AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Von Schweikert Audio Owners => Topic started by: leif8660 on 6 Feb 2016, 09:43 pm

Title: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 6 Feb 2016, 09:43 pm
We now have the full loom of Ultra cables in our sound room.  We shared these pics on the VSA Facebook page but I thought I would post here as well.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136702)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136703)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136704)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136705)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136706)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136707)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136708)
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 7 Feb 2016, 02:39 am
Very Nice, congratulations! SO do the Ultra PC compare to the Signature PC???????????????
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: violetmachan on 7 Feb 2016, 02:16 pm
congrats
price list for power cords?.....any one compared signature and ultras powercords performance
pm lief...if possible
Sam
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: es347 on 7 Feb 2016, 02:35 pm
We now have the full loom of Ultra cables in our sound room.  We shared these pics on the VSA Facebook page but I thought I would post here as well.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136702)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136703)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136704)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136705)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136706)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136707)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136708)

..those 55s would sound much better if you installed a power cord  :lol:...now...pls cease and desist posting this erotica  8)
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 7 Feb 2016, 07:55 pm
congrats
price list for power cords?.....any one compared signature and ultras powercords performance
pm lief...if possible
Sam

We are the only ones who have the Ultra PC's at this moment.  They will be at Axpona where after show hours we will be showing the differences in the cables.  It's going to be fun.

As I have said in some other post...

I believe the Signature PC's are just as good if not better than the most expensive PC's.  With that being said,  the Ultra PC's were a speechless improvement over the Signatures.  Let me share with you that the engineer for MasterBuilt had Signature PC's in his system.  Once he put the Ultra in for testing before he sent it to me, he had to put the Signatures back into his system.  As good as the Signatures are, he is replacing them with Ultra's now knowing what is possible.  As I said, once you go Ultra you can't go back. 
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: ACHiPo on 7 Feb 2016, 08:16 pm
I like how the armed guards are out of frame--that's got to be over $100k in wire?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: JerryM on 7 Feb 2016, 08:25 pm
I like how the armed guards are out of frame--that's got to be over $100k in wire?

That's the same thing I thought!  :lol:

That's not a sweater vest he's wearing. It's bullet-proof.  :thumb:
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: kernelbob on 8 Feb 2016, 12:20 am
I started building a full loom system of MasterBuilt Signature interconnects and power cords back in 2011.  Over these last five years I've been consistently impressed with their musicality, speed, power, wide frequency response, etc.  I've been very happy with the system and continue to recommend the MB Signature series to anyone looking to build a highly revealing system with uncanny low level resolution.

That being said, now that I have a full loom of Masterbuilt Ultra interconnects and speaker cables, they reveal an "undiscovered land" of low level resolution retrieval, micro dynamics, bass slam, three dimensional realism, and most especially an even better sense of solidity of instruments and voices.  All this while getting out of the way of the music and letting my VR100XS system generate an even more realistic holographic image.

Of all the Masterbuilt Signature components, I was always most certain that the power cords had reached the pinnacle of technology.  It's been very entertaining to demonstrate to visitors what happens when a Signature power cord is replaced with other "high end" power cords.  Now, hearing from Leif what the new Ultra power cords bring to the table is disconcerting, knowing first hand how important the MB Signature power cords have been to my system's performance.  As Leif said, "one you go Ultra, you can't go back".

Unfortunately, repeating the mantra "must not think about the Ultra power cords", isn't working too well for me.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 8 Feb 2016, 06:57 pm
That's the same thing I thought!  :lol:

That's not a sweater vest he's wearing. It's bullet-proof.  :thumb:
That's hilarious...

Now that I look at the picture of Damon, it does kind of looks like a bullet proof vest. lol
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: rajacat on 8 Feb 2016, 07:17 pm
How much does a full loom cost?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Nick B on 8 Feb 2016, 08:50 pm
How much does a full loom cost?


+1
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 8 Feb 2016, 10:49 pm
Hi All,

I think the Ultra Line as well as MasterBuilt products in general needs to be put into perspective given all the prejudices about cable in our industry; both deserving and undeserving.

From what I can tell, the best High-End Audio cable manufacturers fall into one of two categories.  They are either “hobby” engineers or great marketers. 

The Hobby Engineers have gone as far as they have with the relatively limited resources available to develop their products and their successes reflect that.  Some even suffer from the stubborn and short sighted “not designed here” prejudices that ultimately impact the performance of their products.

Then there are the great cable marketers that are High-End Audio’s equivalent of Bose.  They sell products made overseas and have incredible markup to support their advertising expenses and the industry standard discounts they themselves have created. 

Most of the negative perspectives towards cables come from the latter group while we struggle to identify and buy cable from the former group.

MasterBuilt doesn’t fit into either of these two categories.  This product is the pinnacle of U.S. Aerospace signal transmission technology created by the world leading engineers in this industry using the resources and knowledge available to them.  This cable is manufactured using proprietary technology from rare and precious alloys only produced by this industry here in the U.S.

When these engineers saw the “technological” claims being made by high-end audio cable companies, they saw an incredible opportunity to develop products that would simply outclass the competition.  For example, they were horrified to see companies selling large gauge single run silver plated copper given the inherent flaws in signal transmission speeds of the two disparate materials and it’s resulting unnatural sound.  And that’s just one example that doesn’t reflect the broad spectrum of engineering concerns the developers should be addressing in signal interactions, arcing, signal degradation, impedance, etc.

The signal purity is the highest priority.

Please understand…
It is NOT in MasterBuilts best interest to educate the competition, so I’m not going to go into great detail. 

So MasterBuilt was born and they steadily developed and released four unique audio cables lines.  The MSRPS were factored from materials budgets (just like all products) seeking to satisfy specific market segments.  Here are the four lines of MasterBuilt cables and the systems they should be paired with.

MasterBuilt Purple Line
The MasterBuilt Purple Line is our highest value line and is manufactured in the US by leaders in the Aerospace Industry utilizing laboratory grown single crystal copper.    MasterBuilt Purple Line rates in the top 10% of all high-end audio cables and is recommended for use in systems costing upwards of $25,000.

MasterBuilt Reference Line (Previously known as “Standard”)
MasterBuilt Reference Line is just that, audio reference quality sound reproduction.  Manufactured in the US by leaders in the Aerospace Industry, it utilizes laboratory grown single crystal copper.  This line rates in the top 5% off all high-end audio cables and is recommended for systems costing upwards of $50,000.

MasterBuilt Signature Line
MasterBuilt Signature Line is above reference grade cables.  It’s manufactured in the US by leaders in the Aerospace Industry utilizing laboratory grown single crystal copper.  This line rates in the top 2-3% off all high-end audio cables and is recommended for any high-end system regardless of price.

MasterBuilt Ultra Line
Simply put, MasterBuilt Ultra Line is the best of the best and deservedly holds its spot in the top 1% of all high-end audio cables.  Manufactured by leaders in the Aerospace Industry utilizing rare and precious alloys only produced here in the US.  The MasterBuilt Ultra Line belongs in the world’s finest audio systems. 

As you can see, Ultra is exactly that and we’re fortunate to have a full loom system to display at shows.  Budget wise, the VR-55s could be paired with the Signature Line.  But the truth is that Ultra can make a $200 pair of bookshelf speakers from Best Buy sound amazingly better.  I know because we’ve tried it.  So when we go to shows, we take the best and it demonstrates what the speakers are capable of. 

But the Ultra are not for everyone based strictly on their cost.  In fact, it’s a huge investment for us to have a full loom for our trade shows.  That said, every product in the MasterBuilt Ultra Line is less expensive meter for meter than the Nordost Odin Line of cables.  And they are so much better. 

But don’t take out word for it, come to AXPONA and hear it for yourself?  And soon local dealers like Blue Smoke Entertainment Systems will have them in their demo systems as we establish a MasterBuilt dealer network.  And our plan is to have reviews come out this year as well so the critiques can give their feedback.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Nick B on 8 Feb 2016, 11:34 pm
Thanks for your response. Im just curious like rajacat whether you're at the Skogrand level or something in between. Pricing doesn't remain a mystery very long and I don't think audiophiles care much one way or the other. Good luck with the product line.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: DARTH AUDIO on 9 Feb 2016, 12:33 am
Leif, can't wait to hear the music in the VSA room at Axpona!! Next in the audio budget are the Masterbuilt Ultra cables!!

See ya @ Axpona,

Gary
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 9 Feb 2016, 01:57 am
You are showing the VR55s at Axpona with VAC, correct?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: JackD201 on 9 Feb 2016, 02:47 am
That's hilarious...

Now that I look at the picture of Damon, it does kind of looks like a bullet proof vest. lol

Luke Skywalker needs no friggin' bullet proof vest  :lol:
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 9 Feb 2016, 03:30 am
You are showing the VR55s at Axpona with VAC, correct?
Yes..

We will be showing with Vacs new amp and pre along with the VR-55 Aktives.  Also we wiil be using the MSB Diamond DAC.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 9 Feb 2016, 03:31 am
 :whip:
Luke Skywalker needs no friggin' bullet proof vest  :lol:
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: BigSwede on 9 Feb 2016, 01:52 pm
Please understand…
It is NOT in MasterBuilts best interest to educate the competition, so I’m not going to go into great detail. 
While I get that... in the end we are left with "trust us, these are really really good. Now give us thousands of dollars for our very special hunks of wire." Which is pretty much the sales pitch of all of the other cable companies out there too.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: JackD201 on 9 Feb 2016, 02:06 pm
While I get that... in the end we are left with "trust us, these are really really good. Now give us thousands of dollars for our very special hunks of wire." Which is pretty much the sales pitch of all of the other cable companies out there too.

That's precisely why as a distributor I don't talk. I lend. ;)
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 9 Feb 2016, 02:42 pm
What I understand is that VSA sells all their products with a 45 day satisfaction guarantee - am I correct? That said, so far in the more than decade of dealings with VSA through two speaker purchases and one upgrade, and Masterbuilt and then Ultra IC, they have always understated the benefits of a given purchase compared to what I heard once I pulled the trigger. I can not say the same with many other companies where improvements were real but slight.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: BigSwede on 9 Feb 2016, 03:24 pm
That's precisely why as a distributor I don't talk. I lend. ;)
For sure. But I remain hopeful that someday we will KNOW what cables are best, and why "break in" occurs, and how "system synergy" works, based on measurable and verifiable SCIENCE.

Which, granted, would take the fun out of this hobby for some...but not me.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 9 Feb 2016, 05:47 pm
While I get that... in the end we are left with "trust us, these are really really good. Now give us thousands of dollars for our very special hunks of wire." Which is pretty much the sales pitch of all of the other cable companies out there too.
I understand your frustration.  But I want to be very clear on what I said in my post.

I never said trust us or take our word for it.  What I said was to hear for yourself at the upcoming Axpona Show.  Then these cables will be under review so you can read what the reviewers will have to say. I also said that we are setting up a dealer network so people will have a chance to have a listen there.

We will also run a full loom of Ultra at the next RMAF.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: BigSwede on 9 Feb 2016, 07:04 pm
To be sure, were I in the market for cables that cost nearly as much as my house, I would make the effort to travel to show or a dealer and audition them. 

But that wasn't really my point - it is the science of the cables I am interested in. I want to know why they are better. I am so sick of all the guesswork and voodoo of the audiophile cable industry.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: htradtk on 9 Feb 2016, 11:53 pm
All,

I've been reading the comments on this post and it's all about what you want and how much you want to spend! I like to listen to music very much!! When I listen, I love hearing the most detail that a cable can bring. When I got my VR-5 Anniversaries back in 2008, I got a 8' pair of Analysis Plus cables for them. Got to omit, they sounded pretty good! Then in 2012, I got a 8' pair of the Signature Masterbuilds to go with my recently upgraded MKII's. It was like night and day! The Masterbuilds produced so much more detail in everything that I listened too! From a strum of a guitar to a full orchestra, it is like they are right there with you!
As for VSA, they are the most customer oriented company that I ever have dealt with! They will work with you on a personal level and give you an outstanding product! They are my speaker company for life! Hopefully I can upgrade to the VR-55 someday!

Happy listening,
Henry
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 10 Feb 2016, 02:24 am
Well said Henry!
Folks are correct that all that is needed to enjoy music is an old transistor radio and an openness to the lyrics and beat. Yet so much more is offered with our carefully assembled systems. For me VSA products took me to place (with careful selection of other components and well-recorded material) where my system just sounds right and is fully satisfying, even immediately after returning from a live classical concert. Part of the "right" is that the excitement, beauty, nuance, and aliveness are present which allows connection to the composers, players and most subtle intricate structure of the music. To be in the trance of great music in all its splendor is such a privilege!

Thank God that the road to the always improving pinnacle provides soul-healing blessings long before it gets expensive. That road now extends (according to the latest Editors Choice Awards in TAS) to what for most of us is crazy territory with 600K speakers, 180K amps and 32k speaker cables. I am happy for everyone (both designers and customers) who go further up the road than I will ever go because they advance the state of the art and if one is patient, sprinkle the used market with great bargains five years down the road . There are cynical people selling stuff built with cheap parts and hype, but there are also inspired and passionate designers such as Albert, backed by a team devoted to music and to their customer's ever deeper relationship with music. I think they deserve applause and a financial rewarding living.

So celebrate the Purple, Reference, and Master Built lines (all great values compared to the competition) and bring on the Ultra so we have something to buy that would really give us pleasure when we win the lottery!
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: BigSwede on 10 Feb 2016, 02:55 am
Maybe I am coming off as critical of VSA, but that wasn't my intent. I am frustrated with the whole cable industry, and have hopes that the scientists at Masterbuilt can clear away some of the fog that surrounds it.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 10 Feb 2016, 03:13 am
BigSwede - I think that you have been respectful and on point. In general within the cable industry there has been gouging and smoke from some of the biggest players. I have also talked to many dedicated small designers who say that they encounter many customers who feel that unless the price is high, they will not even listen to the small shop efforts to determine for themselves whether the cable is magical or muggle.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 10 Feb 2016, 06:15 am
Maybe I am coming off as critical of VSA, but that wasn't my intent. I am frustrated with the whole cable industry, and have hopes that the scientists at Masterbuilt can clear away some of the fog that surrounds it.
I will post a tech paper on the MasterBuilt cables and the science behind it tomorrow.  I'm going to leave the construction techniques out of this post.  As I said, we do not want to educate other manufacturers.  I hope you understand this.  I wouldn't exactly want to show another speaker manufacture our design approach or architecture of our circuit designs.

Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: choffman on 10 Feb 2016, 10:56 pm
This seems like an appropriate place for me to share an interesting, revealing and very positive experience I had with my system yesterday.  It started with a conversation I had with Leif  when I contacted him about my interest in trying some of the Master Built power cords.  I already have the Master Built Reference (formerly "Standard") interconnects and speaker cables.  I have felt for quite awhile that my power situation was not up to the rest of my system.  After Leif and I talked for awhile I mentioned that I was running my phono stage and preamp through a high end power conditioner and my amps through a passive power strip that while very well built, is 15 years old and not anything fancy.  I explained to Leif that my amps didn't like the power conditioner at all but that I thought the conditioner was good for my front end and preamp.  Leif let me know that he had regularly had bad experiences with active power filtration and by the end of the conversation we both concluded that before I bought anything new, I should try taking my fancy power conditioner out of the loop altogether to see what happened.

I started last night by listening to things as is for a good 20-30 minutes.  I then took my phono stage off the conditioner and plugged it into the power strip.  My impression was that it was not an improvement and to some extent the sound was a bit thin compared to when I ran it through the conditioner.  I went back and forth enough times to feel comfortable in my conclusion.  I then put the phono stage back in the conditioner and tried the same experiment with my preamp.  The power strip was an immediate and substantial improvement over the power conditioner for my preamp.  Much more extended top end (not bright or harsh though), more air, better dynamics.  I went through the process a few times and the outcome was undeniable - my high end conditioner got its ass kicked by an older $900 passive power strip.  What was also odd is that when I put both the phono stage and the preamp on the passive strip at the same time, I really didn't experience the drop off for the phono stage that I had heard at first.  I suspect that was in part due to the preamp being so much better that I didn't notice any small loss of performance in the phono stage through the strip.  Or alternatively, maybe having the preamp and phono stage on the same circuit worked better.  I have no idea.  My final move was to plug the amps straight into the wall and skip the strip.  This seemed to improve things more but I was tired by then and can't say that with any authority.

Long story short, this stuff is a damn conundrum.  My last preamp and phono stage liked the power conditioner as opposed to the power strip so I never bothered to try the new stuff without the power conditioner.  Why components react the way they do to different cords and other pieces in the power chain in the ways they do is beyond me and apparently a lot of other people as well.  It's a hard world to navigate when you get into tweaks and PCs etc.  Too many variables.  Experience may vary.  I would love some science to rely on but at the end of the day, in my ears I trust.

I'm embarrassed that I fell into the trap of assuming the power conditioner was good for my system without thorough A/B testing with all of my components.  That said, I am really appreciative of Leif throwing the idea out there before trying to sell me something.  I still plan on trying the Master Built PCs (no, it won't be the Ultras) and will report back on my experience.

Here's my system for context purposes:
Undedicated electrical circuits (on my list to fix when I redo the room)
Oyaide R1 outlets w/ WPZ wall plates (yes the plates seem like total BS but they do work in my experience)
Ensemble MegaPower Point power strip
Ensemble MegaPowerFlux power cords
Lyra Atlas Cart
Durand Talea Tonearm
Galibier Stelvio Turntable
Allnic H-3000 phono stage
SMC VRE-1C preamp
Berning Quadrature Z monoblocks
Master Built Reference interconnects and biwire speaker cable
VSA VR-5 Anniversary Speakers (MK 1.5 - I have the AAC Midrange drivers but not the upgraded wiring and cabinet damping)

Chris Hoffman
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: undertow on 10 Feb 2016, 11:18 pm
choffman,

Very interesting because these days the normal thinking in the audio world - straight to wall is best period, and power conditioning will limit, and even compress sound with most components.

This has been in fact my results overall with most power products period claiming parallel, or passive, or active filtering regardless.

Most of the time straight to wall proved best.

ACCEPT - when I accidentally found, and acquired a fairly expensive power strip which was retailed at 1000.00 a couple years ago for a pretty cheap price that was intended for a basic power setup in my NON-high end system.

Well I decided to try it in my High end setup, and it beat the pants off a Walker Audio, and even direct to wall! First time I heard conditioning, and surge protection at its best.

Its an IsoTek EVO 3 Sirius power strip which claims to simply have a quality filter with upper echelon teflon copper star wiring basically. Well it works. I have had many power bars, but this one will put huge regenerators, power conditioners etc... to shame. I don't even think they make them anymore.

For that price originally its very arguable that they went a little to skimpy on the outlets themselves in quality, no super grip furutechs, or even decent hubbles in here, but they work well. Interestingly I also noted they designed these 6 outlets right compared to other Richard Gray and higher products I have had in the past because the spacing is much better for larger wall warts etc... that we sometimes can't avoid. They all fit on it very easily if necessary to use unlike all the duplex based units on the market.

Only slight downfall to a quality device like this is even though it carries 6 outlets, its only rated at 10 amps, which it does have a FUSE in it, and I upgraded that to a Synergistic RED fuse, and I actually paid nearly as much for the damn fuse as what I stole this whole unit at originally! But it was worth it.

I don't run big amps or anything thru most power distribution devices, so in the case of something like the IsoTek bar 10 amps was actually over double what the rest of my system pulls in total anyway.

I still don't advocate power conditioning in general, but this is one of the very few cases a device like this actually shows all the advantages to not only conditioning, but getting the protection on the circuit.

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/isotek-evo-3-sirius/ (http://www.tonepublications.com/review/isotek-evo-3-sirius/)

Only other one I can recommend is simply the "Bybee AC bullet" which is a decent upgrade for many systems. Its not conditioning per say, but from most of the uses I have experienced it has some positive merit on most systems AC lines.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/bybee_bullet.html (http://www.partsconnexion.com/bybee_bullet.html)

I have owned several units from PS audio, Balanced audio, Blue Circle Audio, Walker Audio, Furutech, Furman, ATI, Richard Gray, Shunyata, and IsoTek. Never run amps thru anything in my opinion unless it's a single dedicated filter possibly.

 
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Early B. on 10 Feb 2016, 11:51 pm
Undertow --

I've had the exact opposite experience with power conditioners. In fact, I have three different devices cleaning and protecting the power before my components are plugged in. I don't know why, but it works. But the main issue with plugging components directly into the wall is no surge protection. There's no way I'm gonna jeopardize $10K worth of equipment without a high degree of surge protection. 
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: htradtk on 11 Feb 2016, 12:27 am
Thanks Joe for the compliment.

You to Joe, very well said. Again, I'm one that's about quality, heck, I've got a great system right now. But there always something that comes out that we all drool over! This is life I guess! This is a fun hobby! One thing, there's no way I could afford a 600k speaker!! If you can, you must be able to afford to build a room to house them!! They are not built for the average listening room. Lief, well said, all products should be confidential to the manufacture on how they are built!

Will I upgrade? Probably so. My power cord is my weakest link right now. Just have a $150 Analysis Plus cord from my wall. My other PC's are from my components that I brought.

Henry
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: undertow on 11 Feb 2016, 01:15 am
Undertow --

I've had the exact opposite experience with power conditioners. In fact, I have three different devices cleaning and protecting the power before my components are plugged in. I don't know why, but it works. But the main issue with plugging components directly into the wall is no surge protection. There's no way I'm gonna jeopardize $10K worth of equipment without a high degree of surge protection.

Can't disagree on any level. Which is why I went thru many years attempting every formula on the planet hoping to find something worthy of pure sound with AC protection... But I was saying in general it is not necessarily a guarantee with the "AC power component of the week" to experience the desired results is all.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Triode Pete on 11 Feb 2016, 01:31 am
Can't disagree on any level. Which is why I went thru many years attempting every formula on the planet hoping to find something worthy of pure sound with AC protection... But I was saying in general it is not necessarily a guarantee with the "AC power component of the week" to experience the desired results is all.

Noticed that you didn't mention ever trying a P.I. Audio UberBUSS Power Conditioner... I had the exact same experience as you regarding power conditioners until I tried an UberBUSS... It is not power limiting & does not limit dynamics... It actually improves dynamics on all levels, both micro & macro by getting the noise out and by the use of it's power factor correction circuitry. I actually noticed an increase in "gain" on my transformer-based tube components. Just saying...

My $0.02,
Pete
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: undertow on 11 Feb 2016, 01:40 am
Noticed that you didn't mention ever trying a P.I. Audio UberBUSS Power Conditioner... I had the exact same experience as you regarding power conditioners until I tried an UberBUSS... It is not power limiting & does not limit dynamics... It actually improves dynamics on all levels, both micro & macro by getting the noise out and by the use of it's power factor correction circuitry. I actually noticed an increase in "gain" on my transformer-based tube components. Just saying...

My $0.02,
Pete

Yes you are absolutely correct. And I have read the merits on the device right here on audiocircle. I also own your speaker cables if that gives any credibility:-)
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: SundayNiagara on 12 Feb 2016, 02:15 pm
And still no price list?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: JackD201 on 13 Feb 2016, 04:51 am
And still no price list?

I've got my copy of the draft but it is not finalized yet.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 13 Feb 2016, 02:06 pm
Heads up - Leif started a new thread on the technical aspects of the Masterbuilt line, entitled The Science Behind Masterbuilt cables
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 13 Feb 2016, 03:42 pm
As we all wait with baited breath for the price list, I want to comment some on affordability.

For me, affordability is not just about price. I very much enjoy having my system in my family's great room. Just yesterday music played with my 1 year old granddaughter in the room, as snow was gently falling outside. She immediately beamed and started dancing to the music. My wife joined us and we all had a good time, dancing hugging and smiling. We proceeded through Peter Paul and Mary's children's songs, through the Beach Boys, and then into gentle jazz as we fed her a before-bed bottle.  Though the music was at low volume, each note's beauty shown through and the music added greatly to my enjoyment of the evening. The point - I do not have or want a dedicated sound cave. And within the esthetics of a family space and family peace, bigger super amps, super sized speakers etc are out of the question or unaffordable in terms of the goals of the room, yet I want the best sound possible.

After hearing how impressed Lief was with the Ultra, I wanted a second opinion and talked to Albert. I framed the question the way I did because I knew Albert really loved what pressure equalization by adding two subs to the back of the room does for not only the bass, but the sense of being in the venue and increased clarity in the mids and highs. "Albert, should I upgrade my Signature loom to Ultra, or get two 15in ShockWave XS subs for my large 22X38 foot room - which strategy will give me the most satisfaction?

We have a very interesting discussion about the benefits of each with Albert feeling some of the benefits were overlapping and some different for each strategy.  Once I identified that I was extremely happy with current sound and loved the bass delivered by the 55s already, and that what I loved most was being able to hear the most subtle detail, naturally presented, it was clear that at least for me Ultra was the way to go.  In my situation, Ultra is very affordable, where adding two large subs is not.

Side note: we may at some point look at hiding those subs within the walls etc. :wink:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55796)


Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 13 Feb 2016, 05:06 pm
Damon and I took a little rest from our normal day to day routine to listen to some music yesterday in our remodeled sound room.  We started with the same tracks neither one of us can stand anymore simply because we both know them so well.  We listened to the music with the Signature power cord on the Constellation Centaur amplifier and the sound was just fantastic.  After about 15 minutes, we switcher to the new Ultra pc.  Let the disbelief begin.

 I was cracking up because Damon couldn't let the song play all the way through.  He kept skipping back to section of the song to hear over and over again and just couldn't believe what the Ultra PC was delivering.  Reverbs became so much larger and deeper not to mention we could actually here a delay echo on here voice which neither one of us have ever heard before.  Goose bumps ran up and down my arms as we listen to what was like an entirely new song heard for the very first time. The sound stage grew even larger and the sense of that more information than ever has become audible.  Super transparency throughout the frequency response without losing any of it's musicality.  This is just with 1 Ultra PC on the power amp, all the other PC cables in the system are our Reference and Signature lines.  I'm scared to see what is going to happen when we run 3 Ultra PC's lol
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: es347 on 13 Feb 2016, 11:04 pm
I've found that the PC on the source...not if it's a TT obviously...has the greatest impact.  What was your source, a CD player or music server?  Did you try the Ultra PC on the source?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 14 Feb 2016, 06:16 am
I've found that the PC on the source...not if it's a TT obviously...has the greatest impact.  What was your source, a CD player or music server?  Did you try the Ultra PC on the source?
We tried the Ultra PC on the amp.  Haven't tried it on the source yet.  It may very with equipment but the amps are the heavy draw.  I still have Signatures on the source.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 14 Feb 2016, 08:49 am
Lief - Are you running the amp direct and the rest of the equipment through a power conditioner such as the Quintet? If so in your industrial setting the power is likely dirty and the Ultra direct connect to amp might give the best results because of the conditioning qualities of Masterbuilt, compared to placing in on source, DAC or preamp if they are running through a conditioner. Please experiment for us with your one Ultra PC in all positions with and without power conditioner. It is important because many of us might want to start with one Ultra instead of replacing all power cords, due to cost. And you get to listen to music as part of your job, how cool is that?  :D
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 14 Feb 2016, 05:17 pm
Lief - Are you running the amp direct and the rest of the equipment through a power conditioner such as the Quintet? If so in your industrial setting the power is likely dirty and the Ultra direct connect to amp might give the best results because of the conditioning qualities of Masterbuilt, compared to placing in on source, DAC or preamp if they are running through a conditioner. Please experiment for us with your one Ultra PC in all positions with and without power conditioner. It is important because many of us might want to start with one Ultra instead of replacing all power cords, due to cost. And you get to listen to music as part of your job, how cool is that?  :D
Hey gammajo,

I'm actually running the amp off the Quintet.  I will experiment of course but the engineers feel that the amp is the the best place.  But I will swap and compare the results.  With that being said, every time we have added Ultra to the system(when we started with the first interconnects) I couldn't imagine how the sound could get any better.  But it does.  After what Damon and I were hearing just from one Ultra PC on the amp,  I can't even imagine what multiple Ultra PC's is going to do.  I will know shortly though:) And yes, this job does have it's moments....
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 14 Feb 2016, 06:56 pm
That is good to know that even with running off a conditioner, the Ultra does its thing strongly
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: who?me? on 6 May 2018, 05:34 pm
So where does one buy Masterbuilt cables?
I did several searches online, there seem to be no store fronts for them, only
“Call this phone number for sellers”, eg via Vonschweikert website.

Can I just get a price list?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: oem-wheels on 6 May 2018, 08:30 pm
they never say the price... its a crazy crazy price.. if you don't have $100,000 speakers then forget about these..
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: jbr on 6 May 2018, 08:43 pm
Try Masterbuilt Audio's website at masterbuiltaudio.com. It has complete information on the different types and grades of cables they manufacture, as well as pricing.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: JerryM on 6 May 2018, 08:55 pm
Try Masterbuilt Audio's website at masterbuiltaudio.com. It has complete information on the different types and grades of cables they manufacture, as well as pricing.

Yep, that works. https://www.masterbuiltaudio.com/ (https://www.masterbuiltaudio.com/)

Yowwy :o
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Tubeburner on 20 May 2018, 11:53 pm
Quote
This product is the pinnacle of U.S. Aerospace signal transmission technology created by the world leading engineers in this industry using the resources and knowledge available to them.  This cable is manufactured using proprietary technology from rare and precious alloys only produced by this industry here in the U.S.

Since I work in the industry, I find this statement quite interesting. Proprietary technology would be owned by the industry, for example NASA or another, so no engineer could use this technology outside of the company without being prosecuted. They may know what materials are used and who the manufacturer are, so they may be able to buy the cable outside of the company if they can be released, but if they are making new cable using proprietary technology as stated, I wouldn't want to be them. IMO.

Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 21 May 2018, 08:12 am
In your explanatory blurb for the Ultra digital interconnects, you say " In the world’s finest systems, even the smallest amount of signal degradation will result in inferior performance and the digital signal from your source is highly critical.  Any loss in this signal results in over sampling and excessive error correction which drastically degrades the overall performance resulting in a "digital" sound." Could you explain this? How does signal loss result in oversampling?
https://www.masterbuiltaudio.com/ultra-line-audio-cables

Also, I have to say I find it disturbing to see cheap looking shrink wrap used in the termination of $17,000 1.5 metre cables, but maybe I'm out of touch with the high end cable world.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Letitroll98 on 21 May 2018, 03:06 pm
I agree Russell, I completely understand custom alloy metals, dielectric, and connectors cost money.  And expensive R&D might be involved.  But there is simply no way on God's green earth that any cable, no matter what the construction, could possibly justify a $17k retail.  This is the kind of thing that fosters the claims of snake oil and obscures the work of honest manufacturers producing high quality products at reasonable prices.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 14 Jun 2018, 11:09 pm
Well they arrived yesterday afternoon late.  What an exciting surprise to finally receive the box after an almost an 11 week wait! 

My order was placed through Eigen Audio/Joe Hakim here in the extended S.F. Bay Area for a pair of Reference "Bi-Wire" Speaker cables 2.5 Meter long.  Joe strikes me to be very knowledgeable person who has a deep passion for high-end audio.
He is a very nice and comfortable person to deal with.  I am pleased that I was able to do business with Joe, especially as he is the MasterBuilt dealer for my area.

It would seem that MasterBuilt might-be having some supply issues due in part because of the growing demand which Damon mentioned that they were addressing.  Hence the extended delivery time frame for which I spoke about. I understand that AVS wants to lower that down to a much more manageable time frame in the not to distant future.  A big part of the timeframe issue is that each cable is made to order here in the USA and when you include all the different wire end combinations it can cause times to stretch out.

I was told by Leif at AVS that they wanted to hook the cables up to their cable 'cooker' and run them over the weekend so they would be broken-in at least form AVS's stand point before I received them. Which no doubt added to the longer shipping time.

So lets cut to the chase! 

Was it worth the money I spent for the speaker cables? 
First my wife thinks I am crazy but that is another story for another time! 
Deep down, I know she still love me even with my current Audio peccadillos.
 
Anyway I could not wait to hook them up and get started in the final 'break-in' procedure.  After opening the box, (it felt just like Christmas and my birthday all rolled into one) and what with my somewhat understanding wife handing me an adult beverage, it was off to the races......

I unhooked my current wires and then addressed the MB's with an electronic cleaner and conditioner designed for use in the Audio arena.
My ends were all Banana Plugs. 
I also did the same procedure to the amp and speaker terminals as well.

The very first thing I noticed 'cold' just out of the box was that the bass was so much better.  It was richer, fuller, went deeper and there was so much more presence to the bottom end without ever being over blown..... Wow!! 
But the nice thing is that it is not the bloomy, sloppy, tubby kind of bass so many speakers put out. 
Just bass that was not there before with the other speaker wires. 

By contrast, the mid-range took on a much bigger 3 dimensional picture with a much larger center channel image.  I find overall its like that the wires were not there and that I am only listing to the Amp direct without any distortion that other cables produce, its amazing!

Everything seemed to be larger and spaced out between and outside of the speakers. The instruments and the voices had their own space and weren’t blurred into the background. And the big difference is all the inner detail and transparency they give to the sound.  Very tube-like is so many ways.

All I can say is that 'one' just needs to experience this for themselves, to fully grasp what these cables are capable of producing. 
And remember what I am listening to is my first impressions, 'cold' right out of the box.
All it can do is go up from here!

Let me digress for a moment. 
Joe was kind enough to lend me a Reference bi-wire pair from his stock so I could take some personal time to fully listen/evaluate them in my home system.  This I know you will agree is the "acid-bath" test. 
I had them in my system for a little over 2 weeks and even in that time did not want to give them back!!! 

So the next best thing for me not to have withdraw, was to order a pair and go forward from there.

Back to the sound:  At the moment the part that still needs to fully cure is the top end.  As those who have already gone through what I am now going through, will say the same thing.  The top end will start to settle down as I continue to break them in.  By contrast, Joe's pair sounded wonderful from top to bottom with only a couple of days to settle in to my system and relax.  It is the inherent nature of cables and the electron energy coursing through them for them to come in to full compliance.

So after listening to them for a couple of hours I turned down the volume and let the Aurender play all night and it continues to play right now as I type this article.  This morning I increased the volume and even from last night, I have noticed an improvement with the top end.  The overall sound is beginning to relax.

I will follow up as things progress, but I am very pleased with the purchase and kudos to Joe and Eigen Audio for pointing me in the right direction.  You are the best Joe!

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181406)

Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Mountainjoe on 15 Jun 2018, 11:23 pm
Hi Ian (Sandrock);

Thanks for the kind words and I am glad you are happy with your purchase! I know it was a long wait, especially after having already experienced the Reference speaker cables in your system and then having to go back to your old cables  :duh:

Please keep us updated as they continue to break in - as you say, it will only keep getting better from here  :thumb:

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 18 Jun 2018, 01:19 am
I am at the end of day 4 with 24 hour a day continuous playing with the Aurender/system.

So what has changed since last Wednesday when I got my MasterBuilt bi-wire speaker cables installed in my system and up and running?
As I previously mentioned, the bass was very good, the mid range was also good but the top end needed to settle down a bit!
Well at this moment the bass is still doing its job and remains strong and solid.
The mids are now even clearer and more defined.
The sound stage is more 'definitively' defined.
I can now hear sounds across the stage that I did not hear before. All I can say is that its "incredible"!

In a word its 'clarity!'

Each instrument is now much more defined and positioned along the horizontal stage. 
The top end is settling down in such a nice and very acceptable way. 
I am now waiting for the final phase when the top end literally float-off into space in a mystical way. 

I am continuing to break them in running 24/7.
 
Please don't get me wrong! 
I very much love the way the MasterBuilt speaker cables sound even right now. 
I am excited and looking forward to the cables being completely broken-in so I can hear the the finished product.   
Even now they sound 'fantastic' and much better then my previous cables by a big jump!

I listened critically to them last night and was amazed at how improved they sound, even over cold out of the box. 
Its like the amp is physically attached to the speaker and there is no speaker wire in the chain to defuse or color the sound in any way. 

I can now listen higher up on the volume scale and get much more into the music without any ear fatigue setting in.  I have just started to get a bit of ringing in my left ear and I found that even with my previous cables I found that the ringing the next morning had increased in intensity. 

However with the MasterBuilt cables there is no increased ear ringing or fatigue the next morning. 
The cables are that clean and devoid of distortion, that it is now a real joy to hear my music collection as much as I like without suffering the after effects to the ears.

So if you have any 'ringing' in your ears then these cables are definitely for you! 
Why suffer when you do not have too.

I am looking forward to hearing from others who have any of the MasterBuilt line and can share their thoughts and findings on their MB cables......

I will follow up next Wednesday with how things are progressing......

Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 18 Jun 2018, 02:28 am
Sandrock
Congratulation on your new purchase. I had the Reference biwire and now the Ultra. Both took me to places of cable satisfaction I had not imagined cable could. They are likley to be rewarding from here on and believe it or not took another jump in wow at about one year into use. What were you using before?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: kernelbob on 18 Jun 2018, 08:42 pm
Hi Sandrock,

I purchased the MB Ultra interconnects and speaker cable a while ago.  I finally got five MB Ultra power cords a few months ago.  That's one for each of my biamping amplifiers and one for my Lampizator Golden Gate DAC.  It took me years to purchase the power cords, but they have a big impact.

Leif put my new power cords on the cable cookers for the time and currrent profile suggested by MB.  Even so, as Leif suggested, they are continuing to improve even after months of use.  I notice as time passes that they'll be subtle improvements which can be summarized as increased naturalness.  One thing, you'll want to avoid moving the cables since that will cause the Ultra cables to need time to reach their performance plateau again.

Enjoy,
Robert
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 19 Jun 2018, 12:36 am
Yep, as you say, things are going to continue to improve each and every day. 
This morning I did a quick bit of critical listening and again, I can notice a big improvement over when I first hooked them up last Wednesday.
The top end is really floating now and both the transparency and clarity have improved. Its like there are no cables attached to either the amp or the speakers.

The MasterBuilt cables are an incredible improvement to one's system.
They are the last link to be able to get to the final horizon of sound!

My previous cables are/were Monster Cable statement cables called 'Monster Cable "M-Sigma" 2' Statement Speaker Cable. 
Noel Lee incorporates science and technology into all his wire, and the MSigma 2 series are no exception.
For many years I have been very pleased with their natural sound but like everything, technology moves on and with all all the "Buzz" going around with regards to the MasterBuilt line and finally getting to audition the Bi-wire "Reference" pair, I just could not resist. 

Thank you Joe Hakim at Eigen Audio  for offering to lend me the cables to audition in my system.
My honest recommendation to everyone who is serious, with sound, is to at least try them......

Its the old story of "once one has heard better, its hard to go back" right?

In life as you know, "one generally gets what one pays for" and in this case its no exception!

Yeah, everyone is correct in that the MB line is super expensive but in my mind it also delivers the goods BIG TIME!

Boy am I pleased with the sound of my system and they re still breaking in.
I have about 168 hours of playing on them and hope to double that number in another week.

They just keep getting better and better, its amazing......

Again, if it were not for Joe at Eigen Audio I would still be in the dark sound-wise.
Thank you again Joe for making it possible. 

My next step is to acquire 2 pair of XLR interconnects to round out the system.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 19 Jun 2018, 03:07 am
Robert,

I wish I could afford to purchase the Ultra line.
If the Reference line is any indication, then the Ultra line must be outstanding and God-like in its sonic performance!
I was looking for a balance between cost and performance and thought that the middle area was the way to go in this particular case.
Believe me, I am not disappointed at all.
In fact I think the MasterBuilt product is superior to almost everything out there, but at a higher price unfortunately.

All I can say is so far I am excited and pleased with my purchase.

Cheers,
Ian
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 19 Jun 2018, 01:39 pm
New review of the Reference line just came out in The Absolute Sound - they loved it.
Yes cost is an issue. I was able to get some Ultra because my business had an amazing year a few years back and I can purchase as business expense and thereby save taxes, and it is one of those invisible upgrades that pleases my wife, versus more "stereo boxes" in the room.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 20 Jun 2018, 02:44 am
These cables and truly amazing.......   You need to give them a listen!   

To hear them in person is the only way to properly evaluate them.

They are amazing....
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 20 Jun 2018, 05:09 pm
My apologies, for neglecting to mention in my previous post that I was at the time listening intently to my system and it prompted me to post how amazing the new bi-wire MasterBuilt cables sound in my system and how it has vastly improved my music listening pleasure.

Again, thank you Joe Hakim of Eigen Audio for allowing me to be able to test-drive the Reference line of MasterBuilt cables in my home system. 

Without hearing them in my system I would still be sitting on the outside looking in and wondering what others who have the product are talking/raving about.  Hence my prompting last night to post on AC to share the excitement I was experiencing.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 20 Jun 2018, 05:22 pm
I keep subscribed to this thread for a daily chuckle. :popcorn:
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 20 Jun 2018, 05:36 pm
Hello Sandrock,

Thanks for sharing your experience with the MB cables.

I never get tired of hearing about the MB cables and how it has changed peoples systems:)

I just wanted to share with you that I use the Reference power cords, Reference USB, and Reference XLR Interconnects in my system at home. I know not to dare bring Ultra home.  I did that once and so very quickly took it out knowing I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole lol.  I never sit there thinking I wish this system sounded better.  I am running the Signature speaker cables.  The beauty of the MB cables is how well they integrate between the four different lines.  Putting just one set of Ultra interconnects in between the pre and amp can change the system to an entirely different level.  The same would be for adding a Signature I/C to a loom of Reference.  Or just increasing the amount of Reference to the system is huge!  Adding MB power cords is a major increase to sonic performance.  The Performance Line power cords is MB's least expensive cable, but this is a great way to really increase system performance for the least amount of money.
I very happy to hear you are please with the cables and they will continue to improve over time.  I still get phone calls from customers telling me that even after 1000 hours their system is still improving.  Sit back and enjoy the ride😊

All the best

Leif
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 20 Jun 2018, 06:39 pm
Well Russell, If you can see the humor in speaker cables then more power to you!
I guess humor works in mysterious ways and perhaps you are a 'testament' to that fact.

BTW, just wondering if you have ever consulted a 'Hearing Doctor' or 'audiologist' to check out to see if you might be "hearing impaired" and/or can not actually hear any improvements and unable to notice how much quality cables make to a system, sound-wise!

If not then I would highly recommend that you make an appointment right away before your hearing gets any worse. 

Just a tip from the 'wise'. 

Good luck with what they say and perhaps the medical profession can fix/cure your hearing to a point that you will be better able to hear in the future.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 20 Jun 2018, 06:55 pm
One audiophile I respect calls these trolls "pigeons". They come in drop their poop and leave. I am  interested in posts where the person actually reports that they listened to any equipment, cable etc in their system, described the system, room and type of music, and then states that they heard no difference, or better or worse change. That type data is valuable versus apriori conjecture and judgement.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 20 Jun 2018, 09:34 pm
Sandrock and gammajo,

After the best part of 45 years depending on my hearing for my livelihood, my hearing had better be fine, and it is. Thanks for your 'concern'.

Something important I have learned over those years is the incredible power of expectation bias. I have been bitten more than once by it.

Many have never experienced this for themselves because they have never needed to take the trouble, and meaningful comparisons are difficult.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Early B. on 20 Jun 2018, 09:58 pm
Something important I have learned over those years is the incredible power of expectation bias. I have been bitten more than once by it.

Let's assume most upgrades are a result of expectation bias. So what? If it's perceived as better, then it's better. No one can say otherwise. Obviously, if I buy an "upgrade," I expect it to be better than what it replaces. Am I biased? Damn right I am. But that proves nothing. 

Some people seem to forget that audio is exceedingly subjective, so insisting on objectivity with listening tests borders on being ridiculous.   
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 20 Jun 2018, 10:14 pm
Hello Gammajo,

I concur with your comments.  I have a friend who behaves in the same way and its funny to watch him respond back with all sorts of different tracks when I confront him with the "truth". 
He just can't handle it! 
So the end result for him is to say once he knows he has been pinned to the mat is to say out loud...
Your funny!
This is his way of acknowledging that he is beat and logic and truth have won out!

I wonder if Russell might display the same 'behavior-pattern' when he gets pinned to the mat?

But perhaps not, as we all know, 'once a troll always a troll' and no amount of settled science of facts will discourage them!
For some reason they all seem to relish in their stupidity and ignorance and will never admit that they might be wrong!! 

He is just like my friend.....

I always say the "one should give casual time to casual people, and serious time to serious people"

Sometimes when I feel in the mood and have the time to play, I like to 'thrust and parry" with them for fun as it continues to amaze me how pig-headed they can be and the stupidity of their answers is dumbfounding.

Sad but true.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: es347 on 20 Jun 2018, 10:14 pm
I keep subscribed to this thread for a daily chuckle. :popcorn:

..really?  How bout letting us in on the joke?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 20 Jun 2018, 10:18 pm
Early B,

How very true you are and I fully concur with your comments!
Congratulations for being so succinct in your post!

I guess one can lead a horse to water but one can not make it drink it, right?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 20 Jun 2018, 10:42 pm
I guess one can lead a horse to water but one can not make it drink it, right?

I guess 'one' cannot.

I was trying to be helpful in my response but now realize the impossibility of the task.

Of course I should have known that 'one' becomes very emotionally involved when 'one' spends an absurd amount of money on something so difficult to rationalize.

Forget it, y'all. :lol:
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Wind Chaser on 20 Jun 2018, 10:46 pm
So is there a money back satisfaction guarantee?

Despite all the explanations, at the end of the day we're still talking about cables with wire, right?

Shit, I thought I blew a roll on some costly liquid cables with a great deal of scientific explanation, which quite frankly flew over my head. But at least I was able to grasp one thing, there's no wire in my cables. And even though I haven't compared them to anything except some well regarded high value wire cables - yes the liquid cables are clearly superior.

To my way of thinking wire is wire, even if Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee "built" it so to speak. Nonetheless I am open minded.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 20 Jun 2018, 10:47 pm
..really?  How bout letting us in on the joke?

You're right. Spending megabucks on wire is not funny.

The scrambling to rationalize is what I found amusing. Not any more, though. Life is too short.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 20 Jun 2018, 11:15 pm
Russell,

I am so surprised to learn that you have depended on your hearing for 45 years for your livelihood and yet if that were so, then I wonder why you can not hear the difference between cables like others can?
I mean especially since you have relied on your hearing for 45 years for your livelihood it would seem to be a 'no-brainer' for sure.
Unlike the rest of us who listen for recreation and enjoyment without depending on our hearing for our livelihood we actually can hear a difference.

So I am confused as to why you claim that there is no difference in wire performance regardless of cost? 
What am I missing? 
Because you know, that I and others do hear the difference!

For me, I come from a practical background as in 'show-me' and leave my emotions outside the door before I enter the room.
That way it comes down to the reality of is this product better, worse or the same as I have now?
Money aside.

As I mentioned several posts ago, the reason I use the term "One" is because its a pronoun in the English language.  It is a gender-neutral, indefinite pronoun, meaning roughly "a person".  Simple huh?
Especially when one has proper and correct command of the English language.

So as I was saying before I digressed for an clarification moment,  "one generally gets what one pays for"
And in this case MasterBuilt cables outperform all others but at a higher price, right?

That my friend is then up to you to decide if you want to pay the 'freight' or pass and know that you could have better if only you could affort to pay more, simple huh?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Wind Chaser on 20 Jun 2018, 11:18 pm
If you don't mind, I have another question...

Do you offer any system counselling, recommendations or advice as far as associated gear is concerned? Surely you must understand, just because a component is relatively very costly, that doesn't mean it is inherently objectively/subjectively better than a much less costlier component. I had a friend who by his own admission understood this with respect to his Levinson 33r's.

So to get back to the point, is it fair to say that these alleged super high performance cables may not be of much benefit if something else in the system isn't up to the task? If so, how does one know if the rest of his system is worthy of such wire? 
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Mountainjoe on 20 Jun 2018, 11:34 pm
If you don't mind, I have another question...

Do you offer any system counselling, recommendations or advice as far as associated gear is concerned? Surely you must understand, just because a component is relatively very costly, that doesn't mean it is inherently objectively/subjectively better than a much less costlier component. I had a friend who by his own admission understood this with respect to his Levinson 33r's.

So to get back to the point, is it fair to say that these alleged super high performance cables may not be of much benefit if something else in the system isn't up to the task - despite it's relatively high price tag? If so, how does one know if the rest of his system is worthy of such wire?

To this and your earlier question - this is why I offer an in-home demo of MB cables as I believe it is the only way for my clients to evaluate the performance of a cable - i.e. in their own systems. I provide demo cables to clients for a period of 1-2 weeks (depending on demand) so they can live with them and get a full appreciation of what they can do in their own system.

That said, regardless of the system, IME you will always hear some benefit with MB cables, though the degree of the benefit depends on the rest of the system. Obviously there is a point where you get garbage-in, garbage-out, but I assume we are not talking about low-fi systems here  :scratch:

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 20 Jun 2018, 11:40 pm
Russell,

I am so surprised to learn that you have depended on your hearing for 45 years for your livelihood and yet if that were so, then I wonder why you can not hear the difference between cables like others can?
I mean especially since you have relied on your hearing for 45 years for your livelihood it would seem to be a 'no-brainer' for sure.
Unlike the rest of us who listen for recreation and enjoyment without depending on our hearing for our livelihood we actually can hear a difference.

So I am confused as to why you claim that there is no difference in wire performance regardless of cost? 
What am I missing? 
Because you know, that I and others do hear the difference!

For me, I come from a practical background as in 'show-me' and leave my emotions outside the door before I enter the room.
That way it comes down to the reality of is this product better, worse or the same as I have now?
Money aside.

As I mentioned several posts ago, the reason I use the term "One" is because its a pronoun in the English language.  It is a gender-neutral, indefinite pronoun, meaning roughly "a person".  Simple huh?
Especially when one has proper and correct command of the English language.

So as I was saying before I digressed for an clarification moment,  "one generally gets what one pays for"
And in this case MasterBuilt cables outperform all others but at a higher price, right?

That my friend is then up to you to decide if you want to pay the 'freight' or pass and know that you could have better if only you could affort to pay more, simple huh?

I guess when one pays that kind of money in one's pursuit of sonic perfection, one has elevated oneself socially to the point that one can start throwing "ones" around, and does.

"One can lead a horse to water but one can not make it drink", eh?

Give me a break.

Here's something to consider: I never said I couldn't hear a difference between cables, did I? One seems to have missed that.

My microphone cables cost me $10 USD a foot in 1990 dollars, as did all my analog interconnects in my studio. By pro standards of the time I was nuts and looked at sideways, but I did it because I could hear the difference.

What I am arguing about is the wisdom of spilling $7500 big ones on speaker cable instead of buying, say, better speakers—or positioning your speakers better in your listening room. I see you have yours firing straight ahead; almost never optimum under any circumstances.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Wind Chaser on 20 Jun 2018, 11:49 pm
Thanks Joe,

I wouldn't buy anything without the assurance of a satisfaction money back guarantee, but that still doesn't answer the issue of guidance in terms of addressing system handicaps. At this point I'm not ready to commit to such cables. Some people think as a matter of principle I've already gone too far off the insane deep end with the thousands of dollars I've spent on my current cables.  :lol:
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 20 Jun 2018, 11:57 pm
Well Russell,
You maybe quite right in your response.
However as this thread is about specifically "speaker/audio cables" one has the understanding that your comments go directly to the point of you not hearing any 'differences' between cables.
I think you may of stated or implied that point with your previous rhetoric which was understood by others on this site to be the case.

Now, you have made an about face and only claim that you would not "pay" for high-priced cables because its to much money for you to spend. 
This is a valid point, but it is directly opposed to all of your previous posts, skirting around the issue of not hearing any differences between cables. 

So are we reaching the "your funny" post?
Or do we have more to go before that card is played?

Just wondering......
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: htradtk on 20 Jun 2018, 11:58 pm
Russel,

There is some very intelligent audiophiles on this thread, we don’t need no cheep talk here! Yes, those Masterbuilt cables are amazing! I see a Signature Power cord in my future!

Henry
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 21 Jun 2018, 12:06 am
Russell
Just to be clear. I am amazed that you feel qualified to deride as in "joke of the day" without ever hearing the product in question. Does that not seem a laughable position?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 21 Jun 2018, 12:15 am
Wind chaser,

I can fully understand your valid comments.

What we are discussing is a vital part of the HiFi system, specifically the speaker/audio cables.
As I am sure you will agree that on this site and this thread we are discussing the merits of inserting MasterBuilt cables into our systems and how it changes/improves the sound of that said system.

MasterBuilt cables are at the very pinnacle of performance and well above the mundane stereo systems of the general public at large.
So its important to understand that placing to much emphasis/price on only one particular part of the whole system will unbalance the system as a whole and could be a waste of money with 'over-kill'.

It might be the case that what you have right now might not be beneficial to purchase MasterBuilt cables as it could get your system out of whack at least financially-speaking.  Only you can make that decision.

I will say that if you were to purchase any of the masterBuilt line it will only improve your sound but by how much I am not sure and only you can determine that amount.
These cables are not for everyone but to those who have a resolving system the cables will resolve the system even more so.

Its players choice and your milage may vary.

But as Joe has suggested, if you are at all interested in them then contact Joe or your nearest dealer or the factory and try them in your own system.
I did and I was hooked in a big way!

Just my 2 cents worth.

Happy listening to your system.
I know I am really enjoying the new-found sonics that MasterBuilt has brought to my table......
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 21 Jun 2018, 12:20 am
Gammajo,

Well said!
Again, once a troll always a troll, right?
Its sad that we have trolls but given where we are politically-speaking they seem to come out of hiding and try to create havoc with other intelligent and caring people who value the truth and facts as presented to them.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 21 Jun 2018, 12:38 am
I guess when one pays that kind of money in one's pursuit of sonic perfection, one has elevated oneself socially to the point that one can start throwing "ones" around, and does.

"One can lead a horse to water but one can not make it drink", eh?

Give me a break.

Here's something to consider: I never said I couldn't hear a difference between cables, did I? One seems to have missed that.

My microphone cables cost me $10 USD a foot in 1990 dollars, as did all my analog interconnects in my studio. By pro standards of the time I was nuts and looked at sideways, but I did it because I could hear the difference.

What I am arguing about is the wisdom of spilling $7500 big ones on speaker cable instead of buying, say, better speakers—or positioning your speakers better in your listening room. I see you have yours firing straight ahead; almost never optimum under any circumstances.

So Russell,

Iam even more confused with your comment above!
Why did you not just come out of the closet and state that point in the first place???
Why all the beating about the bush when all you needed to say was that you found MasterBuilt cables way too expensive for your pocket book!
But for some strange reason you thought it would be cute to play games instead.
What a boring person you are!

Again, I don't disagree with you about the high price of admission to the MasterBuilt line of cables however I am so astounded with what they can do to my upper-midrange system that I am delighted to pay the entrance fee.
Some can, others are unable to either want to or be able to pay that price.
Perhaps you are in the latter instead of the former?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 21 Jun 2018, 02:58 am
I'm done; I'm just wasting my time.

One has one's limits.

I've had enough popcorn.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Letitroll98 on 21 Jun 2018, 02:39 pm
Sandrock, I've just read this thread and I have to say it's been awhile since I've seen such sanctimonious cyber bullying on this site.  Russell Dawkins is a well respected and very experienced recording engineer and you go after him like teenager on Facebook with your fanboy rhetoric and insults.  I suppose this is allowed on the manufacturer circles, I assure you it wouldn't be tolerated on the community circles.

By all accounts Master Built cables are excellent products that transmit every nuance of the recording.  They are superior in every way to many other cables.  There is nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, in these cables that can't be duplicated with a minor amount of forensic analysis.  The geometry can be had with a utility knife and a pair of diagonal pliers.  The metallurgy and dielectric composition can be determined by any QC/QA chemical lab in the country.  The connectors can be purchased by anyone.  In fact, the construction details, such as they are described on the website, looks quite like the premium line of our own Zen Wave Audio here on AC.  The point being there is nothing new under the sun about cables.  There's no special knowledge that only Master Built engineers are aware of or materials only they have access to.  Quality products like these are expensive to manufacture and the price should reflect that.  There's no friggin way any audio cable with any construction or materials justify an $8,000 price tag (I'm going by reported pricing, there doesn't seem to be a price list anywhere so please feel free to correct me).  The "magic sauce" descriptions on the web site doesn't engender confidence that everything is above board.  I'm sure Chinese clones could be had for a significant price break.  My thoughts without having heard them in my system, an excellent product that's significantly over priced.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: maxima95 on 21 Jun 2018, 03:24 pm
Letitroll98

Spot on.  Thank you for stepping up.

Russell made a somewhat condescending post (#63) that could be read as implying that cables don't make a difference.  However, in his subsequent posts, he never said that cables don't make a difference; only that the MB at issue were overpriced. 

Sandrock - There was no need to repeatedly flog the same or similar point with adolescent rhetoric, particularly when you made an incorrect assumption.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Letitroll98 on 21 Jun 2018, 03:59 pm
Yes, Russell can be very blunt and often condescending regarding his opinions on the general subject of home audio, but when dealing with someone personally he is always the perfect English gentleman and never makes a personal attack.  He's no wimp, he will defend himself when attacked, usually with a snide comment about the issue, but you don't see him questioning a person's hearing or the quality of their system.  We have often disagreed, but I can't remember a single argument, it's entirely unfair that he is treated this way.  Typically a facilitator would have stepped in a while back, but I completely understand that manufacturer's circles are paid for and can moderate as they see fit, I wouldn't ever question their decisions here.  I hope I haven't stepped on the toes of the sponsors with my posts, I felt somewhat offended and thought I should speak up.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Wind Chaser on 21 Jun 2018, 04:17 pm
I can appreciate Russel's point, these are most likely the most insanely expensive cables on the market. However they are not intended to be used with the vast majority of systems. As much as I hate formulas, a system budget of about 20% allocated to cables means there is a place for these; so if your system is worth at least 50K and you're wondering if there's a bottle neck, these might be the answer. But for anyone with a system where the speakers and components do not cost as much as these cables, these cables would not be appropriate. As Russell pointed out, you'd be far better off spending a few thousand dollars more on new speakers (or an amp etc) than new cables. 
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Delta77 on 21 Jun 2018, 04:26 pm
I can appreciate Russel's point, these are most likely the most insanely expensive cables on the market. However they are not intended to be used with the vast majority of systems. As much as I hate formulas, a system budget of about 20% allocated to cables means there is a place for these; so if your system is worth at least 50K and you're wondering if there's a bottle neck, these might be the answer. But for anyone with a system where the speakers and components do not cost as much as these cables, these cables would not be appropriate. As Russell pointed out, you'd be far better off spending a few thousand dollars more on new speakers (or an amp etc) than new cables.

My option would be pretty much exactly the same as you wrote here..
 Must be a budget for the Cables..  15 - 25 %, of system total would sound about right..
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: kernelbob on 21 Jun 2018, 05:09 pm
I disagree about the budget percentages for cables.  Way too simplistic.  Listen and evaluate the impact, then decide on what level to purchase based on the sound.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Wind Chaser on 21 Jun 2018, 05:40 pm
I disagree about the budget percentages for cables.  Way too simplistic.  Listen and evaluate the impact, then decide on what level to purchase based on the sound.

That’s fine, I did say “I hate formulas” - didn’t I?

My point was it doesn’t make sense to spend as much or even more on cables than the rest of your system. If one’s system is worth 15K, they’d be pretty fucking stupid to spend 5K on a power cord, or 7K on a pair of ICs, or 17k on speaker cables etc.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 21 Jun 2018, 06:48 pm
Windchaser - These are not most expensive cables on market  - witness Crystal Cable PC $16,500, Siltech Emperior Speaker Cable $40,000, Nordost $33,000, Audioquest Speaker $76,000, MIT ACC $80,000 and the list goes on through another half dozen brands at least.
 
Kernelbob +1,

Evaluate many products of all types and compare cost to benefit IN YOUR SYSTEM with your room, power quality, equipment, musical tastes and budget with no preconceptions and you may be surprised where the best bang for buck comes from. Particularly at higher levels of resolution, and low levels of noise, cables may come into the equation with increasing importance. 
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Wind Chaser on 21 Jun 2018, 08:12 pm
Windchaser - These are not most expensive cables on market  - witness Crystal Cable PC $16,500, Siltech Emperior Speaker Cable $40,000, Nordost $33,000, Audioquest Speaker $76,000, MIT ACC $80,000 and the list goes on through another half dozen brands at least.

Just goes to prove that if you build it, they will come. I think I'm going to design high end cables starting at 500K for the entry level.

And people wonder why high end audio is dying...
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: gammajo on 21 Jun 2018, 08:59 pm
Wind Chaser - Indeed top prices on all stereo equipment are now stratospheric. It joins to unobtainium enjoyed by the new royalty in the areas of private planes, yachts, watches etc. I count myself blessed to have found a very sweet musical spot, miles below the top. Such discovery is the reward carefully listening to stuff both above and below one's range of affordability and picking the best value for your circumstances. I was surprised along the way to find for me that cables contributed much more than I expected to the mix.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Early B. on 21 Jun 2018, 10:21 pm
I was surprised along the way to find for me that cables contributed much more than I expected to the mix.

This is a key point. It may sound strange to some, but cables can improve the sound more than a component upgrade. That's why some of them are priced accordingly. Audio is a very strange hobby. There are no formulas. Sometimes you gotta throw common sense and reasoning out of the window.

 
     
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Rx8man on 22 Jun 2018, 12:14 am
This is how I view it, if you have the cash to spend on a particular cable and it sounds great in your system, have at it and be happy.

I know things can be ridiculously priced, no need to justify it, or if you want a better deal, wait a while for a used one to come up, there is a market out there, that simple.

Another thing, it's easier to skip threads you don't like or agree with, no one's forcing anyones fingers, just walk away, life's too short to argue over these beaten debates.

Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: OzarkTom on 22 Jun 2018, 12:46 am
Windchaser - These are not most expensive cables on market  - witness Crystal Cable PC $16,500, Siltech Emperior Speaker Cable $40,000, Nordost $33,000, Audioquest Speaker $76,000, MIT ACC $80,000 and the list goes on through another half dozen brands at least.

Wow! :o

Give me this kind of money and I will add the ultimate soundroom to my house. Room acoustics has been the biggest difference in my experience in the last 45 years. 15 years selling high end audio.
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Yun66 on 22 Jun 2018, 11:11 am
This is like 1% vs 99%. Why someone spends that kind of money on cables? Because they can! Whether those super cables are really better will never be known to the vast majority of us. Nevertheless, I believe what they heard and appreciate they are sharing the experience. 
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: es347 on 22 Jun 2018, 09:37 pm
You're right. Spending megabucks on wire is not funny.

The scrambling to rationalize is what I found amusing. Not any more, though. Life is too short.

..take you own advice about life being too short...too short to waste time debating with a bunch of self hypnotizing crazies right?  Maybe you’d find something elsewhere to get your daily chuckles, no?
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Sandrock on 23 Jun 2018, 03:17 am
Amen, brother......
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: leif8660 on 24 Jun 2018, 04:35 pm
That’s fine, I did say “I hate formulas” - didn’t I?

My point was it doesn’t make sense to spend as much or even more on cables than the rest of your system. If one’s system is worth 15K, they’d be pretty fucking stupid to spend 5K on a power cord, or 7K on a pair of ICs, or 17k on speaker cables etc.
I guess I fall into the stupid category then since my speaker cables cost more than my electronics on one of my systems.  But you have no idea what these cables did to performance of this system.  Cables to me are just as important as every other component in the system.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181770)
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: Wind Chaser on 24 Jun 2018, 05:05 pm
I guess I fall into the stupid category then since my speaker cables cost more than my electronics on one of my systems. Cables to me are just as important as every other component in the system.

Yes, cables are just as important as everything else in a system. How much you spend on cables relative to everything else is your business. As long as you’re happy with your decision, you don’t owe anyone, least all me, an apology or an explanation. As the wise man said...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU#fauxfullscreen (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU#fauxfullscreen) :thumb:
Title: Re: MasterBuilt Audio Cables
Post by: SundayNiagara on 24 Jun 2018, 05:47 pm
I guess I fall into the stupid category then since my speaker cables cost more than my electronics on one of my systems.  But you have no idea what these cables did to performance of this system.  Cables to me are just as important as every other component in the system.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181770)

Finally, someone on this forum who has their system set up properly. :)