[mgsboedmisodpc2]

Well it is time to decide what to do.
My model 3 8 inch woofers are making crackling voice coil damage noise.
I just got a quote from vandersteen that the repair of on 8 inch driver is $220. And both woofers are making noise.
So that makes 440 or 16 percent of the cost of upgrading the MODEL 3 to MODEL 3a signature where I get a model 5 tweeter and a model 5 pleated midrange cone a new set of sound anchors stands and a speaker that goes 3 DB louder and will be harder on my Prima Luna AMP because it is closer to a 4ohm speaker than the older model 3.


220.00 * 2 = 440.00 vandersteen audio

2,690.00 current upgrade cost

16.36% actual cost

Of course I will have to order a model 3A shipping box which should not be too expensive and I will have to shop UPS/ or FEDEX at a cost of $400 less I contact a NYC dealer whom can suggest a ship it for me.

One of the reasons I have not upgraded is because I just happened to like the sound of the model 3 and yes I know the 3aS is a great improvement I was satisfied.

[George3]

It would appear from this most recent post that you are now faced with having to make a decision.  In my previous posts to your questions on another thread regarding this same question, I provided, for your consideration, my opinion that upgrading to the 3A Signature was the way to go.  The differences between the 3/3A Signature are so significant, so immediately beneficial that really no deliberation should be necessary save for the financial considerations. In other words, if financially it can be done there would be no question in my mind that you should go for the 3A Sig.  If, as you say, you like your 3’s, then you will absolutely adore the 3A Signature. 

I was a bit surprised to learn from this post that you are using a Prima Luna power amp with your 3’s although you do not identify which one.   First off, let me just say that PL makes some wonderful equipment and I have heard most of what they make and in my opinion they are one of the best bang-for-the-buck tube equipment makers out there today. Several months ago I listened to 5A’s driven by the exquisite sounding PL Mystere pre and a Pass 150.5. Sounded wonderful.

However, given the efficiency, or lack thereof, in Vandersteen speaker’s, I rather doubt that you are getting anywhere near the full capabilities of the speaker that is driven by any 30-60 watt amp.  Vandersteen speakers love juice and require lots of it in order to sound their best. I think whatever sound you have now with your 3’s would be significantly enhanced by using a more appropriate amp to compliment the speaker and even more so should you decide to upgrade to the 3A Sig.
 
Regarding shipment. As I stated in the earlier post, I caution you in using UPS/FedEx for shipment of these speakers.  They should be on pallets. I think Vandersteen can arrange for a truck freight pickup at your home and I am pretty sure that this is the only way they will ship the speakers back to you.  Your 3A’s should come back to you in new boxes which if I am not mistaken is included in the price of the conversion.

Best Regards,
George

[geowak]

It would appear from this most recent post that you are now faced with having to make a decision.  In my previous posts to your questions on another thread regarding this same question, I provided, for your consideration, my opinion that upgrading to the 3A Signature was the way to go.  The differences between the 3/3A Signature are so significant, so immediately beneficial that really no deliberation should be necessary save for the financial considerations. In other words, if financially it can be done there would be no question in my mind that you should go for the 3A Sig.  If, as you say, you like your 3’s, then you will absolutely adore the 3A Signature. 

I was a bit surprised to learn from this post that you are using a Prima Luna power amp with your 3’s although you do not identify which one.   First off, let me just say that PL makes some wonderful equipment and I have heard most of what they make and in my opinion they are one of the best bang-for-the-buck tube equipment makers out there today. Several months ago I listened to 5A’s driven by the exquisite sounding PL Mystere pre and a Pass 150.5. Sounded wonderful.

However, given the efficiency, or lack thereof, in Vandersteen speaker’s, I rather doubt that you are getting anywhere near the full capabilities of the speaker that is driven by any 30-60 watt amp.  Vandersteen speakers love juice and require lots of it in order to sound their best. I think whatever sound you have now with your 3’s would be significantly enhanced by using a more appropriate amp to compliment the speaker and even more so should you decide to upgrade to the 3A Sig.
 
Regarding shipment. As I stated in the earlier post, I caution you in using UPS/FedEx for shipment of these speakers.  They should be on pallets. I think Vandersteen can arrange for a truck freight pickup at your home and I am pretty sure that this is the only way they will ship the speakers back to you.  Your 3A’s should come back to you in new boxes which if I am not mistaken is included in the price of the conversion.

Best Regards,
George

Although I am not totally in disagreement with this statement I can add something here...

I have Vandersteen 2CE SIG II speakers. I bought them new from a dealer near me in Shaker Heights, OH. The audio dealer is Don Better Audio. When I contacted him about getting speakers, he suggested these for the budget I had. He had them connected to a Musical Fidelity M6500i dual mono integrated SS amp. It puts out about 500 watts at 8 ohm. A very nice amplifier with loads of current. The 2CE SIG II sounded stunningly beautiful to me ears. At that point I thought the Vandersteen speakers needed lots of power. I bought the speakers, but just could not afford a 3K amp.

Fast forward about 2 months. My dealer, who knew I was looking for a quality integrated, wanted me to hear his newest line of amps, Line Magnetic Audio. The one he had set up for me to listen to was a tube amp, the 216IA. This amp puts out 22 watts in triode mode and 38 watts in ultralinear mode. It sounded very, very good. We only cranked it to 1/3 power and the speakers were LOUD in a room at least 25ft by 20ft. To me it sounded as good or better than the Musical Fidelity. I think the LM Audio amp is in the same ball park as your Primaluna. Maybe, just maybe you can drive the 3A's with the amp you have, if you room is not huge.

You might have to ask Vandersteen audio if the 3A are that much harder to drive than the 2 CE Sig II with a tube amp.

My two cents..

[mgsboedmisodpc2]

I own a Prima LUNA 5 and just had to replace a 12au7 recently in fact and so I replace the pair 12ax7 as well.  Would have thought the power tubes would have had to be replaced first but guess not.

Yes expense is a primary factor mostly because of the factories cash only payment system, COD or certified BANK CHECK only.

I also use an old Onkyo M501 amp 150wpc and am still on the hunt for an old NAD 275 or Mccormack DNA 0.5 both of which are/were on EBAY recently yet I did not pull the trigger because of how well the prima LUNA changed the sound stage presentation thru the model 3s.  I really do not like high powered amps because of the damage they can do to drivers. I had to replace the mid bass driver of my old RadioShack Optimus Pro LX5 loudspeaker because the Onkyo drove the LX5 cone driver to destruction yet the leaf ribbon tweeter survived.

Well maybe I will just order the box for now and begin researching freight company costs.

But in the mean time I am for sure on the lookout for an early VANDERSTEEN quarto example that used some model three parts before VANDERSTEEN upgraded all of the quarto’s parts.

[George3]

Geowak,


I don’t suppose that there are many people who would tow a 5,000 lb. trailer with a 4-cylinder sedan. Yet, I would imagine that it is done everyday.  In much the same way, driving Vandersteen 2 or 3’s with a low power amp, in my opinion, does not allow the speakers to perform optimally with a wide genre of music.

However, and please, this however is vitally important; the fact that you have found a combination that works and pleases you is all that really matters.

Unfortunately, I have not had such a revelation. I own a 40-watt, triode, which I use in my second system and which I love. When inserted with my 3’s does it work?  Oh, yes. Vocals and single instruments sound wonderful.  When more complex music is played it sounds anemic, constricted with ill-defined and minimal bass and the overall presentation is unexceptional to my ears.

Mr. Vandersteen, like many speaker manufacturers, provides a recommended power amplification for his speakers much like car manufacturers provide towing capacities for their vehicles.  Should you choose to exceed or not meet that specification doesn’t make you wrong or right.  And, this has really nothing to do with who is right or wrong for I am absolutely delighted that you have reached audio nirvana with your combination.

[jjc1]

  In the Vandrsteen manual, which can be seen in the Vandersteen website, Richard suggests 100 to 200 watt amps for the 3A. I drive my Quattros with a Cary SLI 80 which is 50 watts triode, 80 ultralinear. I almost always listen in triode and almost never go above half volume with very nice results. However, Richard suggests 30 to 200 watt amps for the Quattros. So I guess the 3As are not as efficient and need more power. You can always ask a question on the Vandersteen sight and get an answer from Richard.

[mgsboedmisodpc2]

Guess you guys live in houses.
I do have neighbors and I try not to compete with the rolling audio systems passing by.
My prima LUNA 5 creates lots of heat and even the transformers get hot and yes the electric bill has risen and I have thought about upgrading to mono block tubes as a future possible upgrade.

[mgsboedmisodpc2]

But I have read about others whom own higher ouput VTLs not like the result with the Vandersteen model 2 or 3.

[geowak]

It appears that the recommended amplified power for both models of Vandersteen speakers are different. The 2CE SIG II
is 40-160 watts at 8 ohms. The 3A is 100-200 watts with an amp stable to 4 ohm.

This would make a difference if I owned the 3A's myself, since I would be worried if the Primaluna could do the job without over taxing the amp, or not producing the best results for my speakers.

In the interest of the best advice for the OP's question, this is what I would do.. Keep in mind, this is IMHO only.

I would determine if I liked the 3A's or the Primaluna most. I would then sell the other and find a match for the one I kept. (In your case, since you do not have the 3As, It would mean replacing both the amp and the speakers.) If liked the Primaluna the most, I would find another speaker from Vandersteen or another company.

So I guess I agree with George3....others may chime in.

[*Scotty*]

In as much as the woofers in both channels have failed, it might be a good time to look into the causes of the failure. Without having some idea of what caused both woofers to fail at about the same time there is no guarantee that exactly the same thing won't happen in the future.
 A typical 8inch woofer with a 35mm voice coil has a continuous power rating of 60 watts and a peak power rating of 120 watts. These are thermal limits the driver has that are a function of its ability to remove the heat that is generated in the voice coil during operation. These power ratings are not related to the drivers physical excursion limits which may be exceeded by far lower power levels than those imposed by the thermal limits and are related to the frequency the driver is attempting to reproduce.
Scotty

[geowak]

One more thing.

I think some of the Salk speakers are a good match for Primaluna amps.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0710/salk_sound_veracity_ht1_tl.htm

I also heard the Songtowers are very popular.

[mgsboedmisodpc2]

Just in case anyone wanted to know the track I was playing which revealed the problem is the first 30 seconds of :
track:  Like A Dream
Artist:  Patrice Rushen, Darek Oleszkiewicz, Ndugu Chancler
Album:  Piano, Bass & Drum
AIX RECORDS AIX 80009
The stereo mix

[*Scotty*]

Did you buy the speakers new or used and has Vandersteen said there were any problems with the woofers in the 3s?
Scotty

[mgsboedmisodpc2]

used and no pblm with woofer though I do play DNB type of music from time to time LP, CD and computer and two channel movies with lots of LFE and actually thought about purchasing a 2Wq but no movement there yet

[*Scotty*]

The movies with the LFE are probably what killed the woofers and will probably kill a 3A as well. You might seriously consider a repair job and a sub. One way or another you need to get the LFE and the DnB out of your 3s or 3As, They are not going to take this kind of material over the long term.
Scotty

[mgsboedmisodpc2]

Just had my Vandersteen model 3 8 inch woofers not rebuilt but according to Vandersteen they needed only to have the cone glued to the surround.  They had no voice coil damage so a good thing for this expense will not be seen as a waste of money since my ultimate goal is to have them upgraded to signature status one day. Interestingly enough the cost of this repair was cheaper than the rebuilding of my model 2ce woofers. I suppose that back in the 90s the model 2ce and model 3 used the same 8 inch drivers which worked differently in different box loading conditions.  I should receive the drivers next week and cannot wait to play my bass heavy recordings moderately loud thru my PRIMALUNA 5 after soldering red dot to red wire connections. 

[mgsboedmisodpc2]

Just finished soldering the wires and installing the woofers and am currently listening though I will glue the drivers on properly with a silicone sealant as per vandersteens recommendations later in the weekend.  Lastly restapling the cloth at the bottom afterwards.  This is the second set of vandersteens that I have removed and sent in for repair the eight inch driver for full rebuilding or just regluing.  I am glad I did and after a time the upgrading bug will hit and ......

To the many vandersteen owners out there operating their speakers with in need of repair 8 inch woofers get them fixed and enjoy