AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: jtwrace on 15 Apr 2017, 01:52 pm

Title: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 15 Apr 2017, 01:52 pm
That's right.  We've ("goskers" and I) been eyeing the JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors and thought the best way to hear them and see what's behind them is to take a trip to Northridge, CA to see the whole process.  We were met by the Director of Engineering, Business Development Manager and the WG designer.  They took on us a tour of the whole JBL Pro facility which included, R&D, Testing, Demo and various other departments.  All I can say is that this is what I wanted to see and thus now own a pair of JBL M2 Master Reference Speakers. They should arrive within two weeks.  Below are some pics that I'm allowed to show publicly.  Sorry, the others aren't for public consumption. 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160972) 
Welcome to Harman!


  (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160976)

SUB18 and JBL M2 (Sub was not playing in audition)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160974)
Every component and every assembly goes through a rigorous 100 hr test at full output power. 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160975)
The history of JBL drivers and why they changed! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Nick77 on 15 Apr 2017, 02:14 pm
Wow! Congrats, those look awesome.   :thumb:

What about your new X1?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 15 Apr 2017, 02:21 pm
Wow! Congrats, those look awesome.   :thumb:

What about your new X1?
JBL M2 will be my only pair of speakers. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Letitroll98 on 15 Apr 2017, 02:37 pm
Now that's the way to buy speakers.  Congrats.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 15 Apr 2017, 03:16 pm
Congrats guys, you are going to love them.   I've been living with mine for 5 months and they are the first pair of speakers that I can't possibly imagine they could sound any better and I just enjoy on a daily basis.   Now focus all your nervosa towards the room (via eq or treatments) even though they make even a bad room sound tolerable.

Hint:  if you use any room eq, make sure it doesn't eq anything above Schroeder which is ~150-200hz.   JBL probably also told you the same.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 15 Apr 2017, 03:22 pm
Hey, great news! Congrats Jason!

Can't wait to hear them.  :drool:

Let me know if you need setup help, etc.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: zybar on 15 Apr 2017, 03:31 pm
Congrats Jason.

What will you be using for amplification?

George
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 15 Apr 2017, 03:36 pm
Congrats Jason.

What will you be using for amplification?

George
Crown DCi 4 1250
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: David C on 15 Apr 2017, 05:30 pm
Very jealous! Enjoy let us know how they sound in your set up
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AFRF on 15 Apr 2017, 05:47 pm
Wow, very cool!

I've seen and heard my fair share of JBL line arrays up in the cats and on the ground during rehearsals at live events, also in those terrible, terrible listening rooms at tradeshows where they crank things up to eleven (terrible for me, not fond of loudness), but I in my ignorance did not even know they made anything other than sound reinforcement products, PAs, line array elements, etc. I have spoken with a few JBL employees and have much respect for their work - both engineering, and business model for maintaining and gaining market share in the over-saturated linearray/reinforcement market! Seems every year two or three engineers retire and start their own speaker cos without concern for profitability, as well as new generic entrants from China, Taiwan, Singapore, SK. (I won't disparage these. Some of them sound OK. Not near JBL or Martin grade, but ~60%-70% of the performance at 1/2 or 1/4 the cost gets mighty tempting for many small to mid size venues and touring cos/bands) 

Awesome shot of the cross sections of old and new drivers, too. Side note, I always wonder if the machining and un/reassembly of cross section product demos is something assigned to an intern, or, if the company is large enough, there is some sort of "Marketing Machinist" position, or if it's something the engineers due for fun and pride. (I bet the latter). Does anyone know?

I've been living with mine for 5 months and they are the first pair of speakers that I can't possibly imagine they could sound any better and I just enjoy on a daily basis.  they make even a bad room sound tolerable.

That's why I avoid speakers that are designed to be "reference" or "monitor" speakers. The quotations here are not meant to be sarcastic. Clearly there is a critical need for speakers designed for those applications, and I've had my mind blown in a few recording studios. But my listening environment is my living environment. I have yet to find a way to integrate diffusion or absorption panels or bass traps into a room without compromising the room's visual aesthetics. The one exception might be flat or ribbed lacquered reflection/diffusion panels made of wood - though I haven't tried.

Thanks for sharing your trip! All signs point to a great investment.

AFRF
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Apr 2017, 06:02 pm

  All I can say is that this is what I wanted to see and thus now own a pair of JBL M2 Master Reference Speakers. . 


Can you expound on this for just a bit more? Just curious what made you jump ship from the Spatial X1 to the JBL M2.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 15 Apr 2017, 06:09 pm
Just got back from Harman with jtwrace.  The purpose of the trip was to listen to the M2 loudspeakers and get a chance to see how the company operates.  Harman is the parent company of JBL.  The M2 was developed under the JBL Professional division with the hopes of providing a neutral reference monitor for use in studios and post production work for both the music and film industry. 

The capability that Harman has in house is exactly what is needed to engineer, develop and produce everything needed to attain their goals.  There are two developments in the M2 design which I would consider game changers.  The D2 compression driver uses an donut shaped annular diaphragm.  The standard compression driver which has been largely unchanged for 75 years utilizes a dome diaphragm.  The annular diaphragm has much better structural integrity than a dome type shape.  The only downside is the reduction of surface area and thus output.  The solution was to use two diaphragms which then combine into one device for output.  There are exploded diagrams out there if anyone wants to see the pictorial difference.

The second biggie is the waveguide technology.  I think that controlled directivity is a must in a great set of speakers.  The big difference in the Image Control Waveguide used in the M2 is that reflections produced by the device are minimized in size but not in quantity.  Other designs minimize the quantity of reflections but the size and shape of the waveguide profile can produce a few larger diffraction artifacts as a result.  The deep math and modeling are beyond me but a long session with the M2 left no listening fatigue which can be a good tell tale sign with a waveguide based design.

We listened to various designs in a pretty basic room. It was obvious that this was more of an engineering based test room versus a built out listening room to wow potential customers.  The M2 lived up to my expectations which were incredibly high.  If one is a data forward buyer then the M2 published specs are impressive.  The way with which the M2 was conceptualized and produced trumps that. 

Perhaps even more astounding was the other players in the speaker lineup.  The M2 is the reference and first design to utilize the new waveguide and annular diaphragm compression driver for this type of application.  These pieces have now trickled down into different models.  The 705i, 708i and 305P were all setup next to the M2.  With some software and a switcher we were able to toggle between all four of the models. Although not level matched, nor blind, it was difficult at times to tell one from another.  The family resemblance is remarkable considering the price difference. 

Overall, a great day.  Very pleased we made the trip.  And now the waiting for some big boxes to arrive begins...
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 15 Apr 2017, 06:09 pm
Can you expound on this for just a bit more? Just curious what made you jump ship from the Spatial X1 to the JBL M2.
The JBL M2 fits my requirements and it's as simple as that. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Apr 2017, 06:17 pm
Harman is a 5 billion dollar a year company, so they can build almost anything. :thumb:

Congrats guys.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Freo-1 on 15 Apr 2017, 08:28 pm
The JBL M2 fits my requirements and it's as simple as that.


How could they not? 


Outstanding set of speakers you have there. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: witchdoctor on 15 Apr 2017, 08:46 pm
What a great post, going to Harman JBL facilities and then bringing back their best speakers. I got my JBL Studio 230's (using tricle down tech from the M2) delivered to my door step with a 30 day audition. All I can say is I have no desire to change anything...ever. Is their better SQ out there? Sure, but why fiddle with a great thing? I have mine paired with a Sunfire TG3 preamp and Carver AV 505 amp.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161007)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: witchdoctor on 15 Apr 2017, 08:48 pm
One more thing, those speakers will be VERY transparent to any gear upstream. Have fun :D
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 15 Apr 2017, 10:25 pm
Perfect!  :green:

I'm officially jealous!

New eargasms for 2017 given the M2 + Funk combo!


Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AFRF on 16 Apr 2017, 03:17 am
Harman is a 5 billion dollar a year company, so they can build almost anything. :thumb:

Well, not trying to pop any balloons, but 1) Harman is the parent company of JBL 2) we're talking $5-7 billion in revenue, which is a thin and sometimes misleading measure of success, and $7 billion puts Harman in the lower mid distribution of public companies. "Mid-caps." Several tens or even hundreds of Harmans could fit inside just one Large-cap liiiike say for example, even though I'm not sure if South Korean companies qualify for Wall Street categories, Samsung. Oh, and, 3) as of last month, Harman was bought by Samsung Electronics and is now a subsidiary of Samsung.

In that order.

1) Harman is the parent company of JBL:
I said earlier that I have respect for JBL, and I do. Harman on the other hand, I have a harder time justifying respect for. They don't really have a core business. They just go around buying other businesses in the A/V industry which have good brands and are reasonably profitable, then take a slice off the top, and send in a team of analysts and consultants every once in a while to restructure and do some layoffs. Not saying there isn't skill involved. Clearly there is skill in managing other businesses and staying in business yourself, and it sure paid off for them (the small number of stakeholders who own a company which owns other companies) didn't it?

2) we're talking $5-7 billion in revenue, which is a thin and sometimes misleading measure of success
And we're talking ALL of Harman's holdings combined. I do not know what JBLs contribution to that number is, but it probably isn't huge. Because their products sound good and are well made, it's possible they might not be all that profitable either. But I have no evidence to support this. You definitely can make well engineered professional products and be very profitable, especially in the defense and aeronautics industries. Also, from what I know all of Harman's children are given significant autonomy. JBL remains JBL, with a few asterisks, and access to capital from Harman's coffers if it is required. Same goes for all their other brands. IMO Harman, let alone JBL, does not hold a candle to the elephants, like Yamaha. Now there is a company that can afford to put absurd amounts into R&D into a new product, and does. That's actually what makes JBL quite impressive, they hold their own even though they are small. But perhaps they should be worried because...

3) as of last month, Harman was bought by Samsung Electronics and is now a subsidiary of Samsung.
This deal was just concluded. I'll put chips on the table that Samsung will sniff out and destroy any of the Harman brands which are not handsomely profitable, or don't show promise for future growth. I don't know which brand or brands this will be, but someone is going to go. A lot of legacy brands in their portfolio which have great names and sounds but are too good for capitalism in the age of software. Samsung will cut down and remove any dead weight ASAP. I wonder, actually, if this is why the M2's sound so good.

Could it be that JBL is working their butts off to show Samsung they should stay alive?

AFRF.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 16 Apr 2017, 03:30 am
I am not going to quote all of the above as I don't follow why this has a great deal of relevance to the overall thread.  The comments that have been made were eluding to the capabilities which Harman possesses versus most of the other players in the audiophile market.  This is at least how I perceive the overall inferences being made.

i don't disagree with what was stated, I just don't understand the overall relevance here.

My .02
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 16 Apr 2017, 03:38 am
I am not going to quote all of the above as I don't follow why this has a great deal of relevance to the overall thread.  The comments that have been made were eluding to the capabilities which Harman possesses versus most of the other players in the audiophile market.  This is at least how I perceive the overall inferences being made.

i don't disagree with what was stated, I just don't understand the overall relevance here.

My .02


....and we saw some Samsung stuff being tested by JBL.   :lol:   That tells me a lot too! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 16 Apr 2017, 05:17 am
You got the 4|1250N or ND version with built in DSP for running crossovers and EQ?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 16 Apr 2017, 08:02 am
Entire post deleted due to it being, on second thought, a combination of faulty conjecture and unconstructive dirty laundry airing.

Sorry, all.

Fragments can be seen in replies below.

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 16 Apr 2017, 11:20 am
2. the M2 was designed primarily by Greg Timbers who was unceremoniously let go after a 90 second explanation of benefits on Sep 30 2015. This was followed in March 2016 by the firing of three other top engineers of JBL with a total seniority of 70 years, including the top driver designer, Jerry Moro. These people were the principle talent behind the M2, LSR 705 and LSR 708. As Greg himself said:

"So this brings an end to any world class engineers at JBL. Jerry and I were the last two. There are only 3 guys left and although they are competent, they are no where near the knowledge, success or capability of what they just dumped. The senior Model maker left last week to go elsewhere which means that Consumer no longer has any model making capabilities, either.

It appears that this is the end for JBL was we have known it. The Lab equipment is in total disarray with much of it not working properly. If it weren't for Professional's need for and use of the lab, I doubt that it would function at all. There will be no more internal transducer development, no world class engineers, no more internal model making capabilities and no more real JBL product. It is just going to be me-too product copied from somebody else and designed and manufactured in China or equivalent.
Well, don't know any of those folks personally, but it sounds like a rather bitter, just terminated long time employee.
Much of what he's saying could very well be/turn out true.
However, I'd be remiss to not note that the heart and soul of these new JBL products, which is the annular ring radiator (and coaxial version), is actually "borrowed" tech from BMS (Germany). Yes, JBL may have made a number of improvements to it, but it did not originate from their own vaunted R&D. Maybe the glass isn't quite as half empty...
Samsung acquisition may indeed spell doom, however, Gold Peak (HK) certainly didn't for KEF
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/08/kef-gp-acoustics-no-longer-your-fathers-loudspeaker-company/ (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/08/kef-gp-acoustics-no-longer-your-fathers-loudspeaker-company/) back in 1992.
IMO, the newest KEF products are SOTA and sound that way too. The "old" engineers are all gone, replaced now by this guy responsible for IMHO, the most advanced coax design in the biz:
(http://www.cepro.com/images/uploads/Jack_OB300.jpg)

So I guess I will take a more wait and see attitude before declaring all doom and gloom... :wink:

JT, enjoy your new M2s. Heard them on several occasions, very good, near the pinnacle of box designs IMO.

cheers.

AJ
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 16 Apr 2017, 12:13 pm
You got the 4|1250N or ND version with built in DSP for running crossovers and EQ?

In the DCi series there are two variants.  One was the standard and the other is the 'N' or networked version.  Both have DSP capabilities.  Only the networked version can be used with the M2 and 7 series speakers.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 16 Apr 2017, 12:22 pm

2. the M2 was designed primarily by Greg Timbers who was unceremoniously let go after a 90 second explanation of benefits on Sep 30 2015. This was followed in March 2016 by the firing of three other top engineers of JBL with a total seniority of 70 years, including the top driver designer, Jerry Moro. These people were the principle talent behind the M2, LSR 705 and LSR 708. As Greg himself said:

"So this brings an end to any world class engineers at JBL. Jerry and I were the last two. There are only 3 guys left and although they are competent, they are no where near the knowledge, success or capability of what they just dumped. The senior Model maker left last week to go elsewhere which means that Consumer no longer has any model making capabilities, either.

It appears that this is the end for JBL was we have known it. The Lab equipment is in total disarray with much of it not working properly. If it weren't for Professional's need for and use of the lab, I doubt that it would function at all. There will be no more internal transducer development, no world class engineers, no more internal model making capabilities and no more real JBL product. It is just going to be me-too product copied from somebody else and designed and manufactured in China or equivalent.

I have read this as well.  We heard that three people were really behind the M2.  Mr. Timbers was not listed as one of those.  I believe the Everest design was his last big one.  Just take a look at that versus the M2 as there is a significant visual difference.  The M2 achieves most of the objectives of Olive and Toole to a 'T'.  I get the feeling that the M2 was the first advent of the old school/new school paradigm shift.  I did not get into this discussion on our trip as this is their business not mine.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: mcgsxr on 16 Apr 2017, 12:23 pm
Great story.  Reminds me of guys who pick up their BMW's or Ferrari's from the factory. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AFRF on 16 Apr 2017, 12:57 pm
1. JBL product always has been more respected for their studio and home speakers than their PA systems by those 'in the know'.

Hold on to your Vintage products and hope that you can find a way to get parts when things wear out. None of this will involve Harman any longer!"

So, jtwrace and goskers, it looks like you might literally have bought the last real JBLs. Good timing!

OH, Russell, did not catch that you were one of the JBL engineers. Fine work, and my condolences.

Goskers, my apologies to you and OP if my post seemed to be a derail. Sometimes I go off a bit, but, there is a core there I was hoping to communicate, the bulk of which is encapsulated above in Russell's quote. I won't say JBL is going to get iced, I have no idea (and I'd put Studer and AKG higher on the list for closure than JBL), but there are strong signs that point to JBL engineering becoming more of a "design to cost" game now, handed down and watered down through three layers of management. Once again, congrats on the purchase, and don't mortgage your house or anything, but if there are JBL fans out there with cash on the sidelines, now might be the time to buy JBL monitors or vintage JBL.

I do not know the business dynamics between Harman and JBL, but my limited experience with them, which was exclusively in line arrays and sound reinforcement for events, "them" being JBL, is overall very positive. My hat was always off to them and still is. And if you don't believe me go back to my post on the first page before Russell entered. It seemed that Harman didn't really do that much hands on management, especially they didn't seem to interfere with R&D/engineering, except to review the budget every year and say yes, or no way. Also Harman kept a pretty tight leash on the visual branding of all their companies' marketing material.

But now, with Samsung... oh boy. I'm concerned.

As mentioned, it is absolutely possible for a larger acquisition like this to retain or even enhance the quality of well engineered advanced product, but IMO unlikely!

The international market and economy just isn't there for the type of world class acoustic + EE engineering @ JBL. Or, you really have to find a way to squeeze margins out of it, or, push revenue past, ehhhhh ballpark, $500 million, to add significant value to Samsung's portfolio. Hard to do that with professional/upmarket products like the M2s, because the pool of buyers is small, competition is intense and abundant, and therefore you need a ratio of dollars spent on sales/marketing to actual transaction revenue which is rather poor. I mean, it's AMAZING that you got the experience and hospitality to go to the factory to be convinced of the buy, but how much do you think JBL made off of your purchase? Especially since they pulled engineers and management off the line/cubicle to show you around? $50? $100 maybe? (OK, not I'm starting to drift again: resetting)

Because Samsung's loyalty is first and foremost to their shareholders, then board, then to upper management - I expect they will unleash a small army of accountants and analysts on all the brands Harman owns. These professionals do not care about the heritage of these brands. They don't care what they look like. They don't care what they sound like. They care about two things: past financial statements and future financial projections. If a company like JBL cannot demonstrate they add value to Samsung's portfolio and have potential for financial growth, I bet something bad will happen. Either more severe engineering to cost, or layoffs, or they will try and get rid of JBL altogether, either by firesale or closure.

I doubt this is isolated to Harman/Samsung. If you find components from manufacturers that have more than 20 employees that you love into which lots of R&D was poured, hold on to them!

AFRF
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 16 Apr 2017, 01:19 pm
I mean, it's AMAZING that you got the experience and hospitality to go to the factory to be convinced of the buy, but how much do you think JBL made off of your purchase? Especially since they pulled engineers and management off the line/cubicle to show you around?

AFRF

AFRF,

Our experience was a bit unique.  I don't think it is common place for the hosting of a couple of schmucks as ourselves.  It took a good bit of time and efforts to set up.  It also took the willingness for both of us to fly out there and show that we were serious.  At the end of the day we know that us buying a couple pairs of loudspeakers which are admittedly expensive to us really doesn't move the bottom line for them.

I wish these guys well as any acquisition candidate and typically does bring change.  Sometimes it helps bring light to things that should have time directed to it while other times this as viewed as 'me not being able to work on something just because it's cool'.  Either way, we didn't get the feeling of any alarming tendencies.  In fact, it was just the opposite.  There were a couple of things mentioned in which Samsung was already working with them as an asset.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AFRF on 16 Apr 2017, 01:37 pm
AFRF,
Our experience was a bit unique.  I don't think it is common place for the hosting of a couple of schmucks as ourselves.  It took a good bit of time and efforts to set up.  It also took the willingness for both of us to fly out there and show that we were serious.  At the end of the day we know that us buying a couple pairs of loudspeakers which are admittedly expensive to us really doesn't move the bottom line for them.

Goskers,

Thanks. Can't say that you are a schmuck, or even what the definition of a "schmuck" is, except that it is derisive in nature. You don't seem to be one!

Neither do I know that this type of sales experience is common at JBL. But even that it happened is testament to the good people and corporate culture at JBL for allowing it. Speaks (or rather drives, haha?) volumes. 

And also, thanks to you for sharing your experience with the community. (And for NOT sharing what JBL told or showed you which may have been under wraps - those disclosures prevent these types of visits from happening in the future for others).

I think your post started an interesting discussion which has turned over some rich soil that contributes to our understanding of JBL, and the speaker industry proper (rather than boutique small brands and garage retirement projects - which sound good sometimes, but rarely outlast their founders), past and present.

I am also glad that you saw some positive signs of a continuation of the JBL line with Samsung and possibly a productive new business paradigm.

AFRF
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 16 Apr 2017, 01:53 pm
AFRF,

if I were JBL and heard that a couple of 'audiophools' wanted to come for a visit I would have serious reservations.  We, as a group, tend to focus on things that have been shown not to matter in double blind testing.  The room which we used was populated with basic cabling and sparse room treatments being driven by Crown amps.  Imagine the looks if we were to start quizzing on those items.  These guys practice what is preached in the professional world.  At this point I can't argue with the results.

I am not knocking the smaller manufacturers in the market.  It is just a different result when the resources available to you are able to design, test and manufacture most anything you may require to fulfill a need. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: macrojack on 16 Apr 2017, 02:02 pm
I still remember the hand wringing and dire predictions when Harmon acquired JBL originally. The fears were pretty much the same as now, although nobody mentioned it on the internet.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 16 Apr 2017, 02:05 pm
Quote
The 705i, 708i and 305P were all setup next to the M2.  With some software and a switcher we were able to toggle between all four of the models. Although not level matched, nor blind, it was difficult at times to tell one from another.  The family resemblance is remarkable considering the price difference.

This is quite a statement. Can you guys elaborate a bit on this? How close to the M2s sound, impact, imaging, would you say they come to within their frequency responses, and what model would you buy next to the M2?

I have to wonder if the 705i would be the best imaging of the bunch with the narrow design. Set them up with a pair of Rhythmik subs and have M2s on the cheap. Although I don't know the  705s pricing as I type this.

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 16 Apr 2017, 02:13 pm
I am not knocking the smaller manufacturers in the market.  It is just a different result when the resources available to you are able to design, test and manufacture most anything you may require to fulfill a need.
It's very important to remember that knowing how to use those resources is where the art of business comes in.  Many people always assume that because there is a ton of money that it's always used properly.  Having been involved in this environment I can say with certainly that's not always the case. 


Also a good time to mention that there is a TON of trickle down/up technology at JBL but I'm not able to explain here. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JohnR on 16 Apr 2017, 02:18 pm
Crown DCi 4 1250

Do you need a separate BSS processor?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 16 Apr 2017, 02:26 pm
Do you need a separate BSS processor?
No, load the tuning file into the DCi and you're done. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: NavyDoc on 16 Apr 2017, 03:16 pm
Congrats on your purchase. I have lusted over the M2's since I first heard them at a get together.  The ability to use the networked DCi amps instead of the iTech amps really helped with the cost for enthusiasts.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: OzarkTom on 16 Apr 2017, 03:19 pm
This is quite a statement. Can you guys elaborate a bit on this? How close to the M2s sound, impact, imaging, would you say they come to within their frequency responses, and what model would you buy next to the M2?

I have to wonder if the 705i would be the best imaging of the bunch with the narrow design. Set them up with a pair of Rhythmik subs and have M2s on the cheap. Although I don't know the  705s pricing as I type this.

Rocket Ronny

$695 for a pair of B-stocks on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-of-JBL-LSR-705i-Master-Reference-Monitor-Speakers-5-Factory-B-Stock-/332182814184?hash=item4d57a37de8:g:B-oAAOSwCWFY8B1D

Somebody had 10 pair of new ones on Ebay for 450 a pair, but sold 9 pair to one person.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 16 Apr 2017, 03:33 pm
I guess no comparison with K2, Everest or 4367? That would have been interesting...

I have heard the BMS dual diaphragm compression driver, it was a step up from most typical 2-way waveguide speakers I've heard. JTR uses them in their speakers, which are an exceptional value as well.

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 16 Apr 2017, 03:59 pm
I guess no comparison with K2, Everest or 4367? That would have been interesting...

I have heard the BMS dual diaphragm compression driver, it was a step up from most typical 2-way waveguide speakers I've heard. JTR uses them in their speakers, which are an exceptional value as well.
I heard the 4367 the week prior...
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 16 Apr 2017, 05:11 pm
I have read this as well.  We heard that three people were really behind the M2.  Mr. Timbers was not listed as one of those.  I believe the Everest design was his last big one. 

That is what I heard through the grapevine from someone in the factory.  Timbers did a lot of somewhat similar designs but more consumer oriented, whereas the M2 was more pro-recording studio oriented.   I guess that makes us prosumers. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 16 Apr 2017, 05:29 pm
Congrats on your purchase. I have lusted over the M2's since I first heard them at a get together.  The ability to use the networked DCi amps instead of the iTech amps really helped with the cost for enthusiasts.

Also the fans on the DCi are near silent for me, whereas the Itech are meant to be leave blowers.   

You can use the BSS Processor if you want to use your own amps, but I can't really see the point.  The crown amps are super powerful and perform exceptionally well.   

The DCi amps are permanent install amps which work well for us audiophiles rather than the touring version which is the itechs. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 16 Apr 2017, 05:33 pm
I have read this as well.  We heard that three people were really behind the M2.  Mr. Timbers was not listed as one of those.  I believe the Everest design was his last big one.
You might well be right about the Everest. I can't remember where I got the impression that Greg was involved with the M2—maybe it was some of his knowing comments on the design. I think the Studio 500 series (530, 570, 580 and 590) may have been his last designs. That, also, is conjecture although it would fit with what JoshK just said.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 16 Apr 2017, 05:34 pm
I have to wonder if the 705i would be the best imaging of the bunch with the narrow design. Set them up with a pair of Rhythmik subs and have M2s on the cheap. Although I don't know the  705s pricing as I type this.

Rocket Ronny

In my experience with well designed constant directivity (CD) speakers sans any large diffraction edges (the waveguide minimizes this to a large extent), that old audiophile rule of thumb that narrow designs image better doesn't hold true.  The M2s image about as good as any other speaker I've heard and what is more is it holds in off axis.  They are the opposite of the head-in-the-vise speaker design.   My guess (also noted in one pro review) is that the radial horn of the 4367 (Greg Timber design iirc) is more traditional horn and thus a very narrow sweet spot.   That is why he was a fan of the radial axis standing upright in some of his other designs.   A proper CD horn with minimal diffraction actually has a very wide sweet spot with excellent separation and imaging. 

Further, I'd rather have a speaker with a larger waveguide all else being equal due to the more controlled pattern it holds to a lower frequency.   The 705's waveguide is almost too small to be super useful, but still they pull it off somehow.  The 708 is about the minimum size waveguide for good CD speaker design based on my studies.   I think part of the magic of the M2 is the large waveguide that matches a well controlled large woofer capable of moving real amounts of air without excess distortion. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 16 Apr 2017, 05:46 pm
Well, don't know any of those folks personally, but it sounds like a rather bitter, just terminated long time employee.

You could be right!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 16 Apr 2017, 05:50 pm
OH, Russell, did not catch that you were one of the JBL engineers. Fine work, and my condolences.
AFRF

I'm not, or I wouldn't have made the mistake of assuming that Greg Timbers was behind the M2.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 16 Apr 2017, 06:11 pm
Greg has wrote about the experience on other forums, those interested can search and find easily.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: OzarkTom on 16 Apr 2017, 07:15 pm
Greg has his own website.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/people/timbers.htm
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Odal3 on 16 Apr 2017, 10:49 pm
That's the way to shop for speakers! Congrats on your purchase. Enjoy!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Angaria on 17 Apr 2017, 12:33 am
The 705i, 708i and 305P were all setup next to the M2.  With some software and a switcher we were able to toggle between all four of the models. Although not level matched, nor blind, it was difficult at times to tell one from another.  The family resemblance is remarkable considering the price difference. 

Overall, a great day.  Very pleased we made the trip.  And now the waiting for some big boxes to arrive begins...

I find this point of comparison to be very interesting - as you say, seeing performance that doesn't fall off with dramatically different price points is cool.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 01:22 am
That's the way to shop for speakers! Congrats on your purchase. Enjoy!
Thanks!   :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: witchdoctor on 17 Apr 2017, 03:15 am
Entire post deleted due to it being, on second thought, a combination of faulty conjecture and unconstructive dirty laundry airing.

Sorry, all.

Fragments can be seen in replies below.


After I bought my last JBL's I liked them so much that I sent Greg a CD as a thank you (Apostrophe by Zappa) and Charles Sprinkle a CD (Bush by Snoop Dog) and a thank you note. I wish I would have known to send you one too. Thank goodness I sent before Greg left.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JohnR on 17 Apr 2017, 09:50 am
No, load the tuning file into the DCi and you're done.

Oh, OK cool  :thumb: Very neat!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 02:23 pm
Oh, OK cool  :thumb: Very neat!
If you're curious, you can go to the link below and click on "Tunings" on the right side and read all about it.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/m2/m2-master-reference-monitor#.WPTPpPkrLDc

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 17 Apr 2017, 02:29 pm
If you're curious, you can go to the link below and click on "Tunings" on the right side and read all about it.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/m2/m2-master-reference-monitor#.WPTPpPkrLDc
Tweaker heaven  :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 02:32 pm
Tweaker heaven  :thumb:
If one wanted to but I'll stick with the anechoic data.   :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 17 Apr 2017, 02:35 pm
If one wanted to but I'll stick with the anechoic data.   :green:
For now... :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 02:42 pm
For now... :green:
Ha!  I'm not a tweaker when it comes to that stuff.  Take measurements and fix the room....multiple subs etc.  It ain't that hard.   :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: NavyDoc on 17 Apr 2017, 03:14 pm
JBL M2 will be my only pair of speakers.

Cant wait to read your thoughts once they arrive.  With the LIO front end I would expect stellar performance.

I may end up with the same setup.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 17 Apr 2017, 04:33 pm
On another forum, a guy who goes by Gooddoc put in a minor shelving filter to dial down the top end a wee bit.  That is the kind of stuff that audio architect will work well to do (you can even save different presets) that I wouldn't want to do in a AV processor.    You can go all tweaker, but I'm not a tweaker either.   I just set them up as per factory and enjoyed for the last 5 months.   I'll run room eq when I finish setting up my Atmos. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 17 Apr 2017, 04:35 pm
P.S.  since both of you will be using the DCi amps with the M2s, if you run into any trouble loading the tunings, give me a shout.   I spend 1.5hrs on the phone with a rep because there was one key thing left out of the instructions.   They probably fixed it but if they haven't, it is easy enough to do. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 04:36 pm
On another forum, a guy who goes by Gooddoc put in a minor shelving filter to dial down the top end a wee bit.  That is the kind of stuff that audio architect will work well to do (you can even save different presets) that I wouldn't want to do in a AV processor.    You can go all tweaker, but I'm not a tweaker either.   I just set them up as per factory and enjoyed for the last 5 months.   I'll run room eq when I finish setting up my Atmos.
Nice.  Do you run full range tuning or the HPF tuning?  Multi subs?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 04:37 pm
P.S.  since both of you will be using the DCi amps with the M2s, if you run into any trouble loading the tunings, give me a shout.   I spend 1.5hrs on the phone with a rep because there was one key thing left out of the instructions.   They probably fixed it but if they haven't, it is easy enough to do.
Thanks!  The instructions posted are still from 2015.  Please send the info!  ;-)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 04:40 pm
Cant wait to read your thoughts once they arrive.  With the LIO front end I would expect stellar performance.

I may end up with the same setup.
I don't expect my thoughts to change any other than strengthen.  I'm pretty stoked!   :D
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 17 Apr 2017, 04:49 pm
At the moment, because I've been lazy the last couple of months (long story but transitioning jobs), I haven't set up surround, and am running 2.0 only.   I put in the HPF tuning, but I really don't need to for my listening levels.    I will likely change that when i go back to add the tunings for my 7 series surrounds and atmos.     I have dual Rythmik subs at the moment with two other subs in storage (don't think they'll fit in this apartment). 

I've even been too lazy to hang my AT screen and projector, and just been using my trusty old 58" plasma. 

The one bit missing from the instructions was that when you load the M2 tunings (only a problem with M2 and DCi combo) the software doesn't automatically save it to the profile.  The trick is that you need to manually enter the name of the tuning after loading it, which will force it to save it to your amp.    It was a software bug, not something missing per se from the instructions since no other combo had this issue.  I actually found the fix myself while on the phone with them because they didnt' have the same combo on hand and couldn't recreate the problem.    In the big M2 thread on AVS, I was a bit clearer in my explanation because it was fresh on my mind.   I'll look for it, maybe a screen shot too.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 04:54 pm
At the moment, because I've been lazy the last couple of months (long story but transitioning jobs), I haven't set up surround, and am running 2.0 only.   I put in the HPF tuning, but I really don't need to for my listening levels.    I will likely change that when i go back to add the tunings for my 7 series surrounds and atmos.     I have dual Rythmik subs at the moment with two other subs in storage (don't think they'll fit in this apartment). 

I've even been too lazy to hang my AT screen and projector, and just been using my trusty old 58" plasma. 

The one bit missing from the instructions was that when you load the M2 tunings (only a problem with M2 and DCi combo) the software doesn't automatically save it to the profile.  The trick is that you need to manually enter the name of the tuning after loading it, which will force it to save it to your amp.    It was a software bug, not something missing per se from the instructions since no other combo had this issue.  I actually found the fix myself while on the phone with them because they didnt' have the same combo on hand and couldn't recreate the problem.    In the big M2 thread on AVS, I was a bit clearer in my explanation because it was fresh on my mind.   I'll look for it, maybe a screen shot too.
Gotcha.  Easy enough to find, thanks!  I'll probably go with full range and measure before adding the subs to see what happens.  I purchased (2) of the new Funk Audio 21.0LXE subs using the UH21V1 drivers to start.  Space is also at a premium since moving from my previous house but I'll add more if needed to get the measurements correct like I had previously until I move again.  As you know, usually the ideal is 4 anyway. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 17 Apr 2017, 05:18 pm
At the moment, because I've been lazy the last couple of months (long story but transitioning jobs), I haven't set up surround, and am running 2.0 only.   I put in the HPF tuning, but I really don't need to for my listening levels.    I will likely change that when i go back to add the tunings for my 7 series surrounds and atmos.     I have dual Rythmik subs at the moment with two other subs in storage (don't think they'll fit in this apartment). 

I've even been too lazy to hang my AT screen and projector, and just been using my trusty old 58" plasma. 

The one bit missing from the instructions was that when you load the M2 tunings (only a problem with M2 and DCi combo) the software doesn't automatically save it to the profile.  The trick is that you need to manually enter the name of the tuning after loading it, which will force it to save it to your amp.    It was a software bug, not something missing per se from the instructions since no other combo had this issue.  I actually found the fix myself while on the phone with them because they didnt' have the same combo on hand and couldn't recreate the problem.    In the big M2 thread on AVS, I was a bit clearer in my explanation because it was fresh on my mind.   I'll look for it, maybe a screen shot too.

Good stuff to know.  My order is slightly different as I went with the DCi8/600. A bit less power but it will run my M2 LCR off of one chassis. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 17 Apr 2017, 05:20 pm
I'm running DCi4/600 for LR.   I have a DCi8/300 for surrounds, atmos, and for now center, so even less power to center until I grab another DCi2/600
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 05:20 pm
Good stuff to know.  My order is slightly different as I went with the DCi8/600. A bit less power but it will run my M2 LCR off of one chassis.
I will be flying to hear this FULL JBL ATMOS setup!   :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 17 Apr 2017, 05:28 pm
I will be flying to hear this FULL JBL ATMOS setup!   :thumb:

You'll have to wait until May then  :cry:

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 17 Apr 2017, 05:31 pm
I'm running DCi4/600 for LR.   I have a DCi8/300 for surrounds, atmos, and for now center, so even less power to center until I grab another DCi2/600

I decided on the 8/600 for LCR which leaves two channels left over for sub duties.  The surrounds are all 305p as you know.  I can get power above my ceiling so that became the most cost effective solution.  I would have loved to do 705 everywhere but funds aren't unlimited.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 05:33 pm
You'll have to wait until May then  :cry:
I'm thinking longer than that since you're going to need time to get it all dialed in. Unless that's why you want me there in May (put my ass to work!).   :P :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 17 Apr 2017, 05:36 pm
I hear you.   I put off the 7 series for surrounds/atmos as was going to use my Concentric 8s, but they I was let onto that b-stock clearance and pulled the trigger (they have some minor cosmetic flaws, nothing major).    I sold the Con8s. 

I am using 2x 708i for sides, and 4x 705i for atmos.  That leaves two channels for the center.   I will look to upgrade when/if I feel the need.   Since I live in a high rise apartment building (old concrete construction) I have to be mindful of my neighbors.  But so far I haven't gotten any word from my neighbors on spirited listening/demo sessions and I know my neighbors and told them to let me know if I was being annoying. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 17 Apr 2017, 05:40 pm
...The surrounds are all 305p as you know.  I can get power above my ceiling so that became the most cost effective solution.  I would have loved to do 705 everywhere but funds aren't unlimited.

If you see the need (probably not), you can always upgrade them to 705p ($1k/ea) and don't have to worry about the amp reqs, it would be a simple swap. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 17 Apr 2017, 05:42 pm
If you see the need (probably not), you can always upgrade them to 705p ($1k/ea) and don't have to worry about the amp reqs, it would be a simple swap.

That is certainly the future plan.  I just don't see these as being the limiting system factor considering they are surround duty but who knows.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 17 Apr 2017, 05:50 pm
Yeah, I don't really put a lot of priority on the surrounds.   As long as you can't hear them stressing on soundtracks, why bother?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 17 Apr 2017, 05:52 pm
Yep, and with gentle high pass I don't think overall output should be a problem. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 06:11 pm
And you have M2's for LCR so the important stuff is covered!   :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Odal3 on 17 Apr 2017, 06:20 pm
What do you use for pre-pro in your surround setups?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 17 Apr 2017, 06:33 pm
Anthem AVM 60   (same a most on the big M2 thread)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2017, 07:03 pm
Anthem AVM 60   (same a most on the big M2 thread)
What do you use for a dac?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 17 Apr 2017, 07:43 pm
Anthem AVM 60   (same a most on the big M2 thread)

As of today I have the same on order.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 17 Apr 2017, 09:36 pm
What do you use for a dac?

Well at the moment I don't have it hooked up.   I have a PS Audio Directstream DAC with a Sonore Sig Rendu as renderer.   I have a Goldpoint XLR A/B switch so that I can switch between the AVM and a 2 channel front end.   Also have the Allnic L1500 preamp.   I will do some comparisons soon to see what I like best, but honestly the SSR > AVM is pretty good.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 17 Apr 2017, 09:40 pm
If you could do some AB that would be nice.  I will be in a similar situation and don't want to waste any money if the difference is negligible.

The benefit of running all things through the AVM is ARC for bass management of course.  This would leave me with the possibility of an external dac only on analog input.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 18 Apr 2017, 01:30 am
Well at the moment I don't have it hooked up.   I have a PS Audio Directstream DAC with a Sonore Sig Rendu as renderer.   I have a Goldpoint XLR A/B switch so that I can switch between the AVM and a 2 channel front end.   Also have the Allnic L1500 preamp.   I will do some comparisons soon to see what I like best, but honestly the SSR > AVM is pretty good.

I have the same Goldpoint XLR switch for the similar reasons. Unfortunately, the AVP is not as transparent as the TAPX but as you know my setup is not fully active, it's a hybrid.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Apr 2017, 01:49 am
I have the same Goldpoint XLR switch for the similar reasons. Unfortunately, the AVP is not as transparent as the TAPX but as you know my setup is not fully active, it's a hybrid.

Best,
Anand.
Which AVP are you using? 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 18 Apr 2017, 02:06 am
Which AVP are you using?

A prehistoric one (from 2013), the Sherbourn PT-7030.

I am contemplating the Anthem unit mentioned as well as Emotiva's XMC-1 (https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1).

The problem with AV Processors is the same problem with D/A converters. They are constantly being replaced. From that standpoint my TAPX has been an incredible investment.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Apr 2017, 02:10 am
A prehistoric one (from 2013), the Sherbourn PT-7030.

I am contemplating the Anthem unit mentioned as well as Emotiva's XMC-1 (https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1 (https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1)).

The problem with AV Processors is the same problem with D/A converters. They are constantly being replaced. From that standpoint my TAPX has been an incredible investment.

Best,
Anand.
Gotcha. Yes, but that's b/c it's not made anymore!  Also, it was proven to me that it's not needed anymore.   :P
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Odal3 on 18 Apr 2017, 02:25 am
Anthem AVM 60   (same a most on the big M2 thread)

Nice!  :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JohnR on 18 Apr 2017, 08:54 am
If you're curious, you can go to the link below and click on "Tunings" on the right side and read all about it.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/m2/m2-master-reference-monitor#.WPTPpPkrLDc

Cool, thanks JT  :thumb: I hadn't delved that far, only saw the recommended i-tech/separate BSS pairing, hence my earlier question.

Enjoy the speakers...!  :drums: :guitar: :rock:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JLM on 18 Apr 2017, 11:09 am
Any correspondence with the creator of gear is really cool beans.  A visit to the factory is even cooler. 

Congrats on your purchase and your chance to visit Harmon.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: orientalexpress on 18 Apr 2017, 12:50 pm
Congratulation,how long is the wait before it arrival?Now i gotta hear this :D
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Apr 2017, 01:30 pm
Congratulation,how long is the wait before it arrival?Now i gotta hear this :D
Got notice yesterday that they should ship in 2 weeks. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: macrojack on 18 Apr 2017, 02:22 pm
Got notice yesterday that they should ship in 2 weeks.
Looks like you found a way to make time stand still. Two weeks will feel like 2 years. I've lost track of your evolution. What will us downstream types be tempted by when the new gear arrives? Sounds like speakers and amps at least. Didn't you just buy some Spatial X speakers recently?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Apr 2017, 02:32 pm
Looks like you found a way to make time stand still. Two weeks will feel like 2 years. I've lost track of your evolution. What will us downstream types be tempted by when the new gear arrives? Sounds like speakers and amps at least. Didn't you just buy some Spatial X speakers recently?
Nah, seems like the amp will arrive shortly so then I can get it setup and ready and all cabling ready and be waiting for the speakers.  I passed on them.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2017, 02:13 am
My amp has arrived and it's setup with the tuning files and all (only showing one screen).  I even updated the firmware via the GUI.   :thumb:


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161408)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 26 Apr 2017, 03:19 am
Very cool! 

Any ETA on the M2 delivery?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Odal3 on 26 Apr 2017, 03:22 am
I hoped they would have brought the M2s to Axpona so could hear them, but unfortunately they didn't.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 26 Apr 2017, 02:10 pm
I hoped they would have brought the M2s to Axpona so could hear them, but unfortunately they didn't.
The passive 4367's were there in the Audio Solutions room. They played them briefly while we were there, sounded quite nice, though not an M2.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 26 Apr 2017, 02:19 pm
So jealous!  :thumb: :thumb:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2017, 02:43 pm
Very cool! 

Any ETA on the M2 delivery?
Maybe the end of next week. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2017, 02:45 pm
I hoped they would have brought the M2s to Axpona so could hear them, but unfortunately they didn't.
The pro side wasn't there, only Harman Luxury so that's why the 4367's were there. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 26 Apr 2017, 03:09 pm
Maybe the end of next week.

Or a bit longer for those using a different amp and processor. 

Attempting to put my patience pants on now...
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: NavyDoc on 26 Apr 2017, 03:39 pm
The pro side wasn't there, only Harman Luxury so that's why the 4367's were there.

How close are the 4367's to the M2 for sound quality?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Odal3 on 26 Apr 2017, 03:47 pm
The pro side wasn't there, only Harman Luxury so that's why the 4367's were there.

The rep in the room said he had actually asked to bring them but his boss had said no.
But I get it if you want the focus to be on one thing only.

So that means that you have to invite all of us over for a get together so we can hear them  :lol:  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2017, 04:14 pm
How close are the 4367's to the M2 for sound quality?
IMO, a different league as one would expect. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2017, 04:14 pm
The rep in the room said he had actually asked to bring them but his boss had said no.
But I get it if you want the focus to be on one thing only.

So that means that you have to invite all of us over for a get together so we can hear them  :lol:  :icon_lol:
Of course he did!  Everyone would want the M2 which doesn't help Luxury. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 26 Apr 2017, 05:05 pm
Hard to see the details on your pic. Does the GUI reveal the filter function specifics? Or is there just a "M2 setup" file that keeps the details hidden?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2017, 05:12 pm
Hard to see the details on your pic. Does the GUI reveal the filter function specifics? Or is there just a "M2 setup" file that keeps the details hidden?
Yes, it does show it all in another screen.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2017, 05:13 pm
So that means that you have to invite all of us over for a get together so we can hear them  :lol:  :icon_lol:
My door is always open for listening. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: witchdoctor on 26 Apr 2017, 08:12 pm
The passive 4367's were there in the Audio Solutions room. They played them briefly while we were there, sounded quite nice, though not an M2.

Great review of the 4367
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/jbl-4367-studio-monitor-loudspeaker-review/
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 27 Apr 2017, 12:11 am
Thanks for the link. The low freq distortion is incredible!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 27 Apr 2017, 01:05 am
Thanks for the link. The low freq distortion is incredible!

I smell a JBL 4367 in Rich's future  :green: Of course I along with jtwrace would be overjoyed  :singing:

I'll personally help you setup, measure, and implement multiple subs (if needed)- gratis  :thumb:


Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: witchdoctor on 27 Apr 2017, 01:14 am
Don't forget the entry level versions using trickle down tech from the M2, the Studio Monitor LSR-305 and 305 and the JBL Studio 2 Series (which also happen to be on sale).

http://www.jbl.com/studio-2-sale/

I have a perfectly capable subwoofer in my desktop setup but feel like getting the 250P just because it matches my 230's.

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: OzarkTom on 27 Apr 2017, 01:45 am

I have a perfectly capable subwoofer in my desktop setup but feel like getting the 250P just because it matches my 230's.

$300 on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-Sub-250P-10-Powered-Subwoofer-/201518179910?afsrc=1&rmvSB=true
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 27 Apr 2017, 01:46 am
Don't forget the entry level versions using trickle down tech from the M2, the Studio Monitor LSR-305 and 305 and the JBL Studio 2 Series (which also happen to be on sale).

http://www.jbl.com/studio-2-sale/ (http://www.jbl.com/studio-2-sale/)

I have a perfectly capable subwoofer in my desktop setup but feel like getting the 250P just because it matches my 230's.
Ha!  You should hear the 705 and 708! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 27 Apr 2017, 01:46 am
I think I might have found my dac to feed the Crown amp.   :D


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161447)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 27 Apr 2017, 01:47 am
Of course I along with jtwrace would be overjoyed  :singing:

Best,
Anand.
Why so? 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 27 Apr 2017, 01:53 am
Why so?

Because he'll finally have a CD design...what he's been secretly lusting for all this time in his diy travels...

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Nick77 on 27 Apr 2017, 11:36 am
I think I might have found my dac to feed the Crown amp.   :D

I recently heard the Manhattan playing DSD files. Sublime.............

Im sure the Brooklyn is equally as impressive.  :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JDUBS on 27 Apr 2017, 12:18 pm
What are the specs on the A->D conversion for the Crown amp?  Can you feed it a digital signal directly so as to avoid the A->D and then D->A?

-Jim
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 27 Apr 2017, 12:35 pm
I recently heard the Manhattan playing DSD files. Sublime.............

Im sure the Brooklyn is equally as impressive.  :thumb:
I went back and fourth between the two and didn't hear $3k+ worth of happiness there. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 27 Apr 2017, 12:36 pm
What are the specs on the A->D conversion for the Crown amp?  Can you feed it a digital signal directly so as to avoid the A->D and then D->A?

-Jim
As far as I know, you can't do that. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: NavyDoc on 27 Apr 2017, 12:44 pm
What are the specs on the A->D conversion for the Crown amp?  Can you feed it a digital signal directly so as to avoid the A->D and then D->A?

-Jim

You can with the Crown iTech-HD amps.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 27 Apr 2017, 12:57 pm
You can with the Crown iTech-HD amps.
Right.  FWIW, the two top engineers at JBL recommended the DCi.  The one uses DCi on his personal system with M2's and obviously he can have anything he wants.  I'll also add that after my specific amp questions there was no doubt that the DCi was the way to go unless I was into spending more money (which I was more than willing to do) that was unnecessary.  Also important to note that JBL wouldn't go through the process of tuning files for different amps if it wasn't sufficient. The way they do it is quite resourceful so they wouldn't waste their time if it didn't meet specs.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 27 Apr 2017, 03:57 pm
Thanks Anand, but I'm not quite ready to chug the coolaid yet.  ;) :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 27 Apr 2017, 05:13 pm
Thanks Anand, but I'm not quite ready to chug the coolaid yet.  ;) :lol:
That's fine.  Happy cutting and sanding!  It's what you enjoy!   :thumb:

Obviously I don't and strongly believe in a proper WG/CD design.   :D
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 27 Apr 2017, 10:14 pm
Oh, I know for sure they're gonna be awesome. Just poking a little fun with Anand's salesmanship. ;)  And he may well prevail in the end as my DIY speaker days are numbered. I can't wait to hear them!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: sonicboom on 28 Apr 2017, 01:28 am
As far as I know, you can't do that.

Do the DCi amps have the required DSP capability to do what's needed in driving the M2's, or will you be using the BSS Soundweb London processor feeding the DCi amps?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Apr 2017, 01:51 am
Do the DCi amps have the required DSP capability to do what's needed in driving the M2's, or will you be using the BSS Soundweb London processor feeding the DCi amps?
Yes, all built in to the DCi 4/1250n
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 28 Apr 2017, 01:52 am
Do the DCi amps have the required DSP capability to do what's needed in driving the M2's, or will you be using the BSS Soundweb London processor feeding the DCi amps?

The DCi amps have all of the capability and more.  Even after the stock tuning for the M2 or 7 series you are allowed additional EQ capabilities to deal with some room anomalies.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JDUBS on 28 Apr 2017, 04:26 am
IMO, a different league as one would expect.

Why would this be expected?  They use the same drivers, right? 

-Jim
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 28 Apr 2017, 06:15 am
IMO, a different league as one would expect.

Why would one expect that?

Here's a Polish review of the 4367 for yet another perspective:
http://highfidelity.pl/@main-622&lang=en
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JohnR on 28 Apr 2017, 06:19 am
Passive crossover / compare the measurements.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Apr 2017, 11:37 am
Why would this be expected?  They use the same drivers, right? 

-Jim
Same drivers, yes.  Different crossover and waveguide. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 28 Apr 2017, 04:44 pm
Same drivers, yes.  Different crossover and waveguide.
Did you get the opportunity to hear them side by side, perchance?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Apr 2017, 04:53 pm
Did you get the opportunity to hear them side by side, perchance?
I didn't but week before the Harman trip and week after the Harman trip. I was able to listen to them in different systems and different rooms.  If the 4367 was subjectively better I would've purchased given how much easier it would have been to integrate.   The reality is that they're not so the M2 was the best choice for me.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 28 Apr 2017, 05:07 pm
I didn't but week before the Harman trip and week after the Harman trip. I was able to listen to them in different systems and different rooms.  If the 4367 was subjectively better I would've purchased given how much easier it would have been to integrate.   The reality is that they're not so the M2 was the best choice for me.
Thanks. Sometimes better is better and it's obvious without a direct comparison. I experienced that when I auditioned my K+H o300s in isolation and an unfamiliar acoustic back in 2010. I didn't need to compare them directly with the speakers I was then using for studio monitors; it was immediately apparent that they matched reality better.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: lowtech on 28 Apr 2017, 07:01 pm
At the end of the day we know that us buying a couple pairs of loudspeakers which are admittedly expensive to us really doesn't move the bottom line for them.

Don't sell yourself short.  Look what your efforts did for Earl Geddes.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Apr 2017, 07:02 pm
Don't sell yourself short.  Look what your efforts did for Earl Geddes.
Yeah, it pushed him to now be a stained glass artist.   :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: bernardo on 28 Apr 2017, 07:10 pm
I assume your comment about pushing him to be a stained glass artist is an inside joke - care to explain it?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Apr 2017, 07:18 pm
I assume your comment about pushing him to be a stained glass artist is an inside joke - care to explain it?
He's retired from speaker building and is making stained glass art from what I understand. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 28 Apr 2017, 09:03 pm
Ha, when I was ~20 I worked for a stained glass studio for a couple years.

I think the 4367 has the potential to be real close to the M2 but it's not a set system so could vary a lot more. Many benefits of the M2 are not going to be realized outside of a dedicated room, most non-dedicated rooms trash the ruler flat fr and the precise WG is also of less benefit. The M2 is a tool for production of audio first and foremost.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 28 Apr 2017, 09:29 pm
Found this interview with the lead M2 engineers. Lots of technical info on the speaker as a whole.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDmzfpf3fCk
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Apr 2017, 02:09 am


I think the 4367 has the potential to be real close to the M2 but it's not a set system so could vary a lot more. Many benefits of the M2 are not going to be realized outside of a dedicated room, most non-dedicated rooms trash the ruler flat fr and the precise WG is also of less benefit. The M2 is a tool for production of audio first and foremost.
Having heard both of them and know the design differences as discussed with the engineers I'll disagree on all levels. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 Apr 2017, 02:53 am
I think the 4367 has the potential to be real close to the M2 but it's not a set system so could vary a lot more. Many benefits of the M2 are not going to be realized outside of a dedicated room, most non-dedicated rooms trash the ruler flat fr and the precise WG is also of less benefit.

Dave,

I completely disagree.

A **properly** designed CD based loudspeaker allows the loudspeaker to perform very well in a non dedicated room and extremely well in a dedicated room. It's the reason CD even exists. Now the magic word is **properly**. Some of the finest loudspeakers I have heard do extremely well in the horizontal plane and have high and constant directivity indices, such as my Geddes NA 12 whose DI is flat from about 1khz to 10 kHz and is ~ 10dB. But that is not true of the NA12 in the vertical plane and to my knowledge, it hasn't been measured in oblique planes.

The M2 is different. It has constant DI in the horizontal, vertical and oblique planes. It hits the nail completely on the head from about 800 Hz on up to about 8-10khz, at +/- 60 degrees. From a psychoacoustics standpoint this is exactly where an acoustical engineer wants to concentrate. If you pulled off a flat and constant DI  in the horizontal plane there will be a raging applause. The fact that they did it in the other 2 planes is complete icing on the cake! From what Toole's research has shown this is also of benefit from a psychoacoustic standpoint. Of course, Geddes disagrees.

JBL has the tools, the resources, the dedicated anechoic chambers and technical know how to execute this from what I am seeing. I haven't seen a loudspeaker that has been able to pull this off at such a price.

The video that Richidoo linked above is quite informative and Mr. Sprinkle does go into some of those exacting details. It behooves one to watch it.

One final point. The reason I have a dedicated room is because I can. Not because it's required. With a non-CD speaker it is absolutely required. The loudspeaker industry (most of which are non-CD designs) are driven by perception driven propaganda, hence the numerous glitzy shows, which is entertaining of course, but deceiving. I've tried hard to stop believing in the glamor myself.

The M2 is quite refreshing in that regard.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DS-21 on 29 Apr 2017, 04:15 am
As far as I know, you can't [avoid the DAC/ADC].

If your source is a computer, you can. Buy one of these USB -> blu link converters.
http://bssaudio.com/en-US/products/blu-usb

From there You can run it into Crown DCIn amps, or one of the BSS processors and whatever other amps.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Apr 2017, 12:27 pm
If your source is a computer, you can. Buy one of these USB -> blu link converters.
http://bssaudio.com/en-US/products/blu-usb (http://bssaudio.com/en-US/products/blu-usb)

From there You can run it into Crown DCIn amps, or one of the BSS processors and whatever other amps.
Interesting.  Looks like it's only 24/192 capable.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Apr 2017, 12:34 pm
Speaker wire has arrived! 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161545)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Nick77 on 29 Apr 2017, 12:54 pm
Quote
           Speaker wire has arrived! 
                                                             

Your using copper clad aluminum lamp cord on a 20k speaker.  :scratch:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Apr 2017, 03:27 pm
Your using copper clad aluminum lamp cord on a 20k speaker.  :scratch:
Good thing the speakers aren't $20k! :P
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Apr 2017, 03:29 pm
I did get some more done though. 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161550)
Got the wire all hooked up to the amp end and labels installed


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161551)
Finally, sub stands put together too! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Letitroll98 on 29 Apr 2017, 04:00 pm
Speaker wire has arrived! 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161545)

 :o   I suppose it's good that you don't rely on others to validate your audio cred.  It's there a specific reason you don't use better cabling?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 29 Apr 2017, 04:43 pm
Dave,

I completely disagree.

A **properly** designed CD based loudspeaker allows the loudspeaker to perform very well in a non dedicated room and extremely well in a dedicated room. It's the reason CD even exists. Now the magic word is **properly**. Some of the finest loudspeakers I have heard do extremely well in the horizontal plane and have high and constant directivity indices, such as my Geddes NA 12 whose DI is flat from about 1khz to 10 kHz and is ~ 10dB. But that is not true of the NA12 in the vertical plane and to my knowledge, it hasn't been measured in oblique planes.

The M2 is different. It has constant DI in the horizontal, vertical and oblique planes. It hits the nail completely on the head from about 800 Hz on up to about 8-10khz, at +/- 60 degrees. From a psychoacoustics standpoint this is exactly where an acoustical engineer wants to concentrate. If you pulled off a flat and constant DI  in the horizontal plane there will be a raging applause. The fact that they did it in the other 2 planes is complete icing on the cake! From what Toole's research has shown this is also of benefit from a psychoacoustic standpoint. Of course, Geddes disagrees.

JBL has the tools, the resources, the dedicated anechoic chambers and technical know how to execute this from what I am seeing. I haven't seen a loudspeaker that has been able to pull this off at such a price.

The video that Richidoo linked above is quite informative and Mr. Sprinkle does go into some of those exacting details. It behooves one to watch it.

One final point. The reason I have a dedicated room is because I can. Not because it's required. With a non-CD speaker it is absolutely required. The loudspeaker industry (most of which are non-CD designs) are driven by perception driven propaganda, hence the numerous glitzy shows, which is entertaining of course, but deceiving. I've tried hard to stop believing in the glamor myself.

The M2 is quite refreshing in that regard.

Best,
Anand.

Yup, I understand all that but still stick to my comments. M2 is also much wider dispersion than most wg speakers and for them to perform as intended will require a dedicated room. I'm not saying you can't get great results for music listening without that, but that's not really the point. JBL went to great lengths to make them measure darn close to perfect so they can be the best tools possible for production of audio in a studio setting. If you throw them in a common living room some of that will be lost. I'm not sure how that's even debatable as measurements will easily confirm it. That also doesn't mean that the perfect measurements are all for nothing, of course it helps as this isn't black or white. But considerable complexity has been added to the M2 system to accomplish it's goals and make it a great tool, I wouldn't understand buying a speaker like this and not having a perfect room for them, because that's the point, technical perfection. If you're going to do something do it right. Putting M2s in a common living room is not "doing it right" imo.


Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: srb on 29 Apr 2017, 05:09 pm
It's there a specific reason you don't use better cabling?

The Oxygen Free Copper version costs $9.00 more per 100 feet than the Copper Clad Aluminum?

There was one feature that caught my eye, though  -  "No Distortion: The plastic jacket around the speaker wire helps to deliver high-quality undistorted signals to and from all of your audio equipment."

I'm not one to spend a ton of money on cables ..... but I guess I'm a bit surprised also.   ;)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Apr 2017, 05:22 pm
Yup, I understand all that but still stick to my comments. M2 is also much wider dispersion than most wg speakers and for them to perform as intended will require a dedicated room. I'm not saying you can't get great results for music listening without that, but that's not really the point. JBL went to great lengths to make them measure darn close to perfect so they can be the best tools possible for production of audio in a studio setting. If you throw them in a common living room some of that will be lost. I'm not sure how that's even debatable as measurements will easily confirm it. That also doesn't mean that the perfect measurements are all for nothing, of course it helps as this isn't black or white. But considerable complexity has been added to the M2 system to accomplish it's goals and make it a great tool, I wouldn't understand buying a speaker like this and not having a perfect room for them, because that's the point, technical perfection. If you're going to do something do it right. Putting M2s in a common living room is not "doing it right" imo.
Yep, you don't get it but that's fine.  Enjoy! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Apr 2017, 05:23 pm
:o   I suppose it's good that you don't rely on others to validate your audio cred.  It's there a specific reason you don't use better cabling?
Great question!  I'm using this to get everything in place to see what lengths I'll ultimately need once everything is in it's final position after measurements.  Then I'll get the awesome DH Labs Q-10 Signature for my speakers.  They're already making some Air Matrix using the Crown Phoenix connectors. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 29 Apr 2017, 05:41 pm
Yep, you don't get it but that's fine.  Enjoy!

What I said is simply fact. I'm out, enjoy yourself!  :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 29 Apr 2017, 05:49 pm
Yup, I understand all that but still stick to my comments. M2 is also much wider dispersion than most wg speakers and for them to perform as intended will require a dedicated room. I'm not saying you can't get great results for music listening without that, but that's not really the point. JBL went to great lengths to make them measure darn close to perfect so they can be the best tools possible for production of audio in a studio setting. If you throw them in a common living room some of that will be lost. I'm not sure how that's even debatable as measurements will easily confirm it. That also doesn't mean that the perfect measurements are all for nothing, of course it helps as this isn't black or white. But considerable complexity has been added to the M2 system to accomplish it's goals and make it a great tool, I wouldn't understand buying a speaker like this and not having a perfect room for them, because that's the point, technical perfection. If you're going to do something do it right. Putting M2s in a common living room is not "doing it right" imo.

Help me understand a bit better as to where you are coming from.  Yes, the M2 does have a slightly wider horizontal dispersion than some other waveguides at 120 degrees.  Are you implying that for this reason a purpose built listening room should be used?

I think the argument should go back to something more polar plot related than anything else.  Without this sort of data your ability to assume what it may sound like in space is a complete crapshoot.  Why? Well, it has been proven many times over that we not only hear the direct sound but reflected sounds.  In the home environment we will likely be dealing with many reflections.  The more alike the indirect or reflections mimic that of the direct sound the better the sound field.  The only positive I see to a narrower dispersion pattern is that of reducing early reflections.  This part has been proven to be more of listener preference for added spaciousness than anything else. 

I would rather have a loudspeaker with known polar data than a speaker with no data in a built room.  I will have to do a few, if any, treatments to a room with good speakers.  I will never be able to fix a loudspeaker based problem with a room based fix.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 Apr 2017, 06:12 pm
Help me understand a bit better as to where you are coming from.  Yes, the M2 does have a slightly wider horizontal dispersion than some other waveguides at 120 degrees.  Are you implying that for this reason a purpose built listening room should be used?

....

I would rather have a loudspeaker with known polar data than a speaker with no data in a built room.  I will have to do a few, if any, treatments to a room with good speakers. I will never be able to fix a loudspeaker based problem with a room based fix.

Ding, ding, ding!

And the award goes to.... :thumb:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Nick77 on 29 Apr 2017, 06:19 pm
Great question!  I'm using this to get everything in place to see what lengths I'll ultimately need once everything is in it's final position after measurements.  Then I'll get the awesome DH Labs Q-10 Signature for my speakers.  They're already making some Air Matrix using the Crown Phoenix connectors.

Ahhh I suspected you were just trying to get a rise out of us.  :wink:

But it is a relief. Haha
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 29 Apr 2017, 06:40 pm
Help me understand a bit better as to where you are coming from.  Yes, the M2 does have a slightly wider horizontal dispersion than some other waveguides at 120 degrees.  Are you implying that for this reason a purpose built listening room should be used?

I think the argument should go back to something more polar plot related than anything else.  Without this sort of data your ability to assume what it may sound like in space is a complete crapshoot.  Why? Well, it has been proven many times over that we not only hear the direct sound but reflected sounds.  In the home environment we will likely be dealing with many reflections.  The more alike the indirect or reflections mimic that of the direct sound the better the sound field.  The only positive I see to a narrower dispersion pattern is that of reducing early reflections.  This part has been proven to be more of listener preference for added spaciousness than anything else. 

I would rather have a loudspeaker with known polar data than a speaker with no data in a built room.  I will have to do a few, if any, treatments to a room with good speakers.  I will never be able to fix a loudspeaker based problem with a room based fix.

The way I see it extraordinary lengths have been gone through by JBL to ensure the technical/measured performance of the M2 is as close to perfect as possible. I'd assume anyone interested in these speakers would want to preserve this performance potential as much as possible. The room has an effect on the sound whether you're talking CD or direct radiator type speakers with the direct radiators being effected much more due to their dispersion pattern/polars, but the thought that CD is immune to room effects is absolutely not true, it's just effected less vs a direct radiator. And yes, the M2's wider dispersion means the room has more of an effect... all else being equal the proportion of direct vs reflected sound will contain more reflected sound because of the wider dispersion, thus the room has more of an effect vs a narrower dispersion speaker.

I really have a hard time believing that there is any controversy that what might be the world's most perfectly measuring speaker would be most ideal in a dedicated room. And that some of the perfection might be lost in a non-ideal room. The thought that a dedicated room is completely unnecessary because it's a CD speaker seems kinda ridiculous, the M2 is not immune to the laws of physics. These are simple facts. I am also not disputing that the technical perfection isn't an asset in a non-ideal room, of course it is.

As proof I am sure you can find plenty of examples of M2s in dedicated rooms. Studios wouldn't spend the money on room acoustics if they didn't think it was an advantage.

I just don't think spending the extra cash for the M2 over the 4367 makes much sense unless you want/need the technical perfection the M2 offers, which is going to be partially lost in non-dedicated rooms. There's a lot of complexity and cost added to get the measurements perfect over the 4367, which is a much larger advantage in music/sound production studio than in a personal/home listening room, they are two different things that just happen to overlap. The technical perfection is more of a requirement for production where for listening for personal enjoyment it might not matter quite as much.

Finally, the Harman preference testing for dispersion is confounded by not taking into account listener acclimation. Acclimation is the reason why inexperienced audiophiles prefer their questionable system vs anything they hear at an audio show. We get used to hearing direct radiators and hear 1st reflections as "spaciousness" but without acclimation to a narrower dispersion pattern and allowing the brain to get used to the different presentation the preference testing is confounded and near useless.

I totally agree with your last sentence but we're not talking about speakers with flaws and no data, we're talking about the M2, which is exactly the opposite.



Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Kishore on 29 Apr 2017, 07:36 pm
He's retired from speaker building and is making stained glass art from what I understand.

 :nono: I believe that was a one of project- Earl has built 5 additional Summas since then.. let's not generalize :whip:  :lol:

.......I will never be able to fix a loudspeaker based problem with a room based fix.

I think ideal speaker is great but all this while relevant in isolation, does not make any sense to me since speaker-room interaction and your listening preferences will dictate or negate speaker differentiators- so I agree with both Dave and Joel here.  :)  When I spoke to Charles at length- besides M2, there is   708i/p which would be relevant based on your room/listening distance- such designers who do not sell as is but probe on what is relevant have earned my respect  :thumb:

Regards,
Kishore
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: brj on 29 Apr 2017, 08:20 pm
I think you guys are closer in your opinions than the thread swirl might make it appear.  As far as I know, you all believe in properly treated rooms and have made efforts to achieve that.  Given that even highly lauded professional acousticians differ on the definition of  a "perfect" room, I think that that concept has proven a distraction, but you all also realize that how you treat a room - and the amount of effort entailed - will vary with the radiation pattern of the speakers selected.

And just as importantly, all systems will always have a weakest link (which is the room more often than not), and one that will change with time as systems, preferences, and understanding evolve.  Having said that, rarely does anyone always pursue the weakest link in their system when making upgrades, often focusing on lessor effectors for the entirely valid reasons of cost, interest, spousal approval factor, knowledge, ability, available time, etc..  Having a pair of speakers that you know will essentially never be your weakest link just means that you can focus on improving those other elements instead as your system evolution continues.

In short, if my preferences and knowledge allow me to identify an end-of-game component, I'd never not pursue it just because my system has other weaker links, because I have every intention of eventually addressing those weaker links as well.  We live in a world of continuums and spectrums subject to an ever-changing array of constraints, and its easy to forget that when drilling down into details and following our latest fancies.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: witchdoctor on 30 Apr 2017, 12:37 am
Your using copper clad aluminum lamp cord on a 20k speaker.  :scratch:

That almost makes me cry, a travesty... :o

Please do 2 things with your state of the art M2

1) Place each speaker on a pair of Isoacoustic Stands the way Frank Fillipeti places his.
2) Find one of the fine cable vendors here on audiocircle to give you a 30 day audition of some bad ass speaker cables so you can at least do a comparison with that lamp cord crap from amazon.

FWIW I use mapleshade double helix speaker cable on my JBL 230's and they sing beautifully together.

http://mapleshadestore.com/feedback_doublehelixcables.php
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: rajacat on 30 Apr 2017, 12:54 am
 Maybe waveguides should be designed to fit the room. :idea: My listening room has rather odd dimensions. It has a very low ceiling but it's relatively wide and long (7'-9" x 15' x 35'). The waveguide is ~ 8" x 18" which is somewhat proportional to the front wall. If it was round or square it would have more of a problem with the low ceiling.

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157895)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: srb on 30 Apr 2017, 01:02 am
2) Find one of the fine cable vendors here on audiocircle to give you a 30 day audition of some bad ass speaker cables so you can at least do a comparison with that lamp cord crap from amazon.

If you read his post after showing off the lovely Amazon Basics speaker cable .....

I'm using this to get everything in place to see what lengths I'll ultimately need once everything is in it's final position after measurements.  Then I'll get the awesome DH Labs Q-10 Signature for my speakers.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 30 Apr 2017, 01:40 am
1) Place each speaker on a pair of Isoacoustic Stands the way Frank Fillipeti places his.

Sitting at a console is very different in terms of height.  When I was at JBL I asked them about the Iso stands..
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JDUBS on 30 Apr 2017, 01:57 am
Same drivers, yes.  Different crossover and waveguide.

Oh yes, that's right.

BUT, why bother with a good DAC if you're just going to convert it to digital and back again to analog?

-Jim
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 30 Apr 2017, 02:00 am
Oh yes, that's right.

BUT, why bother with a good DAC if you're just going to convert it to digital and back again to analog?

-Jim
You don't think that the quality of data going in has to do with what comes out?  I'm really asking your opinion. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: witchdoctor on 30 Apr 2017, 03:13 am
Sitting at a console is very different in terms of height.  When I was at JBL I asked them about the Iso stands..

You still need to compare for yourself, the stands can be returned
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: witchdoctor on 30 Apr 2017, 03:15 am
If you read his post after showing off the lovely Amazon Basics speaker cable .....

Whew
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: pis99 on 30 Apr 2017, 03:59 am
A good DAC does indeed affect the sound of the M2. Even though the Crown amps accept both digital and analog inputs, I find good analog input from a decent DAC really shine the M2. I have tried many DACs with M2---Mytek Manhattan, MP-D2, Exasound E28, ANK DAC5.1 etc. My preference always go to analog inputs to Crown itech amp which does not make sense for audio book with two A to D and D to A processes. One possible thing could be I always use HQplayer DSD256 to produce the analog output to crown amps. The crown amp digital input does not do DSD.



 


You don't think that the quality of data going in has to do with what comes out?  I'm really asking your opinion.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DS-21 on 30 Apr 2017, 04:23 am
Great question!  I'm using this to get everything in place to see what lengths I'll ultimately need once everything is in it's final position after measurements.  Then I'll get the awesome DH Labs Q-10 Signature for my speakers...

That's unfortunate, though admittedly I have no idea what makes a speaker cable "awesome." That's just not a word I'd use for bog standard commodity parts.

The one thing I would do with an M2 or any biamped speaker is use wire that looks different for HF and LF. Generally, I use "in wall" type cable containing red/black/green/white wires.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 30 Apr 2017, 12:11 pm
That's unfortunate, though admittedly I have no idea what makes a speaker cable "awesome." That's just not a word I'd use for bog standard commodity parts.

The one thing I would do with an M2 or any biamped speaker is use wire that looks different for HF and LF. Generally, I use "in wall" type cable containing red/black/green/white wires.
My "awesome" is that it's constructed well and just a no nonsense type of cable or company as they started in the pro world. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 30 Apr 2017, 01:11 pm
As proof I am sure you can find plenty of examples of M2s in dedicated rooms. Studios wouldn't spend the money on room acoustics if they didn't think it was an advantage.
JT and Goskers bought their M2s for studio work? Where was this stated?
By "dedicated" room, are you referring to a so called "treated" one, based on your own audio-visual preferences?

Finally, the Harman preference testing for dispersion is confounded by not taking into account listener acclimation.
Evidence please.
Dr Toole dedicated a chapter to human adaptation in his book, making your assertion highly questionable that Harman would be unaware.
However, if you can present evidence from rigorous controlled testing with statistically large groups that counter Harmans findings, I'd be very interested in reading. thanks.

We get used to hearing direct radiators and hear 1st reflections as "spaciousness" but without acclimation to a narrower dispersion pattern and allowing the brain to get used to the different presentation the preference testing is confounded and near useless.
Evidence for this asserted fact please.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 30 Apr 2017, 01:13 pm
My "awesome" is that it's constructed well and just a no nonsense type of cable or company as they started in the pro world.
The Amazon stuff is of poor physical construction then?
Btw, I couldn't find anything confirming EG was out of speaker biz. Joking perhaps?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 30 Apr 2017, 01:20 pm
The Amazon stuff is of poor physical construction then?
Btw, I couldn't find anything confirming EG was out of speaker biz. Joking perhaps?

AJ,

He's out: http://www.gedlee.com/Loudspeakers/Loudspeakers.aspx

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 30 Apr 2017, 01:24 pm
The Amazon stuff is of poor physical construction then?
I never said that.  The DH just full-fills my audiophile void and looks prettier.  That's all. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 30 Apr 2017, 01:30 pm
AJ,

He's out: http://www.gedlee.com/Loudspeakers/Loudspeakers.aspx

Best,
Anand.
Thanks Anand. Weird, just looked at site and didn't see that. Oh well, happens to all us old speaker builders eventually.  :)
I wish him the best.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 30 Apr 2017, 01:31 pm
The DH just full-fills my audiophile void and looks prettier.  That's all.
I'm 100% for that.
Btw, these are for listening pleasure, not "studio" work, etc, yes?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 30 Apr 2017, 01:36 pm
I'm 100% for that.
Btw, these are for listening pleasure, not "studio" work, etc, yes?
Yes, listening only and not for work. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: srb on 30 Apr 2017, 01:39 pm
The Amazon stuff is of poor physical construction then?

I will say yes for that particular offering.  Copper clad aluminum has rather poor conductivity compared to pure copper.

I use a generic CL2 in-wall 4-conductor cable constructed with 4 X 14AWG OFC conductors and PVC insulation at ~ $0.50/ft.

The DH Labs Q-10 Signature is more than just a pretty face (braided external jacket).  It is also a 4-conductor cable, but constructed with ultra-premium materials:  2 X 12AWG and 2 X 14AWG silver-coated CCC conductors (7ppm 02) and PTFE insulation.  It's fairly expensive at $22.50/ft., but I've seen audio people spend a lot more for lesser materials.

Steve
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 30 Apr 2017, 01:51 pm
Copper clad aluminum has rather poor conductivity compared to pure copper.
Which has been demonstrated to have what (real) audible effect on audio bandwidth systems?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JohnR on 30 Apr 2017, 02:24 pm
What speaker wire did JBL use in the demo? (I'm curious)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: rajacat on 30 Apr 2017, 02:25 pm
I will say yes for that particular offering.  Copper clad aluminum has rather poor conductivity compared to pure copper.
JPS Labs has been using copper clad aluminum for years.

http://www.jpslabs.com/speakercable.shtml

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 30 Apr 2017, 02:31 pm
What speaker wire did JBL use in the demo? (I'm curious)
Looked like bulk wire that they purchased down the street in LA at the local Blue or Orange depot.  Nothing fancy whatsoever.  Even all the cables were pro audio cables as one would expect.  It proves that great sound doesn't require fancy cables.  Go figure, it all starts with the design of the most important component.  Speaker. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 30 Apr 2017, 02:36 pm
I went through the pictures that I took and you can clearly see it's nothing special.   :green:   Notice the mic though?  Go figure.   


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161589)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 30 Apr 2017, 02:43 pm
You sure they weren't creating some depth ambiance with those inwalls?  :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 30 Apr 2017, 03:56 pm
JPS Labs has been using copper clad aluminum for years.

http://www.jpslabs.com/speakercable.shtml

JPS principal Joe Skubinsky told me that his proprietary Alumalloy conductor material is a homogenous alloy of several metals. Mostly copper, some aluminum, and other metals, but it is a red colored alloy. Some JPS products further plate the red Alumalloy with white metal, whether tin or aluminum idk, but there is red on the inside of each strand. I have not seen any JPS wire that is white metal interior with red plating like copper clad aluminum. In sound quality there is no comparison, but the cost difference is 3 orders of magnitude.  :lol:   

I have found that using 90x50 waveguide benefits the room acoustic. For example, ceiling reflection of upper mids causes those annoying flute and piano peak pains. Vertical dispersion control from a vertically narrow horn cures this as does ceiling treatment and a true D'Appolito array with controlled vertical lobing. Geddes' setup concept with 90 conical horns and axes crossing in front of listener minimizes sidewall reflections. So a horn can be useful for residential setups, regardless of how awful the room shape. 120 degrees seems a bit wide, but probably better covers the area behind the board for uniform tonal color.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: OzarkTom on 30 Apr 2017, 07:00 pm
This looks like a good buy. 12g Dueland speaker wire for $6 a foot times 2. I am going to order some for my Zellatons. Lots of great reviews out there.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/Duelund-DCA12GA-20awg-Tin-Plated-Stranded-CU-Wire_moreinfo.html#31544
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 1 May 2017, 02:36 pm
You still need to compare for yourself, the stands can be returned
It's not about trying it. It's a bit more scientific than that.

I'm familiar with them as they will be used under my Funk 21.0LX subs.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161651)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161652)

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: witchdoctor on 2 May 2017, 02:50 am
It's not about trying it. It's a bit more scientific than that.

I'm familiar with them as they will be used under my Funk 21.0LX subs.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161651)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161652)

Looking good, FYI

https://youtu.be/c5ptvPya7Mc
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 2 May 2017, 03:02 am
Looking good, FYI

I don't think you're understanding the issue.  He said it right...he put them on the stands to bring them up closer to his ear.  He sits at a console NOT a seated position like I do in my Ekornes chair.  Putting them on the stands will have them too high for my seated position. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 5 May 2017, 02:14 am
Let's get this thing back on track a bit.  My amp, the Crown DCi 8/600N finally arrived today.  Speakers are expected to ship early next week.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161845)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 5 May 2017, 01:16 pm
That's great news!  I got shipping confirmation of my M2's this morning too. Well, at least one of them.   :scratch:  :hyper:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 5 May 2017, 02:40 pm
Well shoot, I don't have any notice of shipment for any of my three ;(

Soon enough...
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 8 May 2017, 06:03 pm
Looks like 5/15 is my day for delivery.   :hyper:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 8 May 2017, 10:36 pm
Ha, when I was ~20 I worked for a stained glass studio for a couple years.

I think the 4367 has the potential to be real close to the M2 but it's not a set system so could vary a lot more. Many benefits of the M2 are not going to be realized outside of a dedicated room, most non-dedicated rooms trash the ruler flat fr and the precise WG is also of less benefit. The M2 is a tool for production of audio first and foremost.

First off, I was in Costa Rica the last two weeks and skimmed the thread to catch up, hopefully I didn't miss too many key points in the discussion.  Also, if you haven't been, you owe it to yourself to visit Costa Rica.  My favorite destination so far and I am fairly well traveled outside of Asia (which I plan to do this summer-ish).

I think a CD waveguide helps a non-perfect room more than a standard speaker.   I am 99% sure this jives with both Toole's and Geddes's theory.   The off axis reflection in *any* room is more consistent with the on axis info with a CD speaker and thus closer to a better realization of what is suppose to be, and I think the empirical evidence to date supports this.  If the studio room was messed up, you would also have the screw up in the realization, so that can't be dismissed.  I am a 100% believer in a CD speaker.   I have owned many of both and visited a lot of high end rooms of both.   To me it is an argument that needs no further argument, but I can understand if others don't agree for whatever rationale.   For me it was long term listening and ownership that proved it to me.   * too narrow, as in the Danley's SM60F, made for less room effect but funny presentation on width/depth that was less than perfect in the long run but less of a compromise as many speakers I've heard to date. 



Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 9 May 2017, 12:10 am
First off, I was in Costa Rica the last two weeks and skimmed the thread to catch up, hopefully I didn't miss too many key points in the discussion.  Also, if you haven't been, you owe it to yourself to visit Costa Rica.  My favorite destination so far and I am fairly well traveled outside of Asia (which I plan to do this summer-ish).

I think a CD waveguide helps a non-perfect room more than a standard speaker.   I am 99% sure this jives with both Toole's and Geddes's theory.   The off axis reflection in *any* room is more consistent with the on axis info with a CD speaker and thus closer to a better realization of what is suppose to be, and I think the empirical evidence to date supports this.  If the studio room was messed up, you would also have the screw up in the realization, so that can't be dismissed.  I am a 100% believer in a CD speaker.   I have owned many of both and visited a lot of high end rooms of both.   To me it is an argument that needs no further argument, but I can understand if others don't agree for whatever rationale.   For me it was long term listening and ownership that proved it to me.   * too narrow, as in the Danley's SM60F, made for less room effect but funny presentation on width/depth that was less than perfect in the long run but less of a compromise as many speakers I've heard to date.

I agree... I have no idea where all this misunderstanding is coming from and I apologize about that... But I still hold the opinion that a speaker like the M2 is a tool and it's a less effective tool without a dedicated room. I'll stop there as I don't want to go 'round in circles.  :lol:





Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 May 2017, 12:16 am
I agree... I have no idea where all this misunderstanding is coming from and I apologize about that... But I still hold the opinion that a speaker like the M2 is a tool and it's a less effective tool without a dedicated room. I'll stop there as I don't want to go 'round in circles.  :lol:
This statement makes zero sense though.  So basically you're saying that the most honest speaker that doesn't color the sound is a tool? 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 9 May 2017, 12:25 am
This statement makes zero sense though.  So basically you're saying that the most honest speaker that doesn't color the sound is a tool?

Yes, it's designed so studios can produce audio with great accuracy, a tool. IMO that's the point of the M2, it's perfect, if you want to retain that you need a dedicated room. I do realize it'll still be better than a regular cone 'n' dome speaker as far as room interaction.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 May 2017, 12:56 am
Yes, it's designed so studios can produce audio with great accuracy, a tool. IMO that's the point of the M2, it's perfect, if you want to retain that you need a dedicated room. I do realize it'll still be better than a regular cone 'n' dome speaker as far as room interaction.
So you prefer to listen to something that's colored and not accurate then.  Got it.  That says a lot about your preferences.   :o
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 9 May 2017, 01:08 am
I too fail to understand the logic and reasoning.  It almost sounds like you suggesting that once you leave idealism you should go far from it. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 9 May 2017, 01:12 am
So you prefer to listen to something that's colored and not accurate then.  Got it.  That says a lot about your preferences.   :o

Dude, please. That's ridiculous. At this point I could claim that you have no idea that a speaker's performance is affected by the room it's in, which is my entire point... but whatever, you're impossible. Again, I'm out.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 9 May 2017, 01:15 am
I too fail to understand the logic and reasoning.  It almost sounds like you suggesting that once you leave idealism you should go far from it.

I'm NOT suggesting that. Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 9 May 2017, 01:19 am
I am not really trying to argue, but what I was saying is I don't get your rationale.   It isn't really irony for putting a better measuring speaker with better polars in a less than perfect room over an inferior speaker in same less than perfect room.  Do you get my rationale?

Edit:  I don't really care about much outside of the fact that I like what I am listening to more than anytime and any system that I've personally had/heard.    So the rest is theoretical and only entertainment for me at this point, not to be dismissive.   I just like what I have I guess, which I couldn't ever really say truly before.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 May 2017, 01:20 am
Dude, please. That's ridiculous. At this point I could claim that you have no idea that a speaker's performance is affected by the room it's in, which is my entire point... but whatever, you're impossible. Again, I'm out.
No you can't.  Do you know how to use a microphone and REW?  That shit doesn't lie, you might want to try it.  Further, you're totally missing the point that a real CD speaker performs better in any room than your typical speaker. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 9 May 2017, 01:26 am
No you can't.  Do you know how to use a microphone and REW?  That shit doesn't lie, you might want to try it.  Further, you're totally missing the point that a real CD speaker performs better in any room than your typical speaker.

Do you even lift, bro?  This has gotten ridiculous... you must be a big hit at parties.  :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 May 2017, 01:28 am
Do you even lift, bro?  This has gotten ridiculous... you must be a big hit at parties.  :lol:
So your way of solving this is to throw an insult?  Gotcha.  Certainly shows how professional you are.   :duh:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DaveC113 on 9 May 2017, 02:02 am
So your way of solving this is to throw an insult?  Gotcha.  Certainly shows how professional you are.   :duh:

You've been condescending and insulting to me the entire time. Take a hint from literally everyone else in the thread that understands how to communicate without being condescending and insulting. There's nothing to "solve". Again, I'm out and I actually mean it this time.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 May 2017, 02:04 am
You've been condescending and insulting to me the entire time. Take a hint from literally everyone else in the thread that understands how to communicate without being condescending and insulting. There's nothing to "solve". Again, I'm out and I actually mean it this time.
Great!   :wave:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: lowtech on 9 May 2017, 04:47 am
Is Crown is using their own switching topology in their amps?  The marketing blurb is somewhat vague.

The latest technology based on Crown's proprietary and patented DriveCore™ technology, these amplifiers are the next generation of PWM technology using cutting edge Class D amplifier topologies.

I'm also curious how good the digital inputs are.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Wind Chaser on 9 May 2017, 06:03 am
Good questions Lowtech.

I've owned active speakers by Quad, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't think they were remarkable in some ways. However speakers with built in amps are what they are, which in essence is a dead-end as far as upgrading goes. They’d be a whole lot more appealing if it were possible to upgrade the amps and choose whatever you want.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Letitroll98 on 9 May 2017, 09:26 am
Do you even lift, bro?  This has gotten ridiculous... you must be a big hit at parties.  :lol:

So your way of solving this is to throw an insult?  Gotcha.  Certainly shows how professional you are.   :duh:

Sorry I didn't catch this earlier, the childish stuff is now over, right?  Please don't answer, I'll assume we're acting like adults from now on.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 9 May 2017, 11:04 am
Good questions Lowtech.

I've owned active speakers by Quad, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't think they were remarkable in some ways. However speakers with built in amps are what they are, which in essence is a dead-end as far as upgrading goes. They’d be a whole lot more appealing if it were possible to upgrade the amps and choose whatever you want.

You can get the M2's with just the London BSS Processor which is the DSP module. Then it will be up to you to get 4 channels of amplification.

But the Crown 'coup de grace' is for those that want simplicity and to get off the audiophile merry go round of tweaking & upgrading. It's a personal choice.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 May 2017, 12:31 pm
You can get the M2's with just the London BSS Processor which is the DSP module. Then it will be up to you to get 4 channels of amplification.

But the Crown 'coup de grace' is for those that want simplicity and to get off the audiophile merry go round of tweaking & upgrading. It's a personal choice.

Best,
Anand.
That's true.  Also, after speaking with the JBL guys face to face there wasn't any desire or need to go with my own amps.   :D
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: rabbit on 9 May 2017, 02:36 pm
its not hard to clone the M2. minidsp 2x4HD ($205 including volume and dac) duplicates the transfer function using a combination of FIR and IIR. files are availible at audioheritage.org. even the $80 2x4 can do it close enough.

http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-m2-horn-lens-5025594/
the D2 driver has become unavailible, but shows up on ebay from time to time.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 9 May 2017, 03:11 pm
Rabbit,  this is true and some have done it.   I didn't want to go the DIY route and I got the M2s on 'sale' because it was the end of the fiscal year for JBL, so they discounted their stock at the time.   I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.    But from what I've read the D2 driver can be fragile, so keep that in mind which looking for used drivers on the bay. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 9 May 2017, 03:13 pm
Going back to putting good speakers in a less than perfect room.  Here is a post describing Toole's own room and rationale.  It is definitely not what I'd consider the audiophile standard for dedicated rooms. 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1454077-jbl-m2-master-reference-monitor-88.html#post52484753

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 9 May 2017, 03:36 pm
It is definitely not what I'd consider the audiophile standard for dedicated rooms. 
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1454077-jbl-m2-master-reference-monitor-88.html#post52484753
Yes, that looks like a sane persons living room.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 May 2017, 05:40 pm
Rabbit,  this is true and some have done it.   I didn't want to go the DIY route and I got the M2s on 'sale' because it was the end of the fiscal year for JBL, so they discounted their stock at the time.   I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.    But from what I've read the D2 driver can be fragile, so keep that in mind which looking for used drivers on the bay.
Also should point out that many that are posted are actually fakes...
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: rabbit on 9 May 2017, 06:00 pm
fake tweeters? i find that hard to believe, if so its quite an achievement in itself. you would need a lot of tooling, not to mention the motivation for doing so (demand).
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 May 2017, 06:10 pm
fake tweeters? i find that hard to believe, if so its quite an achievement in itself. you would need a lot of tooling, not to mention the motivation for doing so (demand).
Yep.  I'll stick with my new from JBL M2's though and know that I have authentic drivers as intended.   :green:  Going to JBL is an eye (and ear) opening experience and there was a lot talked about.   8)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: andy_c on 10 May 2017, 03:37 am
Just in case someone hasn't seen it, here's a link to a video by Toole in which he discusses the "spinorama" anechoic measurements and their relationship to loudspeaker subjective evaluation.  The link starts the video at 21:35, which is the beginning of that aspect of a broader discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM&feature=youtu.be&t=21m35s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM&feature=youtu.be&t=21m35s)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 10 May 2017, 01:16 pm
Just in case someone hasn't seen it, here's a link to a video by Toole in which he discusses the "spinorama" anechoic measurements and their relationship to loudspeaker subjective evaluation.  The link starts the video at 21:35, which is the beginning of that aspect of a broader discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM&feature=youtu.be&t=21m35s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM&feature=youtu.be&t=21m35s)
Yes, that's a good video for all to watch.  Thanks for the link!   :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: fredgarvin on 11 May 2017, 03:31 pm
You've been condescending and insulting to me the entire time. Take a hint from literally everyone else in the thread that understands how to communicate without being condescending and insulting. There's nothing to "solve". Again, I'm out and I actually mean it this time.

Every once in awhile I think a like button would be nice.  :D
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 11 May 2017, 04:40 pm
Every once in awhile I think a like button would be nice.  :D
Even better you get to write your thoughts. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 11 May 2017, 04:54 pm
Freight company called and my M2's get delivered tomorrow.   8)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: dflee on 11 May 2017, 05:07 pm
We know what your gonna be doin all weekend.
Being pro series, do they require any kind of break in?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 11 May 2017, 05:33 pm
We know what your gonna be doin all weekend.
Being pro series, do they require any kind of break in?
Actually I'm pretty busy this weekend at a fundraiser (St. Judes) so I doubt I'll get to do much other than unbox them.  Break-in?  Dunno.  I'm sure me playing them non-stop will mitigate the need to think about it though.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 11 May 2017, 07:46 pm
I win?!  Unfortunately, I won't get my Anthem AVM60 until next week.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162128)

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 11 May 2017, 07:50 pm
I win?!  Unfortunately, I won't get my Anthem AVM60 until next week.

I'm sure they won't work if they're on their sides  :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 11 May 2017, 08:55 pm
I win?!  Unfortunately, I won't get my Anthem AVM60 until next week.
Yes, you win, you and JBL are Making Audio Great Again.   ;)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: pslate on 11 May 2017, 10:14 pm
I have been thinking a lot about the JBL 7 series. Is the logical conclusion that audiophiles without an m2 budget live in the 7 ecosystem?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 11 May 2017, 10:16 pm
I have been thinking a lot about the JBL 7 series. Is the logical conclusion that audiophiles without an m2 budget live in the 7 ecosystem?
Yes, they're VERY good.  I wouldn't hesitate one bit on the 7 series at all. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 11 May 2017, 10:40 pm
Time for a trip to the basement in a bit.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162132)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 11 May 2017, 10:43 pm
I hope you got some help! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 11 May 2017, 11:09 pm
Gravity my man.  Going down the stairs is the easy part.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 11 May 2017, 11:12 pm
Gravity my man.  Going down the stairs is the easy part.
Speaker is still 129 lbs. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 11 May 2017, 11:14 pm
I'll put a pillow at the bottom this time then.

Seriously though, I have help.  No way am I risking damage on something like this.  These are too cumbersome to throw around yourself.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 11 May 2017, 11:19 pm
I'll put a pillow at the bottom this time then.

Seriously though, I have help.  No way am I risking damage on something like this.  These are too cumbersome to throw around yourself.
Makes sense to me.  Be careful and post some pics when they're in place.  Exciting!  I've sent mine to someone else...I don't want to move mine.   :(
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 12 May 2017, 12:05 am
Time for a trip to the basement in a bit.
I hope you got some help!
Gravity my man.  Going down the stairs is the easy part.
Speaker is still 129 lbs.


Wait for it...


Do you even lift, bro?

Quoted for relevance.  :green: :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 12 May 2017, 12:56 am
Room is torn apart right now but all are in their rough positions. 


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162135)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162136)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 12 May 2017, 01:00 am
Oooh la la!!  :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 12 May 2017, 01:05 am
Looks good, I bet you are quite excited
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 12 May 2017, 01:15 am
I'll just have to sit in silence until my pre/pro arrives.  First world problems.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 12 May 2017, 01:22 am
lol.   I am cranking mine (Immortal's At the Heart of Winter) in your honor! :rock:   

P.S.  one of the better and more accessible black metal albums (non-satanic too)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 12 May 2017, 01:25 am
(being marginally more constructive this time...  :wink:)

That does look impressive!  I don't know if I missed it earlier in the thread, but is the room big enough that you are planning on another pair of M2 for the back channels as well?

Question to you that are running these (or some other) active speaker with some sort of amplification setup that isn't plate amps built into the speakers: do you all have a wiring closet somewhere outside of the room to rack mount the amps, processors, etc. needed to make this all work?  I keep reading about pro amps and fans that sound like jet engines, and I just wonder (being someone in a small room that has to house electronics in room with the speaker setup) if all that sought after low level listening goodness found in these kinds of high efficiency speakers ends up getting lost with a rise in the ambient noise floor in the room due to the gear?  Is this an instance where treating the room to be more on the dead side is the solution to bringing this challenge back to par?

Slightly related tangent (JBL 7-series, maybe the M2 as well): if it seems based on recent threads around there that EQ above 130Hz-ish is more harm than good, does one really need the DSP processing offered as part of the package deal for these speakers?  Is there some FR nastiness inherent in the speaker design that the decision was made by the designers that HAS to be processed out to make the system work, or do the speakers work well enough with just (for the 7-series for example) the single wire amplification config (using a (minimal?) passive crossover built in to the cabinets) to a standard amp without DSP?

Slightly aside, after reading a bit about these speakers, I wonder how Rich's HAL DSP unit with the fancy DACs in it would compare (programmed comparably) to the Crown or BSS setup.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 12 May 2017, 02:23 am
(being marginally more constructive this time...  :wink:)

That does look impressive!  I don't know if I missed it earlier in the thread, but is the room big enough that you are planning on another pair of M2 for the back channels as well?

I have 8 305P on hand going to surround duties for a full Atmos setup.

Question to you that are running these (or some other) active speaker with some sort of amplification setup that isn't plate amps built into the speakers: do you all have a wiring closet somewhere outside of the room to rack mount the amps, processors, etc. needed to make this all work?  I keep reading about pro amps and fans that sound like jet engines, and I just wonder (being someone in a small room that has to house electronics in room with the speaker setup) if all that sought after low level listening goodness found in these kinds of high efficiency speakers ends up getting lost with a rise in the ambient noise floor in the room due to the gear?  Is this an instance where treating the room to be more on the dead side is the solution to bringing this challenge back to par?

The pro amps do have fans.  The DCiN variants that we all have are not uber loud but still not silent.  My amp is located next to the center channel right now.  I will be building a quiet box of some sort to cover this as I would like to keep this piece in the front of the room.

Slightly related tangent (JBL 7-series, maybe the M2 as well): if it seems based on recent threads around there that EQ above 130Hz-ish is more harm than good, does one really need the DSP processing offered as part of the package deal for these speakers?  Is there some FR nastiness inherent in the speaker design that the decision was made by the designers that HAS to be processed out to make the system work, or do the speakers work well enough with just (for the 7-series for example) the single wire amplification config (using a (minimal?) passive crossover built in to the cabinets) to a standard amp without DSP?

Passive is not an option with the M2. You are correct that the current data says to leave the EQ above he Schroeder frequency largely alone.  There plenty of options out there if one wishes to find their own way to a DIY M2.  I just don't really care to get into them here. I was aware of the choices and decided to just go with the real deal.

Slightly aside, after reading a bit about these speakers, I wonder how Rich's HAL DSP unit with the fancy DACs in it would compare (programmed comparably) to the Crown or BSS setup.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 12 May 2017, 02:29 am
I was just watching a TV show about orchids, called "Plants Behaving Badly." The shapely M2 horns remind me of the orchid flowers. Huge erotic black flowers, with sonic nectar in the center.  :drool:   :D
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 12 May 2017, 02:50 am
I live in an apartment building.  I don't own (my primary habitat that is, I own other) so I can't do permanent installs.  I have a free standing moveable rack with three DCi/N amps in it and it isn't measurable above the normal white noise of living downtown in an apartment building.   But apartment living in downtown cities is louder than 'burbs living.   The I-tech amps though are meant to be leaf blowers.

No one who has demo'd my system has been able to hear the amps with the rack door closed.   I think I have had 6 guys now come over for a listen.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 12 May 2017, 03:37 am
Slightly aside, after reading a bit about these speakers, I wonder how Rich's HAL DSP unit with the fancy DACs in it would compare (programmed comparably) to the Crown or BSS setup.

The JBL amps use FIR processing for linear phase XO and EQ filtering. Even the 708P has FIR dsp! The old version of HALs processor was IIR. I'm not sure if the new version can do FIR filters or not. 708P must use pretty fast processor to do 2 xos and 8 PEQs in FIR with the very low latency needed to monitor live sound.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 12 May 2017, 04:11 am
As I understand it most of the main peq functions are IIR with only a few FIR filters (can't recall if the xo is part of this), but that was for the M2, not sure what all the 708P has. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 12 May 2017, 11:56 am
Looks great!   :drool:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: rabbit on 12 May 2017, 12:14 pm
from what iv read the M2 uses minimum phase crossovers, which is why even a $80 minidsp can do it.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 12 May 2017, 12:21 pm
from what iv read the M2 uses minimum phase crossovers, which is why even a $80 minidsp can do it.
Too bad the anechoic will only cost $300k to get the crossover dialed in right like the Crown.   :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: rabbit on 12 May 2017, 12:30 pm
regular 2x4 has a few minor deviations, but the HD Version should do a perfect copy.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 12 May 2017, 12:30 pm
regular 2x4 has a few minor deviations, but the HD Version does a perfect copy.
OK, go for it then!  I'll use the Crown. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: rabbit on 12 May 2017, 12:39 pm
clearly i was referring to the post above about the complexity of the crossover, not whether you should use the Crown or not.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 12 May 2017, 01:30 pm
I live in an apartment building.  I don't own (my primary habitat that is, I own other) so I can't do permanent installs.  I have a free standing moveable rack with three DCi/N amps in it and it isn't measurable above the normal white noise of living downtown in an apartment building.   But apartment living in downtown cities is louder than 'burbs living.   The I-tech amps though are meant to be leaf blowers.

No one who has demo'd my system has been able to hear the amps with the rack door closed.   I think I have had 6 guys now come over for a listen.
What rack are you using?  MA? 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 12 May 2017, 02:37 pm
As I understand it most of the main peq functions are IIR with only a few FIR filters (can't recall if the xo is part of this), but that was for the M2, not sure what all the 708P has.

from what iv read the M2 uses minimum phase crossovers, which is why even a $80 minidsp can do it.

Oh well...  :(

I'm not surprised. I heard about the FIR dsp on yootoob vid of a JBL marketing guy at NAMM. 2 crossover filters at 1700Hz are a lot easier than several LF PEQs.
Thanks Josh and rabbit
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 12 May 2017, 07:16 pm
This is the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_zbiDyD_nY) that claims 708P has "192kHz FIR filtering."  I asked my Sweetwater rep to confirm it's IIR.

Looks like FIR is in iTech amps and BSS processor. Maybe why standard $20k M2 package comes with iTech5000.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 12 May 2017, 09:03 pm
Where are your M2's, jwtrace? You must be setting them up.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 12 May 2017, 11:17 pm
They are playing music!


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162205)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 12 May 2017, 11:36 pm
The mic and REW are standing by though.  Going to chill out first as I've got a crazy busy weekend ahead.  Next I need to rearrange my equipment rack (swap them out) to prepare for the (2) Funk Audio 21.0LX subs.  Measure cable lengths and get the new speaker cables ordered too.  Then I'll start the measuring process but sounding incredible already and it will only get better.   8)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 13 May 2017, 01:21 am
Congrats Jason! 

(In honor of mother's day,) "Don't forget to eat and sleep."   :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 13 May 2017, 01:32 am
The mic and REW are standing by though.  Going to chill out first as I've got a crazy busy weekend ahead.  Next I need to rearrange my equipment rack (swap them out) to prepare for the (2) Funk Audio 21.0LX subs.  Measure cable lengths and get the new speaker cables ordered too.  Then I'll start the measuring process but sounding incredible already and it will only get better.   8)

Glad to see everything is firing.  I have confirmation that my last needed component is shipping on Monday.  I hope to have a smile on my face sometime late next week.

Enjoy!!!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 13 May 2017, 02:17 am
The mic and REW are standing by though.  Going to chill out first as I've got a crazy busy weekend ahead.  Next I need to rearrange my equipment rack (swap them out) to prepare for the (2) Funk Audio 21.0LX subs.  Measure cable lengths and get the new speaker cables ordered too.  Then I'll start the measuring process but sounding incredible already and it will only get better.   8)

We are going to need pics. Are those Funks going to be able to keep up?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 13 May 2017, 02:31 am

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162213)


Keep up?  I don't understand. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 13 May 2017, 02:36 am
The JBL's are a pinnacle of articulation, subwoofers are not as frequently refereed as thus.

Those don't look as big as I think they actually are. You definitely could use some bigger speaker wire!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 13 May 2017, 03:04 am
The JBL's are a pinnacle of articulation, subwoofers are not as frequently refereed as thus.

Those don't look as big as I think they actually are. You definitely could use some bigger speaker wire!
They're actually quite small.  Yeah I don't buy the whole "fast" or "slow" sub thing. Once you get it it's all clear but hard to covey in writing. You really need to hear it and see the measurements to realize it.  Seriously.

Speaker wire is coming, no worries. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 13 May 2017, 04:23 am
Yeah I don't buy the whole "fast" or "slow" sub thing.

Interesting to read you in particular say that, considering your long-standing position on objective differences and measures as a priority in evaluating potential equipment choices.

Maybe (I hope!) your new M2 will give you reason to pursue this further, as a matter of clear necessity in continuing to improve your system.  Considering the woofers in the M2 have to play up as high as they do, I would likely put them categorically in the fast camp out of functional necessity (and probably expertly so, considering they themselves have to keep up with a finely tuned horn loaded compression driver). 

As a hobbyist, I think that although it may be a sad day for your wallet, it will be an exciting one to have uncovered a new opportunity for increased performance of the system when the overhang of notes played by the subs (no matter how even and controlled throughout the room those notes are by way of bass management techniques - driver cones not stopping are still driver cones not stopping, even if they are doing so evenly) are noticeable enough compared to the notes coming from the mains to make it both obvious and (as a hobbyist) frustrating enough to make another system upgrade a necessity.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 13 May 2017, 04:30 am
Has anyone who has heard these JBL speakers (M2 or 7-series) also heard a speaker using a BMS compression driver?  I read that the JBL drivers are using a non-metal diaphragm material which reminded me of BMS (different specific materials, and clearly different diaphragm geometries, for sure, but still similar enough to have caught my attention).  I really liked the sound from the BMS drivers I've heard in a few different speaker designs; I would call them having immediacy and presence, but not quite in so forward in presentation as some of the metal diaphragm compression driver speakers I've heard.  I wonder if the JBL driver gives a similar presentation?

(spoken as someone thinking out loud about how to get all the large-format compression/horn goodness he has heard from something that could work in a room plainly far too small for the above type of speaker...)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: rabbit on 13 May 2017, 11:01 am
while not proven there is alot to suggest the D2 is made by BMS.
others have come from there.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?31125-2408H-vs-2408H-1-differences&s=f7e6998766a83cae84e31bc7e72f0ba2&p=313763&viewfull=1#post313763
"The 2408H takes its roots in the 2407H which was made by BMS (it really is a rebadged 4540nd) for JBL..."

iv seen a couple cloners highly recommend 2450sl with berylium cones over the D2
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifisentralen.no%2Fforumet%2Fdiy-og-utvikling-ha-yttalere-forsterkere-etc%2F74073-rai-rai-81.html%23post2272747&edit-text=
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 13 May 2017, 11:16 am
while not proven there is alot to suggest the D2 is made by BMS.
others have come from there.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?31125-2408H-vs-2408H-1-differences&s=f7e6998766a83cae84e31bc7e72f0ba2&p=313763&viewfull=1#post313763
"The 2408H takes its roots in the 2407H which was made by BMS (it really is a rebadged 4540nd) for JBL..."

iv seen a couple cloners highly recommend 2450sl with berylium cones over the D2
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifisentralen.no%2Fforumet%2Fdiy-og-utvikling-ha-yttalere-forsterkere-etc%2F74073-rai-rai-81.html%23post2272747&edit-text=

Rabbit,

Can you please leave things about a M2 clone or modification out of this?  Yes, there is plenty of this information available.  All one has to do is search.

The development, inner workings and reasons for choosing the D2 driver were discussed during our visit to Harman.  Don't think that the other drivers utilizing exotic materials weren't an option.  The D2 is a different animal altogether because of the annular diaphragm.  This allows the using of a better diaphragm geometry which is able to move the breakup much higher.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: rabbit on 13 May 2017, 11:23 am
what are you going on about?
he asked about alternatives and BMS so i mentioned the connection JBL-BMS and a superior option driver. D2 is built to a Budget, and nowhere near the 2450sl-bl according to atleast two modders. wanting to believe the D2 is the best thing in th world doesnt make it so.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 13 May 2017, 11:43 am
what are you going on about?
he asked about alternatives and BMS so i mentioned the connection JBL-BMS and a superior option driver. D2 is built to a Budget, and nowhere near the 2450sl-bl according to atleast two modders. wanting to believe the D2 is the best thing in th world doesnt make it so.

I don't believe I have said anything about the D2 being the best thing ever.  Everything is built to a price point.  Just because a couple of modders changed out the compression drivers with different units doesn't necessarily make it an improvement.  Doing this just makes it a change and an unknown one without another set of complete measurements and subjective testing.

I would rather this thread not get pulled off by modified and DIY efforts to change and 'improve' the design.  If people want to consider those options then that info is already avaialable elsewhere. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Nick77 on 13 May 2017, 12:59 pm
Curious what JBL says about breakin if any? Are you gonna give them a few days to settle in before measure?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 13 May 2017, 01:14 pm
Curious what JBL says about breakin if any?
Didn't that go out in the 80's?? I remember guys spinning on their heads and stuff. Still around?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 13 May 2017, 01:23 pm
Curious what JBL says about breakin if any? Are you gonna give them a few days to settle in before measure?
I see nothing in the manual  (https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/M2_OwnersManual_RevA.pdf)about that but I'm going to let them play 1,000 hrs until I listen to them.   :P
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 13 May 2017, 01:26 pm
Interesting to read you in particular say that, considering your long-standing position on objective differences and measures as a priority in evaluating potential equipment choices.

Maybe (I hope!) your new M2 will give you reason to pursue this further, as a matter of clear necessity in continuing to improve your system.  Considering the woofers in the M2 have to play up as high as they do, I would likely put them categorically in the fast camp out of functional necessity (and probably expertly so, considering they themselves have to keep up with a finely tuned horn loaded compression driver). 

As a hobbyist, I think that although it may be a sad day for your wallet, it will be an exciting one to have uncovered a new opportunity for increased performance of the system when the overhang of notes played by the subs (no matter how even and controlled throughout the room those notes are by way of bass management techniques - driver cones not stopping are still driver cones not stopping, even if they are doing so evenly) are noticeable enough compared to the notes coming from the mains to make it both obvious and (as a hobbyist) frustrating enough to make another system upgrade a necessity.
You can't really measure "fast" or "slow" subs.  If you haven't had the pleasure of hearing a multiple sub setup you can't imagine what I mean.  The measurements of the room don't lie.  It's either right or not and the speed of the driver isn't really something that you see. 


If you want to see sub driver measurements that matter check out http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=home  AC member "Poseidonsvoice" turned me onto the site and spent quite a bit of time with me explaining it all.  I'm sure he will see this and chime in. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: zybar on 13 May 2017, 02:04 pm
I see nothing in the manual  (https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/M2_OwnersManual_RevA.pdf)about that but I'm going to let them play 1,000 hrs until I listen to them.   :P

1000 hours?  As in 41+ days playing 24 hrs a day?

Seems quite excessive....

George
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 13 May 2017, 02:12 pm
I see nothing in the manual  (https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/M2_OwnersManual_RevA.pdf)about that but I'm going to let them play 1,000 hrs until I listen to them.   :P
Oh that breakin. Yes, I also recommend 1000 hrs minimum on my speakers as well.
The money back return period is 999 hrs.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: macrojack on 13 May 2017, 02:17 pm
1000 hours?  As in 41+ days playing 24 hrs a day?

Seems quite excessive....

George
Not excessive, George. Thorough is a better way to characterize it. Jason never replaces anything before he completes break-in. An hour after that he is selling. Doesn't like to get too attached.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 13 May 2017, 02:25 pm
Oh that breakin. Yes, I also recommend 1000 hrs minimum on my speakers as well.
The money back return period is 999 hrs.
:lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 13 May 2017, 02:37 pm
I'll post it here by the off chance that someone does buy the DCi and M2 combo.  The M2's are bi-wired and there's a lot going on with this setup in terms of wires.  It would be really easy to swap a wire and put it in the wrong place and either have a big oops or wonder what the heck is going on with the sound.  To mitigate this I have put labels on my DCi from the get-go while waiting for my M2's to make it really easy not only now but down the road when time goes by and you no longer remember.  Seems like an obvious thing but perhaps not.  Just sharing my journey should you embark on it too.   :D


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162236)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 13 May 2017, 02:37 pm
The D2 is a different animal altogether because of the annular diaphragm.  This allows the using of a better diaphragm geometry which is able to move the breakup much higher.

This, along with the choice if materials used in the D2, and how that appears roughly similar to drivers made by BMS (which I HAVE heard) is exactly why I asked for an opinion from anyone who has heard both; are they in a similar "family" of sound, and how does that different geometry set the D2 apart in listening.

I would rather this thread not get pulled off by modified and DIY efforts to change and 'improve' the design.  If people want to consider those options then that info is already available elsewhere.

I'm sorry if a few of my questions came off this way.  I personally am in no position to DIY anything (or anything of any significant quality anyway), so my interest is in comparing off the shelf complete products.  Because right now I don't see the opportunity to go to an audio show or JBL directly in the near future, I'm relying on the kindness of others (and a collective of opinions) to decide whether the adventure is close enough to my general preferences to warrant putting some money down and giving it all a shot. 

As I don't use a pro-style setup in my home right now, a bit more has to change than just swapping out a pair of speakers if I were to give this sort of thing a shot (Windows computer, network infrastructure in room, power outlets depending on powered or non-powered cabinets, maybe a DAC change...)

while not proven there is alot to suggest the D2 is made by BMS.
others have come from there.

rabbit, thanks for that, but I guess my question wasn't so much where the D2 driver was made relative to BMS, but rather how does it SOUND compared to a comparable model BMS compression driver.  It looks to me like the two walk different paths in a similar enough direction that I'm trying to get a feel for what the D2 sounds like without the luxury of being able to jump in a car or plane and hear one myself.  I guess I'm just trying to get at least a rough point of reference.

Thanks!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 13 May 2017, 03:16 pm
Sorry that I'll take this a little out of order.

If you haven't had the pleasure of hearing a multiple sub setup you can't imagine what I mean.
Completely aside from show conditions, I have, in my own room, for an extended period of time, with multiple configurations of subs, measurements and all. (:wink:).
Quote
You can't really measure "fast" or "slow" subs.
Without straying too far off topic, I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.  When I interpret subs as "fast" or "slow" in a measured sense, I'm talking fundamentally about driver cone motion as a function of producing (or not producing) sound; acceleration from rest to wave launch and acceleration the other way from (intended) sound output to rest.  On a completely different front, add to that possible port resonances, horn colorations, backwave output through the cone, and so on contributing to "unwanted" sounds being generated collectively perceptionally "slowing" or muddying the sound output from any given sub...
Quote
The measurements of the room don't lie.  It's either right or not...
Agreed, but maybe my thoughts on "fast" or "slow" subs regarding what I posted earlier were in reference to the subs themselves individually rather than a summation of in-room measurements.  Improve the pieces to improve the whole, kind of thing?  Also, maybe picking nits (but what really in audio at this level isn't), but "even", "consistent", and "right" can often be very different things.
Quote
... and the speed of the driver isn't really something that you see.
Physically seen while watching the sub while playing relevant to the changes in sound differentiating a "fast" or "slow" sub for the purposes of my thoughts as posted on the matter? Assuming at least a baseline of quality in a sub being questioned, maybe or maybe not.  Seen in a measurement? Sure.  At the extremes (say, comparing the best-of-the-best with the very good with the not-so-great) not only seen but heard in room.
Quote
If you want to see sub driver measurements that matter check out http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=home  AC member "Poseidonsvoice" turned me onto the site and spent quite a bit of time with me explaining it all.  I'm sure he will see this and chime in.
Thanks; I've been there reading too, also thanks to the kind soul mentioned above.  At the end of the day, if you can get your rig configured such that it measures where it needs to for the things that matter to you, and that results in sound that checks all the boxes that matter most to you, and you've got everything you can out of the gear and room you have (or leave you at least for a while not wanting for anything more), awesome!  My thought was just a little hope that at the end of this major change to your system (from the perspective of a hobbyist) you have something new to be excited about uncovering the rabbit hole as being able to go a little deeper.  :thumb:


Also, thanks for your posts regarding setup and configuration of your M2 system.  If I were to go for it myself in some capacity, I would likely take the configuration route of passive rather than active cabinets for a few room/situational reasons on my end.  As I haven't really used pro gear at home for anything, it is good to have a picture book-style guide on what is I think a subject assumed as common knowledge among people who would be using this kind of gear in the first place, which hobbyists moving pro/custom installer type setups into personal living spaces is likely not to be the case.  Thanks again!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 13 May 2017, 05:35 pm
Who doesn't like pictures?   :lol:


The Crown GUI while playing a signal.


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162246)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 13 May 2017, 06:10 pm
I'm all about pics.

I don't know if subwoofers are slow or fast, but they sure as hell sound different just like speakers and their amps.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 13 May 2017, 06:15 pm
I'm all about pics.

I don't know if subwoofers are slow or fast, but they sure as hell sound different just like speakers and their amps.
haha.  Well, if the Funk 21.0LX's can't do it I've got bigger issues.  In all honestly, they should be are the best subs I've ever owned by far based on the data-bass measurements.  They're definitely the most expensive by factor of oh never mind.   :o
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 13 May 2017, 06:27 pm
So... after getting sidetracked a bit, I just checked out Funk Audio's website...

 :o

Playing in that ballpark, I'm pretty sure anything else would really end up a lateral move to taste or personal preference rather than a revolutionary objective improvement... and performance aside, they look like they make some really pretty cabinets!

Carry on, sir.  :beer:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 13 May 2017, 06:27 pm
You're getting to that point where things damn well better perform :lol:

Do the M2 have an auto calibration in the software if you want (or need) ? It's nice that you can set bass levels from them where ever the room needs, since with passive speakers the crossover could be right or wrong depending on the size of the room.

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 13 May 2017, 06:39 pm
You're getting to that point where things damn well better perform :lol:

Do the M2 have an auto calibration in the software if you want (or need) ? It's nice that you can set bass levels from them where ever the room needs, since with passive speakers the crossover could be right or wrong depending on the size of the room.
The amp doesn't have auto calibration.  You can read about the amp here (https://3e7777c294b9bcaa5486-bc95634e606bab3d0a267a5a7901c44d.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/product_documents/documents/2778_1460397361/5040450_DCi_Series_Network_Input_Manual_012616_original.pdf) though.  I will say that it might look intimidating at first but after a few looks and reading it really does make sense.  I mean, it literally took me 20 min at most to configure it all including updating the firmware (click of a button on the GUI).  If I can do it, anyone can as long they're willing to read and be patient. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 13 May 2017, 06:44 pm
So... after getting sidetracked a bit, I just checked out Funk Audio's website...

 :o

Playing in that ballpark, I'm pretty sure anything else would really end up a lateral move to taste or personal preference rather than a revolutionary objective improvement... and performance aside, they look like they make some really pretty cabinets!

Carry on, sir.  :beer:
Ha!  Thanks.  I'm still a little sore but I'm impressed on every level of them so far.  The GUI for the web based DSP is nothing short of spectacular from everything I've seen so far.  My cabinets are going to be very simple though as I'm not into the audio furniture.  Basic black texture for me.   8)


The driver is the Funk Audio UH21V1 (http://www.funkaudio.ca/blog) if you have any interest in reading about it. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: David C on 15 May 2017, 04:52 pm
Jason
How do
they sound. Would love to read a critique of your initial reactions
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 15 May 2017, 06:12 pm
How do they sound. Would love to read a critique of your initial reactions
I think the initial post pretty much says it all since I purchased them.   :P  There's nothing that I can say other than what I have.   :scratch:  They're that good!  I'm trying to think of what I'd buy instead at any price and there's nothing that comes to mind.  Add subs and measurements and I'm good in the equipment department.  The reality is that I never would've changed from what I had (GedLee Abbeys) if my life didn't take a turn but I needed to reduce my tonnage to move.  Now that's behind me I can move on to what I think is evolution and something quite frankly I never thought was attainable. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 18 May 2017, 02:59 pm
I think the initial post pretty much says it all since I purchased them.   :P  There's nothing that I can say other than what I have.   :scratch:  They're that good!  I'm trying to think of what I'd buy instead at any price and there's nothing that comes to mind.  Add subs and measurements and I'm good in the equipment department.  The reality is that I never would've changed from what I had (GedLee Abbeys) if my life didn't take a turn but I needed to reduce my tonnage to move.  Now that's behind me I can move on to what I think is evolution and something quite frankly I never thought was attainable.
If there's one dislike, it would be that I'm not able to turn them off and they keep me up waaay too late.   I seriously need to do a better job at going to :sleep:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: rockadanny on 18 May 2017, 04:05 pm
Congrats Jason!  :thumb:
A very telling sign, them keeping you up, that you really are enjoying them.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 18 May 2017, 04:14 pm
If there's one dislike, it would be that I'm not able to turn them off and they keep me up waaay too late.   I seriously need to do a better job at going to :sleep:

That I can understand. It seems like I get the itch to start rolling through LP's in the evening and all of sudden I'm racing for bed hoping I can fall asleep faster than I will :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 19 May 2017, 12:38 am
I confirmed that the speakers are crossing at the correct distance behind me as per JBL. 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162556)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162557)


Then it was time to install the new DH Labs Q-10 Signature Speaker Cables.  Really nice Mini spades on the amp end and pins on the speakers.  Perfect! 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162558)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162559)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 19 May 2017, 05:59 am
For all the engineering efforts, JBL/Crown could go a little farther on the connector side. In a perfect world you set it and done but... even in the pro world that's the dream, not the reality. They could learn something from some of the audio connector companies that have made hand tightening into wrench tight quality. That or just use Speakons... I guess on the flip side you end up with some nice looking cables!

That setup is heaven for the nerd that loves to fiddle with endless little tweaks of settings.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 19 May 2017, 12:34 pm
For all the engineering efforts, JBL/Crown could go a little farther on the connector side. In a perfect world you set it and done but... even in the pro world that's the dream, not the reality. They could learn something from some of the audio connector companies that have made hand tightening into wrench tight quality. That or just use Speakons... I guess on the flip side you end up with some nice looking cables!

That setup is heaven for the nerd that loves to fiddle with endless little tweaks of settings.
The DCi is an install series amp which means it's meant for a studio not traveling.  Some of the other amps such as the I Tech have your usual connectors on the back.  Since I don't play the cable merry go around I really don't care.  The amp even comes with the Phoenix Connectors for the input cables.  As I've said before, this system is the anti-audiophile system and it's not meant for someone who doesn't want to have to learn a little and read instructions.  Their market is are the Pro guys who know what to expect and know how to use the equipment.  It's not hard but patience and some thinking is required.  I figured I'd post all this stuff to make it easier should someone decide to go down this path there's a photo library to see. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Nick77 on 19 May 2017, 12:37 pm
So are the speakers immune to speaker cables or were the Q-10's a nice addition?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 19 May 2017, 12:40 pm
So are the speakers immune to speaker cables or were the Q-10's a nice addition?
The new cables work as expected.  I don't chase cables and really just wanted well built cables with proper terminals.  That's it. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Armaegis on 19 May 2017, 04:27 pm
I'm curious what the market split for the M2 is between pro and consumers.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 19 May 2017, 05:13 pm
I'm curious what the market split for the M2 is between pro and consumers.
No idea but I'd guess it's 90% for pro based on my conversations with JBL. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 19 May 2017, 10:07 pm
They didn't have any trouble taking your money.... where the cash flows they will go. If someone is an audiophile and they want a pro setup, it's the perfect product; same if a pro needs a great setup.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 19 May 2017, 10:18 pm
They didn't have any trouble taking your money.... where the cash flows they will go. If someone is an audiophile and they want a pro setup, it's the perfect product; same if a pro needs a great setup.
Huh?  Never said they wouldn't sell to a consumer just like me.  :scratch:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 20 May 2017, 12:37 am
Since most of you guys are into cables here's one for you.   :lol:   Yep, needed a longer power cord so I went back into the stash and grabbed the DH Labs Red Wave and replaced the 15A end to 20A and now I'm good.  I only have two A/C power cords in my system.  One to power the DCi and one to power the Vinnie Rossi MINI which powers the Mytek Brooklyn Dac and sMS-200 via 12Vdc.  Sexy ass IEC connector huh? 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162581)
Delivering pristine 122VAC to the Crown DCi
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 20 May 2017, 01:48 am
Huh?  Never said they wouldn't sell to a consumer just like me.  :scratch:

Sometimes the marketing pitch is that something was made for another purpose. I bet JBL was like... meh, everyone will buy it!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 20 May 2017, 01:52 am
Sometimes the marketing pitch is that something was made for another purpose. I bet JBL was like... meh, everyone will buy it!
Considering their majority of a dealer network; I'd disagree.  Do I think that they know people that are serious about science that understand it will buy it?  Yes for sure. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 20 May 2017, 02:18 am
Cuz I like to know all the details.  Here is the SPL and Current draw of this amp while playing.  On turn on, the amp did draw just over 7A @ 122VAC. 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162583)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162585)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162584)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Tone Depth on 20 May 2017, 02:58 am
Can you illuminate the science regarding the IEC 20A plug on your PC? I've never understood.

Considering their majority of a dealer network; I'd disagree.  Do I think that they know people that are serious about science that understand it will buy it?  Yes for sure.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 20 May 2017, 11:35 am
Can you illuminate the science regarding the IEC 20A plug on your PC? I've never understood.
It's all about current draw.  The below chart is from the Crown DCi manual and shows current draw based on the level of power output of the amp.  As soon as I started doing research and I saw that the amps had 20A IEC connectors on them I started doing research on this topic as I didn't know if my rental could support the required electrical needs.  After looking at the manual in this section I knew I'd be fine. 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162598)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Tone Depth on 20 May 2017, 05:45 pm
Thanks, so for 8 ohm speakers kept at levels below clipping a 15 amp connector has adequate capacity?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 20 May 2017, 05:52 pm
Thanks, so for 8 ohm speakers kept at levels below clipping a 15 amp connector has adequate capacity?
Yes, remember at 1/3 of output of this amp you will have hearing damage in the typical home setting.  It's not really the connector per se since the amp has a 20A IEC Inlet.  You have to have a 20A IEC connector on the power cord. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 22 May 2017, 02:03 am
I have started baseline measurements. 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162679)



Just waiting on my Funk Audio (http://www.funkaudio.ca/) 21.0LX subs to arrive. 



They use the UH21v1 drivers(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162678)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162698)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: lowtech on 22 May 2017, 03:37 am
I have started baseline measurements. 

I'll bite.  Why do you need a nearfield measurement?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 22 May 2017, 03:47 am
That's beyond nearfield... At that distance the horn is nothing more than a little gain in the lower region.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 22 May 2017, 11:21 am
I'll bite.  Why do you need a nearfield measurement?
I'm a data whore and always take measurements of each driver to make sure there isn't anything out of the ordinary before taking room measurements.  This is a great way to make sure everything is wired properly and there isn't any damage.  Good QC check. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 22 May 2017, 01:25 pm
I'm a data whore and always take measurements of each driver to make sure there isn't anything out of the ordinary before taking room measurements.  This is a great way to make sure everything is wired properly and there isn't any damage.  Good QC check.

+1. It's nice to have that as a reference in case something were to go wrong in the future. I do exactly the same thing.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 22 May 2017, 02:49 pm
That's beyond nearfield... At that distance the horn is nothing more than a little gain in the lower region.
:scratch:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 2 Jun 2017, 10:19 pm
Just got news that my Funk Audio 21.0LX (master/slave) subs are working and playing all weekend for shipping next week.


   :hyper: :weights: 


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163263)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 2 Jun 2017, 11:26 pm
Awesome!!  :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 7 Jun 2017, 05:06 pm
Awesome!!  :green:
Just got my tracking number for my Funk 21.0LX subs.   :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 7 Jun 2017, 05:37 pm
Hope you're eating your spinach is preparation :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 7 Jun 2017, 05:50 pm
Hope you're eating your spinach is preparation :lol:
:lol:  No doubt.  I think they're about 140 lbs each.   :duh:  That's the only downside to them but you can't have it both ways, that's for sure! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 7 Jun 2017, 05:58 pm
:lol:  No doubt.  I think they're about 140 lbs each.   :duh:  That's the only downside to them but you can't have it both ways, that's for sure!

Just imagine if the motor were ferrite instead of neodymium! Could be worse! The UH21V1 driver weighs 50lbs  :weights: If it was a ferrite motor it would be double that weight.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 7 Jun 2017, 06:48 pm
Just imagine if the motor were ferrite instead of neodymium! Could be worse!

Best,
Anand.
For sure!   
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: OzarkTom on 8 Jun 2017, 07:00 pm
Used M2's -$6799

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-jbl-m2-master-reference-monitor-speakers-2017-05-22-speakers-37027-brentwood-tn?acq=fuel&keyword=fullrange&creative=shopping&gclid=CJufmID2rtQCFdgKgQodvUYLlQ

Used M2's-$7750 or make offer

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-M2-Master-Reference-Speakers-Studio-Monitors-/172712812560?hash=item28367c6010:g:f3sAAOSwcB5ZM3KE

Looks like duplcate listings.

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 8 Jun 2017, 09:03 pm
Used M2's -$6799

He started at 10k, then 8k, now 6800, sans amp.
I'm a buyer at 3k.  :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: mr_bill on 9 Jun 2017, 12:53 am
Can you just run these M2s with a regular 2 channel or 4 channel amp or do you have to use the dsp amps with the software for speaker adjustment?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 9 Jun 2017, 01:44 am
Can you just run these M2s with a regular 2 channel or 4 channel amp or do you have to use the dsp amps with the software for speaker adjustment?

Here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149780.msg1606816#msg1606816

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 9 Jun 2017, 02:45 am
Can you just run these M2s with a regular 2 channel or 4 channel amp or do you have to use the dsp amps with the software for speaker adjustment?

Short answer yes.

Applicable answer.... for 2 channel youd have to design a crossover, you'll need a calibrated microphone and tons of experience, and even more patients. 4 channel can be done much easier with equipment Anand has pointed out.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 20 Jun 2017, 08:40 pm
Well, after months of waiting the (2) Funk Audio 21.0LX have arrived.   :o   Funny how 24" cube doesn't sound so big until it's in front of you.   :lol:


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164221)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164222)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164223)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164224)


Nathan Funk even has wood lined boxes which is SO smart.  Wish more companies would do this for shipping large heavy items. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 20 Jun 2017, 09:23 pm
Yikes  :thumb:

Makes big M2s look puny.

Bet you can't wait to watch Jurassic Park.  :P
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 20 Jun 2017, 09:28 pm
Yikes  :thumb:

Makes big M2s look puny.

Bet you can't wait to watch Jurassic Park.  :P
I know.  I actually thought about having one made into some sort of a chair.  Large is an understatement.   :lol:


No movies here for me!   :nono:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 20 Jun 2017, 09:33 pm
I forgot to show the "business end" of the cabinet.  Since they're a Master/Slave pair this is the only thing to see as the other sub just has a speakON.  This sub has two amps stacked but with one plate showing.


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164225)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 20 Jun 2017, 09:58 pm
Jason.

Those subs are too small  :lol:

After you get them set up, measured, calibrated, I'm sure you'll be pleased, just like I was with the 18.3. The boxes for my 18.3 also are lined with wood.

What will shock you is not the low bass, but the midbass.

Have fun!

Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 20 Jun 2017, 10:16 pm
They make your room look small!

Shipping is rough... no matter the weight companies like UPS/Fedex/DHL pretty much refuse to insure anything without a cardboard outside.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 20 Jun 2017, 11:42 pm
They make your room look small!
The room isn't big at all. Not like the last one, that's for sure!  CD speakers are no bs and that's why I can do it. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Jun 2017, 01:44 am
Wall of Sound anyone?   :lol:




 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164269)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 22 Jun 2017, 02:40 am
If you look carefully there is a simplicity in that setup that is beguiling  :bowdown:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 22 Jun 2017, 03:15 am
If you look closer still, the deception in the appearance is that it trades one set of complexities for another. :duel:

Respect, for either path taken, and in this case a fine example of a path less traveled.  :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 22 Jun 2017, 03:23 am
If you look closer still, the deception in the appearance is that it trades one set of complexities for another. :duel:

Yawn. We'll agree to disagree then. It's the execution that counts. Subscribing to only ONE method as the end all be all is narrow minded and SO boring.

Kind of like a buffet line...I'll try everything. Prexisting biases and notions are not my cup of tea.

 :kiss:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 22 Jun 2017, 03:33 am
I'm sorry to have... agreed... with you then?   :scratch:

I'll say (again) that a tip of the hat is in order for the execution in this case.  :thumb:

(I had to look at Jason's "small" room size in his systems link because as I see this system progress it keeps intriguing me... no way I could pull something like this off in my space, but all my best to those that can!)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JohnR on 22 Jun 2017, 04:49 pm
Deception?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 22 Jun 2017, 05:20 pm
Queue up some Phil Spector
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Jun 2017, 05:41 pm
Queue up some Phil Spector
He's a little busy now...
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 22 Jun 2017, 11:43 pm
Deception?

In this case, appearances, referring to Anand's admiration for the simplicity of this setup.  My thought was that where one school of thought gets to the end of the rainbow with a lot of physical gear (outwardly presenting a measure of complexity), this school of thought packs a lot of that under the hood of a single physical box with a lot of computer programming know-how behind it.  Both solutions in a really high-end scenario are far from simple, the maybe more old school way of doing things just wears its complexity on its sleeve.

I might compare this setup to a really good job done by a custom installer/integrator; the end user sees (comparatively) few boxes in the room, can easily mash the 'play' button, and amazing sound comes out.  That simplicity is where Anand and I (I believe) agree and is something to be proud of.  What isn't seen is all the work that went into making that happen, which I respect just as much as the person who painstakingly scrutinizes every single fuse, capacitor, wire, etc. in a system to achieve a 'synergy' that this system makes happen in other ways.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Jun 2017, 12:51 pm
In this case, appearances, referring to Anand's admiration for the simplicity of this setup.  My thought was that where one school of thought gets to the end of the rainbow with a lot of physical gear (outwardly presenting a measure of complexity), this school of thought packs a lot of that under the hood of a single physical box with a lot of computer programming know-how behind it.  Both solutions in a really high-end scenario are far from simple, the maybe more old school way of doing things just wears its complexity on its sleeve.

I might compare this setup to a really good job done by a custom installer/integrator; the end user sees (comparatively) few boxes in the room, can easily mash the 'play' button, and amazing sound comes out.  That simplicity is where Anand and I (I believe) agree and is something to be proud of.  What isn't seen is all the work that went into making that happen, which I respect just as much as the person who painstakingly scrutinizes every single fuse, capacitor, wire, etc. in a system to achieve a 'synergy' that this system makes happen in other ways.
Actually the main part of the system is very simple as even I did do it.  The chain is Mytek Brooklyn > Crown DCi 4/1250 > JBL M2.  That's all there is.  The computer with Roon and the NAS is all separate stuff as it doesn't require that.  Although I do feel like a part time IT guy with all the stuff going I actually somewhat enjoy it and have learned a TON about it all.  There's pretty much nothing I can't do with my NAS or network at this point but again it's not required for great sound. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Jun 2017, 01:24 pm
I'll also add that the Eero Routers make it so darn simple.  All from my iPhone or iPad.


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164355)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164356)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 23 Jun 2017, 04:10 pm
https://eero.com/

That's cool.

Why are subs on the LAN?   EQ/management? 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 23 Jun 2017, 05:29 pm
https://eero.com/

That's cool.

Why are subs on the LAN?   EQ/management?

The ALLDSP program that is in the plate amps of these subs have Ethernet/RJ45 access in addition to USB access.

https://www.alldsp.com/php/get_file.php?src=software_public&f=Software%20Introduction.mp4

https://www.alldsp.com/software.html

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 23 Jun 2017, 07:05 pm
Very cool!!  Thanks for the link.

That 4 ch plate amp with built in DSP would make a nice BIG active speaker.

Which of their plate amps is used in the Funk subwoofers? I didn't see a single amp version, so is it the 2ch version to power dual voice coils?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 23 Jun 2017, 07:16 pm
Very cool!!  Thanks for the link.

That 4 ch plate amp with built in DSP would make a nice BIG active speaker.

Which of their plate amps is used in the Funk subwoofers? I didn't see a single amp version, so is it the 2ch version to power dual voice coils?

The plate amp I believe is sourced from Pascal. Then Funk puts the Pascal and ALLDSP together - I'm guessing. On Funk's 18.0 subwoofer reviewed by Ricci, he states that the plate amp is from Pascal, start reading at "Design Overview" - http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/funk-audio-fw18.0-subwoofer

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 23 Jun 2017, 07:56 pm
Thanks, nice review. Doesn't look like a separate daughterboard for the ALLDSP functions, looks like single PCB for everything in the amp with large SMD section. Probably an OEM version made by ALLDSP for Pascal. Not much like that available to DIYers. The review says the amp is $1300 option. Not bad.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 23 Jun 2017, 08:02 pm
Is Funk a radially magnetized neo motor like (Aura) or traditional steel shunt gap?



Edit: Looks radial.  :thumb:
(http://www.funkaudio.ca/uploads/3/7/3/2/37325201/s884891237978113168_p26_i31_w160.jpeg)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 23 Jun 2017, 08:14 pm
Is Funk a radially magnetized neo motor like (Aura) or traditional steel shunt gap?

All their motors use neodymium. The actual design changes depending on the driver and size we are discussing. For example the UH21V1 in the Funk 21.0LX is an underhung motor and the magnet is a segmented neodymium ring that is 9 inches in diameter. Email Nathan directly or look up Harbottle Audio (http://www.harbottleaudio.com/) where he sells to DIY'ers and describes in more detail.

The Aura 18 is an awesome woofer as well. Trades off sensitivity for deeper bass. Excellent measurements on data-bass.com; But my choice for "value", deeper bass response but lower sensitivity is Dayton Audio UM18.

Now we are digressing...back to topic. Back to the M2's...see you tomorrow!

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 24 Jun 2017, 12:08 am
Although I do feel like a part time IT guy with all the stuff going I actually somewhat enjoy it and have learned a TON about it all.  There's pretty much nothing I can't do with my NAS or network at this point but again it's not required for great sound.

This, I think, is the core of how this is a 'whole new world' to the average audiophile.  This is also a part of why I am conflicted as to going down this particular rabbit hole.  I know that a system like this can be built to perform, but I spend 12+ hours every day dealing with IT stuff; I'm just not sure I would find the same enjoyment as you in creeping it even further into my stereo (admittedly more than it already has to be) when I get home.  I've been Windows free at home for more years now than I can remember, and of course Harman's control software doesn't run natively in Linux or on a Mac...

I'm sorry I haven't dug deep enough into the documentation for it, but does the Crown amp have enough hardware and software guts built in to remove a D-A conversion from the chain, cutting the Mytek out, and doing everything digitally from the NAS all the way to the final amp output on the Crown?  If so, did you decide to keep the Mytek in play because it adds something special to the recipe that the Crown didn't deliver on its own sonically, or was there some other practical reason to keep the Mytek in the chain? 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: DS-21 on 24 Jun 2017, 07:09 am
"Can you just run these M2s with a regular 2 channel or 4 channel amp or do you have to use the dsp amps with the software for speaker adjustment?"
Short answer yes.

Applicable answer.... for 2 channel youd have to design a crossover, you'll need a calibrated microphone and tons of experience, and even more patients. 4 channel can be done much easier with equipment Anand has pointed out.

Accurate answer: yes, with a BSS processor, or the new JBL Intonato24.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 9 Oct 2017, 09:51 am
Accurate answer: yes, with a BSS processor, or the new JBL Intonato24.

Other non-Harman DDP solutions are available!   ;)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Nov 2017, 11:43 pm
So far I'm really enjoying my new dac.   :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 23 Nov 2017, 01:03 am
Which is what, pray tell?

Still enjoying the speakers/amps too, I assume?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 23 Nov 2017, 01:03 am
So far I'm really enjoying my new dac.   :green:
Indeed  :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Nov 2017, 01:29 am
Which is what, pray tell?

Still enjoying the speakers/amps too, I assume?
I seriously went off the deep end.  PS Audio DirectStream with Bridge II.  Never ever thought I'd own any PSA gear but here I am.   :o
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 23 Nov 2017, 01:38 am
Yeah, I've heard that, excellent DAC!  :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Nov 2017, 02:08 am
Yeah, I've heard that, excellent DAC!  :thumb:
As have I but never really gave it much attention given the marketing hype but I must say it's impressive.  Ted obviously knows what he's doing and PSA has great engineers and industrial designers. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 23 Nov 2017, 02:37 am
Does the Bridge II connect to your router or to the SOtm?

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 23 Nov 2017, 02:45 am
Does the Bridge II connect to your router or to the SOtm?

Best,
Anand.
Bridge II is ethernet cable in. You don't need anything else, Roon Ready.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 23 Nov 2017, 02:50 am
Bridge II is ethernet cable in. You don't need anything else, Roon Ready.

Looks like you got a pair M2’s as well!  :thumb:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Nov 2017, 02:52 am
Bridge II is ethernet cable in. You don't need anything else, Roon Ready.
Spotify and MQA coming end of next week too.  Not that I care but it will be there for those that do. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 23 Nov 2017, 12:22 pm
Yeah, I've heard that, excellent DAC!  :thumb:

It has a passive transformer coupled output stage  :thumb:

One master clock, not multiple clocks. Simpler digital architecture.

(http://www.psaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Complexity.png)

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Dec 2017, 03:26 am
Yeah well Ted Smith is no slouch and it sounds incredible.  It's really something that I wasn't expecting!  Nice to have an all in one box too from Ethernet to output.  Couldn't be happier! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Dec 2017, 03:29 am
Also important to note that the DS does upsample to 20x DSD as noted on their site since Huron.



http://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-dac/#tab-features (http://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-dac/#tab-features)

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173286)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173287)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 15 Jan 2018, 06:34 pm
I really enjoyed hearing Jason's M2s this past Saturday. Thanks Jason!

I found them to be extremely detailed and dynamic. You can hear everything. I heard things in a recording I've listened to for 40 years that I didn't hear before.

They play as loud as you want without distortion. To me they sound the same loud or soft. Turning them up does not increase the excitement as it does with speakers that benefit from increased cone speed.

Top to bottom, tone is superb. Very truthful, realistic, natural. Even low bass is well textured when the signal has something to offer, like organ. Reflex ports are relatively short and contoured, not straight pipe. Other brands that have this advanced porting are Ultima2 and KEF, which also have excellent clean bass.

Before listening, I was a little prejudiced against the professional electronics and I listened carefully for sonic flaws. I didn't hear any distinct distortion or any lack of refinement. I heard extreme damping and driver control, and absolute confidence and power bottom to top. I found it a little difficult to connect to the music emotionally compared to my own system, and maybe the amps had a hand in that. But I realize it's a professional tool, it's not a pleasure craft, so I can accept and appreciate it for what it is. I personally don't have a need or desire for the extreme detail the M2 offers, although I do like to indulge when the opportunity presents. For my own everyday system I like a little less detail so my attention is freer to roam and daydream in the mood of the music. I don't mean less resolution, I mean EQ in a more natural feeling FR that is more palatable for pleasure listening. But professional monitors are flat response and  they are designed to make it as easy as possible to concentrate on the work.

I was very impressed by the purity and beauty of the midbass/midrange region. Male vocals were just unbelievably great. Chris Isaac, Jim Messina, even Brian Bromberg (thanks BISL!) Crossover band is uncolored, you can't hear where it crosses at all, as expected, but IME of building several econowave type speakers it is not so easy to achieve. The steep minimum phase filters' phase rotation was not noticeable. The detail compensated for any lack of openness from the faster twist, and it's in a region that is less sensitive to phase than presence or midbass where crossover filters usually reside. A nice benefit of the larger horn.

The adjectives I would use to describe M2 are subtractive, like "dry" and "uncolored," although the dryness and uncoloredness are palpable. You really feel there's nothing else, you feel it because normal speakers are "there" while these aren't. It doesn't sound "detailed," the dryness is not a sound, it's an absence of any distortion or color, even the pleasant colors like magnetic hysteresis or paper cone flex, and in Jason's room, even room ambience is mostly damped. Even the reflex port sounds clean and dry as much as it can be. The detail you perceive is controlled by your own focus, free to look at an atom, or the whole earth. But the capacity for delivering information seems unlimited.

I played Felix Hell Organ Sensation pretty loudly, the track with the big loud low pedal tones. Liszt, I think, B.A.C.H. The low notes were very loud and very low, I could easily hear the V8 growl of the IMD on the low pedals, they were not melted down to sinewaves as usual. It was loud enough for Jason to lift his eyebrow, but nothing in the house was rattling, so it was clearly not loud enough. Maybe next time.

On solo violin, Julia Fischer Bach Preludes and Fugues on Pentatone, it is a beautiful recording. Back in my audiophile addict days I used to sometimes wish for a little more textural violin tone to come through on this awesome performance, and with the M2s I finally got it. The mix of the recording hasn't changed, but the insight the M2s provide allow me to focus on whatever aspect of the sound I'm interested in. I can choose to hear as much wood or steel or rosin as I chose, or back out and hear all three. The ease of mentally zooming in close and back out is really unique. The waveguide increases the acoustic impedance way beyond any 1" tweeter, so much more information can be put into the air. It really is amazing how much resolution our ears and brain are capable of, and equally amazing how much information is in 16/44.1 data. That track was very pretty and moving. I could have listened to that whole record.

But listening to pop tracks like EWF "In the Stone," Ferrell's "Bouncin Back," and even hard swinging Black and Tan Fantasy on Ellington at Newport I found it a little difficult to fall into the groove as easily as I can with these at home. I don't know why. But it got easier through the audition, so maybe require a human break in period to get used to them, to adjust my own mental listening filters so the information overflow can be ignored when not needed or wanted.  I'd be interested to hear from other M2 owners here about their emotional interaction with M2s, and did they need a couple dates to warm up to M2 before the first kiss?

Overall a wonderful, peak listening experience. New sensations, lots of new audio ideas to think about. M2 is an amazing technical achievement. I can't wait to hear them again. I'll be better prepared with tracks focused on answering all the questions that arose in this first taste. Thanks again Jason!
Rich
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 15 Jan 2018, 06:48 pm
Rich,

Great review, you definitely have a gift for writing great prose. 

Sorry I couldn't be there...

There is not much to add as the M2's are really all you described.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 15 Jan 2018, 07:39 pm
Hey, thanks for reading the whole damn thing!
Hope to see you in march for g2g.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 15 Jan 2018, 08:13 pm
I described the M2's to Jason as a scalpel, where perhaps a butter knife could suffice at times. They give it all up, no excuses. There is little, if anything they can't do, so you just have to prepare yourself. They must really be da bomb in the music production business.

I have them set up with a BSS London outboard DSP XO so will try some different amps. The challenge is you need 4 identical channels of sufficient power for ease of set up. The Crown DCI definitely does that job well, but the fans are just too obtrusive for my home environment.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Jan 2018, 03:59 pm
Great to have you Rich!  Just think if my cables were up to your standards.  :P

I think another AC member is coming over to listen at some point too. 

I got news today that one of my speakers is pregnant and the babies arrive tomorrow. :o
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 17 Jan 2018, 05:58 pm
I got news today that one of my speakers is pregnant and the babies arrive tomorrow. :o

YAY! Congrats proud grandpa!

Better get those M2s neutered before this happens again. ;)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 17 Jan 2018, 11:18 pm
I have them set up with a BSS London outboard DSP XO so will try some different amps. The challenge is you need 4 identical channels of sufficient power for ease of set up. The Crown DCI definitely does that job well, but the fans are just too obtrusive for my home environment.

But what is sufficient power, really? The 1200W power requirement is to meet the M2's 123dB SPL and distortion specs with Crown amps. 1200W@ 123dB means ~5W @100dB. And that makes sense because the M2 woofer's sensitivity (2216Nd) is 95dB@1W/8R, typical of most 15" professional drivers. Audiophiles use drivers with high sensitivity like that for their 2W SET amps. The M2's 1200W@123dB spec leaves good headroom, and at 100dB the 2216Nd actually burns only 3.5W. The D2 has a passive attenuation network and even higher sensitivity than 2216Nd. At 105dB, as loud as I would ever play at home, M2 needs <10wpc x2.

Modulus 286 is 2x40wpc @8R. That should make >113dB, w/ two M2s playing in-room at clipping. But mod86 distortion stays low to full power so >107dB is realistically usable SPL. Mod86 SQ is generally well regarded, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised if you haven't heard this little amp yet. Electrical damping is comparable to DCI, as both use abundant negative feedback. Mod86 is at least as resolving as DCI, imo. It's shocking the resolution the first time you hear it.

I use single channel Mod86 on my 92dB sensitvity, 4ohm (2.9ohm dips,) passive xo, 4 way Legacys in a very large room. It plays very loud and sounds excellent. Mod86's 65w@4R is not quite enough for the full performance envelope of the Legacys, so I occasionally get a trace of thermal protection when I really push it hard. But that is a far bigger load than a single active 15" 8ohm 95dB woofer which would voltage clip before thermal protect.

I have 4ch of Mod86 (ver1) that I can put into a box for you guys to try with the M2s: Jason, Tom, Joel, if anyone's interested. I have Par86 I plan to build for the Legacys anyway, and extra chassis and tranny, etc.  Eventually I'll make 2 3way mod86 amps for future speaker projects, but not planning to use them anytime soon. I personally would love to hear Mod86 on M2. But you need external crossover - Mod86 don't do no math.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 17 Jan 2018, 11:34 pm
Rich,

Unless the M2’s have some crazy amounts of EQ in the low end (ie <50Hz), I agree with you. The power requirements for a 2ch enthusiast in a typical “small” room are going to be miniscule compared to an M2 in an auditorium, commercial theater or large studio. JBL had certain goals for certain venues as such they have larger powered amplifiers for a rather efficient speaker. I had a similar discussion with goskers.

I’ll be sending my rear panels for both my 4ch modulus 286 and parallel 86 on Friday to FPE  :wink:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 18 Jan 2018, 12:44 am
Yes, for big EQ adjustments like room correction and mastering jobs you might need more power. But the ported bass reduces the boost requirements compared to OB or sealed. Anyway, the M2's high sensitivity opens up many possibilities.

One thing that I'm interested in understanding better was Tom's comment that they need high power for setup.

Can you email me a pic of your panels? Are they doing your back connector panels too?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Jan 2018, 02:06 am
I have them set up with a BSS London outboard DSP XO so will try some different amps. The challenge is you need 4 identical channels of sufficient power for ease of set up. The Crown DCI definitely does that job well, but the fans are just too obtrusive for my home environment.
I have the same BSS BLU 50 coming so I'll be able to try some too.   :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 18 Jan 2018, 04:09 pm
I currently have a four channel Modulus286. Am planning on getting a BSS unit as a stand alone so I can try those out. We shall see if a noticeable improvement is heard or not.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Jan 2018, 04:07 pm
They have arrived!


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=174959)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=174960)


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=174961)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 22 Jan 2018, 04:14 pm
Cute little bastards.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 22 Jan 2018, 04:28 pm
Very nice!  :thumb:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: cloudbaseracer on 22 Jan 2018, 06:05 pm
Jason,

Are you using the 705P for rear and side home theater?  If not, why the addition?

Cheers,
James
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Jan 2018, 06:42 pm
Jason,

Are you using the 705P for rear and side home theater?  If not, why the addition?

Cheers,
James
Those are the 708P actually and not for theater at all.  Why not!?!?!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: cloudbaseracer on 22 Jan 2018, 06:56 pm
I meant 708P - will edit to correct.

So these are in your main system? You will switch between the M2 and 708P for 2 channel listening?

Cheers,
James
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Jan 2018, 07:55 pm
I meant 708P - will edit to correct.

So these are in your main system? You will switch between the M2 and 708P for 2 channel listening?

Cheers,
James
These are currently next to my M2's.  I was blown away with them when I was in Northridge and knew I wanted a pair for a few reasons. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Mar 2018, 02:32 am
Just a quick update on the M2's.  I finally have the BSS BLU-50 in the house loaded with the tuning file.  Next step is to get the output wiring done and get some amps!


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177165)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: pis99 on 6 Mar 2018, 03:50 am
Nice, I also got my BLU-800 connected to M2 couple days ago. It is clear to my ear that the CobraNet route sounds best when pairing with Crown I-techHD amp. It is also a good choice for none JBL/Crown set up. I am really surprised how good the M2 can sound with the combo of BLU-800 and ML532.



Just a quick update on the M2's.  I finally have the BSS BLU-50 in the house loaded with the tuning file.  Next step is to get the output wiring done and get some amps!


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177165)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Mar 2018, 11:48 am
Nice, I also got my BLU-800 connected to M2 couple days ago. It is clear to my ear that the CobraNet route sounds best when pairing with Crown I-techHD amp. It is also a good choice for none JBL/Crown set up. I am really surprised how good the M2 can sound with the combo of BLU-800 and ML532.
Very nice!  The BLU 50 doesn’t have CobraNet so I won’t be able to try that which is fine.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 6 Mar 2018, 12:36 pm
Nice, I also got my BLU-800 connected to M2 couple days ago. It is clear to my ear that the CobraNet route sounds best when pairing with Crown I-techHD amp. It is also a good choice for none JBL/Crown set up. I am really surprised how good the M2 can sound with the combo of BLU-800 and ML532.

ML532 being Mark Levinson 532 amplifier?

Thanks,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 6 Mar 2018, 01:02 pm
Very nice!  The BLU 50 doesn’t have CobraNet so I won’t be able to try that which is fine.
But you COULD connect via BLU-Net to the Crown DCI4 running pass through :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Mar 2018, 03:08 pm
But you COULD connect via BLU-Net to the Crown DCI4 running pass through :green:
:lol:


That defeats the whole purpose!   :duh:


I'm going to try to finish the output wiring on Wednesday and try each channel to make sure it's all working.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 6 Mar 2018, 03:27 pm
:lol:


That defeats the whole purpose!   :duh:


I'm going to try to finish the output wiring on Wednesday and try each channel to make sure it's all working.

If we haven't figured out Jason by now, this is a man of less complexity, more simplicity, less drama and more music  :thumb:

Best  :wink:

Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Mar 2018, 03:44 pm
If we haven't figured out Jason by now, this is a man of less complexity, more simplicity, less drama and more music  :thumb:

Best  ;)

Anand.
I am now for sure!   :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Mar 2018, 04:20 pm
Here’s one screen shot of HiQnet London Architect 6.0. I’ll post more once I get it all working.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177178)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 6 Mar 2018, 04:34 pm
Here’s one screen shot of HiQnet London Architect 6.0. I’ll post more once I get it all working.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177178)
"Secret sauce" in those 2 gray M2 macro boxes to the right  :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jriggy on 6 Mar 2018, 05:19 pm
Hey guys, just passing through yer thread here...
Tom, you seriously need to change your avatar pic! :icon_lol: gone are those listening days!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 6 Mar 2018, 06:22 pm
Hey guys, just passing through yer thread here...
Tom, you seriously need to change your avatar pic! :icon_lol: gone are those listening days!
True dat. Perhaps a picture of the beach  :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: pis99 on 6 Mar 2018, 08:52 pm
Yes, two Mark Levinson 532s



ML532 being Mark Levinson 532 amplifier?

Thanks,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: pis99 on 6 Mar 2018, 08:55 pm
The big advantage of BLU-50 is fanless and possibility of battery power.

Very nice!  The BLU 50 doesn’t have CobraNet so I won’t be able to try that which is fine.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 6 Mar 2018, 09:10 pm
The big advantage of BLU-50 is fanless and possibility of battery power.
Fanless is exactly why I bought it, but I still had to dim all those flashing LEDs :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Mar 2018, 10:29 pm
Fanless is exactly why I bought it, but I still had to dim all those flashing LEDs :thumb:
+1


My "Dims" are going to block it all out! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 10 Apr 2018, 06:04 pm
Finally got my amps for my setup to go along with the BSS.  Look forward to getting them all put together soon.   :D
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Jun 2018, 03:57 am
After some amp testing and swapping I've settled on four channels of the Hypex NCore NC502MP.  Absolutely stellar! 

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 6 Jun 2018, 04:28 am
So you're using Ncore setup like the Crown, through DSP?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Jun 2018, 10:56 am
So you're using Ncore setup like the Crown, through DSP?
I’m using the BSS BLU 50 loaded with the M2 tuning and the amps from that.  Make sense? 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Nick77 on 6 Jun 2018, 03:53 pm
After some amp testing and swapping I've settled on four channels of the Hypex NCore NC502MP.  Absolutely stellar!

Jason I was under the impression you had settled on the AS1200 amps, looks like the Hypex kicked the Crown and AS1200 to the curb??
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 6 Jun 2018, 04:38 pm
I’m using the BSS BLU 50 loaded with the M2 tuning and the amps from that.  Make sense?

Yes, exactly how I imagined.

That's interesting to note the sound is so good with another amp(s).
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Jun 2018, 04:54 pm
Jason I was under the impression you had settled on the AS1200 amps, looks like the Hypex kicked the Crown and AS1200 to the curb??
Well, I did until I tried the Hypex NC502MP amps!  The Crown is a great amp, however, it's not a secret that it has fans and they're noisy.  I don't have a separate space for the Crown so going fan-less was inevitable.  Also, I didn't see me having that space for a few years if ever with my changed lifestyle. 


Probably should add the chain:
2 ch Setup:
Motorola Modem sb6141> Emo Systems EN-70HD > (5) eero > Synology 1813+ (DSM 6.1), 4TB Seagate NAS Drives, 4GB RAM & Zero Surge & APC XS BX1000G/backup to Synology DX513) > Emo Systems EN-60KDS  > Roon > PS Audio DirectStream with Bridge II > BSS BLU 50 > (2) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBLM2 Master Reference
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Jun 2018, 04:56 pm
Yes, exactly how I imagined.

That's interesting to note the sound is so good with another amp(s).
Is it really though?  The tuning for the speaker is identical and according to BSS the BLU 50 does have more HP than the Crown so there's no loss there.  As for the amp, the Hypex is a properly designed piece with plenty of power for my room so I'm not shocked there either. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JLM on 21 Jul 2018, 02:38 pm
Probably should add the chain:
2 ch Setup:
Motorola Modem sb6141> Emo Systems EN-70HD > (5) eero > Synology 1813+ (DSM 6.1), 4TB Seagate NAS Drives, 4GB RAM & Zero Surge & APC XS BX1000G/backup to Synology DX513) > Emo Systems EN-60KDS  > Roon > PS Audio DirectStream with Bridge II > BSS BLU 50 > (2) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBLM2 Master Reference


Where do your subs fit in?

Once I receive your babies, my system could be a simple as: MacBook > DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core > JBL 708P & sub(s)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 21 Jul 2018, 02:41 pm
Where do your subs fit in?

Once I receive your babies, my system could be a simple as: MacBook > DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core > JBL 708P & searing the sub(s)
He's not using subs with the M2's now.

You made a great buy in the 708p's. Having owned M2's myself, hearing the 708p's at Rich's GTG was a treat. Amazing value in active speakers and oh so close to the bigger M2's. Enjoy!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JLM on 21 Jul 2018, 07:53 pm
He's not using subs with the M2's now.

You made a great buy in the 708p's. Having owned M2's myself, hearing the 708p's at Rich's GTG was a treat. Amazing value in active speakers and oh so close to the bigger M2's. Enjoy!

Thanks TomS.  Gawd the 708Ps are cute (tiny) compared to the M2s, but prefer monitors that I can height (ear level) adjust and bass adjust with sub(s).  Will try them out by themselves, then hook up my CSS XBL^2 sealed sub (8ft x 13ft x 21ft room, near/mid-field setup) with DSPeaker (which I preferred over Schiit Freya, NOS tubes, and Gungnir MB).  Based on all accounts tempted to venture into 4 matching subs.  But got some speakers to sell off first before my room turns into a warehouse.   :oops:

Wow that was a lot of cost, effort, and waiting to walk away from those huge subs.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: OzarkTom on 22 Jul 2018, 12:53 am
Has anyone here heard the JBL 306 MkII or the 308p's? Somewhat close to the 708P's? Difference?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JLM on 23 Jul 2018, 10:21 am
Has anyone here heard the JBL 306 MkII or the 308p's? Somewhat close to the 708P's? Difference?

Don't think 708P owners want to know if their close.   :oops:

I had the original 305s here for a week a couple of years ago, tremendous value but didn't spark much of a yearning.  At 16+ to 1 ratio price difference I'll be surprised if there's more than a vague family resemblance.  But I'll keep those 305s in mind when listening to the 708Ps.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 23 Jul 2018, 01:56 pm
If you look back to the first part of this thread there was reference to a great deal of similarity between this family of speakers. While at Harman the room we were using had 3 series, 7 series and M2 all setup. There was a switching device that allowed instanteous change between each speaker being played. The similar quality between all three series was remarkable. Yes, there were differences between the three but it wasnt as much as one would think. The requirements of the situation should drive ones purchase. If lower budget without the need for excessive output is needed then stick with the 3 series. Size, simplicity and greater output then get the7 series. All out assault without any limitations then get the M2.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: OzarkTom on 23 Jul 2018, 04:28 pm
If you look back to the first part of this thread there was reference to a great deal of similarity between this family of speakers. While at Harman the room we were using had 3 series, 7 series and M2 all setup. There was a switching device that allowed instanteous change between each speaker being played. The similar quality between all three series was remarkable. Yes, there were differences between the three but it wasnt as much as one would think. The requirements of the situation should drive ones purchase. If lower budget without the need for excessive output is needed then stick with the 3 series. Size, simplicity and greater output then get the7 series. All out assault without any limitations then get the M2.
 

Sounds like the 306 MkII would work fine for me since I don't crank my system very loud. It would also save some bucks. :thumb:

Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Jul 2018, 11:53 pm
He's not using subs with the M2's now.

You made a great buy in the 708p's. Having owned M2's myself, hearing the 708p's at Rich's GTG was a treat. Amazing value in active speakers and oh so close to the bigger M2's. Enjoy!
That's kinda correct!



If you look back to the first part of this thread there was reference to a great deal of similarity between this family of speakers. While at Harman the room we were using had 3 series, 7 series and M2 all setup. There was a switching device that allowed instanteous change between each speaker being played. The similar quality between all three series was remarkable. Yes, there were differences between the three but it wasnt as much as one would think. The requirements of the situation should drive ones purchase. If lower budget without the need for excessive output is needed then stick with the 3 series. Size, simplicity and greater output then get the7 series. All out assault without any limitations then get the M2.
The only thing I'll add to this is that while the three speakers are scarily similar in the family, physics is the limiting factor and that's important to remember.  The fact that these are all so close in terms of tone shouldn't be a surprise since the compression driver and waveguide is the same as it's just scaled down.  This is typically very rare in typical speakers.  And the waveguide is a real waveguide not some beveled piece of MDF around a driver like many claim to be a waveguide.  These speakers have real engineering! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JLM on 28 Jul 2018, 10:02 am
Having listened to the 305s (originals) for a week and now the 708Ps for 3 days here in my acoustic study will say the 708Ps are much more dynamic, more detailed, image better, and are more ruthless to poor recordings.  Which makes the 708Ps very serious working monitors, not speakers to be ignored or passed over for casually entertaining.  Just the size alone tells you that they mean business, the overall sonic presentation is not for light weight sissies.  The large waveguide, permanently mounted woofer grill, and matte black finish with built-in side handles gives warning to all that up front.  These project sound into a large space like not nothing I've heard before at home.  They deserve the very best ancillaries and demand your attention.

The 305 fits into typical audiophile sensibilities much easier (except for the amount of bass coming from such a small box).  Less affronting of dynamic swings, they lack surgical accuracy, with only 'mortal' sound staging, and of course their 'acceptable' size/cost make them easier to dismiss, but do represent a supreme value in a mid-fi setup on desktop or smaller room. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 2 Aug 2018, 06:53 pm
Excellent. Tell us more.  :thumb:

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: TomS on 2 Aug 2018, 07:01 pm
Perhaps a new thread for 708P review thoughts, since this one is about M2's and a trip to hear them.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JLM on 2 Aug 2018, 08:02 pm
Agreed Tom but have patience, I promise to issue a review of my experience with the 708P speakers.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Aug 2018, 12:10 am
I look forward to your review for sure!


I'm hosting a GTG this weekend with the M2's.  Most have heard them though.  Maybe some of the attendees will share their opinion. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 2 Nov 2018, 03:22 pm
So has anybody from this thread held on to their M2’s? Seems quite a few have already moved on in the last year or so of having them.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 2 Nov 2018, 03:40 pm
I have.

A better question may be why those who have sold did so?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 2 Nov 2018, 03:44 pm
I have.

A better question may be why those who have sold did so?

I thought about asking in that way but I know some don’t like to explain why, especially when trying to sell them.

I thought I had seen you sell your M2’s, so you still have them?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 2 Nov 2018, 04:38 pm
I have mine.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: bernardo on 2 Nov 2018, 04:39 pm
Until you sell them, right?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: bernardo on 2 Nov 2018, 04:42 pm
Sorry Jason - I see that you have removed them from the Trading Post.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 2 Nov 2018, 07:58 pm
I thought about asking in that way but I know some don’t like to explain why, especially when trying to sell them.

I thought I had seen you sell your M2’s, so you still have them?

Yes, I had them listed for a bit. I took part in my own in house trial with the Salon2 and M2. This was after I had taken part in the more controlled trial posted on AVS. I couldn’t keep all so I was trying to sell my M2 prior to the Salon arrival. The Salon was what I preferred during the blind test. When I ended up owning both for quite a while I ended up setting each side by side and having extended play with both. My preference during this time was for the M2.  Both are fantastic speakers. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: thereisnospoon on 28 Nov 2018, 01:50 am
This is interesting. So you were at John's comparo? Do you have any thoughts as to why you think you preferred the Salon at John's, but not at home. Room factors? Listening distance? Directivity differences? Longer time to evaluate?

I've owned my M2's for over 4 years and I've done comparos of the M2's with other speakers in my room and also hauled them around to other rooms for comparos as well. The M2's will brutally expose flaws in lesser speakers, but I never had the chance to compare them against a similar caliber speaker.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: thereisnospoon on 28 Nov 2018, 02:21 pm
Yes, I had them listed for a bit. I took part in my own in house trial with the Salon2 and M2. This was after I had taken part in the more controlled trial posted on AVS. I couldn’t keep all so I was trying to sell my M2 prior to the Salon arrival. The Salon was what I preferred during the blind test. When I ended up owning both for quite a while I ended up setting each side by side and having extended play with both. My preference during this time was for the M2.  Both are fantastic speakers.

Meant to quote above. I'm assuming editing posts is only possible after "x" number of posts? Either that or I'm blind and can't figure it out :)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: goskers on 28 Nov 2018, 03:01 pm
Hello,

Yes, I did partake in the event held at John’s house. Why the difference overall I am not sure. We discussed this at length after the event was completed. I was a bit surprised at the ease which you were able to discern between the two.

Some items which were discussed was mono vs stereo as well as room interaction. The M2 appeared as more of a point source where the S2 came off with a slightly larger image size and a bit more diffused.

While doing my own stereo testing the main differences were pin point imaging and detail retrieval without becoming strident on the M2. Again, what truly drives these differences is back to being an unknown to me. My main takeaway is that speakers measuring well in Harman’s tests will generally be perceived as natural and preferred versus those which do not measure well to the criteria. Their measurement criteria has been shown to have a strong correlation to positive attributes in regards to sound quality.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Blackmore on 28 Nov 2018, 04:46 pm
To "thereisnospoon" you need one more post before the whole site opens up.  Then you'll be able to quote, PM, etc.  Thanks for joining us at AudioCircle.

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Nov 2018, 07:44 pm
I have personally listened to the S2's twice and quite frankly do not get them.  They sound good, certainly not M2 good though.  This was at two different places with very different electronics too. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Tyson on 28 Nov 2018, 08:35 pm
Yes, I had them listed for a bit. I took part in my own in house trial with the Salon2 and M2. This was after I had taken part in the more controlled trial posted on AVS. I couldn’t keep all so I was trying to sell my M2 prior to the Salon arrival. The Salon was what I preferred during the blind test. When I ended up owning both for quite a while I ended up setting each side by side and having extended play with both. My preference during this time was for the M2.  Both are fantastic speakers. 

Don't you know that blind tests are definitive?  Obviously your preference for the M2 at home is just placebo effect.  If you disagree then you are just in denial!!!

DBT Rulz!!!!

[/sarcasm]
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: thereisnospoon on 29 Nov 2018, 12:18 am
To "thereisnospoon" you need one more post before the whole site opens up.  Then you'll be able to quote, PM, etc.  Thanks for joining us at AudioCircle.

Thank you! I figured as much, but also couldn't rule out my own ignorance :).
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: thereisnospoon on 1 Dec 2018, 02:23 am
Hello,

Yes, I did partake in the event held at John’s house. Why the difference overall I am not sure. We discussed this at length after the event was completed. I was a bit surprised at the ease which you were able to discern between the two.

Some items which were discussed was mono vs stereo as well as room interaction. The M2 appeared as more of a point source where the S2 came off with a slightly larger image size and a bit more diffused.

While doing my own stereo testing the main differences were pin point imaging and detail retrieval without becoming strident on the M2. Again, what truly drives these differences is back to being an unknown to me. My main takeaway is that speakers measuring well in Harman’s tests will generally be perceived as natural and preferred versus those which do not measure well to the criteria. Their measurement criteria has been shown to have a strong correlation to positive attributes in regards to sound quality.

"detail retrieval without becoming strident on the M2"

Yep, my system consists of JBL 708 and 705's for the surrounds and this is also what separates the M2's from the 7 series, as good as they are.

The M2 is a very special speaker IMO.

I go by gooddoc on other forums, I think we may have chatted in the past  :green:. I've found your journey very interesting indeed! When I got my M2's it was close to their release so there was literally nothing but measurements to go by. Consumers weren't really buying them at the time and there were ZERO owner reviews. I do wish I had the opportunity to visit JBL!, but I did get great customer service from JBL Pro at the time, that's for sure.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 8 Dec 2018, 07:08 pm
In one word, wow.


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187741)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187742) 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 8 Dec 2018, 07:22 pm
Nice flight case  :wink:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 8 Dec 2018, 07:48 pm
I haven't followed this thread (or forum) in a while.  Still a happy M2 owner, still don't long for more...

Nice to see you here Gooddoc! 

jtwrace, are you going to the processor and your own amp route? 

Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 8 Dec 2018, 09:13 pm

jtwrace, are you going to the processor and your own amp route?
Dac > BSS BLU 50 > (2) Hypex NC502MP > (2) JBL M2
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 8 Dec 2018, 09:51 pm
I've been asked so I'll just post here.


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187750)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187751) 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 9 Dec 2018, 12:33 am
let me know how you like the BSS BLU 50 and your own amp in comparison.   I was tempted originally
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Dec 2018, 12:38 am
let me know how you like the BSS BLU 50 and your own amp in comparison.   I was tempted originally
I've been using that combo for months now and really do like it. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 9 Dec 2018, 12:40 am
no more fan noise as well.   I don't notice the fan noise because I have a free standing rackmount case a good 20' away from the seating position that seems to dampen the noise below the ambient noise of living in an apartment high rise in the city.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Dec 2018, 12:41 am
no more fan noise as well.   I don't notice the fan noise because I have a free standing rackmount case a good 20' away from the seating position that seems to dampen the noise below the ambient noise of living in an apartment high rise in the city.
Fan noise was the main reason I did it. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 9 Dec 2018, 12:43 am
I figured.  If you had a really quiet room and didn't put the amp in a case I'd imagine you could hear it, but in my case I really can't nor can anyone who has visited my place (quite a few locals have).
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Dec 2018, 12:46 am
I figured.  If you had a really quiet room and didn't put the amp in a case I'd imagine you could hear it, but in my case I really can't nor can anyone who has visited my place (quite a few locals have).
It never really bothered me until I tried fan-less amps then I couldn't go back.  I was going to spend the money for a custom cover and just bailed all together. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 9 Dec 2018, 12:49 am
I get it. 

I also wanted to ask, it might have been in this thread previously (haven't read, so apologies), but are you still using the big JBL sub with the M2s for 2channel (you are 2ch only?)?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Dec 2018, 01:04 am
I get it. 

I also wanted to ask, it might have been in this thread previously (haven't read, so apologies), but are you still using the big JBL sub with the M2s for 2channel (you are 2ch only?)?
Never had the SUB18, that picture was just from when I visited Harman.  Yes, 2ch only! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JoshK on 9 Dec 2018, 01:13 am
ok, guess I always associated you with it cause of the photo.

I wouldn't get that sub anyway, I'd do a distributed bass solution for even bass in the room be it 2ch or mch.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Dec 2018, 01:22 am
ok, guess I always associated you with it cause of the photo.

I wouldn't get that sub anyway, I'd do a distributed bass solution for even bass in the room be it 2ch or mch.
Yes, of course.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Molham on 4 Jan 2019, 07:44 am
Right.  FWIW, the two top engineers at JBL recommended the DCi.  The one uses DCi on his personal system with M2's and obviously he can have anything he wants.  I'll also add that after my specific amp questions there was no doubt that the DCi was the way to go unless I was into spending more money (which I was more than willing to do) that was unnecessary.  Also important to note that JBL wouldn't go through the process of tuning files for different amps if it wasn't sufficient. The way they do it is quite resourceful so they wouldn't waste their time if it didn't meet specs.
Great thanks to you man!!!
I've been having my M2 for over 2 years without being able to listen to them. After buying them, I got some shortage and couldn't put $6K in dual ITECH's
and was still hoping to get that cash soon.
I just came across this DCI and did some research which brought me to this thread.
I just I can't express my happiness to know that I can finally have my M2 to sing for me after long wait...
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Jul 2020, 02:30 am
Great thanks to you man!!!
I've been having my M2 for over 2 years without being able to listen to them. After buying them, I got some shortage and couldn't put $6K in dual ITECH's
and was still hoping to get that cash soon.
I just came across this DCI and did some research which brought me to this thread.
I just I can't express my happiness to know that I can finally have my M2 to sing for me after long wait...
Great!   :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Jul 2020, 03:16 pm
My only change is the dac.  Now have the Topping D90
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: kingdeezie on 28 Jul 2020, 06:04 pm
My only change is the dac.  Now have the Topping D90

Didn’t you have the Mola DAC before?? Is the Topping superior, or do you just find the differences negligible?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Jul 2020, 06:32 pm
Didn’t you have the Mola DAC before?? Is the Topping superior, or do you just find the differences negligible?
Yep I did.  Well, at $600 the D90 is shocking and quite frankly I can't justify the extra cost.  As you know, digital moves, well, as fast as digital and over the last few years things have really progressed.  The only thing missing is the Ethernet input so I use an Allo USBridge which is no biggie.  Sonically it's delicious. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Aug 2020, 07:11 pm
New sub build pics coming soon.   :green:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 12:47 pm
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213753)
Starting assembly
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 04:46 pm
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213754)
All assembled - flat pack is nice and MDF still sucks
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 04:51 pm
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213755)
Still looks so tiny (it's not) compared to my other sidewall DIY sub   :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:07 pm
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213756)
Had to install the Neutrik connector.  Thanks to TomS for the suggestion of the 2" Forstner bit. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:16 pm
Next was some sanding.  I chose to use an orbital sander with 80 grit to knock the overhang of the baffle off and really get the MDF smooth.  As my previous painting training has taught me the prep work is the dirtiest and certainly the most important for the final finish.  I used BIN Primer that I had tinted as a white base with black Duratex going over didn't make any sense to me.  I did one coat of BIN then sanded with 120 grit and repeated.


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213757)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:23 pm
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213758)
I like to finish the inside.  If it was ever sold and someone opened it, I like it to look finished.  Also, it really cuts down on the possible MDF dust and just makes it so much nicer to me.  How crappy is it to open a speaker and see it raw and cheesy inside?  Yuck.  Doesn't take much more effort to make it look a bit nicer and an advantage of diy since you're not against the Excel Sheet of the bottom line.


 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:28 pm
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213759)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213760)


2-3 coats of Duratex provides an excellent finish.  I have found that while you put it on heavy, it really takes rolling it in all directions to smooth it out evenly.  Then for the final finish, you slowly roll one direction with no pressure with 50% overlap.  No zebra stripes and a consistent texture.   
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:31 pm
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213761)
 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:36 pm
Next up was waiting a few days for the Duratex to harden (takes up to 7 days) enough to handle the cabinet.  Spent lots of time on the water during this time.   :D
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:40 pm
I really dislike drivers being held in with wood screws.  If you ever need to remove a driver more than once, the hole is usually buggered up as it's not really made for multiple disassembly.  So how does one deal with that?  Tee Nuts!  This is how I use them...


First you need to purchase some quality tee nuts as these are meant for a permanent installation.  I will be using SHCS as my finish bolt to hold the 45 lb 18" driver in. 


So you get the Tee Nuts and some basic grade 5 bolts with washers along with PL Adhesive as seen below.  See where this is going? 


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213762)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:42 pm
Now this is very important.  If you get the PL on the threads of the Tee Nut, you're screwed!   :nono:


So I put 3 dabs around the side of the Tee Nut like below. 


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213763)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:47 pm
So the little teeth on the Tee Nut are obviously meant to penetrate the substrate - MDF in this case.  If you hammer them in, the teeth get bent and mangled and usually cause more harm than good and also put the Tee Nut in crooked which can lead to cross-threaded bolts.  That is a nightmare!


So using those grade 5 bolts and washers you "draw" the Tee Nut up into the substrate.  DO NOT tighten too tight, just enough to squeeze the extra PL out and hold it.  Remember: The PL is really what is holding the Tee Nut, not those goofy teeth.  I personally like to leave the bolts in for 48 hrs to make absolute certain the PL has fully cured. 



 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213764)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:50 pm
Now you might be wondering what it looks like underneath?  Of course, I'll show you a terrible pic! 


See how it squeezed out evenly?  Now you might want to touch it and remove the extra.  Do not!  Why?  You run the risk of getting it on the bolt and not even knowing that and then when you go to remove them, you realize what happened.  :o :slap: :bawl: :finger:    



 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213765)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:53 pm
Next was to solder the Belden 1313A to the Neutrik speakON and install into the cabinet. 


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213891)

Stuff it!
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213897)

Install the driver!
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213892)


I was confident that it was all correct as I always check each step; however, it's so much easier to check now as a complete assembly...
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213893) 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Aug 2020, 05:53 pm
And finally the completed sub with a measurement:
 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213895)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213896)


 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Folsom on 29 Aug 2020, 02:19 pm
What driver is that?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 29 Aug 2020, 07:05 pm
Looking good Jason!  :thumb:

Glad to see you have the room volume to try big subs again.

I tried PL on small t-nuts (256 of them!  :o ) but it didnt stick well to the zinc plating.
Bob Smith Insta-Cure+ medium CA glue worked much better for me on t-nuts.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 Aug 2020, 08:53 pm
What driver is that?

Jason can correct me but I believe he built sub(s) with the Ciare 18.00 SW and the Dayton UM18-22 drivers. The quad ported appears to be the Ciare and the sealed box perhaps the Dayton. Both excellent but for different purposes. I am sure the Ciare has excellent midbass wallop and attack. The quad ported enclosure is nice cause he could potentially play with the LF tuning using sealed, ported or “in between” if he uses port plugs.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 29 Aug 2020, 10:16 pm
That Ciare has particularly high mechanical Q, iirc?  :thumb:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 Aug 2020, 11:20 pm
That Ciare has particularly high mechanical Q, iirc?  :thumb:

Indeed it does. The 8 ohm version has a BL around 32-35 T-M. That’s quite a bit for an 18 inch woofer.  I don’t think Josh Ricci of Databass has tested it yet but I am sure it’s a fine choice.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 30 Aug 2020, 01:20 pm
Jason can correct me but I believe he built sub(s) with the Ciare 18.00 SW and the Dayton UM18-22 drivers. The quad ported appears to be the Ciare and the sealed box perhaps the Dayton. Both excellent but for different purposes. I am sure the Ciare has excellent midbass wallop and attack. The quad ported enclosure is nice cause he could potentially play with the LF tuning using sealed, ported or “in between” if he uses port plugs.

Best,
Anand.
This is indeed 100% correct. 




I tried PL on small t-nuts (256 of them!  :o ) but it didnt stick well to the zinc plating.
Bob Smith Insta-Cure+ medium CA glue worked much better for me on t-nuts.
Strange, never had an issue. 



Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 30 Aug 2020, 02:25 pm
Here is a quick measurement of the Ciare


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213813)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 31 Aug 2020, 07:41 pm
Post 481 & 482 above complete the build    :thumb:


Now time for the "fun" part...
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: brj on 5 Sep 2020, 07:58 pm
Now you might be wondering what it looks like underneath?  Of course, I'll show you a terrible pic!

Nicely done!  Any chance you took a pic of the front after install, or remember how close to flush the top edge of the T-nut was to the front face of the MDF?

(I'd debated something like this when assembling my semi-custom Rythmiks, but since the baffle had a double layer of MDF and I couldn't find "taller" T-nuts - and I wanted to minimize handling for the sake of the gloss black finish - I opted to harden the holes with CA adhesive instead.  That turned out to be too much for the supplied screws and several sheared during install.  It was agony to extract them and recover, especially as I was trying desperately to protect the finish the entire time.  If I ever have to go back in, I'll revert to T-nuts or similar even if I can't find tall ones!)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Sep 2020, 12:29 am
I used tall Tee Nuts and the top edge would've been ~.500" from the baffle step to the top of the Tee Nut. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 24 May 2021, 12:30 am
My M2's have found their new location in the new room.  I thought they sounded good before, now, OMG!   :singing:


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224855)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: richidoo on 24 May 2021, 04:04 am
Congrats on the new digs!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: quailpark on 3 Sep 2021, 12:11 am
My M2's have found their new location in the new room.  I thought they sounded good before, now, OMG!   :singing:

How far do you have them separated and from the wall behind the speakers?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Sep 2021, 01:46 am
How far do you have them separated and from the wall behind the speakers?
~4.5'
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 3 Sep 2021, 10:13 am
Dac > BSS BLU 50 > (2) Hypex NC502MP > (2) JBL M2

The BLU 50 doesn’t have digital inputs so I understand why you have a DAC preceding it in the chain.  However it does seem counter-intuitive to have a DAC conversion only to be followed by ADC and then another set of DAC conversions.  Have you tried other approaches / chains with the M2s and if so what are your thoughts on the differences?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Sep 2021, 12:18 pm
The BLU 50 doesn’t have digital inputs so I understand why you have a DAC preceding it in the chain.  However it does seem counter-intuitive to have a DAC conversion only to be followed by ADC and then another set of DAC conversions.  Have you tried other approaches / chains with the M2s and if so what are your thoughts on the differences?
Other than the DCi, no.  That will change in time though. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 3 Sep 2021, 12:32 pm
Other than the DCi, no.  That will change in time though.

I’d be interested to hear your plans.   After reading Mitch’s articles about AudioLense I’ve become convinced that it is something I’ve got to try.  I’ve also read that someone has used the full AudioLense functionality on the M2s to great effect. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Sep 2021, 03:43 pm
I’d be interested to hear your plans.   After reading Mitch’s articles about AudioLense I’ve become convinced that it is something I’ve got to try.  I’ve also read that someone has used the full AudioLense functionality on the M2s to great effect.
That's what I'm in the process of doing.  8 channels of fun.   :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 6 Sep 2021, 04:04 pm
Great minds  :D.         I recall now that I’ve seen you post on the AL forum.  I’ve just bought an RME UFX to do my AL measurements and to ultimately be my multi channel DAC.

DallasJustice is someone who is using AL on his M2s - he’s posted on ASR about it.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Sep 2021, 04:47 pm
Great minds  :D .         I recall now that I’ve seen you post on the AL forum.  I’ve just bought an RME UFX to do my AL measurements and to ultimately be my multi channel DAC.

DallasJustice is someone who is using AL on his M2s - he’s posted on ASR about it.
Cool.  I'm going another direction for dac...Motu will work well.  Building a NUCi7 as we speak. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: JDUBS on 7 Sep 2021, 07:21 pm
jtwrace, how are you going to be doing the 8 channels of amplification while not using the "cracked" (lol) settings that have been posted?

-Jim
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 7 Sep 2021, 07:28 pm
jtwrace, how are you going to be doing the 8 channels of amplification while not using the "cracked" (lol) settings that have been posted?

-Jim
Yeah, screw that!  I looked and read and nope, not for me.  I usually know how that ends.   :duh:


I built a NUCi7 last night running W10 / RoonServer (Core) which will go direct via USB to the 8 channel dac.  Done. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Sep 2021, 01:02 am
JBL M2 system officially using Audiolense XO (https://juicehifi.com/) with 4 subs.  :green:


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230253)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 28 Sep 2021, 08:20 am
@JW. Will be interested to hear how you think the AL set up compares to your previous one.  Please do feedback to us
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Sep 2021, 11:46 am
@JW. Will be interested to hear how you think the AL set up compares to your previous one.  Please do feedback to us
There's not much to say...it's great! 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 28 Sep 2021, 12:20 pm
Did you set up AL on your own or did you engage Mitch to advise?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Sep 2021, 12:29 pm
Did you set up AL on your own or did you engage Mitch to advise?
Yes, I used Mitch's services of creating the filter after I setup and took all the measurements. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 28 Sep 2021, 12:33 pm
Yup that’s what I will do too, with the emphasis on teaching me how to use it .
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 28 Sep 2021, 12:48 pm
Yup that’s what I will do too, with the emphasis on teaching me how to use it .
He's very good at that!  These types of things can be extremely frustrating if you just dive in and run into issues (which I did) so it's helpful to have a pair of eyes looking at what you will likely not see.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 Sep 2021, 11:31 am
Congrats! You’ve eliminated all needless A/D and D/A conversions plus more! Should sound spellbinding!!  :thumb:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 29 Sep 2021, 11:50 am
Do you have an analog source JT?  If so I’d be interested to hear if you notice any deterioration in SQ as a consequence of digitising the signal path.  Mitch has said that the sound of his TT was unaffected . . .
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Sep 2021, 12:17 pm
Do you have an analog source JT?  If so I’d be interested to hear if you notice any deterioration in SQ as a consequence of digitising the signal path.  Mitch has said that the sound of his TT was unaffected . . .
No analog and I don't see how the path of analog could be worse by this.  People need to get away from the preconceived notion that "digital" means that it will sound like, uh, digital or robot like.  It sounds pure and "perfect" which is what we all should strive for.  However, this does give you the ability to tailor the sound if you want to stray from the Harman curve.  If more audiophiles would learn to calibrate their ears to what is actually correct, nobody would go back to a distortion fest. 


I can't put enough emphasis on what time alignment of all the drivers (8 in my case) and teh excess phase correction does.  I've never heard anything like this.  Ever.

For those that say time alignment and phase isn't audible, they've never heard Audiolense corrected them. 

Then on top of it, no capacitors, resistors, coils and all the junk that makes a passive crossover.  The path is truly pristine.  This is the future! 


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230306)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230307) 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: Letitroll98 on 29 Sep 2021, 12:25 pm
Pat McGinty at the old Meadowlark Audio agrees with you completely.  He's said that the only reason he got back into speakers was the ability to now control these parameters in the digital domain.  His model is somewhat different than Harmon building cost no object custom systems, but the idea is the same.  Both of these approaches are very expensive, any forecasts on trickle down to lesser products?
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 29 Sep 2021, 12:35 pm
You are speaking to the converted with me JT, hence my firm intention to deploy AL once my system is ready to receive it.  My views on DSP were coloured by my experiences with MiniDSP products, but Mitch’s articles persuaded me that AL is in another league and that I should put aside my prejudices.  It’s therefore great to hear you being just as enthusiastic as he is about what AL can do.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Sep 2021, 12:51 pm
Pat McGinty at the old Meadowlark Audio agrees with you completely.  He's said that the only reason he got back into speakers was the ability to now control these parameters in the digital domain.  His model is somewhat different than Harmon building cost no object custom systems, but the idea is the same.  Both of these approaches are very expensive, any forecasts on trickle down to lesser products?
I'm not certain exactly what you're asking.  Audiolense can be used on any driver that you can split from the xover and run the drivers direct to an amp.  Does that help? 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Sep 2021, 12:52 pm
You are speaking to the converted with me JT, hence my firm intention to deploy AL once my system is ready to receive it.  My views on DSP were coloured by my experiences with MiniDSP products, but Mitch’s articles persuaded me that AL is in another league and that I should put aside my prejudices.  It’s therefore great to hear you being just as enthusiastic as he is about what AL can do.
Yes, miniDSP and Audiolense is totally different.  Sadly, people group certain things together while not fully understanding how something works.  Waveguides was one of them probably 10 years ago.  Now, everyone claims to have a waveguide.   :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 5 Oct 2021, 02:29 am
In 2019, I purchased Audiolense XO to try. Long story short, I couldn't get it to work due to an odd error I kept getting. Fast forward to 7 months ago when I interviewed Mitch on my podcast here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1n8o7Wv4LQ). The more we talked, the more I wanted to try Audiolense. After the podcast Mitch asked me if I was going to try it and I explained my previous issue. He mentioned to me that anomaly was just solved a month prior. 

For the next few months I had to decide on how I wanted to handle the MCH DAC and Roon Core setup. I built a W10 NUCi7 connected directly to a Motu UltraLite Mk5.

Mitch charges a modest $500 for the filter creation and also helping you along the way with what issue(s) might come along. For most of us, time is of the essence and a positive result is critical so I thought it would be worth paying the money to have someone hold my hand through the process and hopefully not ruin anything either thus making the $500 minimal. 

Mitch might be the most patient man I've ever dealt with on so many levels. He taught me how to count to 8, using 0-7 for routing (you might be surprised how much of a mind f*** this is) among a timing issue during measurement I had. My point is simple, if you're already to this point, just pay the money and make your life a bit easier and know that you have a highly experienced user creating filters for you. The cherry on top is at the end he sends you the file to create your own along with the directions to do so.

If you've made it this far you're asking how does it sound, right? Well, look at the measurements! Translation - Amazing! After about 6 filters I settled on one that I preferred. I can't say enough about Mitch and Bernt of what they have accomplished.

This is not your typical Digital Room Correction (DRC) where phase and timing is NOT corrected. This is SOTA digital crossovers, frequency correction and true time domain correction which now make up my stereo 4 way digital XO system.

https://juicehifi.com/ (https://juicehifi.com/)

https://accuratesound.ca/ (https://accuratesound.ca/)

www.roomeqwizard.com (http://www.roomeqwizard.com/)

Audiolense
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230426)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230427)


Then I was able to confirm with REW


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230428)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230429)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230430)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230431) 


W10 i7 NUC > Roon (Audiolense Filter) > Motu UlatraLite mk5 > (2) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference +4 subs
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 5 Oct 2021, 08:03 am
@jtwrace.  Great post.  I don’t need any encouragement to go the same route but it is always nice to get affirmation you have made a good decision!
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 5 Oct 2021, 01:09 pm
@jtwrace.  Great post.  I don’t need any encouragement to go the same route but it is always nice to get affirmation you have made a good decision!
Then do it!   :lol:
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: studley on 5 Oct 2021, 03:25 pm
As soon as the major works on our house are complete I can assure you I will be right on it :)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 7 Jan 2022, 02:16 pm
I decided to change the rear subs.  These are the new results which aren't bad.   :green:


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234933)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234934) 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 7 Jan 2022, 03:38 pm
"Looks" good.  :wink:
Reminds me of https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/an-enticing-marketing-story-theory-without-measurement.7127/page-32#post-242115 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/an-enticing-marketing-story-theory-without-measurement.7127/page-32#post-242115).
Btw, how does it sound to your 2 ears/brain binaural hearing?

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 7 Jan 2022, 04:01 pm
how does it sound to your 2 ears/brain binaural hearing?

cheers,

AJ
Phenomenal. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: nc42acc on 7 Jan 2022, 05:17 pm
Wow Jason! What are your room dimensions if I may ask?


I decided to change the rear subs.  These are the new results which aren't bad.   :green:


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234933)


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234934)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 7 Jan 2022, 05:26 pm
Phenomenal.
Good for you! All that matters.
Subs in mono?

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 7 Jan 2022, 06:35 pm
Wow Jason! What are your room dimensions if I may ask?
Wow is right Marty, never mind the dimensions, it's near perfectly reflective of a non-coincident monopolar box radiator!
Consider, his M2 have near perfect native (anechoic) "direct" response (top Black line), lateral off axis and then a bit of a dip vertical due to non-coincidence (blues and reds):
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234954)
When placed in a more typical room like yours and mine, with varying degrees of reflectivity and lossiness of surfaces, openings, etc regardless of dimensions, measured with a pressure only sensor (no velocities) like an omni mic, at a single spatial position like the listener seat, M2s may look more like this:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234955)
I know, scaaary! To the eyes. And a pressure sensor mic. Luckily, with exception of the peaks <500hz or so, not to 2 ears and a brain. Which very very much unlike the single mic, can separate the "direct" streams from the reflected "sum totals" in the measurement.
To get a near ruler flat slope top to bottom like Jason >500hz or so, one needs a near perfectly reflective room. Or significant distortion of the "direct" native response of the speaker (s). Below 500hz or so, the ears do start to "hear" more like the mic, at least amplitude wise, so cutting those peaks are highly advisable. Filling the voids at that pressure point, where energy is being stored, might be debatable, since elsewhere, spatially, that cannot be. Now of course Jason is using multiple subs, with the EQ, so the averaging has created some smoothing by itself. But most likely by correlating the bass to mono. perfect for pop etc music. For decorrelated bass, like in any acoustic music concert hall, etc, maybe not so much.
Btw, what are your room dimensions?  :wink:

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: nc42acc on 7 Jan 2022, 09:50 pm
AJ
My room is 26’ wide 19’ deep 9’ height. Open to left to kitchen and dining not included in these dimensions.
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: AJinFLA on 8 Jan 2022, 12:23 am
My room is 26’ wide 19’ deep 9’ height.
Lucky you! That is plenty big for great sound.

Open to left to kitchen and dining not included in these dimensions.
Completely open or partial? Asymmetry can sometimes be problematic, lot of "depends on".
Jason shows above that EQ can help greatly!

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 8 Jan 2022, 12:51 am
Wow Jason! What are your room dimensions if I may ask?
It's an odd shaped sized room.  Say 20' x 20' x 9' with some out-coves etc. 
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 8 Jan 2022, 12:55 am
Good for you! All that matters.
Subs in mono?

cheers,

AJ






Feel free to drive 2ish hours north to listen.  Yes, mono.  So Left is 6ch and Right is 6ch and that's why it shows 12 paths.


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234983)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: nc42acc on 8 Jan 2022, 01:49 pm
AJ basically the room is 42’ wide with the speakers centered in the 42’ side. No issues with left or right early reflections. I am thinking of building a ceiling absorption cloud to go over the speakers.


Lucky you! That is plenty big for great sound.
Completely open or partial? Asymmetry can sometimes be problematic, lot of "depends on".
Jason shows above that EQ can help greatly!

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: nc42acc on 8 Jan 2022, 01:50 pm
Jason I sure hope I get to hear your system someday.






Feel free to drive 2ish hours north to listen.  Yes, mono.  So Left is 6ch and Right is 6ch and that's why it shows 12 paths.


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234983)
Title: Re: My Harman (JBL M2) Trip
Post by: jtwrace on 31 Mar 2022, 04:42 pm
I was asked privately if I had RT60 measurements so thought I'd share it here.


 (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239053)


REW Explanation here (https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/graph_rt60.html).