AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Well Tempered Lab => Topic started by: ghunter on 24 Feb 2010, 04:17 am
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I've been very happy with my Shelter 501 mk2 on my Amadeus GTA. The Denon DL-103R just didn't do it for me with this table - it sounded brittle and thin. I have a low output Grado that's waiting in the wings but I'm just so thrilled with the Shelter it's still sitting on my desk.
Anyone else care to weigh in with their choice in cartridge?
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I have an older Well Tempered and I couldn't be happier with the Ortofon 2M Black.
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Great to have a site for this superb table. I actually anticipate auditioning a bunh of cartridges later this month at my local dealer. I told him I'd give him a non-refundable deposit if he would order a few carts for me to audition. I anticipate ordering the 17d3, Shelter 501, Lyra Dorian and Lyra Delos.
I used to own the 17d2 (among other carts- my fave has been the DV Te Kaitora Rua, but I digress) and frankly did not like it. The shelter is recommended by my dealer and the Lyra's were recommended by WTL when I called New Zealand.
To be faithful to his advice though WTL recommended the DV carts first then the Lyra line. It'll be exciting to hear the possibilities of the new Delos cartridge in particular.
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I heard that the Well Tempered table work very well with Grado cartridges. I use a Grado Reference Sonata with my WT Classic.
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Great to have a site for this superb table. I actually anticipate auditioning a bunh of cartridges later this month at my local dealer. I told him I'd give him a non-refundable deposit if he would order a few carts for me to audition. I anticipate ordering the 17d3, Shelter 501, Lyra Dorian and Lyra Delos.
I used to own the 17d2 (among other carts- my fave has been the DV Te Kaitora Rua, but I digress) and frankly did not like it. The shelter is recommended by my dealer and the Lyra's were recommended by WTL when I called New Zealand.
To be faithful to his advice though WTL recommended the DV carts first then the Lyra line. It'll be exciting to hear the possibilities of the new Delos cartridge in particular.
So WTL/Dynavector recommended DV... Hmmmm, I wonder why that might be :) Years ago JAT had the DV Ruby for $130 plus shipping from Tokyo. Wish I had bought a case of them. FYI: Grado RefPlat is producing more surface noise then expected in my WT classic rig. I am still working on it.
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hiya, I use a Miyabi standard
its quite a rare cart but very musical and unselfconcious
I find it works very very well in the WTA
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Grado "Silver" here.
Best Regards,
TerryO
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Just wanted to refresh this thread to get some more cart feedback from WTA owners. Will be comparing an Ortofon 540, and a Shure M91 with JICO SAS stylus shortly, and will report back my findings. As soon as I settle on a phono stage...
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I'm using the WTA with a London Decca Super Gold cartridge - the "livest" sounding phono cartridge I've ever encountered. I bought the WTA specifically to use with this cart since it puts a substantial amount of energy into the tonearm. The WTA arm damps the resonances wonderfully and lets it sing. It is a near perfect match.
Doak
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I plan on using my Denon DL A100 initially, but am also interested in the Decca.
Sounds like it might be a very interesting combo with the Amadeus. :)
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Hi mark,i'm using the Denon 103R with my WT reference before,but i thing it's not match.but now i'm using WT Amadeus GT,so i don't is it match.
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Here's a link to the Decca London Club on the Lenco board:
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=545.0 (http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=545.0)
Best info on the carts. I am not the only one who has found close to nirvana with the Well Tempered and Decca London combo.
Enjoy,
Doak
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Reading the limited information in this forum, it seems that the standard Denon DL-103 is not a great mate with the Amadeus...
Has anyone tried (or care to speculate) how a Denon DL-103D would fare on the Simplex or Amadeus? Its a higher compliance cartridge and a whole other beast SQ wise then the 103.
It isn't the most lively of cartridge--similar to a Koetsu in terms of being laid back, which left things a tad dull though beautiful on my Well Tempered Reference--from what I've read, it sounds like the Simplex and Amadeus have more life to them intrinsically though.
Thoughts?
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Don't recall where I saw this, but I think somewhere I read mention that the Zu or a Denon 103 with greater mass worked better with the WTA.
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Don't recall where I saw this, but I think somewhere I read mention that the Zu or a Denon 103 with greater mass worked better with the WTA.
Extraordinarily frustrating to read! I screwed up this morning, unmounting my beloved Zu 103 Grade 2 cartridge from my Well Tempered Reference as the table was going to a new owner. While putting the cartridge back in the protective box, my thumb slipped and I snapped the damn cantilever.
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Ohhhhhh....Aww.....
Hate when that happens ... And it has to me also. :roll:
Doak
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Hi. New to the this group. I started with a Dynavector 20x2H and used the phono section on my upgraded Onkyo PR/SC 5508. It sounded very good. I dropped a Heed Quasar pre-amp in last night. Pretty huge difference without any burn-in time on the Heed.
Update. My Oppo 95 upgraded player stomped the above configuration so I moved to an EAR 834P upgraded phono stage and an Ortofon Cadenza Black. This combo has put the Oppo below the vinyl playback quality. I would say the Cad. Black is very nice on the WTA. It likes a little less dampening than the DV20X2. I also got a Fozgometer for setting the azmith and it is a piece of cake to dial dead on.
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I use a denon 103R wth Graham Slee Reflex M and Denon AU-300LC step and after resodering the white tonearm cable cable after not being gentle enough I decided not to swap carts and instead enjoy the current setup with maybe a step up change in the future to a GRAHAM SLEE - ELEVATOR MC STEP UP or a Bobs Devices Stepup
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mgsboedmisodpc2 (not even going to try to pronounce that one),
I have heard mixed reviews of the Denon 103 and 103R on the WTA. A lot of folks tend to mod these carts with a heavier wood or aluminum body. Zu and Soundsmith both offer tweaked Denons built like this (IIRC), but you can also buy metal or wood bodies and perform the mod yourself.
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I just pulled the trigger on a SoundSmith SMMC4 MI cart, to tide me over as I await a rebuild of a Dyna XX-2 cart from Soundsmith. Will post impressions when I am able. At present, my fave is a Shure M91ED with a Jico SAS. But I haven't explored beyond the $1-200 range just yet.
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I enjoy my SoundSmith Strain Gauge SG-200 very much. Fastest and most detailed pickup/pre i have ever owned. It replaced a ZYX Yatra that i can also recommend.
keep spinning
bernie
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Hi. I use a Benz ACE S moving coil on my WT Record Player and a friend of mine uses the high output version on his WTA. Both decks sound amazing.
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Hi Doak, is this a newer Decca? Can you explain the setup...for example, how much the golf ball is damped and how slowly the arm drops to the record? I have been considering the same cartridge as I also thought the tailored damping of the WTA arm would be ideal. Do you have any issues with sibilance? Thanks!
I'm using the WTA with a London Decca Super Gold cartridge - the "livest" sounding phono cartridge I've ever encountered. I bought the WTA specifically to use with this cart since it puts a substantial amount of energy into the tonearm. The WTA arm damps the resonances wonderfully and lets it sing. It is a near perfect match.
Doak
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Yes, I'm using a new Super Gold. It and the WTA are "marriage made in heaven" IMO. :D
I started with a lot of damping on the arm - golf ball over 1/3 into silicone and VERY slow arm movement. I found this to over-damp things and the time for the arm to settle was WAY too long. I've been able to to raise the ball considerably, have very free movement of the arm - just a bit of resistance - little settling time, and experience no downside in sound -- actually it sounds even more lively.
I am using clay damping on the outside of the cartridge body and also a thin graphite sheet between the cartridge and headshell. Works for me!
Doak
Hi Doak, is this a newer Decca? Can you explain the setup...for example, how much the golf ball is damped and how slowly the arm drops to the record? I have been considering the same cartridge as I also thought the tailored damping of the WTA arm would be ideal. Do you have any issues with sibilance? Thanks!
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Hey Doak, wow, thanks for the very detailed information. Is the clay damping something like bluetac on the headshell? May I ask where you got your Decca? Called Warren Gregoire today but he was a bit short. Seemed like a nice guy though. I have to admit being a bit nervous about the cart though. Seems like the upside is large but with some risk.
Yeah, I have found that the damping on the Well Tempered is nice (a luxury, really) but when it's too much, you lose much from the sound...dynamics, delineation, and pace.
Cheer, Paul
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55712)
This is modeling clay -- I thought it to be "lossier" than than the art tack.
I bought a "nearly new" SG off of Audiogon and had to send it to WG who found a bad coil. Seller paid but if I do it again think I'll buy from here:
http://www.divineaudio.co.uk/hi-fi/cartridges/london-decca-super-gold-cartridge/prod_999.html
If you're not in UK/EU subtract the 20%VAT. I've dealt with Divine Audio a few times and it's always been an absolute pleasure. :inlove:
Believe me Paul, I went into the Decca realm with much trepidation but a lot of research. There's so much "stuff" out there about them it can scare the bejezziz out of you.
When I got the SG in my hands and in front of my eyes I laughed. Reminded me of the engineering/build of a '58 MG. Then I had to deal with a broken cart that had been promised perfect. When I got it back and set it up on the WTA and listened to it I just smiled and still do every time I play a record. :D
Here's a link to the Decca London Club on the Lenco Heaven Forum. Not a lot of action here but the posts are great for mining info on the carts.
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=545.0 (http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=545.0)
Doak
Hey Doak, wow, thanks for the very detailed information. Is the clay damping something like bluetac on the headshell? May I ask where you got your Decca? Called Warren Gregoire today but he was a bit short. Seemed like a nice guy though. I have to admit being a bit nervous about the cart though. Seems like the upside is large but with some risk.
Yeah, I have found that the damping on the Well Tempered is nice (a luxury, really) but when it's too much, you lose much from the sound...dynamics, delineation, and pace.
Cheer, Paul
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hi there, i finally had the time to set up my wta, and guess what happened:
stylus killer syndrome 8(
so my dv 17d3 never get the chance to play correctly and i need a new system now.
my guess is that the "slow" arm in general matches better with heavier systems to get the most out of the groove.
and possibly with low compliance also?
what do you think about that theory?
i have not lookes into it but i heard good commends about the shelter 501 and the benz ace l or s also somebody positively mentioned the ortofon 2m black or maybe somebody actually heard the dv 17d3 on that table?
my price range would be 500 +- 200.
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Not sure what you mean by stylus killer syndrome. Did you break the DV? If so why not get it retipped/rebuilt?
Still waiting on my DV, but they are said to be good matches.
Also not clear what you mean about the arm being slow...
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Agreed, Roscoe.... I re-read the post above yours 5 times and still can't understand it. Stylus killer? Slow arm? What???? I'm lost here. Sorry to be so obtuse.
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A case of butterfingers breaking the DV17D3 ?
Not going to get any of those cartridges (Ace, 501/II, DV17D3) for $700, unless you buy used.
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Phoner the arm is only slow depending on how much damping you have.
I have tried low compliance cartridges: Ortofon SPU Royal, Pickering 380, Denon 103. All worked good. The very heavy Pickering is fab in this arm.
For high compliance, I have a Shure M97x with JICO stylus in the arm right now. I think people would be amazed by this combination.
My opinion is that the arm is more versatile than most but I would think medium and high compliance cartridges would work the best. There are of course anomalies like the Decca, which likes unipivots and damping (very akin to the WTA arm). I think the suspension in moving irons would work well in an arm like the WTA. It is a different suspension than moving coils.
I have had very heavy 12" tonearms and have a heavy arm on my Lenco right now. The Denon 103 (low compliance) performs better in those arms but not by much. I never really tried to dial in the Denon on then WTA so I might be wrong.
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:D
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hi there,
i am not a native speaker so tech talk maybe somewhat missleading from my side, sorry for that.
plink is right, i am referring to the high degree of damping when i say slow.
but also to the observation that with lp's which are not completely flat the arm would have more resistance to follow the bending of the surface, thats what i actually meant with "slow".
i thought heavy systems would go quite well, but thats not quite right because they would sink faster than a light system on a down-slope but rise slower on the up-slope of a bend. so it is really a stand-off on that part between light and heavy systems.
for the compliance, if i understand that right, high compliance means soft suspension of the needle and low compliance a hard suspension, right?
therefore i think it would be good to have a quick needle, tracking the groove in combination with the slow moving arm. that would be a high compliance i guess?
last but not least, with stylus killer syndrome i meant that i broke a needle once again, butterfingers lol.
thx to roscoe for the reminder, that the dv could be retipped evt. , i will look into that.
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You're doing fine... it was me who needed sorted.
Too bad about your 17... Yes, get it re-tipped, by Dynavector.
Best!
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Soundsmith is cheaper...
And not like Soundsmith has a shoddy rep...
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Lol... But it ain't no Dynavector!
( who knows, maybe it's better.)
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True. I have heard this from a number of Dynavector purists. And your decision will likely depend on what you can afford. Never heard any Soundsmith rebuilds badmouthed. And getting the repair from Dyna isn't in my budget right now.
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Hi you... Not necessarily a purist here, just like to keep things sorted. I do indeed want to hear about it when you get it going again..
Question... Can't remember, did you get it and listen before it was damaged? If not, have you ever heard that Dyna in the same setup?
Take care!
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Got the Dyna damaged and had it shipped off. But a buddy is a forkmr Dyna dealer so maybe a chance to compare at some point. I will surely let you know what I can hear.
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Soundsmith is cheaper...
And not like Soundsmith has a shoddy rep...
I don't think you can go wrong with Soundsmith. I called them this morning, expecting to leave a message for someone to call me back regarding their cartridges. Peter Lederman answered the phone, and spent about 30 minutes discussing various options. You can't beat that kind of service on a Sunday morning. . .
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hi there,
i am not a native speaker so tech talk maybe somewhat missleading from my side, sorry for that.
plink is right, i am referring to the high degree of damping when i say slow.
but also to the observation that with lp's which are not completely flat the arm would have more resistance to follow the bending of the surface, thats what i actually meant with "slow".
i thought heavy systems would go quite well, but thats not quite right because they would sink faster than a light system on a down-slope but rise slower on the up-slope of a bend. so it is really a stand-off on that part between light and heavy systems.
I see now Phoner. I agree.
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Wow, I just got a rebuilt XX-2 Mk II back from SoundSmith. Unbelievable. The best my turntable set-up has sounded, even before it has been dialed in precisely on the WTA. The detail, coherence and dynamics are fabulous, with great bass. I am using it with the Dyna P75 phono stage, taking advantage of its PE mode.
Caveats: Do note that I don't have experience with other carts near the XX-2 MkII's list price. This is my first move into LOMC as well. And I have not compared this to a stock Dyna XX-2 Mk II. The only reason I could afford this cart was buying one with the cantilever broken off, and sending it to Soundsmith.
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Good to hear. Enjoy!
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I have recently installed an Ortofon Jubilee on my table as well. Quite impressive in much the same way Roscoe is reporting. As with my Denon 103R seems to be enjoying arm with tail down more than the other way. Looking forward to reading responses to the request for measurements and trying those out on my table as it is very much trial and error here.
David
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Speaking of set-up and to remove some degree of trial and error, please see my suggestion for providing set-up measurements in the thread I started today:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=102552.msg1039669;topicseen#new
There is a lot we can easily measure and report backon thanks to the design of this table...
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Yes, I'm using a new Super Gold. It and the WTA are "marriage made in heaven" IMO. :D
I started with a lot of damping on the arm - golf ball over 1/3 into silicone and VERY slow arm movement. I found this to over-damp things and the time for the arm to settle was WAY too long. I've been able to to raise the ball considerably, have very free movement of the arm - just a bit of resistance - little settling time, and experience no downside in sound -- actually it sounds even more lively.
I am using clay damping on the outside of the cartridge body and also a thin graphite sheet between the cartridge and headshell. Works for me!
Doak
Hi Doak.
Since my Soundsmith SG-200 is out for revision, I'm thinking about giving the DECCAs a try. Could you please explain if you are using the POD-System and if the clay is absolutely necessary or could it be replaced by something more elegant? Where did you get the plastic-screws and what carbon-mat did you use under the headshell? Phono-Pre? I'm asking because the Soundsmith comes with its own dedicated Pre that cannot be used by other carts...
Did you have any problems with the height f the PickUp regarding the VTA and damping container?
have a nice spin anyway
bernie
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Hi Doak.
Since my Soundsmith SG-200 is out for revision, I'm thinking about giving the DECCAs a try. Could you please explain if you are using the POD-System and if the clay is absolutely necessary or could it be replaced by something more elegant? Where did you get the plastic-screws and what carbon-mat did you use under the headshell? Phono-Pre? I'm asking because the Soundsmith comes with its own dedicated Pre that cannot be used by other carts...
Did you have any problems with the height f the PickUp regarding the VTA and damping container?
have a nice spin anyway
bernie
Hi Bernie,
I put the clay on while using the using the Decca Super Gold on a NAS Spacedeck/Spacearm. The extra damping did improve things there. I just left it on when I moved the cartridge to the WTA where I doubt that is doing much to improve things - possibly the opposite! However I'm liking what I'm hearing so haven't been in a hurry to remove the clay. At some point I should "do the experiment" and hear the SG naked the "new" table.
The plastic screws come with the Decca. The graphite "sliver" is something acquired long ago. My phono preamp is a substantially modified EAR 834P. I have a feeling that a Decca Pod would not be a good combo with the WTA arm since is so well damped already it may just lose some of the wonderful "liveliness" for which the London Decca cartridges are renowned.
BTW: I had NO problems properly mounting the LDSG on the WTA.
Enjoy!
Doak
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Thnx a lot for the insights. Sounds much easier and hassle free to me now...just a plain DECCA Super Gold and here we go!
Funny: i have a spare EAR 834P MM lying around. Your mods?
cu
bernie
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Thnx a lot for the insights. Sounds much easier and hassle free to me now...just a plain DECCA Super Gold and here we go!
Funny: i have a spare EAR 834P MM lying around. Your mods?
cu
bernie
Lots of mods Bernie. I did a bunch of stuff according to the "guide" that Thorsen Loesch posted on forums. I also sent it to Mitch Singerman after I broke it when modding. He undid/redid some things that I did. He also installed Hovland Musicaps which I used for a couple of years before changing them out to Mundorf Silver/Oil -- BIG improvement IMO. I LOVE these Mundorfs and use them throughout the system.
The tube set makes a world of difference/improvement in this circuit. I'm now using a pair of GE 5751 black plate/triple mica in the gain stages and a Telefunken smooth-plate as the cathode follower.
Works for me!
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Hi Doak.
Yes. I´ll start with the tube rolling tonight (i have to look whats lying around) and some mundorfs are waiting to be soldered in...
cheers
bernie