds great. Would the amp sound better with Paul's kit? I trust Nick's judgement - yes. Would I buy Paul's kit for myself? Frankly, no. I have no disposable income and if I had an extra $600 I'd take Melissa on vacation. Should you buy one? It's a personal decision and I'll give you a hug if you do! Like Vinnie Rossi, who will also sell you a $600 supply, Paul's a great guy and you should feel great supporting good people in this industry who toil night and day to build high-value products!
We let the genie out of the bottle once we decided to let you plug a 3rd party supply into the unit. You're going to be tempted by $600 supplies and there are folks out there who will attest that an even more expensive supply sounds better.
Is it bitter-sweet for me that our amps can be improved with better PSUs? Yeah, it is. But you know what? They will also sound better with better speakers and better room treatment and... just because they do doesn't mean that you shouldn't pick a price point and get the most enjoyment out of them that you can and know that for the money you made a very smart decision.
Did I do you sentiment justice? Paul, did I piss you off?
Well Said Seth
I to have been trying to decide on which power supply to get w/ my one-2, after some research I ordered the 130w thinking I coud sell it and upgrade later. I was thinking I could get Red Wines battery supply and use it with my Nova Phenomona also, but a good point to bring up is that for the same money I could by another one.2 w/ the 130 watt supply and biamp my speakers, which would be the best for my dollar? I think the latter, but I might change my mind once I hear the amp on my speakers.
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Paul -
Thanks for joining this discussion and your constructive feedback. You perform a great service for us. Do note that the soft-start circuits in the new amps provide a 1 second start-up trough a 20 Ohm thermistor. There's the question of regulation and sag certainly and we didn't support batteries initially because of it. However, I've heard the setup and it sounds great! RWA made a good business from their battery powered Tripath amps and it took us a while to catch on. I welcome A:B comparisons - Nick.
About bi-amping... neat idea. That would work for sure. You can jumper a channel on the POT to lock the woofer at max, and use the volume knob to change the relative volume of the tweeter. You'd still need a pre-amp in this situation. If you choose to do it, let me know how it works out!
I personally would rather not defeat the cross-over in the speaker. They often do lots of things and bi-amping seemed "risky" to me. Would anyone like to educate me on the subject?
Seth
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I personally would rather not defeat the cross-over in the speaker. They often do lots of things and bi-amping seemed "risky" to me. Would anyone like to educate me on the subject?
Bi-amping is simply using an amp for each speaker. If the speakers use passive crossovers you still use them.
Going active, is using an amp for each speaker driver, and using an active crossover before the amps instead of a passive one between amp(s) and driver(s).
A fuller description (and pictures) is at http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/loudspeakers.html#goingactive (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/loudspeakers.html#goingactive) (scroll up a bit from 'Going Active'.
RWA made a good business from their battery powered Tripath amps and it took us a while to catch on. I welcome A:B comparisons - Nick.
It's a question of getting a battery supply for review Seth. I'm even more broke than you! :lol:
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Hi Seth,
I am a hands on sort of guy and don’t mind talking power supplies, although some of my stuff is the subject of non disclosure agreements, so there will be areas where I am not at liberty to talk.
The PR3 regulator topology has a slow start characteristic and takes around 5 seconds to reach full voltage on the output, so you would not need the thermistor with one of these regulators. I can vary the slow start timing if necessary depending on the application. This is also very useful for powering valve heaters as it prevents high inrush currents.
Regards
Paul
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It would seem I set off a far larger debate than I ever intended. My apologies for stirring unrest. The thought that was on my mind when I expressed my previous thoughts was this: it seems as though every company that starts out trying to offer high value ends up gradually moving further and further upstream until they become one of the many expensive high end audio makers. I'm sure there are many reasons for it. Pricing pressures and structure, demands from customers wanting to go upmarket but stay with the brand they've come to love, etc. I would just hate to see Virtue go this way because you guys do value so amazingly well and right now audio enthusiasts who are just discovering their love for the hobby but don't have much to spend need a company like this to show them the potential of their music without demanding they make payments on it for a year in return. Companies I've admired in the past have gone this route and ended up basically losing their identity. There are lots of high end makers out there but not very many high value that really get it right. It is easy to keep "pushing it further" without realizing you've pushed yourself into a completely different realm of pricing and availability and I think it would be a shame to see Virtue go this way in the future when they are bringing new people into the hobby with the current pricing and product lineup.
All of this sounds alarmist and highly speculative, and it is. I just wanted to speak my mind because the enthusiasts who want to push the limit and can afford to do so tend to speak the loudest, but some of us still want a boutique brand that keeps it simple while still sounding amazing.
Of course you could always expand and do both value and high end. I wish Virtue enough success to enable this and more. I'll be here to buy what I can afford regardless.
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What you are describing in terms of transformation for the worst, often has more to do with supporting a tiered dealer network than having the manufacturer charge more. Once you support distributors who sell to stores, you begin to add 40% and then again 40% or more to the manufacturer price. That's a recipe for price inflation and folks like Dell have proven that a direct sales model can work.
However, it's hard and that's dillema for small manufacturers. Why? Because the distributors pay cash up-front. When you buy something from Virtue directly, I probably financed 90% of it 1-2 years prior and have been paying userous interest on the money. It's a great formula for thrilling customers.. and also turning a large fortune into a small one.
We're still figuring out the business model and making adjustments which we must. Would I like to charge less for the amp? You bet. I love delivering "extreme" value. Would it make sense for me to go back to $299 today? No. Would I do it one day? Yes. Will we always look for ways to support our customers? Just look at the soft-start give-away. We're doing our best every day.
I welcome your criticism and if we're not proving our value proposition every day, I want to know. Email me privately if you like.
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Seth-
Virtue- not delivering "extreme value"? My original comments from 2008, regarding my Virtue One w/ 90w power supply, outperforming a Krell at $2500 or a 47 Labs at $2200 still hold true. That's an under 400 dollar amp we're talkng about. When we start nick-picking about power supply options and higher priced options, we're missing the point. The Virtue amps, all of them, make music. Those waiting for their One.2s will be doing handstands very shortly. I chose the Sensation for its remote control, three inputs, and options; that it delivers even better sound is a bonus.
James
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No criticism here Seth. I think you deliver more real value than anybody else in this business right now. Basically what I've been ranting on about is a nebulous fear that all the enthusiasm surrounding adding high end parts to the amps would eventually lead to Virtue just making really expensive amps years down the road to satisfy these desires "out of the box" rather than through modding, which I think would be a shame unless you did both value and high end at the same time. Nothing I wrote was meant as criticism, and I think you've been both extremely honest/transparent as well as completely justified whenever you have announced a need to charge more. A business has to make money to remain in business after all.
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I'm working on my arm and shoulder muscles in preparation for those handstands :D 8) :thumb:
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When we start nick-picking
Don't start picking on me! :lol:
I anticipated the debate, hence the closing paragraph of my review. :wink:
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Xcaliber,
Check out the Sensation M451. The M901 outsells it by 3:1. Why?
Seth
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Point well taken. So long as the next M901 isn't fusion powered and costs 3 grand I won't have anything to be concerned about. I must admit I'd take a 901 over the 451 as well, but that is the nature of audio guys. We can't seem to leave something on the table once we know it is out there. But, the price jump is fairly easy to swallow here, and that is to your credit. Now, if there were a super M901 for...... say $1,500 I'm sure people would buy that too, but I wouldn't be one of them. That would be where the increased cost over the basic version becomes too tough to swallow.
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Xcaliber,
Check out the Sensation M451. The M901 outsells it by 3:1. Why?
Seth
Just my $.02 but I think the Sensation platform is seen by most people as a significant step-up from the One/Two/One.2 platform, so they figure that once they've taken that step, you might as well fully commit. Personally, the M451 would have been "good enough" for me if the M901 hadn't been offered to me by Seth as a trade for the unfortunately delayed Pre/DAC/Headphone amp (but I will HAPPILY take it, thanks, Seth!). Honestly, I don't know that the M451 needs to exist, especially if it's going to sit in the warehouse.
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Thanks for all of your good feedback fellas. I just reversed myself on the price increase on the little amps. I don't have the heart to tell Melissa but sucking it up for another few months is a small price to pay for the kind of good-will we have and the opportunity to sell THOUSANDS of amps at a much more attractive price point. I thought long and hard about keeping the ONE classic below $300 and it was the right decision then as it is now.
As for the M451, it really is quite puzzling to me. If they don't sell and we sell out of the M901 what I will do is allow you to order them fully modded and we'll ship them over to Jason who will turn them into M901s with whatever trimmings you want. Make sense?
Cornelis - just to give a bit of context to your trade-up for the greater audience... I sat on a BUNCH of your money for many months and I'm very appreciative of your patience.
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Aren't most of the M901 sales from the upgrade offer? I mean you made it not that much more to go from the M451 to the M901.
As for the M451, it really is quite puzzling to me. If they don't sell and we sell out of the M901 what I will do is allow you to order them fully modded and we'll ship them over to Jason who will turn them into M901s with whatever trimmings you want.
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Nope. We're selling a bunch of M901s at full pre-order price. I priced the upgrades fairly but knowing that you're going to get most of the performance with the M451 for considerably less money than the M901 (especially if you're using a 3rd party power supply), I was thinking that it would be more attractive, relatively. Especially since it's such a beauty!
This proves that my customer base is very interested in getting the best possible sound from the platform! We'll probably end up converting some of those M451s to M901s or some variant thereof.
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Even though I went for the m451, the biggest reason I would have to switch to the 901 is the sweet looking remote lol.
Biggie.
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Even though I went for the m451, the biggest reason I would have to switch to the 901 is the sweet looking remote lol.
Biggie.
The M451 and the M901 both come with the black plastic remote as standard, the aluminum one is a $99 upgrade for both, so you wouldn't need to switch, FYI. :D
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Ah, good to know the option is there if I want to upgrade some day.
Biggie.
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If you buy Sensation + Piano together (or separately but both) I'll give you the aluminum remote for free. I can't set this up in the shopping cart system but you can hold me to it (remind me).
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Too bad you don't have any programmers around there. :wink:
If you buy Sensation + Piano together (or separately but both) I'll give you the aluminum remote for free. I can't set this up in the shopping cart system but you can hold me to it (remind me).
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Donny, I know that you're dying to rewrite Volusion. Don't you recompile your Windows OS every few weeks after "tweaking" the graphics subsystem? Bshh...
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Actually, I was referring to the "other" programmer. The one that has something to do with a virtuous audio company. :D
Donny, I know that you're dying to rewrite Volusion. Don't you recompile your Windows OS every few weeks after "tweaking" the graphics subsystem? Bshh...
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Keyboards are evil. Get back to work, bro!
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Allow me to go back to discussion on linear power supply for Virtue amplifiers.
According to what I have learned in electrical engineering (correct me if my opinion is wrong/obsolete), followings are stages in a linear power supply:
AC input > step-down transformer > rectifier > capacitor filter > active regulator > output protection > DC output
For unregulated power supply such as JT Dynamic Power, the only stage missing is active regulator as compared with fully regulated Astron LSA-10A linear power supply.
The pitfall with unregulated power supply is susceptibility to fluctuation in AC input and DC load. But the advantages are better transient/bass responses and higher efficiency (thus JT Dynamic Power can achieve 95%). I suppose the active regulator limits current delivered to the speaker in order to maintain DC output voltage and lowers efficiency because of inevitable power dissipation across the active regulator (power source/sink depends on input/output conditions).
By weighting pros and cons between regulated and unregulated linear power supplies (without reference to particular models/brands), which is better for improving audio outputs of Virtue amplifiers (of course taking price into consideration) ? If I have properly conditioned AC outlet without noise, does it mean unregulated power supply is a better choice ? In unregulated linear power supply, how does the power frequency ripple after the capacitor filter stage affect audio outputs of Virtue amplifiers ?
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I'm looking at the picture of the back of the Sensation that's on the website, and I see that it has a different receptacle for the power supply from the Virtue One, looks like a four pin DIN receptacle. Does the DC power cord that ships with the JT Dynamic power supply have adaptors for both amps, or at the very least for the Sensation, which I want to use it with? Please tell me it does, I'm freakin' out a bit, probably for no good reason...
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Every Sensation will ship with an adapter so you can use ANY of our PSUs. They fit very well and are short. So this will be a non-issue.
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Sweet. I knew I was just being neurotic...