AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vintage Circle => Topic started by: S Clark on 14 Oct 2017, 03:57 am
-
Last week I picked up a pair of Altec Valencia 846A-16ohm speakers in a Heath Kit cabinet. Pictures to follow.
Condition: One horn had an open voice coil, but everything else was working fine. Cabinets are stained dark, dark walnut with nearly a mm of old yellow polyurethane. Tops are bad, sides are decent. Grill cloth has damaged spots... may recover later and place an black expanded metal grill in front similar to stock Valencias.
To date: I've stripped the poly off the tops with a heat gun and a razor blade... came off easy in large strips without taking the finish.
New voice coils came in from Great Plains Audio and replaced the shot coil. Interesting, these flat copper wire voice coils develop weak spots and end up bent at 90* and then break there.
Note: Because I'm not quite right, I decided to see if I could solder a wire in place. Took a section of fine multistrand wire from an old usb mouse, and after many foul expletives, managed to get both leads "repaired". Who know how long they will hold when attached to the diaphragm of a compression driver? But it can be done.
I'll test every thing tomorrow, then start refinishing the top. If I like the way it turns out, I'll strip the whole cabinet and do it right. And this time, I'll take pictures. There is a pic in a photobucket that I can't post that shows the sharp bending on the voice coil leads. These aren't long for this world... if you can pull it up.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=dGm3q2BQ&id=745BAA2CCC8FF1A2DBD2985461D9037D79566FBB&thid=OIP.dGm3q2BQdA-X3rrBV7GPyAEsDh&q=broken+altec+voice+coil&simid=608002487122397538&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0
Here's the ugly repair
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169827)
-
My cabinet has a routered trim, but aren't as pretty... for now. 15 in woofer, multicell horn mid/tweeter
(http://www.lajazz.jp/images/Audio/HP/ALTEC_846A_Valencia/ALTEC_846A_Valencia_011.jpg)
-
This will be a fun project. Please send pics as progress continues! :thumb:
-
The late great Zilch did a great modification to the Altec 19 crossover (nicknamed the Z19 or A19Z). One challenge is dealing with the 811 horn, which is not the best for domestic reproduction.
-
I've done a bit of reading about the Great Zilch. However, I've decided to go a different direction. In two weeks I'm taking one of these up to Iowa Park, TX, home of the Great Danny Richie to get him to design a crossover and look for ways to get the most out of these drivers and cabinets. I'm sure Zilch had some great mods, but Danny is one of the top 5 on the planet, so I'm eager to see what he can come up with.
And I've read also about the 811 horn... words like "ringing" and "harsh" are common. Some have dampened them to describe them as "dead" and "harsh". All that said, I've still heard a pair, for a short duration, that were actually quite involving and decently detailed. At the end of the day, I'll make judgements with what I hear vs what I read and report back.
-
This is an awesome plan!!!! Let us know what Danny cooks up for you and enjoy those big beautiful Valencias.
-
Yes, please, keep us posted on the progress complete with pics where possible!
(Gratuitous post to follow thread.)
-
Note: Because I'm not quite right, I decided to see if I could solder a wire in place. Took a section of fine multistrand wire from an old usb mouse, and after many foul expletives, managed to get both leads "repaired". Who know how long they will hold when attached to the diaphragm of a compression driver? But it can be done.
For these types of repairs on fine stranded voice coils I have used silver conductive epoxy with great success. No heat/soldering needed to risk causing more damage.
-
That's a great tip! Thanks, Bregez. Which brand do you use? Some on Amazon have some pretty poor reviews.
Now for some morning pics.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169853)
There it is, one old, beat up, Altec Valencia.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169854)
That old Polyurethane must have been troweled on originally. Came off with heat and a razor blade.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169855)
This has a quick rub with a walnut finish restorer. It's actually darker than that photo.
-
Cool project Scott, they look a lot like my Pi4 horns. Have fun!
-
Cool project Scott, they look a lot like my Pi4 horns. Have fun!
Actually I was thinking about you and your Pi's this morning, wondering if Wayne would have any insights into tweaking this speaker.
-
Congrats on the Altec purchase!
From your picture; looks like those might be made out of Golden Oak then stained and clear coated over the years.
I have model 19’s and model 14’s. Couldn’t be any a happier really. The 19’s came with a foam cover that damps the mouth of the 811 horn. You can buy new replacements on the net for $35 bucks a pair. Don’t know how they would fit behind your grills, but I would put them on if possible before serious listening or Danny,s measurements.
I also agree that Danny is easily in the top 5 designers in the industry. I am super excited to see what he comes up with on the classic Altec Valiencia crossover. His voicing talent is perhaps the very best in the industry.
The Altec woofers are right up his alley, perhaps the best paper drivers ever made. The GPA drivers continue that heritage. You really need to hear the 12” paper woofer in the model 14’s it is better than anything currently available.
As for me, I restored the crossovers with new Sonicaps and left everything else stock; even the lively box and fiberglass inflill. I place the Altec’s up against the rear wall and use a Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 to fix the in room response and use the digital high pass on the Altec’s at 60hz to clean up the mids. A good subwoofer is a big help. Not much going on at 20-40hz on the Altec’s. Where they excell is at 40-16000hz.
It’s like live a live mic feed in my room. Audiophile stuff sounds broken after you hear a dialed in pair of Altec’s.
You are going to have a LOT of fun on this project. :thumb:
-
Very nice! I'm all about horns at this point myself. They are so engaging and lively, an unexpected turn for me after years of narrow baffled towers and all the 'audiophile' trimmings. I'll be following your progress.
-
I agree that these were originally oak cabinets, Heath Kit origin- although the drivers don't have the "made for HeathKit" marking common to the HK AS101 speakers. Bu there is no going back to a light color after the oak was stained very dark. I'd go through the veneer before getting white, unstained oak.
That foam looks interesting... basically open cell foam on the throat and outer edges. I may trim some No-Rez to fit. I'm not surprised that you kept the "empty" box. As you probably observed, the designers used fiberglass on one side, and not the other... by choice obviously. It will be interesting to see what Danny thinks. I know he hates resonating boxes... but he'll come up with something.
-
This actually started about a year ago when I took some tube amps to a Dallas area tech (Frank Mufich). After some conversation, we went to his listening room where he had a pair of Valencia's, and you know what, they actually sounded good. Not good for vintage, but actually good. Now I've got good speakers with the LS9's, so it's not like I haven't something to compare to.
So when helping a friend that runs a record store move warehouse inventory, there were these old Altecs with no markings on them. They didn't know what they were, and even after telling them what they had, they still sold them to me for $200.
So two voice coils later (bought a spare), a can of restorer, I'm in for just under 400.
-
Dynamat or other automotive deadeners are often used on the outside of the horns.
-
Dynamat or other automotive deadeners are often used on the outside of the horns.
I've read of some using that. I've also got lots of Plasticene (clay). Heck, I've got TT's practically made of the stuff as recommended by our late Chair Guy.
-
Very cool.
You can put a hot rag over indents and steam with iron to pull wood up. Then lightly sand and apply your color/oil & later finish just like anything else.
You could invent ways to brace the cab but make the braces removable.
Danny will be looking to sell you some No-rez over the nasty fiberglass, Im sure.
-
With the 811 horns, adding dampening behind the flange does very little to tame the resonance. The rounded “lips” on the horn mouth exposed to the room is the issue. The horn is not really a true multi-cell as the vanes don’t go deep enough into the throat to be effective.
The vanes are actually part of the ringing problem. Some people cut out the vanes but that’s a bit of work due to the refinishing needed. The simple fix was installed at the factory on the 19’s. The foam damps the lips quite effectively even with the vanes in left in place. Well worth the $35.00. It comes shaped (tapered) perfectly just like the factory units.
As for the bracing and No-Rez, I am a huge fan of both. Look at some of the pics in my profile. My LS9’s were as braced as any pair ever built. My Baltic birch Super V’s also had No-Rez and automotive dampening sheets everywhere. Even under the cabinet on the bottom.
The Altec’s were designed to have some box resonance. Your pair may not be “factory” cabinets, but if well made, and they probably were, they should be close. You might want to do some listening before installing the No-Rez. Some of the magic is in the box. You won’t find vinyl dampening in a kick drum, up-right bass or Cello for a reason.
Consider the early Altec’s more of a musical instrument. They are different from modern offerings indeed. I happen to like those differences. The LS9 has great bass. The super V is even better. In my rig the Altec’s are as lifelike in the bass as both of those reference level designs. Even with with the “dual density fiber board” box and little bracing to be found. Heck even the port in the 14 and 19 is just a square vent. But it works better than it should. Made me re-think everything I thought I knew about speaker design.
There is a reason Altecs dominated the competition in most of the serious recording studios during the 60’s, 70’s and even to the 80’s. They were far better engineered than they appear on the surface.
-
For these types of repairs on fine stranded voice coils I have used silver conductive epoxy with great success. No heat/soldering needed to risk causing more damage.
Never heard of that. Interesting. Sounds like a possible solution for broken foil traces on PCB's also.
-
Nickd, I've looked at some of the foam inserts for the 19's. I assume they have the same 811 horn? Also, I may have to modify the foam to keep it from covering the space next to one side of the horn as it acts as a port in the Valencia. I'll have both speakers playing tomorrow, so I'll start the evaluation process. It'll take a week or so to get the foam inserts. Thanks for the tip.
Interesting that you like the SuperV bass better than the 9's. I agree it's a tiny bit faster, but I'm not sure it does piano, bassoons, and bass as well... just not as "meaty" or resonant to my ears. But for sure, the Super V's are easier to place in a room. The 9's are damned tricky to get right.
-
Nickd,
Where did you find those foam inserts? Can't find a pair south of Ontario. I may try to make some if I can't find a pair that I can trust to be here before I head to Danny's.
-
That's a great tip! Thanks, Bregez. Which brand do you use? Some on Amazon have some pretty poor reviews.
I use the Chemtronics CircuitWorks epoxy. I think the poor reviews come from people who mix it wrong and use it as a solder replacement which it is not. I just fixed a SEAS tweeter on a Dynaco A25 last week that the thin voice coil wire had fatigued and failed going into the coil. A solder fix would be impossible as the heat would burn off the varnish on the coil wires causing a short. You just scrape some of the varnish off the failed wires and glue them together with the epoxy.
-
My foam came from that guy in Canada . Shipping was a reasonable i think. Worth the cost and effort. Most people have never heard the 19’s with the foam. They all rotted over 40 years. You might be able to trim the port side if needed. The 811b horn is in the same in both models.
The 19 has a more advanced crossover. I hope Danny comes up with something special for the Valencia. Lots of owners would be interested. Perhaps a Stereophile review? I think a couple of reviewers use them as reference speakers.
-
There is a chance the loose box helps keep Q higher. Dampening too much lowers the Q.
Easy solution is to just add some in series resistance to the speaker to compensate and see if the box tuned up more without dropping the Q real low is the trick. That's certainly why I suggested no permanent application of bracing etc.
-
Outside of playing around with some foam, I'm going to leave it as is until I get it to Danny. I've been listening off an on between chores this morning and afternoon. I've got to say, there's a lot to be said for putting a set of speakers at the opening of your garage and listening on the driveway! Talk about on open room. Don't know if it is the speakers or the placement, but talk about a wide soundstage!!
I understand the love/hate relationship with horns a bit better. What these old Valencias do well is really impressive (vocals), what they are missing is replaceable (deep clear bass), and what they don't do well may be a deal breaker (harsh upper piano). But those vocals-Emmylou Harris accompaniment on "North Dakota" on Lovette's "Joshua Judges Ruth" is as good as my LS9's... maybe better. But it's also true I don't lug the 9's out to the back yard to listen reflection free.
-
Outside listening is flat out awesome... Very conducive to OB's.
A quick experiment you could try, stuff the box with polyfill, somewhat lightly. Does it sound too constrained, but maybe cleaner bass? Now put a 2.6ohm (approx) resistor in series with each speaker, see how you like it. That will tell you a lot about the box vs. Q factor. A 1/4w resistor or two 5.2ohm ones in parallel per speaker will be fine for testing with any amp that's low power.
-
I've got all I need to try your suggestions. Will report back. In the meantime I've got to get a better look at cabinet internal. Not exactly sure this Heathkit cabinet completely matches the stock Valencias. If Danny does a crossover I need to make sure it will work for other Va!encia speakers.
-
I've got speaker cloth ordered. Can't directly show, but here it is on a cabinet nearly identical to mine (click on second picture). It's sort of an in between of the stock Altec and the stock Heathkit. Fitting, as my cabinet is clearly a variant of the Heathkit version, but the drivers are clearly Altec, not Heathkit made by Altec. Hey, it's just the cost of a nice Japanese knive that I've been coveting... only money, right. Quality is lasting, cash is fleeting... right???
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Radio-Speaker-Grille-Cloth-18x24-Blk-Diamond-rev-HOLIDAY-SALE-/172927008287?hash=item284340be1f:g:HlIAAOSwm3ZZui1p
Here's the cloth:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170061)
-
"Following" :thumb:
-
That speaker cloth looks familiar. It was one of my finalists but my wife chose the swiggly design. The guy I bought it from (same as yours probably) made a very nice little wooden frame to mount the cloth.
BTW... I went around the block on various internal stuffing, wool and padding. I eventually settled on nothing. As does Shindo. And bracing proved to be a huge improvement.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170079)
-
I have a pair of late 614 cabinets, and they are sparsely line with yellow fiberglass, including a rigid bat resting diagonally from bottom left corner to top right corner.
The general consensus has been to not overstuff or overdamp the cabinets. There are a number of Altec enthusiasts who have followed this path.
-
That speaker cloth looks familiar. It was one of my finalists but my wife chose the swiggly design. The guy I bought it from (same as yours probably) made a very nice little wooden frame to mount the cloth.
BTW... I went around the block on various internal stuffing, wool and padding. I eventually settled on nothing. As does Shindo. And bracing proved to be a huge improvement.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170079)
Those look very nice! A big improvement over the appearance of the speakers shown in your systems page.
-
Those do look very nice. 6 cubic feet is not a very big box for a high efficiency system.
This looks like your own version of a WE753C. Did you ever finish the crossover?
The P15ll is interesting to me. For its size, it is not the bass powerhouse you would expect it to be. Assuming it is similar to the Altec 515, it would appear to have more in common with the 414 than the 416. Coincidently, a pair of 414's comes close to equaling a single 515.
-
I don't want to hijack this thread, so, I'm going to stick with the subject at hand... The Valencias.
I too contacted Danny about crossovers, but was unable to get my speakers to him, so I didn't get very far.
I'm hoping it's a good thing because it's forcing me to do it myself.
I'm not sure about your DIY enthusiasm but I would advise that you stay flexible and experiment. Some of that flexibility includes:
low end bass management- I found it best not to ask too much of your woofers. They are covering a lot of bandwidth and to try to get them down to or below 40 or 50 hz is a bit aggressive. But maybe Danny can do it. I ended up using sub-woofers and a Berhinger processor to equalize and cover 80hz and less. I am using Infinite Baffle that are actually time aligned w the main drivers. it load the room like a dream and can't live w/out them now. The ultimate would be to use Danny's open baffle subs... maybe some day.
The attenuation between the woofer and the CD and the woofer: My crossover allows for the swapping of resisters in the shunt and series position. You will need to flexibility here to match the room it's in. I have added a picture of cool way to do the resisters (Credit- Volti Audio). You may also want to ask Danny to build an attenuating network to eak out the last bit on the highest end. The CD is waay more efficient than the woofer, so, you have some room to play w here. This will go a long way to customizing this speaker to your room and ultimately the music you listen to. The CD and horn is a powerful wild animal that needs to be tamed to your domestic environment. I'm not familiar with the 811, so, I can't help you there except I know it has some problems that needs to be addressed.
Stuffing- When people tell you to do this or that, don't believe them. You will have to experiment yourself. Don't be in a hurry here. Live w something for a month or two then make a change. If you want to hurry the process, find a good mono reference recording and do one speaker and listen to the difference. Same with ports and bracing. Changing bracing and ports sounds daunting but I can describe how to do it easily.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170116)
Crossover Components It is my opinion (and probably not Danny's) that old school PIO caps are the way to go in certain positions in the crossover. This subject really deserves it's own thread so I'll be brief here... Just make sure that you tell Danny to allow room for some BIG caps. I would recommend trying some cheapo Russian caps from Ebay. From there it gets a little exotic (trying to find them but not necessarily in price compared to Duelands etc..).
And my last piece of advice... Altecs are from California, so be very zen like w da Altec's. Don't try to make these speakers something they are not. Swim downstream and try accentuate their strengths. You want to go for natural and smooth and you will be awarded with dynamics that will blow your mind and melt your face (as the Dead Heads like to say) ... and regular off the shelf speakers will sound like crappy boom boxes. And oh yea, last but not least- Tube Amps only please!
-
Advice taken, Lokie. I've always thought the bass would be supplemented with an OB servo, so we can cut the bass off at about 100 Hz. My main goal is to tame what we can of the horn harshness that I hear as volume increases.
And I agree, these aren't 30-18000 Hz +-2 dB flat kind of speakers. I already have those. What they are is incredibly smooth and involving midrange with a huge soundstage.
In the end, I'll build the crossover- probably externally. I like the way your resistors are removable.
Yeah, Danny is a detail guy and loves his Sonicaps (for good reason). But his also is a big fan of Jupiter Cu/wax. I like Mundorf Ag/oil but I'll start looking at some paper in oil options. Once I know the values, I'll try to pick up some options to play with.
As for DIY, everything in the house has been put together by me. I've built or overseen the build of probably 150 or so pairs of speakers... so a little bit of bracing or adding a port is a piece of cake. In the photo below, you can see an 8"x8" panel with a sticker on it. That actually covers about a 6" circular cut out on the back panel... perfect place for a port without really altering the cabinet.
(http://www.soundup.ru/images/stories/archive/Classic/Columns/altec-846a-valencia-speaker-cabinet-1969/altec-846a-valencia-speaker-cabinet-1969-5.jpg)
My hopes are to tame this horn. If we can do that, these speakers are keepers. If not, they'll get spruced up with a bit of refinish, new grills, new voice coils, and they'll move on. But IF they can be tamed, wow, they do some things soooo gloriously.
-
I thought you might enjoy a look at this thread about a Valencia restore-
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/altec-valencia-846u-restore.792159/
-
I thought you might enjoy a look at this thread about a Valencia restore-
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/altec-valencia-846u-restore.792159/
I continue to have a love-hate relationship with horns. I love the way they look but they always break my heart and prove to be too harsh for me. My in-house experience with horns came from Opera Connsonance Bargue M12s and my beloved Louis Erath LWE IIs. Both proved to be too harsh even with attenuators. I sold the Opera, gave the Erath's to a friend down on his luck. The harshness was always in the upper frequencies and not the middle frequencies as per the last post in Fred's linked thread. Strange, wouldn't think the harshness was in the mids but perhaps that's where I went wrong.
Anyway, good luck with the Valencias. I'm sure Danny can set them right.
Btw, When I was having trouble with the Operas, I talked with a Klipsch fanatic who told me he tamed his Fortes by adding a "deflex panel" to the inside back wall of the cabinet. Never tried it, just made a note of it.
-
Well, we'll find out in a week when they go to Iowa Park. There have been lots of folks try this and that. The late Zilch of AudioK and the Altec boards seemed to be the most prolific and scientific.
But none of these guys are professionals, and Danny is. I remember being with him as he was putting together the XO for the V1 speaker, and commenting that the upper piano was a bit hot- he agreed and changed a resistor by .5 ohm- seriously, 1/2 ohm- and it made just the right correction. The man knows his way around a crossover. All things are on the table, ports, horn mods, foam, mounting, bracing...
-
I keep reading the "anti-stuffing" clause, but if you don't understand how you can change the Q by using series resistors, the you are in the dark about whether stuffing is a full blown no-no or not. Scott, if you do the experiment now then Danny can work with the results if you end up favoring it. It's unlikely it'll be perfect as the relationship with the tweeter may get a bit off, but you'll know if you like the midrange and bass as a starting point.
I'm sure Danny can get the top end to be more friendly. If they are not on-axis to you, then you could also try putting some poly foam that is closed or open celled in the horn area so the polar pattern is more even. Might take some experimenting. Frankly I think horns on axis can be a bit much at times, so bleeding the main hot points from the horn might work to give you a more even response that isn't so intense off axis. Then it can be adjusted to volume with the crossover.
Also, that retro wave clothe is pretty coool.
-
I keep reading the "anti-stuffing" clause, but if you don't understand how you can change the Q by using series resistors, the you are in the dark about whether stuffing is a full blown no-no or not. Scott, if you do the experiment now then Danny can work with the results if you end up favoring it. Will do this evening
Also, that retro wave clothe is pretty coool. Thanks, I think it will dress up nicely
-
S Clark,
My hope for you and this project is that Danny embraces the strengths of the original design and just works his magic on the crossover. In my estimation, the most difficult challenge on the Valencia.
I used Sonicaps in my 14’s because I was trying to keep cost reasonable and they sound really great overall. When Danny sent me the Jupiter’s for my Super V’s, I was blown away at the improvement. I hope when values are established you decide to go that direction. The Altec 900 series of drivers with fresh GPA “farms” reach into the “legendary” category of good sound.
You won’t regret investment of time and $ on this project. Speakers with $500. 1” un-obtainum tweeters will sound broken and lifeless in comparison to the old school compression drivers with a proper crossover.
Sounds like you have the deep bass issue covered with your subs. On thing to remember with Altec’s, they are a window to the source. Just because they are a great value, doesn’t mean you can run them with a second class amp or source. They will let you know if you have issues up stream with 40+dB dynamics.
Upper registers of piano in my rig are simply breathtaking. Same with the lower mid’s and upper bass.
I think Danny is in for a challenge and perhaps a change of perspective with regards to the accomplishments of his predecessors in the 50’s, 60’s & 70’s.
Might also influence some fresh creative designs from GR in the future. :thumb:
Edited for typo.
-
The Valencias are loaded and head to GR-Research tomorrow after early morning coffee. I'm excited to see what can be done with these old guy! I'll report our findings on Saturday. :thumb:
-
I gotta tell ya, I think it is so cool you can just drive them over to Danny's. Have fun tomorrow, gents.
-
I gotta tell ya, I think it is so cool you can just drive them over to Danny's. Have fun tomorrow, gents.
Well, he's not exactly just around the corner, but 3+ hours isn't a long drive for Texas. And I have very high hopes that this will be a very worthwhile trip.
-
I am sure it will be.
-
Back from Danny Richie's place. After about 2 hours in the lab, things worked out better than Danny or I could have hoped for. Between a new crossover, a cabinet change, and foam tweeks this 50 year old Altec Valencia plays stunningly flat signal across it's range( a very long way from where it started!). That's the really, really good news. The not so good is that it's range leaves out most high frequency info.
I know I'm teasing a bit, but until I actually build out both crossovers, mount them, and do some listening, I'll not gush any further.
Graphs and listening impressions to come. Give Danny a computer, a mike, a handful of parts, and a bullfrog... and he'll give you a diva soprano.
-
Keep it all rolling!
-
but until I actually build out both crossovers, mount them, and do some listening,
So, the way I understand this is: he measures and designs and you buy the parts and assemble?
What did you listen to?
-
I guess this needs some back story. I've known Danny a long time, and have worked with him on a bunch of student speaker projects. I've even been around a few times as he was building his own crossovers. He has looked at dozens of crossovers that I've designed with my students and gave guidance that has always been helpful. During those years, I've learned to trust his way around a circuit and a cabinet. Measurements and graphs are powerful tools that can build help you build an accurate speaker. In the lab, a crossover is built from parts that are alligator clipped together in various combination, solving one problem at a time until you are satisfied that you have the best option available for a reasonable parts cost and time expended. With this horn, foam is cut and placed, measurements taken, and repeated with slight adjustments. Usually, a piece is played, but serious play time is reserved for home and extended listening. We spent a good part of the day working on this. Spent some time doing friends stuff. Bought some components (many of which I already had). Then it was time to start the trek home.
I'm actually not too bad with crossovers myself. With measurements, I might be able to find my way to a product that is 60-75% as good as what Danny can build. But what would take me days, Danny can do in a couple of hours, and the last 25% of improvements are things I'd never have found- including some bits of what we did with the Valencias.
What I know at this time is that we have a speaker that is far more accurate than what we started with. That's why I said that I'm excited about what I have seen (and heard). Accurate is usually better...But this process isn't finished. I don't intend to put forth more until I have built out the crossovers with good wire, cut and glue some foam, and listen. They will spend time in at least two locations with two different systems. Some foam may be added, a resistor changed- but not likely. Then I'll post graphs and listening impressions.
-
One of the best things you can do for classic compression drivers is replace the diaphragm with a Radian Audio model. Radian has been around since the 80's and one of their first products was replacement diaphragms for JBL and Altec compression drivers. They stuck with aluminum for the material (a great idea when compared with titanium which in my view is a bad choice) and were able to lower the distortion by a factor of 10 by using a mylar ring in the surround as opposed to serration ridges that both Altec and JBL used. I have been a Radial dealer for 25 years and their products stand the test of time.....
-
Hmmm, wish I had read about these before ordering a pair from Great Plains Audio.
-
Can’t wait to see what Danny came up with. :hyper:
Now curious about the radian frams. Have to read up in those. Have to say though, I have original frams in my drivers (tested by GPA), no desire to change. I’m not usually a fan of aluminum for mids and tweeters but Altec seems to be an exception. My Lyngdorf adds a little correction (DSP) up top for a flat response.
I don’t hear any nasty upper “oil can” resonance peaks in the 902 drivers like the early Seas and Focal domes had. Can’t wait to see Danny’s measurements.
Hope it makes to the GR website as a kit. Easy build or restoration of these American classics with original and new drivers available and simple boxes to build or refinish. Old school fun indeed.
-
Read up on the Radian frams,
Lots of mesurements and opinions on the web. Seems the radians are tough as nails and the pros like that aspect. They seem to sound better than the Altec heavy duty “symbiotic “ pro frams but fall short of the regular hi-fi OEM/GPA frams in Altec horns using Altec motors in a home environment.
Apparently you can clip the amps to the PA and not intrupt the show with a blown driver if using the Radians.
Most seem to prefer the GPA frams for Altec home hi-fi use. With JBL and other brands the Radians seem to have more acceptance.
Now back to the thread.... waiting for S Clark to solder some parts and listen to the Heath Kit boxed Valencia’s.
-
Can’t wait to see what Danny came up with. :hyper:
Can’t wait to see Danny’s measurements.
Ok,ok. Notice the scale. Each mark is only 1/2 db. Look at how that woofer smoothed out. That's about as good as it gets, period, much less for a 50 year old driver... and it certainly didn't look that way to begin with. But, if you're looking for high overtones, look elsewhere. You can't fix what's not there. But the main issue that I originally heard was a large peak at about 1700-1800Hz. It's been tamed to just a couple of db rise.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170427)
-
You should always wants a decent FR, but it's not everything - clearly - or these wouldn't sound good at all.
-
You should always wants a decent FR, but it's not everything - clearly - or these wouldn't sound good at all.
Yep, but what they had going for them was a very nice vocal range and a wide sound stage. Like I mentioned, the trick is to keep what works, and fix as many problems as you can. As it was, I couldn't have kept these speakers. That horn was unlistenable at moderate volume at that crucial 1700 Hz range. Jazz trumpet would drive you out of the room.
A flat response is a good place to start. I've got the crossovers soldered, but unmounted. I've got to cut out the grill of one speaker to gain access to the horn, cut and glue foam, mount the XO, and wire it in. Probably tomorrow before listening really takes place.
-
The old Altec Valencias have been playing for most of the morning with a wide variety of material.
James Taylor- Hourglass; great for evaluating vocals
Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers "Moanin' "- this cd has some bright trumpet by Lee Morgan that has a tendency to BLATT
Linda Ronstadt w/Nelson Riddle "What's New"- Linda's vocals are crystal clear, and when she let's go, can provide a challenge
Frederick Fennel Holst Suite#1 Telarc- Wide dynamic range, excellent low level detail.
Manhattan Jazz Quintet, "Funny Valentine"- wide dynamics, precise placement, highly detailed.
Mozart String Quartets, Barylli Quartet on Westminster- mono, clear, warm and intimate
First- I wish my listening room sounded as good as putting speakers at the mouth of my garage and listening in the driveway. Even with a $6 Chinese amp, and a battery operated portable cd player, and bell wire for hook up. Wow, if my room could sound as good as my driveway!! :( :(
After moving them inside, much of the amazing soundstage width disappeared.
Most, but not all, of the vocal clarity was retained, but they are no longer better than my LS9s, and before they were. I'll repeat that , they were better than my LS9's on vocals. Outside listening is amazing! Inside, they are now nearly as good as the LS9, better than the X-Statiks.
The crossover and foam cured 95% of the BLATT from Lee Morgan's trumpet, and any distortion from moments when Linda Ronstadt goes full volume. Bass is much cleaner, from Art Blakey's drums to low bassoon. Piano is very clean, resonant, and full ranged. They still sound "big", especially on Holst with full orchestra. The Barylli quartet had a warmth and resonance that the X-Statiks missed. But there is a failing with these old guys. The X-Statik's place instruments precisely, and the Altec's don't. Let's face it, they are 15"woofers playing into the 1200Hz range, with big horns. They don't put a the piccolo in 6 rows back and left of the conductor. The X-Statiks can do that. But the way the old Altecs played that mono string quartet is beguiling and engaging, not the X-Statiks strengths.
So, we took an interesting pair of old speakers with some strong points, kept the good, fixed the unlistenable portions, and just overall made them better.
I'm not going to replace the LS9's with them, yet, but I could and still have a very high quality system.
Tomorrow, I'll put the covers together and take some photos.
-
Did Danny get the parameters of the 15" ? The TS stuff? I'm curious. I'm sure he has a woofer tester.
Maybe the answer is to build a deck for listening and BBQ? You do live in TX...
-
Or you might realize you now have the best garage system in your neighborhood...maybe all of Abilene! Rock your neighbors! :drums: :guitar: :rock:
-
Did Danny get the parameters of the 15" ? The TS stuff? I'm curious. I'm sure he has a woofer tester.
Maybe the answer is to build a deck for listening and BBQ? You do live in TX...
You've got a PM on TS parameters.
As to the deck... I like that idea. The slab and BBQ part are already in place, just have to move 100 lb speakers back and forth.
-
Or you might realize you now have the best garage system in your neighborhood...maybe all of Abilene! Rock your neighbors! :drums: :guitar: :rock:
I have been, even though the closest one is 1/4 mile away. I live a few miles outside of town. There are advantages to country living. Even outdoors, you can crank up the volume. But I think Folsom is on to something. It may be time to fire up the BBQ and invite a bunch of folks out for some food and outdoor listening in the back yard.
-
Thanks for the listening notes S Clark.
I love the LS9’s too. In my room however I couldn’t tame the bass nodes they excited. I never considered DSP as I had never heard one that was transparent enough to satisfy me.
When I read a review on the Lyngdorf TDAI 2170, I thought what the heck, I should give one a try. I’ll sell the thing if it sounds bad. I wanted a new DAC anyway and It wasn’t crazy money. The tech used in the design was light years ahead of what most companies are putting out.
All I can say is if I had owned this amp when I built my LS9’s I would still have them. Using well designed DSP and digital crossovers is a game changer for room issues. I could never go back.
I have had some crazy good speakers overt the years, yet getting a well balanced in room response with killer imaging was almost impossible. One or two dB peak or null in the wrong place just bugs me after a few weeks. So I would sell the speakers and try to find something better.
You should hear the Altec’s with just a touch of DSP magic. They can’t Image like the LS9’s, nothing can. But they make lifelike music indeed.
Bring us up date this spring when you get them outside. going to impress yout guests for sure..
-
Cloth grills are done with a reversable fabric, black diamond on one side, gold diamond on the other.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170886)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170887)
-
I love those grills.
-
Thanks, Fred. I'm happy with the way they turned out also. Most importantly, my wife likes the way they look.
-
That's a "win win" right there. :thumb:
-
Are you trying to make the gold diamond look better by juxtaposing it next to some dog ass?
-
Are you trying to make the gold diamond look better by juxtaposing it next to some dog ass?
Hey, that's my listening partner you're talking about!
I had just put on some CSN&Y, and he was leaving the room. He only listens to jazz and classical. :thumb:
-
Your dog has excellent taste! He wasn't leaving due to the music choice, he just wanted to photobomb the shot with his butt.
Smart dog. Good dog.
-
Your dog has excellent taste! He wasn't leaving due to the music choice, he just wanted to photobomb the shot with his butt.
Smart dog. Good dog.
Thanks, I needed a laugh.
If those speakers sound as nice as they look you've got it made.
-
Those diamond grill cloths are icing on the cake. :thumb:
Where did you find them?
Thanks for taking us through your journey and sharing Dannys expertise with the old girls.
-
Those diamond grill cloths are icing on the cake. :thumb:
Where did you find them?
Thanks for taking us through your journey and sharing Dannys expertise with the old girls.
Kenneth Richmond of Richmond Designs Inc. He specializes in cloth for old radio restoration... lots of patterns to choose from and he'll cut to order.
Not as cheap as typical ebay stuff, but I thought it was worth a bit extra for a pattern that was a better match. Easy to deal with and good communications. http://www.richmonddesignsinc.com
-
Ok, I just joined AudioCircle today. I have a pair of Altec 416-8B's that were taken from a pair of Mid-1970's A7 Voice of The Theater cabinets. They were in bad shape with a radial rip in one, and a screwdriver hole in the cones and edge suspension on the other. I repaired these with coffee filter and PVC glue on the cone, and coffee filter with rubber cement on the edge. I put them temporarily in some cheap old carpeted DJ cabinets a friend gave me, and they sound fantastic. By cranking the bass a bit, I almost don't need the subwoofer. However, those cabinet volumes are too far below the Vas for the drivers, so I cannot port them effectively. I thought of building two Valencia's from scratch, with my own design for midrange and tweeters, not the 811 horns. The 416-8B's are some of the finest woofers ever made, but in my opinion the big horns were meant for theaters and PA systems, not for HiFi home use. We used them in our rock and roll bands for PA. My friend has some Valencia's he has had since we were teenager's in the 60's. They sound "honky" and harsh even powered by a McIntosh 275. Some of our more serious audiophile friends almost refuse to listen to them. Anyway, my idea is to cross the 416-8B's over at something below 200 Hz., use some good 10" bass guitar speakers I have to cover 200 HZ. to 3000 HZ. where they roll-off, a dynamic 4"x10" horn for 3000 Hz to 7000Hz, then maybe a high-quality piezo, or ring radiator above 7000Hz. These should theoretically sound much smoother and pleasing than the Valencias, while keeping that great bass response. I am a little puzzled by the port size in the Valencia's, as they appear in the photos to be only small slots on the sides of the 811 horn. I calculated a much larger port, or ducts similar to the Altec 846B. I would appreciate any constructive comments or suggestions.
-
Welcome to AC Sparky,
The 416 woofers you are working with will work in several size boxes. The Valencia to my knowledge did have a round port, however if memory serves, the box was a bit small for the 416. The Model 19 was more optimized for that driver.
You can look on the Great Plains Audio site for original Altec parts and lots of factory box info. They can put new factory recones in your woofer baskets too. The Altec users board on the net is also full of really knowledgeable Altec builders and restoration experts.
Enjoy the build, the 416 is indeed one of the best sounding 15” woofers ever made. They sound good well over 200hz too. It would surprise me if you can find a 10”woofer that will sound as good as a 416 from 200-1000hz.
-
Thanks , Nickd,. I will research the references you gave me. My thought was to go 4-way and use the 416's a!most as a subwoofer up to 200hz, but maybe I will crossover higher and let the 10 inch take 1000 Hz,to 3000 Hz,. I would just like to utilize the great bass response of the 416-8B without building a washing machine sized cabinet. I loaded enough of those to band gigs in my lifetime. Take care.
-
The Valencia A had slotted ports next to the woofer. The later model B had a round port. What we found when Danny Richie measured mine was that the best response was when we used some open cell foam on the horn, and ran the woofer open baffle. With the right crossover, it measured amazingly smooth and kept it's vocal clarity (Valencia's best feature)
-
Hi,
Any listening updates? Do you have the new crossover installed and are you listening sans back panel? Please share crossover details and photos.
Thanks for the interesting thread!
Regards,
Idler
-
Ok,ok. Notice the scale. Each mark is only 1/2 db. Look at how that woofer smoothed out. That's about as good as it gets, period, much less for a 50 year old driver... and it certainly didn't look that way to begin with. But, if you're looking for high overtones, look elsewhere. You can't fix what's not there. But the main issue that I originally heard was a large peak at about 1700-1800Hz. It's been tamed to just a couple of db rise.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170427)
Sorry to enter so late on this trend.
Just read it now.
But for guy whoi want to restore a pair of Valencia.
Don't be afaid from this graph.
The wood restauration is really good.
But for the compression driver.
something is really wrong there.
Me I suspect one of the 2 things: an Chinese diaphragm or uncalibrated microphone.
Cause the pics show a curv like a bad chinese one.
The chinese one I work with, were about the same curv, except a bit hy'er... around 9,500hz,
the reason to use it, it's just if client is in a thight budget, and wait to do better in near future.
But now, if I'm asked to do it, I discard the project, too bad for my work.
but lot's of other thing could be wrong to.... gasket....mics....computer,,,,gauss...diapragm placement...etc...etc...
But this compression, fall at 7.500hz.
Any altec with an altec diapragm will go a least to 12,500 ~ 14.500 easily, if measured with proper equipment.
Some with help of the cross over will even go through 18,200.
Me I don't work on Valencia. but from my experience with 825 and 828 cabinets and lots of 811/511 combo.
Can't see why an altec compression could be so different from an valencia cabinet to 828.
It's the horn, not the cabinet who influence the curv.
But this one need work, that's for sure.
So my conclusion is :
"Fix what it is there with proper components"
and you will get original sound.
Hope it will help guy who want to get nice pair of Valencia with original sound.
So go for it, you will enjoy it, and nobody will tell you that you HF is poor if done properly.
they will put too much concentration on tapping their feet to music.
Not lot's of people ear a sound higher then 14500hz, imagine 18000.
Mario
-
The diaphrams are the ones made from the original Altec tooling from Great Plains Audio, so they are as close to original as you can get. The measuring was done a full pro Clio unit, manned by a very experienced professional-- so they were measured properly.
You comment to not be afraid of the graph... note that this is probably the smoothest Altec speaker you will ever encounter within its range.
As far as getting the original Valencia sound, no thanks. Danny's crossover was much superior.
-
Sorry for the word "afraid."..
Thanks for the answer.
If your satisfy, it's all good for me.
But 15 DB of loss starting at 7.5k is not standard for an Altec HF driver.
But your choice to get :
"smoothest Altec speaker you will ever encounter within its range"
give the reason for your choice to get this curve and this range.
Thanks
Mario
-
Mario, it's about +- 3 db until around 12000 hz. Before that it stays really flat through the heart of the music- about +- 1.5 dB. Perhaps the driver isn't delivering what it's supposed to, but it's not because of the voice coil.
As far as the "choice", the crossover is not causing the drop off above 10K Hz, but instead corrects issues at 1700 Hz and creates a smooth transition around 1200 Hz from woofer to tweeter. There were also several issues that were caused by ringing with the horn, that were smoothed considerably as we experimented with foam.
The key areas of improvement were solving issues of harshness with brass instrument that were really showing up in the low treble and upper midrange. Also, there was an overall increase in detail and clarity by creating an open baffle for the bass. But a crossover can't create a response where one doesn't exist. I'd love to see some graphs of 811 horns that you've worked with, especially those that had extended responses.
-
"it's about +- 3 db until around 12000 hz. Before that it stays really flat through the heart of the music- about +- 1.5 dB."
That's lot better then I can do, as I tried to keep my cross over as simple as I can... normally less then 7 components.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191747)
...This pictrure is a standard compression in an 811b horn, Mics -15dBFS 6 feets front 48" high, no cross over, just a plain driver.
Me I am more like that on an A7 (825/828 style) cabinet with a cross over described with the picture.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191748)
This pictrure another compression in an 511b horn, Mics -15dBFS 6 feets front 48" high, smooted a 1/6, cross over HIRAGA style ((7parts) cut at 500, measured in my men cave, valve amplified single end, just a plain A-7 500
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191749)
This pictrure is 806a compression in an 811b horn, Mics -15dBFS 6 feets front 48" high smooted a 1/48 , cross over HIRAGA style ((7parts) cut at 800, measured in my men cave, valve amplified single end, just a plain A-7 800 for me.
It's not Altec Hifi style box, but lot's of guy who listen music with single end amplifier like those for speed and vivacity of the music. Lot better for the first octave with with an amplified sub 18 inch crossed at 50/80 upon of the room ( Not in those measurement).
But my point was not about your final example of your Valencia, the one you described in last post.
it was about the loose of 15db from 7000hz(103db) to 18000hz(88db) without any recovery in the picture I put with my post.
It's not a kind of picture I'm familiar with on an HF Altec driver and was the reason I decided to say to other interested DIYer that's not an standard result.
The reason was not to critic the choice, but to encourage other to do their own research, they will appreciate what HF Altec driver will give to them for working with.
Lots of result could be done with a cross over on any Altec HF driver. Because rare are the speaker that can give you that amount of octave to work with... and the dynamic, and.. the speed... and ... etc... etc...
To add a point for comparaison I add a picture from a pair of Magneplanar 3.7i with a Pierre Lurne amplifier, just to show what an A7 is capable of with an valve amplifier single end of 8 watts in a man cave without any gadget.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191750)
But my measurement was with an altec that give 99-102 db of pressure an an Magneplanar that give 83-86 db of pressure.
Was an A7 as refine as the maggies...no. Was the maggies have nicer dynamics...no Wich one I prefer to listen music... both
But for lot's of pressure level musics, say average level at 95 DB+, Altec eat the Maggies
Hope it is enough measurement for today. LOL
Mario
-
Thanks for the graphs. Indeed it does look like there is an issue with my compression driver compared to your measurements. I have several voice coils, including a repaired original that I may try out- if I ever get around to it. If I do, I'll take measurements and post them. I would guess that the voice coil is the most likely suspect, although I think I'll call Bill at Great Plains Audio and ask if he has any ideas. He probably knows more about Altec speakers than anyone else in the U.S.
I appreciate your helpful reply.
Scott
-
Scott,
Hello,
I never see it, but if your broken original are 20275, in you 807 don't play to try to fix it.
Go to an experienced repairmen to fix it.
Aluminium diapragm have the reputation to go higher then other one.
But you will have a choice to do whatever is the best in your environment.
Go for the 802 with an 34852 if need more power or if you can't find what you want with you 807, but lot harder to tame the med bellow 4000, you needs lots of parts,
normally if you add...
more problems.
Sorry if I can't help you, as I have not real experience with 807 and his 34726 symbiotics diapragm o 34647 replacement in an 1600 to 1800 cut off
Me my work is confined to do it at a 500 or 800 cross over an little hair cut from 5/800 to 8000
But I am sure you can do it to go 14000 an may be to 18200 upon of your set up.
If great plain audio recommended this diapagm to you, it is the one you need.
But you could have lot's of other issues too, then the diapragm.
You really need to know that me, my 511 and 811 that I work with, are tamed with plumbing clay at the external, and for the 511 only, I add a autoglued mat behind the front wall, nothing inside in front of the driver,(no foam as per all A7/A5 cab. ) this way I got no ringing at all.
Altec are like musical instrument, you need to tune it to your tast. May be you can try both way to see if "improvement were solving issues of harshness with brass instrument" are still in control with one and the other, and then you'll know wich you prefer with or without the foam.
Valencia is an 95db speaker, so the Woofer is tamed to this level, so it give you lot's space to work with your HF driver.
But at one point, what you will get in leveling the HF, you will loose in speed and voicing of the lower. and then you need to finish with an Lpad fix or variable to keep your dynamics, your choice.
It's a compomise, not so easy to get, but very rewarding when you will get it.
You can read to end of world, but one thing is sure, when you will reach what you work for... you will know, your ear will tell you.
What Danny have to say about it? He have experience, I'll surely had a couple tricks to help you.
N.B: Even if it's not my first choice, you can keep what you got, as it look super to 10K, and add an Super HF JBL, easy to do after 10000hz, but again not my cup of tea, as this tweeter in top of the box... berk ... LOL
Ciao
Mario
-
sorry....
The "autoglued mat" ,
they call it : Dynamat
This I put it around the horn inside the wall, not a the back of the wall itself.
Buy it here at Solen Electronics.in sheet of 1 meter to 1 meter
-
Hello,
I have a set of Valencias with drivers that have broken leads. I've been giving some thought to your repair. It's August 2019, How are they holding up?
Did the modification effect the frequency response?
Thanks,
Jim J.
-
For these types of repairs on fine stranded voice coils I have used silver conductive epoxy with great success. No heat/soldering needed to risk causing more damage.
Did you glue the broken leads or replace the leads? I have a couple of 806-8s with three toal broken leads. I also have a small packet of silver conductiive epoxy I'm ging to use to patch them up with. I think repacement may be better since age has effected the tensile strength of the leads. If they break once there's a greater likelihood they'll break again. The metal is fatigued after 20-30 years of vibration. A well chosen replacement would last again as long.
-
I was able to CAREFULLY solder a thin wire to mine, although I replaced them anyway. I picked up a pair of new voice coils from Great Plains Audio. They have the original Altec equipment for their manufacture.
-
Hello Scott,
I have read your posts, they are very interesting. I have a chance to purchase a mint, one owner, pair of 846A Valencias but the crossover cut at 800Hz bothers me. I have a question for you, did you take the xovers to Danny for upgrades and, if so, how did you like them?
Cheers,
Horacio
-
Horacio,
I took the entire speaker to Danny. We quickly abandoned the original crossover and built a new one. He also determined that the porting of the Valencia A was providing so little load on the woofer, that we went with an open baffle instead. This increases clarity in the midrange. The low bass of the Valencia was already a weak point (surprisingly for such a large woofer), so it plays best with a sub.
At this point I am quite happy with them. They are especially good at vocals.
Regards,
Scott
-
Scott,
Any more details about the new crossover? Also interesting was your comment about running open baffle.
Idler