AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Acoustics Circle => Topic started by: tonyptony on 28 Feb 2020, 01:46 pm
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I know that in general it is preferred not to have a square sound room, but in looking at houses over the course of well over a year I've been having a hard time finding something on the order of 1 to 1.625 to 2.5 or so dimensioned room - and big enough to support my speakers and gear. On the other hand I've found more than a few houses with a square "spare room" (bedroom, formal living room). In the latest case there's one with a 17x17 living room. Windows along part of the outside wall of course, but otherwise a space that could be considered. The question is - would I be putting myself at such a disadvantage due to the problems associated with a square room that I'd be better off to just keep looking?
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Any chance that room has 1, or maybe even 2 large doorways leading into it? Bass may be less troublesome if it did. Worst case would be a square room that the door had to be closed to enjoy music.
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I find that one can make a room work. Being square is just not perfect. Which is totally different than impossible.
Sadly IMO (of course) too many audiophiles think perfection is a requirement. Anything less anathema. Where the facts are that notion is complete b*llsheet.
So I say do not worry, just do what you can, and you will ENJOY THE MUSIC anyway. Even though some fellow audiophiles may swoon at the mere thought of a 'square' room.
One of the ideas for a really square room is to place the speakers on the diagonal, rather than on one wall.
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With creativity you can make a square room "un-square". The biggest challenge is bass peaks/dips as the primary frequencies (which correspond to room width/length) will double up (in the case of a square room could be as much as 40 dB). So add massive amounts of effective absorption on one wall (suggest GIK 244 panels) so it acoustically behaves like less of a square room and use carefully placed multiple subs (read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction, the consummate audiophile primer to learn how speakers behave in-room). To address higher frequencies try skewing the setup at say a 20 degree angle from one set of walls. Experimentation is free. As a last (not first) step apply DSP room correction. As Earl Geddes says: "Fix physical problems by physical means."
In my 8ft x 13ft x 21ft room ten GIK 244 panels and 3 subs reduced primary bass peaks/dips by 2/3rd's and Dirac room correction can take care of the rest.
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You can also set up on the diagonal if the room is big enough to not have you sitting in a corner. You'll still want to use some bass absorption but at least you're not sitting in the width mode that is also the length mode.
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Agree with bpape. I've had more than one challenging room over the years and setting up on the diagonal in a square-ish room has always worked best for me.
The room shape I dislike the most is an L-shaped space.
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Diagonal setup.....pull speakers toward listener as much as possible....move listener toward speakers as much as possible. Basically a near field setup that takes the room out of play as much as possible.
Play around with toe-in and it will be a very immersive experience. It can be holographic. Be sure to get the "right" speakers. This means not too large! Stand-mounts will do it. Add a sub later if you want more LF oomph. With its low pass and output control you can fine tune the sub so it doesn't overpower the room the way a larger floorstander would because it gives no control over the LF.
This is exactly what I did with my modest 2nd system in a 10 x 10 x 8 foot room. Super enjoyable. In some ways moreso than my main rig that cost tons more.
That's the good thing about this situation....you will be so close you don't have to spend tons on the speakers like you would to energize a large room.
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Thanks to all so far. I’ve already got my speakers - Von Schweikert Endeavor SE’s, which I’m not about to change. :) So they’re not too tall, not too wide, but according to the VSA gang like to see themselves about 18” from either sidewall to the speaker sides, and about 3’ from the front wall to the back of the speakers - as a starting point. Ideally a 13x20 or so room would be great, but I haven’t run across too many of those that are “separate rooms” - not a great room.
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If the 17 ft. by 17 ft. room is you cave, then it's very possible. As some members have said, you need a fair amount of absorption and diffusion to make it work. My room is 18 ft. by 18 ft. and was ok from the beginning, but after adding some Realtraps and a LOT of diffusion I'm very happy with it. The only downside is it looks like a stereo cave, not a living room. The only other downside I can think of is I used to be able to listen to my music while I was working / cooking/ reading, etc. Now all my music is only in my cave. But having a cave is a wonderful thing!
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I use a 13' x 13' room.
I own Hales Signature Two Speakers which love a dead room.
Got tons of absorption and diffusion material on the walls and ceiling.
I have a tubed CD Player, Pre Amp and Mono Power Amps.
After MUCH trial and error, I picked tubes that are very crisp, tight & clear (Amperex/Siemens/JJ E34Ls)
Also have three subwoofers (which run at low volume levels)
Pulled speakers and listening chair 4-6 ft out from walls utilizing Near Field Listening.
Be prepared to spend some serious setup time!
It took me two years to get it right...
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A diagonal setup, I don't think that I've run across that before other than in a Home Theater or Family/Living Room.
Sounds worth trying.
Speaking as an architect in which half my business is residential, and majority of that is home additions, I can say there are quite a few people that purchase a home intending to do additions and or major renovations.
I do not really understand it, nor do I understand why they move out in about five years and do it all over again.
Keeps me in business. 8)
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You can also set up on the diagonal if the room is big enough to not have you sitting in a corner. You'll still want to use some bass absorption but at least you're not sitting in the width mode that is also the length mode.
+1.
Best,
Anand.
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+2 on the diagonal Tony. I've had several diagonal setups with various speakers and the only thing that seemed consistent was it worked great with box speakers (Snell, PSB, Allison) but Maggie's didn't like it. There's almost a total lack of early sidewall refraction as by it's nature those sound waves bounce around before getting to your ears. You do want to keep the speakers well away from the corner behind them, but with 17² that shouldn't be an issue. And contrary to long or short wall placement, having equipment racks, TV stands, other junk, between the speakers seems to help. The speakers themselves were always placed proud of the racks which were further in toward the corner, but I'm guessing it broke up some early refractions. Best of luck with the new home.
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Letitroll98,
Disagree about having "junk" between speakers. Have always found that the "junk" blocks the soundstage, when against the wall, whether the speakers are close to the wall or well out. Suggest what some audiophiles did decades ago - use amp stands (low single shelf "racks") for placing all the gear just off the floor.
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Only in corner placement JLM. You made me a convert for long or short wall placement that lowboy racks or alternate walls for audio racks are best.
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A diagonal setup, I don't think that I've run across that before other than in a Home Theater or Family/Living Room.
George, given my constraints with my HT set up in my family room I was forced into such a set up and it can work. But as others have said, it is speaker, room treatment and seating position dependent. Luckily for the OP, while his room may be square, it's a good size square which helps.
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Only in corner placement JLM. You made me a convert for long or short wall placement that lowboy racks or alternate walls for audio racks are best.
I agree with JLM, I want nothing within the 'triangle' (area between L/R speakers and my ears) for it will never help a soundstage.
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I guess a flight down to FL is in order to look at this in person. :lol: Hopefully it’ll still be on the market while I’m getting over this cough. :duh:
I had previously found a house that had a completely perfect looking 14x26 bonus room. The house was sold even before I could get my rump down there to see it. :cry:
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Will they let you on a plane with a cough or fever with the current health scare?
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That hadn’t occurred to me. I hadn’t heard any restrictions of that sort.
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George, given my constraints with my HT set up in my family room I was forced into such a set up and it can work. But as others have said, it is speaker, room treatment and seating position dependent. Luckily for the OP, while his room may be square, it's a good size square which helps.
I once heard M/L CLS's at a stereo store in a heavily treated squarish room (cubic as it was tall too), they resorted to a nearfield listening position.
It was like listening to a giant pair of headphones, but in a cool way.
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Yep, first exposure to non-desktop near-field can feel like a cross between in-room and headphones. Years ago had a very wide mid-field (speakers 10ft apart, 8ft from listening position) setup, thanks to "Late Ceiling Splash" tweeters the center soundstage remained intact. Unfortunately moving back to a stereo power amp from mono-blocks reduced the reach of my captive speaker cables (a remnant of my purist days), so no longer an option. The advantage of the very wide mid-field over equilateral mid-field was a larger presentation.
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Well, it’s settled. I happened upon a house that had the right combination of house + location + cost + all the other stuff. It will provide me with a 14x16x9 room that I’ll be able to call my own. :thumb:
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Damn, that's pretty sweet, Tony!! Congrats!
Pictures or it didn't happen. :lol: Sorry just kidding. It would be nice to see your system setup in your new room when you get there.
Yeah, me want to see those Shahinian Diapasons in their new digs.
As a teaser here is my setup and I just measured the layout and I am in a perfect equilateral triangle at 10' on each side. 5 feet behind and at least 7 feet to the side walls. I just need some diffusion between the Maggies and some position tweaking.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203951)
Oops, This picture is out of date! I'm not using the Analysis Plus Big Silver Ovals at this moment. The JENA Labs Twin 19's are between the X350.5 and the 3.6r's. Also I see my JENA Labs Symphony XLR interconnects, that's also incorrect as I'm not using the Audio Experience A2 all balanced preamp. I'm using the YBA Signature 2-chassis preamp (which turned out to have incredible synergy with the X350.5) and my Cardas Golden Cross RCA I/C's. For those interested.
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Thanks Jake. My Shahinians, as it will turn out, will be relegated to secondary service in the house’s so called great room (how pretentious). It’s 17x20 and is too asymmetric and has too many openings to be IMO a proper sound room. It’s also in what I call the house’s common space. My system is in a room like that now, and I was determined not to do that again for my main system. So the 14x16 will be hosting my new reference (to me) speakers - my Von Schweikert Endeavor SE’s. That will be the no compromise music room. The Shahinians will make music in the common space as part of a secondary system.
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Exercising control over all that happens in your audio room is a great place. Nice work.
Enjoy it!
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You can also set up on the diagonal if the room is big enough to not have you sitting in a corner. You'll still want to use some bass absorption but at least you're not sitting in the width mode that is also the length mode.
This is probably your best option. Combined with absorption that can yield good results.