AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Hot off the Press => Topic started by: Zero on 23 Nov 2007, 10:13 pm
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An upcoming issue of Affordable Audio will feature an amp comparison between two high power transistor amplifiers; the H2O Signature 100 stereo amp and the Monarchy hybrid SE-250 mono blocks. Other than high current capacity, the topology on these amplifiers are completely opposite of one another. If you’ve been looking to get into some powerhouse amps – this articles for you!
The H2O is a $2000, 50lb ICE powered amp that takes the topology as far as it can go. She is a beast, boasting 100w per side with 1kw of power on tap – topped off with 400,000uf of capacitance, there’s virtually nothing on the planet that it can’t handle (within its power rating).
The Monarchy SE-250 mono blocks rack up a MSRP of $5000. Although this seems completely unfair, there is a reason why this comparison is just – something that I will reveal in the review itself. Moving on; The SE-250 is a hybrid amp, using a single tube at the input stage and Mosfet transistors on the output stage. Each mono supplies a whopping 250w per side – the first 50 running in class A. The SE-250 is also a zero feedback design.
Since most reviews end with a thumbs up recommendation (not to exclude many of my own), I felt it would be refreshing for people to read a comparison between two well engineered high current amplifiers that happen to use a vastly different approach in topologies. This is NOT going to be a contest (shootout) to decide a personal favorite. Instead, this article is meant to shed light into two very good products while using a solid reference point. I’ll tell you this much; both amps are exceptional – for very different reasons.
Meanwhile; a cruddy picture of the line-up (note that the H2O Signature 100 is in a used/beat up chassis);
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El foto
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=12458)
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Hi Zero, can you tell us what preamp, cables, yada yada you are using? Thanks!
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When you say that the H2o has 100 watts at 8 ohm and then, it has 1KW on tap, does it mean that it doubles it output as it goes down to 1 ohm? I remember reading according to H2o specs that most, if not all his amps are stable up to 2 ohms and not below that. Can you explain this?
If it technically holds water, than at $ 2K, it is an outrageous bargain.
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I knew I forgot to post some info Murlman - thanks for the reminder .. :lol:
The rest of the electronics will be;
Source: Arcam Diva62 (not a bad budget player, gives me a linear enough sound to get the job done)
Pre Amplifier: H2O FIRE pre-amplifier (single ended class A circuit). I also briefly used an Ayre K-5Xe - but the Fire made quick work of it on both amps.
Speakers: Totem Acoustic FOREST and the Totem Acoustic STTAF
Wire: Totem Acoustic Sinew interconnects / Totem Acoustic TRES speaker wire
I decided to use only Zu Cable "birth" power cords on the amps.. nothing extreme.
Bemopti123,
To give you a bona fide answer, I'll have to consult Henry Ho as to the units power output into a 1 ohm load. The 2ohm rating is a 'safe zone', although it bears mentioning that he ran the Signature 100 on the vaunted Apogee Scintilla - which can dip down to four tenths of an ohm. I've heard the amp do it myself - it never broke a sweat (although Henry feels its best to run the Signature 100 en' mono form if you want the best performance on this particular speaker).
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Zero, I am asking this question because I have read about Muralman's system and his syncillas and he being able to push them to produce enough current. I have a pair of Infinity Kappa 9s, which can make standard amps beg for mercy, they drop below 1 ohm in certain frequencies, therefore of my search for an amp or amps capable of controlling these beasts. The last that were for a reasonable price are no longer made, Aragon Palladium monos, and others that are able to do them justice, are rather expensive and extremely heavy (big bear McIntoshes.)
Anyway, find out what is up with these amps. :thumb:
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Thank you Zero, All seems well. I was quite surprised you have the Fire. If you know my writings, I am very against any kind of dielectric insulation on speaker cables. They produce a hissing sound. If you can put your ear to the speaker and not find any extraneous hiss, that is a good sign Totem is doing a good job.
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Dielectric characteristics are but one element of cable design. I am hearing no hiss in my system and I know my speaker cables (AQ Sterling and TG Audio) have a lot more dialelectric than the Anti-Cables. I also have a pair of Magnan Signature balanced interconnects with substantial Teflon content that sound much better than most cables I have heard including another cable I own with minimal (mostly air) dielectric.
Zero
I have auditioned both the Fire and the Signature 100 and look forward to your review. Henry Ho is a talented designer. I will try to offer any comments in a non-dogmatic way. There are just too many variables in system, environment and personal tastes for there to be only one over-simplified way to excellent sound.
Bob
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Bemopti - Will do.. :thumb: I confess, I've had the Sig 100 in the digs for quite awhile. Lets just say - this could be exactly what you're looking for.
Muralman - The Sinew interconnects are first rate, a hidden treasure as far as I'm concerned. The verdict is still out on the TRES speaker wire, although I like it.
Bob - Agreed with the variables thang. There are many, many roads that lead to good sound. I look forward to your feedback once the review is published.
Sorry I've got to make this so short gents - I've got to get out the door!
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Zero - I made my own speaker leads. They cost me about $12 each. I love the hell out of them. They are so superior to Anti-Cables in this application it isn't funny. I am using Henry's monos so I keep them very short. Simply said they are very thin ribbons lightly insulated with baggy plastic.
Bob, thanks for your testimony. It has me scratching my head. The Anti-Cables made such an impression on me, I stuck to their minimal dielectric philosophy.
My experience with expensive cables is limited. On trial, the ones I did try, followed Spelt's rule, and were more fuzzy with more insulation. Price didn't help.
:D
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Zero - I made my own speaker leads. They cost me about $12 each. I love the hell out of them. They are so superior to Anti-Cables in this application it isn't funny. I am using Henry's monos so I keep them very short. Simply said they are
Bob, thanks for your testimony. It has me scratching my head. The Anti-Cables made such an impression on me, I stuck to their minimal dielectric philosophy.
My experience with expensive cables is limited. On trial, the ones I did try, followed Spelt's rule, and were more fuzzy with more insulation. Price didn't help.
:D
very thin ribbons lightly insulated with baggy plastic ..............Doesn't Mapleshade or someone else make cables just like that whcih are very successful?!
Sounds like you have a good formula!
Bill
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Thanks Bill, for the kudos. Yes, as others have pointed out to me, Mapleshade makes an IC that looks just like it. I had never seen them. It was convergent evolution. They don't make SCs that way though. Wonder why? Probably because they are fragile.
I ended them in spades, because the H2O has to be protected from shorts. I got the spades from Home Grown. They are great bargains. I bridged the Saran Wrap with plastic tape, to make the seal, and ensure no naked conductor contact.
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:violin: Hey all H2O owners, PLEASE solder .1µ Sonicap Platinum bypass caps to all your ELCOS. Do NOT use V-Caps. Enjoy a new spectra of highs.
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I have heard the H20 mono blocs and thought they were exceptional amplifiers just as I did the Monarchy 70 stereo amp (both stock and modified) and also thought it to be a very nice unit.
It will be interesting to see how the two units you mention will compare. I am sure it will be a fun time and not sure they will be one 'winner'.
Have fun :thumb:
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The Anti-Cables made such an impression on me, I stuck to their minimal dielectric philosophy.
My experience with expensive cables is limited. On trial, the ones I did try, followed Spelt's rule, and were more fuzzy with more insulation. Price didn't help.
These cables have a similar description to yours - perhaps thinner and less fragile.
http://www.magnan.com/pages/products/signaturespeaker.html
Bob
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Bill,
Once upon a time, I owned the Monarchy SM-70 Pro. Talk about a great budget sand amp. As you would expect, the SE-250's expand on that general sound and take it to far greater heights.
Now, I hope I don't get burned at the stake for saying this; but I've heard the H2O Mono's before... and honestly, this Signature 100 just sounds better to these ears, and by no small margin. It's that A250 module luv'. I say this if course, not having heard a set of tricked out H2O Sig 250 mono's.
Agreed - there will be no 'winner'. But, I can say that the results may surprise some people.
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"These cables have a similar description to yours - perhaps thinner and less fragile.
http://www.magnan.com/pages/products/signaturespeaker.html
Bob"
They are much the same. I wonder how much they are charging?
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:violin: Hey all H2O owners, PLEASE solder .1µ Sonicap Platinum bypass caps to all your ELCOS. Do NOT use V-Caps. Enjoy a new spectra of highs.
Vince
Good to see the Sonicap Platimums are less expensive than V-Caps. You posted quite effusively about the V-Caps just a few months back. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1186491666&openusid&zzMuralman1&4&5#Muralman1
To revoice my H20, I used a combination of teflon and oil V-Caps and TRT Dynamicap bypasses on the cans. In addition, replacing the nickel plated binding posts helped me to better hear the characteristics of each cap. I may try the Platinums at some point.
Those Magnan speaker cables run about a grand for an 8 foot pair.
Bob
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:duh:
You are right, Bob. At first I thought V-caps were the ticket. Then, when I noticed I was getting less detail than with Thetas, I decided to try the Sonicaps.
How do you like the caps you chose?
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I like the combination. Any of these are better than the stock Daytons in my stereo signature. The V-Caps improve the midrange and smaller value TRTs improve the highs. You are not limited to exact value replacements for bypasses and you can increase values for the can bypasses within reason. I have done a lot of soldering during my testing but its been months since I opened it up.
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I had an H2O Fire preamp in my system last year, on loan for two weeks.... I thought it an outstanding preamp. I've never heard any of the amps.
Dave
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I had an H2O Fire preamp in my system last year, on loan for two weeks.... I thought it an outstanding preamp. I've never heard any of the amps.
Dave
Did the fire preamp have remote volume, volume display? the pictures on the website cast a shadow on the front of the preamp and are not very good.
Does anyone know the price of the fire?
Thanks,
Bill
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Mr_Bill - The production FIRE will have a remote control. There will be no volume display (call it a 'purist' approach).. The price will be in the 5-6k range (not yet 100% determined).
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Zero -
I hope you won't be offended by a little advice born of 2 years experience with Henry's critters.
I have the Fire, and H2O monos. I can say this without flinching, what you put through these two amplifying units is what you hear. Although I could find very little on your Arcam. there may be a problem. I have had yet an over sampling CDP that didn't sound contrived. The highs always seemed forced, and astringent. Maybe your unit will fare better.
Your power cords are iffy. Zu calls them, self shielding. Outside speaker cables, class D owners have found up-grade power cords make the most difference, and the difference is not small. Again, they just may have the requisite shielding.
I doubt the conventional Monarch amps will have the clarity where you can hear upstream defects. I haven't heard a conventional amp that does. When I was running Pass Labs X-600 amps, I couldn't tell the difference between power cords, and CDPs were a matter of taste.
I preferred my non-oversampling Audio-Note DAC over other CDPs, but it didn't occur to me how necessary it would become when I bought Henry's amps and preamp. Through lots of trials, I found speaker leads should be bare, ultra thin and wide.
I commonly hear, "Class D is in it's infancy." Quite to the contrary, it is our understanding on how to get the best out of class D that is in it's infancy.
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Ok Boys - the comparison is up! Check it out at; www.affordableaudio.org - Jan Issue! For this particular review, I decided to structure it in a very unorthodox way in an effort to make the read a bit more straight-forward and direct.
Vince - Your feedback is welcome. Ultimately, there is only so much expendable cash I can throw at this hobby. I have to work with what I've got. At the end of the day, my concern is being able to ascertain, within a good degree of accuracy, what a product can and cannot do. Throughout the review process, I've kept in very, very close contact with Henry to assure that all I experienced was right in line with the amp. I give every manufacturer the same treatment. The power cords aren't the best... neither is the source. I'll give you that. Nonetheless, I am able to extract enough performance/resolution from them to give me a very solid idea on how these things perform.
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:thumb:
Sean, that was a truthful, and surprisingly positive review of Henry's H2O. I say surprising, because I am use to reviewers not understanding class D's special requirements. You were afforded a really big step up in understanding when you coupled the H2O with the Fire. I promise you, just about any other preamp out there would have mucked up the sound. They, nearly to the last one, exhibit some negative. Although I liked what I read, I know how tubes in the CDP bring out all the true acoustic instrument timbre in the H2O you missed. As you know, it is the tubes located in the Monarchy that affords it pleasing color.
From what I can gather, your CDP is well thought of and has been compared favorably to other popular brands. I have a tubed CDP. Just like a sprinkle of salt awakens a good winter time Mulligan stew, that bit of, "Tube color," works it's presence magic on the H2O in the same manner that you enjoyed with the Monarchy.
Did you use the Fire preamp with the Monarchy? They make their own preamp. I would think the Fire gives any amp a big boost in most judgement categories.
Thanks for a report of your fine trial run of Henry's creations.
Vince
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Vince,
Thanks for the comments. Yep - the 'FIRE' is a bad-ass component. It is one of the most natural sounding pre-amplifier's I've come across. The sense of scale that thing delivers is astounding.
As one would expect - The FIRE made for a great match with the Signature 100. As one may not expect - it was an even better fit with the Monarchy mono's. Henry wasn't surprised at all. In fact, he suggested I give the affordable Transcendant Ground Grid a whirl, a unit he feels is a wonderful match with his amps. Unfortunately, I never had the chance to try out his suggestion - I'll just have to take his word for it. There are plenty of great pre-amplifiers that compliment the Signature 100... such as the Blue Circle BC3, or the Lamm LL2 Deluxe.
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Sean
I recall you had the input impedance of the H20 listed as 100 Kohms. Is that a misprint? The other H20 models have an input impedance of 10 Kohms.
Bob
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Bob - Good catch. That inflated spec is brought to you by my lazy fingers... :lol:. Like the rest of the gear, the Signature 100 has an input impedance of 10 Kohms. Time to e-mail Mark again.. :lol:
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Jeez Zero, now I got to work again. I think you need to change your nickname to "Beavis" :thumb:
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Hey, at least you're kept busy old man! :icon_lol:
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I had to report here I finally took care of my weakest link, that being the all important source. I built an Audio Note DAC 2.1 kit. It sounded more resolving and much more pleasant with strident music. On the whole the sound was polite.
Then, I sent the DAC to Henry. It came back transformed into the most natural sounding source I ever heard. I have heard an Audio Note 4.1 on my system. By natural, I meant, without inhibition, the source handles every disc, from Andrea Giuffredi and his in your lap crazy jazz, to Pepe Romano playing Bach. My system is at end game.