[Davey]

Joel,

Looks good.  Nice set of Orion's too.  For sale now?

Is the accentuated toe-in and near-wall placement the proper configuration for those speakers?  I assume so because of the very controlled directivity of the design?

Cheers,

Dave.

[sts9fan]

The toein is to cause the first relfections from the left speaker to arrive to the right ear and vise versa.

[Russell Dawkins]

The toein is to cause the first relfections from the left speaker to arrive to the right ear and vise versa.

This is not correct.

Toe in is usually used to reduce the intensity of the first reflections from the nearby wall and to widen the sweet spot slightly.

When speakers are not toed in enough or at all, moving left or right of the centerline creates a situation where you have three factors shifting the image to that side -
(1) the signal arrives earlier from the nearer speaker,
(2) you are closer to the nearer speaker
(3) you are more on-axis to the nearer speaker

When the speakers' axes cross in front of you, if you move to one side, you are moving further off axis of the nearer speaker which balances, somewhat, the earlier arrival time of the mono component of the musical signal. This helps stabilize the image, or provide a wider sweet spot.

[stereocilia]

The toein is to cause the first relfections from the left speaker to arrive to the right ear and vise versa.

This is not correct.

Toe in is usually used to reduce the intensity of the first reflections from the nearby wall and to widen the sweet spot slightly.

When speakers are not toed in enough or at all, moving left or right of the centerline creates a situation where you have three factors shifting the image to that side -
(1) the signal arrives earlier from the nearer speaker,
(2) you are closer to the nearer speaker
(3) you are more on-axis to the nearer speaker

When the speakers' axes cross in front of you, if you move to one side, you are moving further off axis of the nearer speaker which balances, somewhat, the earlier arrival time of the mono component of the musical signal. This helps stabilize the image, or provide a wider sweet spot.

If I understand page 5 - 6 correctly here:  http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/Philosophy.pdf  , then sts9fan is correct.

[goskers]

Joel,

Looks good.  Nice set of Orion's too.  For sale now?

Is the accentuated toe-in and near-wall placement the proper configuration for those speakers?  I assume so because of the very controlled directivity of the design?

Cheers,

Dave.

Dave,

After my first visit to Detroit I sold the orion's which are pictured.  The Summa line is just such a better system IMHO.  For my system goals it was a no brainer.

 Anand wanted to see a picture of them and that is what's posted here.  The comment about the Nathan finish is because I used truck bed liner in a roll on application.  Because of it being an epoxy and containing texture I thought that I wouldn't have to worry about the seams as much as usual.  That is certainly not the case.

[Russell Dawkins]

If I understand page 5 - 6 correctly here:  http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/Philosophy.pdf  , then sts9fan is correct.

sts9fan's use of the term "first reflection" is wrong.

If you read page 5 of the Geddes paper carefully, you will see that the sentence I presume you are referring to - "A reflected signal that arrives at the opposite ear from the direct sound is less perceptible as coloration and image shift than if both signals arrive at the same ear." - does not mention "first" reflection, but "reflected signal".

First reflections in most rooms and from most speakers comes earliest and strongest from the wall nearest the speaker, followed in intensity by the floor in front of the speaker, then by the ceiling.

Angling the speaker inwards affects the intensity of the wall reflection and has almost no effect on the floor and ceiling reflections. I believe Dr Geddes uses substantial absorption on the floor in front of his speakers.

So, the first reflections from the floor and ceiling are arriving at the same ear as the direct sound, but typically diminished by carpet on the floor and by distance and sometimes absorptive material on the ceiling. If the speakers are toed in, the first reflections from the side wall in this case are significantly diminished, especially above 500Hz, where they count. With speakers as close to the wall as those pictured in the first post on this thread I would also use absorption on the adjacent wall, even when toed in as much as they are.

Almost nothing of the first reflection arrives at the far ear at significant levels, except below 500Hz where it doesn't matter much. All of the reflected signal Dr Geddes refers to from the left speaker in the right ear consists of late reflections except, again, below 500Hz.

I hope I am making myself clear, but I fear maybe not! I have given it my best shot.

[sts9fan]

Ah.  You may be right.  The 45 degree toein used with the Gedlee speakers is not typical.  I think it also has something to do with the cd nature of them.  I am sure Earl will clear this up shortly.

[brj]

Great review, Anand!  This is exactly the type of detail I always hope to see in Critic's Circle reviews!

Goskers, given your experience with the active Orions, have you considered trying an active crossover with the Nathans (and/or subs)?

Thanks!

[goskers]

No!

Dr. Geddes has stated that there is no benefit to going active with a well designed system.  I totally agree as it just adds a level of complexity regarding amp channels and cabling that is annoying at some point. 

I am completely happy using the recommended Pioneer receiver and no name cables.  Most will laugh but these things are much less important in the chain than the speaker is itself.  This setup has given way to an affordable and realistic system that can be used for both music and HT. 

[Russell Dawkins]

OT, briefly.
This is my favorite cable comment, by a fellow describing his DIY speaker configuration:
http://tinyurl.com/ycgs4dz

[anubisgrau]

pardon my question, i think i've never seen anyone mentioned low powered SET amps with geddes speakers. any particular reason for that?

[mgalusha]

pardon my question, i think i've never seen anyone mentioned low powered SET amps with geddes speakers. any particular reason for that?

Perhaps many have not tried them. I have a pair of Consonance Cyber 845's that I'm currently using with the Abbey's and they drive them very well unless I try and push them to silly levels. The 845's are rated at 28 watts, which is a fair amount for an SET. One of these days a friend is going to bring over his Tubelab simple SE to play with but I don't know when that will happen.

[Pez]

It'll happen sooner than later hopefully. 

[ctviggen]

OT, briefly.
This is my favorite cable comment, by a fellow describing his DIY speaker configuration:
http://tinyurl.com/ycgs4dz

This is an idiotic post that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  It appears to be your theory that cables don't matter, but it's useless in this thread.  Please stick to the topic at hand.

[anubisgrau]

pardon my question, i think i've never seen anyone mentioned low powered SET amps with geddes speakers. any particular reason for that?

Perhaps many have not tried them. I have a pair of Consonance Cyber 845's that I'm currently using with the Abbey's and they drive them very well unless I try and push them to silly levels. The 845's are rated at 28 watts, which is a fair amount for an SET. One of these days a friend is going to bring over his Tubelab simple SE to play with but I don't know when that will happen.

thanks - i didn't mean 845/211 SETs which can move most of the real world speakers, but really low powered SETs of few watts. what is the nominal efficency/av.impedance of geddes designs?

[Russell Dawkins]

OT, briefly.
This is my favorite cable comment, by a fellow describing his DIY speaker configuration:
http://tinyurl.com/ycgs4dz

This is an idiotic post that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  It appears to be your theory that cables don't matter, but it's useless in this thread.  Please stick to the topic at hand.

A core aspect of Dr Geddes design philosophy is the notion that if the cables and amplifiers are appropriately specified, then that is enough. This was hinted at in the post immediately preceding mine, which is what mine related to, without getting heavy handed about it.

It was intended as comic relief for those who might have been shocked by goskers down-playing of the importance of cables.

Idiotic, rude, we all have our flaws.

[gedlee]

It was intended as comic relief for those who might have been shocked by goskers down-playing of the importance of cables.

Idiotic, rude, we all have our flaws.

I thought it was funny.  I mean I can't see having a serious discussion about cables.  

Seriuosly, I buy mine at Home Depot.  And NO, I don't use lamp cord, its not heavy enough guage given the lengths of my cables (about 20 feet).  I use their "Hi-End" speaker cable which is really heavy guage and very flexible - good stuff.

[Pez]

Gentlemen, cable discussion belongs in the Path of Least Resistance Regardless of what you believe about it's efficacy.

[anubisgrau]

...

have you ever tried your speakers like nathan with a 2-3w SET amp? i would be interested in hearing an opinion could it work in a 22m2 room with 3m ceiling?

[TomS]

David ("earflappin") may have tried an SET, but I think he finally settled on the Atma-Sphere M60's (OTL) as the best choice for his Abbeys.

Tom