AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Empirical Audio => Topic started by: JPS on 5 Apr 2012, 09:07 pm
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Hi everybody,
I received my Off Ramp 5 at the beginning of this week and am currently burning it in.
It is clearly a very high end interface. Mine has Turboclocks + SPDIF Hynes regulator.
I have been experimenting with various windows players and have found rather significant differences between them, jplay being the best up to now.
16/44.1 sounds very good but upsampled to 24/176.4 via r8brain it is even better.
I'll provide more detailed feedback in the near future.
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As Gil Scott Heron put it; I,m new here, and would like to share my experiences with the Off-Ramp 5 which came in to my system some three weeks ago. You can check out the system elsewhere in this forum, but I am using the HDMI I2S out from a fully loaded O-R 5 to a W4S DAC-2. The a-b testing I have been doing has only been changing the USB cable back and forth under the same conditions. I have played all kinds of music, mostly in 16/44.1 and some in 24/192, using full Amarra. Some Spotify streaming in 320 kbps too. Here is what I found whatever went through:
The most obvious difference I have noticed is that music has more impact with the O-R 5, probably caused by a plentiful bass which sounds louder, wider and more defined. This is almost enough improvement to conclude that this little box is giving me a better sounding system. But there is more to it. The powerful bass also has a slam that makes the music sound huge and also felt in the chest when playing rock and electronica. Tightly tuned kick-drums snaps like clapping hands and are more easily differed from the bass. Guitars and voices sounds warmer and more fullbodied. Clearer too. The highs are smother with a wonderful reproduction of the metallic sounds from crashes and rides. No transients that puts you off.
I can play louder, but doesn´t need too. The greater impact of the sound made me lower the volume by 2 db instead, having the impression of getting the same substance as with the W4S. Even at he lowest possible level on my linestage the sound is rich and engulfing.
The most surprising effect of the O-R 5 was the widening of the soundstage, producing sound effects on some recordings very far out on the sides of the speakers. Never heard that this clearly before. Neither have I heard such a deep soundstage. It was quite stunning to percieve such a perspective that it was giving to voices and different instruments. I must say I really like this improvement - as well as being able to localize the sounds so accurately between the speakers.
When you are focused on listening, you really get rewarded with the O-R 5. It made a substantial improvement to my system. Switching back and forth made me quite sure. It is very good!
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I have used my fully optioned OR4 into my WFS2 when I had one. I noticed all the things you did plus the removal of a freezer like quality in the treble - it was overly clean in my system. The SABER chip is not my favorite - it sounds overly analytic usually to me - but via the Off-Ramp those problems are largely gone - and the detail you hear is certainly exhilarating - perhaps a bit a bit too much for some tastes.
Thanks
Bill
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After some OR5 burn-in, it appears that I am actually getting much better results using jriver media center 17 (WASAPI event-style) than with jplay. It would seem that the latter is trying to avoid buffering data, which I reckon may not be beneficial to asynchronous USB.
I am now considering the purchase of a dedicated laptop and further experimenting with usb cables (I am currently using the 5m belkin gold delivered with the Off Ramp).
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After some OR5 burn-in, it appears that I am actually getting much better results using jriver media center 17 (WASAPI event-style) than with jplay. It would seem that the latter is trying to avoid buffering data, which I reckon may not be beneficial to asynchronous USB.
I am now considering the purchase of a dedicated laptop and further experimenting with usb cables (I am currently using the 5m belkin gold delivered with the Off Ramp).
If you actually need the 5m cable length like I do, then most cables become prohibitively expensive, except for the Polestar. This is what I mostly use now.
Steve N.
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Hi Steve,
I found the following on the web, which seemed interesting to me:
"After the [USB] engineers made their decision about the maximum cable length, they used it directly in the specification to limit parameters which have physical properties. One of those properties is the cable delay. As you might know electricity travels almost by the speed of light through a cable, but it still takes some time to travel through a cable from one side to the other. This maximum delay time has been defined as 18 nsec for the low-speed USB 1.1 connections and 26 nsec for the high-speed USB 2.0 connections. The speed of electricity through a copper wire depends on the dielectric coefficient of the surrounding material. Although we don't know this parameter exactly for every USB cable out there, a speed of 65% of the speed of light is quite a realistic guess for a general cable. In that case we get 5.07 meter as maximum cable length for the high speed USB 2.0 connection and 3.51 meter for low speed USB 1.1.
This maximum time delay is fixed in the interface, so even with the highest quality cable made from the best materials which you buy in the most expensive computer shop you wouldn't get a significantly longer maximum USB cable length than with your cheap Chinese copy cable bought from an on-line store. This is because the speed of electricity through a copper cable is defined by simple physics laws which even the most expensive cables cannot change.
You might think that buying the cheapest cable would give the best price-to-quality ratio, but from personal experience I have to warn you. Although these cables may function with some devices, cheaper cables do not always function with all devices. This is because the USB specifications allow quite a large range in properties of driver chips, receiver chips and cables. If you have a cheap driver chip in your computer which is relatively slow and has low output power and want to connect it to peripheral which has also a poorly designed USB interface which operates just within the limits of the specification, an expensive cable might work, where over a cheap cable the communication will fail. Although the maximum distance between your devices will not vary dependent on the quality of the USB cable, the reliability of the connection certainly will."
I am not familiar with error recovery mechanisms within the USB protocol, but considering the above would it be possible that with longer cables and poorer usb ports:
a) data get corrupted
or
b) error recovery generates additional traffic to the point at which it affects the timely delivery of the information
Could this account for differences between USB cables?
On another note, are Locus Design cables still manufactured now that Lee Weiland is no longer with us?
Regards,
JPS
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I am not familiar with error recovery mechanisms within the USB protocol, but considering the above would it be possible that with longer cables and poorer usb ports:
a) data get corrupted
or
b) error recovery generates additional traffic to the point at which it affects the timely delivery of the information
Could this account for differences between USB cables?
I dont believe SQ differences are due to either of these. It's fairly rare to have errors on the cable, and there is no retry or error recovery.
Cable differences are due to either jitter, common-mode noise or RFI or all 3.
On another note, are Locus Design cables still manufactured now that Lee Weiland is no longer with us?
Yes:
http://www.locus-design.com/index.php/about-our-usb-cables (http://www.locus-design.com/index.php/about-our-usb-cables)
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Although the website is still on line, Lee Weiland was a one man operation and there is no one to continue the business.
I sent a message inquiring about the purchase of a Polestar cable. Here is the reply:
No cables have been made since Lee passed away last year (he hand-built everything personally) but there is one Polestar left from his personal stock; it’s a little over five feet (about 64”).
Cost on the unit would be $279 plus shipping. Let me know if you’d like to buy it and we can move forward from there.
Kind Regards,
Josh Heiner
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I too have taken delivery of an offramp 5 with all the enhancements. I am impressed so far. I own most of Steve's USB convertors right from the time he fitted a modified M Audio Transit into my Apogee Big Ben to offramp 3 then 4 & now 5. Also own a USB Pace Car. This latest generation of Offramp is sure impressive.
Maybe it's time for an Overdrive ?
Regards,
Joe Ling
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I too have taken delivery of an offramp 5 with all the enhancements. I am impressed so far. I own most of Steve's USB convertors right from the time he fitted a modified M Audio Transit into my Apogee Big Ben to offramp 3 then 4 & now 5. Also own a USB Pace Car. This latest generation of Offramp is sure impressive.
Maybe it's time for an Overdrive ?
Regards,
Joe Ling
If you think Off-Ramp 5 is good, wait until you hear an Overdrive SE. :thumb:
I expect to sell a lot of these once I get a review or two.
Steve N.
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Hi,
I obtained a significant improvement today by powering the Off Ramp 5 through a JPS Labs Digital AC-X power cord plugged into my Stealth Mini Power Purifier. It was previously powered directly from the wall.
Like for other components, power conditioning/isolation seems very beneficial to the OR5.
Regarding USB cables, as Locus Design is no longer an option, could anybody recommend other brands? Wireworld? Audioquest?
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Hi,
I obtained a significant improvement today by powering the Off Ramp 5 through a JPS Labs Digital AC-X power cord plugged into my Stealth Mini Power Purifier. It was previously powered directly from the wall.
Like for other components, power conditioning/isolation seems very beneficial to the OR5.
This is not too surprising. Common-mode noise through the ground wire is probably being attenuated. This is similar to the effect with my "Short-Block" USB filter.
Regarding USB cables, as Locus Design is no longer an option, could anybody recommend other brands? Wireworld? Audioquest?
No question, Revelation Audio Labs is probably the best out there now.
Steve N.
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No question, Revelation Audio Labs is probably the best out there now.
Steve N.
His response time and customer service is horrible though.
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His response time and customer service is horrible though.
If you buy from my website I have always found the response time acceptable, and he has repaired cables for me as well.
Steve N.
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I dont believe SQ differences are due to either of these. It's fairly rare to have errors on the cable, and there is no retry or error recovery.
Cable differences are due to either jitter, common-mode noise or RFI or all
My thoughts also. I think obvious experimentation helps, but one should be able to find a solid enough cable without paying the lavish crazy prices out there.
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I too have taken delivery of an offramp 5 with all the enhancements. I am impressed so far. I own most of Steve's USB convertors right from the time he fitted a modified M Audio Transit into my Apogee Big Ben to offramp 3 then 4 & now 5. Also own a USB Pace Car. This latest generation of Offramp is sure impressive.
Maybe it's time for an Overdrive ?
Regards,
Joe Ling
Me personally, I'm poor, but I'd obviously go with the SE, but even the Overdrive would do it. You eliminate cables, you go direct, it's all a win win. I prefer as much of an all in one vs. multiple devices, specifically when they sound like Steve's does.
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After a few weeks and a few tweaks (most significant: filtered power cord on OR power supply), I'm getting really great sound from my Off Ramp 5 listening to CDs upsampled to 24/88 with r8brain.
I have listened to albums that I know very well, and they now sound significantly better than they ever have.
I'm hearing details and ambient cues that were previously obscured.
Sounds are fuller and more realistic, instruments are less strident except those that are in real life.
There is a rightness which is quite addictive even though surprising at first because of the difference compared to CD transports. It has become difficult not to listen albums to the end.
The OR5 is definitely a huge leap in terms of accuracy of digital sound reproduction.
Congratulations Steve!
Jean-Pierre
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Regarding USB cables, as Locus Design is no longer an option, could anybody recommend other brands? Wireworld? Audioquest?
I am using the synergistic research Tesla and the difference with an stock cable is quite dramatic. Have not circulated any others through my system though.
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Hi,
I obtained a significant improvement today by powering the Off Ramp 5 through a JPS Labs Digital AC-X power cord plugged into my Stealth Mini Power Purifier. It was previously powered directly from the wall.
Like for other components, power conditioning/isolation seems very beneficial to the OR5.
Whats up with the Ac powercable. The OR5 is powered by the 12v transformer. Where do you insert an aftermarket AC cable in the system?
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Whats up with the Ac powercable. The OR5 is powered by the 12v transformer. Where do you insert an aftermarket AC cable in the system?
For some foreign countries, I ship another AC adapter that has more AC plug options. It has an IEC on it. It also makes less audible noise on 240VAC 50Hz.
For US 60 Hz I like the smaller AC adapter better.
Steve N.
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I will throw my 2 cents in. I just upgraded from a loaded OR4 to the OR5. The improvement in my system with these converters is not subtle. In my experience, a quality USB converter is just as (if not more) important as the DAC. My system sounds phenomenal with the OR5. It is so good, I actually sold my vinyl rig! :o And I never thought that day would come, but I haven't looked back and I'm listening to more music than ever. Thanks Steve!
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How loaded is the OR5 that you have?
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I will throw my 2 cents in. I just upgraded from a loaded OR4 to the OR5. The improvement in my system with these converters is not subtle. In my experience, a quality USB converter is just as (if not more) important as the DAC. My system sounds phenomenal with the OR5. It is so good, I actually sold my vinyl rig! :o And I never thought that day would come, but I haven't looked back and I'm listening to more music than ever. Thanks Steve!
What mods did your OR4 have and what mods does your OR5 have?
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I took possesion of my OR5 last week-end. It replaced an HiFace EVO with Boulder powersupply and it was a substantial step up. I was planning to get my Bolder converted to 12v, and then a used Monolith showed up audiogon, which I scooped up. This was a revelation. If you want the most from you Offramp, you need the powersupply. In simple terms, more bass, more detail and generally more musical. Interesting factiod. I use the OR5 with a PS audio perfectwave MKII, but I am not using the I2S, because it runs through a Trinnov digital processor first. I use the DAC in asynchronous mode (it buffers and reclocks the signal), yet the better clocking of the OR5 still makes a big difference.
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I took possesion of my OR5 last week-end. It replaced an HiFace EVO with Boulder powersupply and it was a substantial step up. I was planning to get my Bolder converted to 12v, and then a used Monolith showed up audiogon, which I scooped up. This was a revelation. If you want the most from you Offramp, you need the powersupply. In simple terms, more bass, more detail and generally more musical. Interesting factiod. I use the OR5 with a PS audio perfectwave MKII, but I am not using the I2S, because it runs through a Trinnov digital processor first. I use the DAC in asynchronous mode (it buffers and reclocks the signal), yet the better clocking of the OR5 still makes a big difference.
Ed - have you tried Native mode yet? Is it better than NativeX?
Steve N.
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I switched between Native and NativeX a bit and believe I have a slight preference for NativeX. However, the difference is small, and I can't be sure I could pick a winner in a double blind.
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What mods did your OR4 have and what mods does your OR5 have?
OR5 has all options, OR4 had all but the most recent $75-100 upgrade (don't remember exactly what the upgrade was/is).
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OR5 has all options, OR4 had all but the most recent $75-100 upgrade (don't remember exactly what the upgrade was/is).
This upgrade to OR4 places more of the circuitry under the USB Hynes reg, and changes the I2S terminator.
Steve N.
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Steve, as you know I am using the monolith. I usually have a 2 hour listening session each evening. I then leave everything on and go to sleep. This drains the full battery and does a full recharge every day. Seems wastefull for just two hours listening. Is there a way to preserve battery life, with a different charge cycle?
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Steve, as you know I am using the monolith. I usually have a 2 hour listening session each evening. I then leave everything on and go to sleep. This drains the full battery and does a full recharge every day. Seems wastefull for just two hours listening. Is there a way to preserve battery life, with a different charge cycle?
Yes, if you close out of your player S/W, which you should, then you can just switch the Monolith off and then on again. This will immediately start the charge cycle. You cannot enable the battery again until it is fully charged.
Steve N.
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I've been using the OR5 in my system for a few months now and am impressed with its performance. The OR5 outputs a cleaner, more finely resolved signal than the OR4, which the OR5 replaced. Your stuff keeps getting better, Steve. Cutting edge.
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I've been using the OR5 in my system for a few months now and am impressed with its performance. The OR5 outputs a cleaner, more finely resolved signal than the OR4, which the OR5 replaced. Your stuff keeps getting better, Steve. Cutting edge.
Is this a basic OR5 or do you have SPDIF/HDMI Hynes regs options?
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I have an S/PDIF Hynes reg option and the dual Turboclock. My previous OR (an OR4) was modded by me with Hynes regs throughout, the difference being it used Audiocom Ultraclocks. Steve's Turboclock, I infer, factors materially in the upgrade the OR5 offers. OR5 = happy. :D
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I have an S/PDIF Hynes reg option and the dual Turboclock. My previous OR (an OR4) was modded by me with Hynes regs throughout, the difference being it used Audiocom Ultraclocks. Steve's Turboclock, I infer, factors materially in the upgrade the OR5 offers. OR5 = happy. :D
Wow, the full enchilada.
Here I was thinking that my used or4 with usb hynes and turboclox was already impressive.
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Wow, the full enchilada.
Here I was thinking that my used or4 with usb hynes and turboclox was already impressive.
Read what he says, "Steve's Turboclock, I infer, factors materially in the upgrade the OR5 offers."
But in speaking with Steve, he says the OR4 w/Hynes and turboclocks is inferior to a Standard OR5 w/Hynes ONLY upgrade...
So obviously, the OR5, even with whatever clocking it has, is structurally a different beast. I have heard the OR4 fully modded with turbo clocks and the OR5 w/Hynes only, and the OR5 was a night/day difference. I doubt most out there would hear this difference, but in Steve's system, it was clearly night/day. That night/day sound difference being that one did something more correct/right than the other. I didn't focus on all the adjectives/specifics/bs, just what sounded right and not quite as right. OR4 modded to heck was VERY GOOD, but OR5 w/Hynes USB only was flat out better. But I have to emphasize, YMMV and if you have to "listen" for it, you should not even consider/concern yourself about which one you should be owning. It should be "immediate" and "clearly" night/day.
Cheers!
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I've been using the OR5 in my system for a few months now and am impressed with its performance. The OR5 outputs a cleaner, more finely resolved signal than the OR4, which the OR5 replaced. Your stuff keeps getting better, Steve. Cutting edge.
Very good way of describing it. My thoughts exactly. I didn't get into jotting down all the adjectives of what one did vs. another, but his OR4 modded w/turbo clocks/Hynes/etc. didn't have that same "output" or certain "sound" that is more refined as you stated. Was this difference something you heard as a night/day from the get go or did it take you a while to hear it?
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My understanding was that a fully modded OR4 was about the same as a stock OR5 and the big difference came from the Spdif/HDMI hynes.
Cost of the Fully modded used OR4 is about the same as a stock OR5.
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Was this difference something you heard as a night/day from the get go or did it take you a while to hear it?
The difference was immediately apparent as I could hear details and nuances in favourite recordings I hadn't heard before---for instance in Kruder & Dorfmeister's K&D Sessions, which I've listened to for over 10 years. That CD is only a moderately good recording, but it came alive more than it has for me previously. Hearing changes like that is something of a litmus test for me. The feeling I get with the OR5 is of a more relaxed presentation, a reduction of noise that allows low-level subtleties through.
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My understanding was that a fully modded OR4 was about the same as a stock OR5 and the big difference came from the Spdif/HDMI hynes.
Cost of the Fully modded used OR4 is about the same as a stock OR5.
This is interesting. I have been told the OR4 w/Hynes+Turbo Clocks is better than a stock OR5, but if they are equal, then yes, an OR5 would be the best buy since you can always start stock, or even add the Hynes for now, and later on, just upgrade from wherever you start from.
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The difference was immediately apparent as I could hear details and nuances in favourite recordings I hadn't heard before---for instance in Kruder & Dorfmeister's K&D Sessions, which I've listened to for over 10 years. That CD is only a moderately good recording, but it came alive more than it has for me previously. Hearing changes like that is something of a litmus test for me. The feeling I get with the OR5 is of a more relaxed presentation, a reduction of noise that allows low-level subtleties through.
This is fantastic:)! So you get 1) More detail retrieval AND 2) A more relaxed or call it, "balanced"-"effortless" type of experience.
Now how does this get improved on is the big ??? I know the Overdrive SE wouldn't hurt (well the pockets maybe), but I'm sure wondering just how far Steve can possibly take the Off-Ramp say, two years from now?
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Stock OR5 is still a $150 more and adding SPDIF hynes another $250...so a $400 difference for a clearly superior OR5. At this level, I don't expect dramatic differences, so price/value considerations can become paramount.
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Stock OR5 is still a $150 more and adding SPDIF hynes another $250...so a $400 difference for a clearly superior OR5. At this level, I don't expect dramatic differences, so price/value considerations can become paramount.
A $350 difference (price w/Hynes vs. $1200 modded OR4) for a clearly superior Off-Ramp. At $1200 or $1550, I'll gladly pay $350 more if I'm paying $1200 for something like this. It's like having a custom speaker being built and it costs $4500 for a two way monitor, or add $1000 more for a third driver that will give you a ton more sensitivity and a ton better speaker. I'll gladly pay the $1000 more for that extra driver.
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I would tend to agree that there is enough additional value in the OR5 to easily support a $350 price differential. When you buy a piece of digital front-end equipment like an Off-Ramp, you're eventually going to sell it. It's not like a solid state amplifier that might legitimately become a family heirloom. If the market consensus becomes that the OR5 is the clearly better sounding of the two units, the resale price differential might eventually grow much wider than suggested by the original sale price. I would also venture that the I2S over HDMI might wind up supporting the resale value considerably...there are an awful lot of WFS and PS Audio DACs out there. You really can't go wrong with either unit, but there's a more to the value equation than just purchase price. :thumb:
The thing that keeps me up at night regarding the life expectancy of my OR is the prospect of USB obsolescence. You laugh, but I can remember a time before USB and can therefore imagine a time after USB!
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I apologize,
but ordering the Off Ramp 5, in addition to adding S / PDIF Hynes regulator, you must also choose an option Dual Turboclock?
Excuse the question but I can already tell if that's fine without the Dual Turboclock or you need to include this option because it will not work as expected?
What do you recommend??
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I apologize,
but ordering the Off Ramp 5, in addition to adding S / PDIF Hynes regulator, you must also choose an option Dual Turboclock?
Excuse the question but I can already tell if that's fine without the Dual Turboclock or you need to include this option because it will not work as expected?
What do you recommend??
You can purchase without any upgrades. The Hynes and the Turboclocks are both upgrades from what is already a working and perfectly excellent sounding unit. I would personally do an OR5 w/Hynes unless you absolutely do not have the extra $250. It's really a substantial difference with the Hynes USB. Turboclocks is excessive/overkill IMHO and good for people that want every last penny worth of sound. Stick with Hynes USB "upgrade" for total of $1550, and you will be very happy and feel no need to ever have turboclocks...
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You can purchase without any upgrades. The Hynes and the Turboclocks are both upgrades from what is already a working and perfectly excellent sounding unit. I would personally do an OR5 w/Hynes unless you absolutely do not have the extra $250. It's really a substantial difference with the Hynes USB. Turboclocks is excessive/overkill IMHO and good for people that want every last penny worth of sound. Stick with Hynes USB "upgrade" for total of $1550, and you will be very happy and feel no need to ever have turboclocks...
Thanks for the quick response.
So I would recommend without any upgrades?
But what I schusi intede Hynes USB stick for upgrade?
On the site I find only as an upgrade Hynes only S / PDIF and HDMI and USB for USB ......... I thought that this ditch is already marked as?
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sorry I misspelled at one point:
HDMI ........ and not for the USB
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sorry I misspelled at one point:
HDMI ........ and not for the USB
There are 3 upgrades:
1) S/PDIF Hynes regulator - benefits S/PDIF as well as AES/EBU
2) HDMI Hynes regulator - benefits HDMI I2S and RJ-45 I2S
3) Turboclock
Steve N.
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Hi Steve N.
how many weeks is scheduled for delivery?
The upgrade for HDMI HYNES is only recommended if the dac W4S / PS AUDIO or .......?
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Dear all,
Having listened to my system with the Ultra Fi Aubisque USB filter for a few days, I wanted to let you know that I am very happy with its performance.
It seems to work as advertised, significantly reducing noise and minimizing differences between USB cables and player software upstream of the Aubisque.
Digital seems to have become logical again, which is no small feat. I now need to investigate whether there are still noticeable differences between different sample rates.
In any case, I think it validates Steve's point that audible differences between computers, player software and USB cables are mainly due to common mode noise upstream of the Off Ramp 5.
Jean-Pierre
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Although this is an OR5 thread, I'd still like to know about the sonic differences between the Aubisque and Short Block. Anybody done a head to head with them?
Ernie
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Hi Ernie,
Sorry I have not been able to make this comparison.
The reason I went for the Aubisque is that it does not cut the ground and imposes no restrictions on the electrical connections for computer and OR5.
As I was pointing out, I am happy with its performance.
This is not a criticism of the Short Block, which probably offers excellent noise reduction.
Regards,
Jean-Pierre