Help me understand hybrid cars.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 6437 times.

mix4fix

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 2379
  • I reject your music, and substitute my own.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #80 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:07 pm »
I hope it's OK if I address each of the points you bring up individually.  Some were true in the past but not any more. 

Re: mining of battery materials - it's not any more dirty than mining pretty much everything else we make.  Also, nowadays the batteries in EV's are highly recyclable, between 80 and 90% - https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/are-electric-car-batteries-recyclable

Re: electric cars in a traffic jam, it's actually MUCH better to be in an EV in a traffic jam.  A gas or hybrid can only run the engine for a few hours before it runs out of gas, even starting from a full tank.  An EV that's not moving (or just inching along) can run the environmental controls for several days.  You can see this for yourself with people on youtube going camping in their Teslas and running the heater several nights in a row to keep them warm. 

All the rest of your points - I completely agree with you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04MXepYiBs

I always refer back to this.

I agree with Jeremy Clarkson. It isn't what you drive. It's how you drive. If you drive like a maniac, it is bad for the environment as well as unsafe.

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #81 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:09 pm »
And to follow up my point, Dave, if you are so against cobalt mining, then here are the things you must also be against (not just EV's), because it's used in a LOT of stuff.  Again, you don't get to pick and choose.  If you don't want to be a hypocrite, you must come out against ALL of these things that cobalt gives us:



Even if we ELIMINATED all battery mining, that doesn't even get us halfway there to eliminating the mining those poor children are doing that you are so concerned about. 

Oh and another thing that just occurred to me.  You know what Cobalt is ALSO used in?  Refining gasoline.  It's used as a catalyst for crude oil.  Yep, so if you are against Cobalt mining than you need to give up gasoline, too.

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #82 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:15 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04MXepYiBs

I always refer back to this.

I agree with Jeremy Clarkson. It isn't what you drive. It's how you drive. If you drive like a maniac, it is bad for the environment as well as unsafe.


Dude, that video is 8 years old.  Tech has moved on since then.  I've been posting about actual 'gas' mileage I am getting right now, today with current tech.  132 miles per gallon.  And I only sometimes drive like an idiot :P

DaveC113

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 4347
  • ZenWaveAudio.com
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #83 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:19 pm »
Actually you are wrong, once again.  Batteries are being recycled, by businesses, for profit, already:

https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/

The only hiccup they are experiencing is the EV batteries are lasting MUCH LONGER than they originally anticpated so there's less to recycle at the moment.  But it is happening and it is scaling up quickly.

Re: child labor, I assume you are talking about cobalt?  If so, you are fine to criticize batteries for containing cobalt.  Personally I don't care as most of the things we make have to be dug up and most of it is unhealthy.  I am just being consistent.  I care more about having a modern lifestyle than I care about the cost.  That's true of oil, gas, steel, lithium, copper, all of it.  You might cry for cobalt miners but if you do that then you need to cry about ALL mining.  Otherwise you are simply a hypocrite.

Lol, you are totally clueless. Calling me a hypocrite too... :lol: Get a grip, man! You are so biased you can't even take a minute to look up the horrors of cobalt mining.  :duh:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ev-cobalt-mines-congo/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelposner/2023/02/09/as-demand-soars-for-cobalt-used-in-electric-car-batteries-heres-what-companies-need-to-do-in-the-democratic-republic-of-congo/?sh=c5dc0116471a

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #84 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:21 pm »
Lol, you are totally clueless. Calling me a hypocrite too...  :lol:   Get a grip, man! You are so biased you can't even take a minute to look up the horrors of cobalt mining.  :duh:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ev-cobalt-mines-congo/

I'll give up my EV after you give up your computer, phone, tires on your car, magnets in your speakers and steel used for making your car.  ALL of it involves cobalt.  If you want to say "no wait, I like those other things and want to keep them but EV's are bad because of Cobalt".  Well, I'm sorry that makes you a hypocrite.

mix4fix

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 2379
  • I reject your music, and substitute my own.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #85 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:24 pm »
Dude, that video is 8 years old.  Tech has moved on since then.  I've been posting about actual 'gas' mileage I am getting right now, today with current tech.  132 miles per gallon.  And I only sometimes drive like an idiot :P

It still holds true.

I drive normal. I drive slightly above the speed limit (under 80 in a 70) on long distance Interstates runs, and i still get passed like I was sitting still.

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #86 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:26 pm »
It still holds true.

I drive normal. I drive slightly above the speed limit (under 80 in a 70) on long distance Interstates runs, and i still get passed like I was sitting still.


Yep, you drive like I do. 

Driving like that in my old Acura MDX got me 22 mpg.  Now with the Model Y I get 132 MPG.  That's why I'm saying the tech has moved on.  The vehicles today are MUCH more efficient than the old Prius you linked to.
« Last Edit: 27 Oct 2023, 07:53 pm by Tyson »

DaveC113

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 4347
  • ZenWaveAudio.com
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #87 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:40 pm »
Now with the Model Y I get 132 MPG. 

Sure you do.  :lol:

I'll give up my EV after you give up your computer, phone, tires on your car, magnets in your speakers and steel used for making your car.  ALL of it involves cobalt.  If you want to say "no wait, I like those other things and want to keep them but EV's are bad because of Cobalt".  Well, I'm sorry that makes you a hypocrite.

It's a question of QUANTITY. Of course you can't understand nuance like that, it doesn't serve to reinforce your beliefs.

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #88 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:46 pm »
Sure you do.  :lol:

It's a question of QUANTITY. Of course you can't understand nuance like that, it doesn't serve to reinforce your beliefs.

Did you not see the graph I posted above?  Not even half of the cobalt use is batteries.  The majority of it is for other stuff.  Again, if you actually care about the miners you would start boycotting everything that uses cobalt.  Again BATTERIES ARE A MINORITY.

But, there's even better news than that.  There's a new battery chemistry that doesn't use cobalt at all - LFP batteries.  Even though it's new it's already jumped up to over 30% of all EV's.  If you want to put your money where your mouth is, just buy an LFP EV. 

mix4fix

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 2379
  • I reject your music, and substitute my own.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #89 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:58 pm »
I'll give up my EV after you give up your computer, phone, tires on your car, magnets in your speakers and steel used for making your car.  ALL of it involves cobalt.  If you want to say "no wait, I like those other things and want to keep them but EV's are bad because of Cobalt".  Well, I'm sorry that makes you a hypocrite.

I am using old technology: DDR2 motherboards and SATA hard drives I had laying around. So, let's not act like some of us are buying new iPhones every year.

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #90 on: 27 Oct 2023, 07:01 pm »
I am using old technology: DDR2 motherboards and SATA hard drives I had laying around. So, let's not act like some of us are buying new iPhones every year.


Then, like I said just buy an LFP powered vehicle, they are cobalt free.

Personally I do cycle through laptops and iphones pretty regularly so I had already accepted that my purchases fund some not-great mining practices re: cobalt.  Also, cobalt is used for refining gasoline.  So even if I'd bought another ICE vehicle, I'd still have to deal with cobalt being used to fuel them.

Actually I shouldn't say "just buy an LFP powered vehicle".  IMO you should be able to buy whatever vehicle you want, for whatever reason you want.  For me, an EV is the best option but for others it's not.  And that shouldn't be forced. 

Also IMO, the only way EV's will come to fully replace ICE cars is when they are actually better for everyone.  Till then, they are better for some people but not for everyone and that's OK.

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #91 on: 27 Oct 2023, 07:49 pm »
Sure you do.  :lol:

If you had actually read my previous posts, you would already know that.  Here's the link to the part in this very thread where I work through the math using my car and my actual charging costs:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=187127.msg1964028#msg1964028

Here's the relevant bits:

Quote
In fact, here's my own personal experience.  I've driven right at 2000 miles in my Tesla so far.  I charge it at 10 cents per KWh.  So that means I've paid $61 to go 2000 miles.

How does that stack up against my last car, an Acura MDX?  Well, let's do some math to find out.  The MDX has 19mpg city and 25mpg highway.  Lets take the average, 22mpg.  Divide that into 2000 miles:

2000/22 = 90.9 gallons

So to drive 2000 miles, my old MDX would have required about 91 gallons of gasoline.  How much would that cost?  If I look at the average cost of gas in CO right now, it's just over $4.  So we'll round down to $4 to be conservative:

90.9 x $4 = $363

So my old gas car would have cost me $363 while my new EV only cost me $61.  That's a savings of $203.  And if we divide out the 2 costs we can see just how much cheaper electricity is vs gas:

$363/$61 = 5.9

That means driving a gas car is almost 6x more expensive than driving an EV.  Today.

To round out the math re: mpg, just multiply my old Acura's MGP times 5.9.

22mpg x 5.9 = 130mpg

So that's 130mpg on my new Model Y. 

I mean, that's just math.  You do understand math, right?

RDavidson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2865
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #92 on: 27 Oct 2023, 08:14 pm »
After all these years, EV’s are still just glorified go karts primarily for urban use. I can see why city dwellers especially love them.

Current battery technology isn’t the answer and I won’t buy an EV until this changes. I know there’s a lot of battery technology being developed now that looks VERY promising. Maybe in 5-10 years it will be in production and used in all kinds of things, and eventually in cars ; Cars take longer because there’s always more red tape, but they’ll get there.

Car charging infrastructure has to be reliable and widespread. Right now it’s neither of these things. Take a road trip across the Midwest and you’ll quickly understand the lack of infrastructure.

Affordability of electric cars will continue to get better, so that whole argument is pointless.

I agree that hybrids are the best “transitional” solution for now (in general) and will be until the aforementioned factors are fully addressed.

With all that, I bought a 2023 Civic Type R back in February and have zero regrets. It could be my last fully ICE car, but we’ll see. Have fun folks! :eyebrows:

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #93 on: 27 Oct 2023, 08:30 pm »
RDavidson,
I think your objections are reasonable, much more so than some of the other things raised by others in this thread.

Hey, if you don't mind, let's play a game!  Lets call it "Can I get there in my Tesla".  Here's how it works - you tell me some random BFE town in the midwest, I'll put that into the Tesla routing map/app and see if I can get there only using Tesla chargers.  Should be fun. 

PS I've already been doing this myself.  Last week I was thinking about where I went to college (San Angelo, TX) and how it was freaking in the middle of nowhere.  I still remember driving from Bastrop (where I went to high school) and it was 4 hours straight of nothingness.  I figured it would be a problem because there's not even many gas stations around in that part of the country. 

But no, the app routed it out and got me there without any issues at all.  I was impressed.  So, I want to try it out some more, and this is a good opportunity.  Let me know some place out in the boonies in your part of the country and I'll see how it does. 

PSS, some places I've already tried - Carson City, Iowa (no problems), then moving west, Joshua Tree, CA middle of the desert, no problem, then moving south to Mexico City, Mexico again no problem.  Then I tried Quebec, Canada, no problem.  So far it's been really impressive.  Those are the hardest places I could think of but I really want to challenge the system, so any place you can think, make it as hard as possible. 

Thanks!

RDavidson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2865
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #94 on: 27 Oct 2023, 08:51 pm »
I try to be a reasonable person who can think critically and not rely on the internet for the “answers,” but I am a human and flawed too. Hahaha!

Plug in Des Moines, IA to Rapid City, SD and see what it says. Factor-in the charging time too.

I consider ~8 hr road trips about the max I’m willing to drive without staying the night somewhere. So if I’m in an EV and I have to stay the night somewhere, then that totally negates my money saved on gas.

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #95 on: 27 Oct 2023, 09:12 pm »
And you are right, it does take longer.  I plotted it in my standard Apple maps first and it's 8.5 hours:





And then I plotted it out on the Tesla app and it gets you there no problem but longer, exactly 12 hours:





You are also right that's there's a trade off - much cheaper to drive but takes longer.  I feel like these are very reasonable points. 

I'm glad we did this because it will help me when I go on longer road trips.  I think one thing that will bring the times closer (for me) is that I will plan to charge the car while I eat (I don't like eating in my car while driving), so it will bring the times closer.  But even that won't make it the same. 

RDavidson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2865
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #96 on: 27 Oct 2023, 09:19 pm »
Always good to see my information validated first hand. Thanks for doing that. :D

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #97 on: 27 Oct 2023, 09:30 pm »
Always good to see my information validated first hand. Thanks for doing that. :D

And it gives me one more use-case where EV's are not for everyone.  Here's my list so far (with this just added). 

Cases where EV's don't make sense:
1. You tow a lot, especially in the cold.  Becuase EV's lose a lot of range when towing and even more range in the cold.
2. You can't charge at home.  So EV's are good if you have a garage but not good if you live in a condo or apartment or your house only has street parking.
3. You travel long distances and value time more than money.

See, I'm not a mindless EV fanboy!  :D. OK, enough talk about cars, time to go listen to some music on my upgraded LGK 2.0 speakers....

Early B.

Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #98 on: 27 Oct 2023, 10:49 pm »
OK, enough talk about cars, time to go listen to some music on my upgraded LGK 2.0 speakers....

Didn't you say you built them for your daughter? :lol:

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11207
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #99 on: 27 Oct 2023, 11:10 pm »
Didn't you say you built them for your daughter? :lol:

Shhhh, she's not here right now :P