AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: joegator81 on 12 Sep 2014, 12:17 am
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Like many of you I purchased many of my favorite beatles records when they were re-released in stereo not to long ago. Now that the mono versions have bee re released and the raving reviews have come pouring in its hard not to buy all over again. The only real thing stopping is that I don't have a mono cart. How much am I going to miss not having a mono setup? Or are these things so good that I should just get them and worry about it later?
Sorry if this question is ridiculous but my experience with mono is slim to none.
Thanks in advance.
Btw, my setup is: Clearaudio Concept w/ MC, Phenomena II, Parasound Classic Pre, NAD C270 power amp, Salk Songtowers, and Epik Legend Sub..... if that info helps in any way.
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As Hendrix would say, hey Joe,
The next best thing to a mono cart is to combine channels. You can do this with a mono switch which I guess you don't have. You could strap the channels on your cart - physically connect the 2 plus and 2 minus pins. That's a PIA especially if you don't have a removable headshell.
Many people use 2 sets of Y adaptors. Use a set with 2 females and connect both channels from your table into 1 channel of your phono stage. Then come out that channel of your phono with another 2 female Y - plug the male into the phono and the females into your interconnects to the line stage.
neo
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I know practically nothing about mono recordings. The box set arrived today. I've played a few albums on my Technics SL-1200 w/ Ortofon 2M Blue. Both channels produce equal, glorious, luscious sound. I've not idea if a mono cart would improve things but this is absolutely the best I've heard The Beatles.
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Mono recordings only have lateral groove modulation. It's better if the cart doesn't have output with vertical motion. You'll get good results with a stereo cart with an excellent pressing, but it's often much better with a mono cart.
After thinking about it, maybe strapping the channels isn't such a great idea. People have been doing it for a long time, but it might mess with the cart/phono stage impedance relationship, effectively cutting the input impedance in half. They say you shouldn't use one Y adaptor on your phono cables to make mono, then use another to change one channel into two going into your phono stage. I don't see any difference between that and strapping.
Instead, use only one channel on your phono pre and split it into two at the output. If you have a receiver or integrated amp and you're using a built-in phono, you can only do this if you have separate record and listen/monitor selectors. Put the source or record switch on phono. Use a Y adaptor on the tape output with signal to turn it into 2-ch. Then monitor/listen to any high level input you go into from there. Without this kind of tape facility you can try listening to one channel only.
There are mono carts under $100, and some for thousands. They come in the same varieties as stereo carts, high, med, low output and with different compliances. Traditional mono tips are .7 mil spherical, but modern mono pressings can benefit from advanced tip profiles.
neo
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You guys are kidding right?
I can't just play these new vinyl Beatles pressings and enjoy them with my turntable as is?
If I have to dink around with buying a mono cart or Y connectors and such I will be pi&%ed.
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You guys are kidding right?
I can't just play these new vinyl Beatles pressings and enjoy them with my turntable as is?
If I have to dink around with buying a mono cart or Y connectors and such I will be pi&%ed.
No kidding,
Mono cart on mono record sounds better than stereo cart on mono record. :cuss: C'est la vie.
One channel on your stereo pick up is pure noise on mono records... :duh: The fine point on your elliptical stereo pickup is dragging the bottom of the mono groove and that is pure noise. Granted it should be smooth but you are still coming in contact with a surface and your cantilever is probably moving up an down some. True mono carts are vertically stiff and thus add no noise.
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You guys are kidding right?
I can't just play these new vinyl Beatles pressings and enjoy them with my turntable as is?
If I have to dink around with buying a mono cart or Y connectors and such I will be pi&%ed.
You can play a modern pressing and a high quality one will sound good:
I know practically nothing about mono recordings. The box set arrived today. I've played a few albums on my Technics SL-1200 w/ Ortofon 2M Blue. Both channels produce equal, glorious, luscious sound. I've not idea if a mono cart would improve things but this is absolutely the best I've heard The Beatles.
It should sound even better with a mono set-up. With "regular" pressings you'll hear greater improvement. Yes, you can play them "as is".
neo
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No kidding,
Mono cart on mono record sounds better than stereo cart on mono record. :cuss: C'est la vie.
One channel on your stereo pick up is pure noise on mono records... :duh: The fine point on your elliptical stereo pickup is dragging the bottom of the mono groove and that is pure noise. Granted it should be smooth but you are still coming in contact with a surface and your cantilever is probably moving up an down some. True mono carts are vertically stiff and thus add no noise.
Now the way I understood it is, if you have a mono button on your pre-amp (Thank you Frank) you won't hear that noise. Can you verify this Neo?
Doc
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Not exactly. A mono button will blend the channels, but won't eliminate any non-lateral components from the signal of a stereo cartridge.
A mono record groove is only modulated horizontally. A stereo groove is cut at 45° on each side, so there is a vertical component. Any non-lateral component from a stereo cart playing a mono record shouldn't be there and isn't there with a mono cart.
This isn't localized in one channel only, but it can add noise or even phase anomalies. It won't be prevalent on an excellent pressing, but should still be better with a mono cart. Someone with a lot of mono records will tell you they virtually all sound better with a good mono cart.
neo
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Not exactly. A mono button will blend the channels, but won't eliminate any non-lateral components from the signal of a stereo cartridge.
A mono record groove is only modulated horizontally. A stereo groove is cut at 45° on each side, so there is a vertical component. Any non-lateral component from a stereo cart playing a mono record shouldn't be there and isn't there with a mono cart.
This isn't localized in one channel only, but it can add noise or even phase anomalies. It won't be prevalent on an excellent pressing, but should still be better with a mono cart. Someone with a lot of mono records will tell you they virtually all sound better with a good mono cart.
neo
This is what I was hoping to hear. I was kicking myself for getting rid of my Technics 1700 mkII when these mono reissues were revealed, thought it would be a perfect candidate for an ortofon mono cart, but from what I can infer from your comments that setup may not necessarily be as good as the Clearaudio Concept w/ Concept MC??? I think what I will do is buy a mono copy that I already have on stereo, sgt peppers perhaps, and see how much of an improvement I can hear.
Thanks to all for your input
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It seems that the situation is even better than I realized. They no longer have mono cutters so all the new mono records are pressed in stereo with both channels the same. That means you'll get virtually no benefit from a mono cartridge. Engage your mono switch (or not) and enjoy.
If you have a mono cart you will benefit from it on older mono records. Many mono carts like the DL-102 are designed to play either a mono or stereo pressing. Some people prefer mono and use the cart for everything.
neo
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This is an interesting tidbit. Where did you learn this neobop? Any links you can provide?
I've been considering the new Mono Beatles box set (I don't own any of their albums) but this whole mono cartridge thing had my head spinning. At the end of the day I need to just do what joegator81 mentioned, and buy a stereo version of an album and a mono version and "see" what I think. Especially since I'm gonna be listening mostly on headphones and apparently mono can be good or terrible on headphones. Only one way I'll know for sure :)
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If you have a mono cart you will benefit from it on older mono records. Many mono carts like the DL-102 are designed to play either a mono or stereo pressing. Some people prefer mono and use the cart for everything.
neo
basicly you mix the output of a stereo catridge to get mono...
Many mono carts like the DL-102 are designed to play either a mono or stereo pressing. Some people prefer mono and use the cart for everything.
neo
ridiculars... :lol:
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It seems that the situation is even better than I realized. They no longer have mono cutters so all the new mono records are pressed in stereo with both channels the same. That means you'll get virtually no benefit from a mono cartridge. Engage your mono switch (or not) and enjoy.
If that’s the case, why did Ortofon come out with the 2M Mono cartridge as a tribute to the Beatles Mono Albums?
Here are two links to the Analog Planet, Michael Fremer review and Neil Gader from The Absolute Sound.
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/ortofons-2m-mono-special-edition-first-listen%E2%80%94world-exclusive
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ortofon-develops-tribute-mono-cartridge/
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This is an interesting tidbit. Where did you learn this neobop? Any links you can provide?
I've been considering the new Mono Beatles box set (I don't own any of their albums) but this whole mono cartridge thing had my head spinning. At the end of the day I need to just do what joegator81 mentioned, and buy a stereo version of an album and a mono version and "see" what I think. Especially since I'm gonna be listening mostly on headphones and apparently mono can be good or terrible on headphones. Only one way I'll know for sure :)
Everyone who has this new Beatles box says the SQ is considerably better whether they have a stereo or mono cart. I bought Revolver, Sgt Pepper when they first came out ('67/'68 methinks) and they were in stereo. I would have guessed that the stereo affects, especially on Sgt Pepper, would make it more desirable, but it seems these were mixed down in the studio in mono and they lost something in transition to stereo. Mono doesn't sound one dimensional as some might think. You don't get those side to side stereo tricks the same way, but the presentation isn't flat/lifeless.
It makes sense that "they" no longer have mono cutter heads. After the '90s, we're lucky they still have cutter heads at all. Here's a thread about that:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=1092081
The 2M mono is a stereo cart with the channels strapped someway other than the conventional parallel connection. It's said to cancel vertical output, but this is third hand info filtered down from Mikey, so who knows? Maybe so. Here is a thread about the Beatles box and Mikey chimes in near the end with an apples and oranges comparison. If you're a Beatles fan, I think it's safe to say these records are an improvement any way you play them.
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=1091740
neo
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http://www.ortofon.us/product_detail?pid=309&category_id=13
P
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FWIW, I've been buying a lot of early 60s mono stuff lately (Kingston Trio, Gene Pitney, Ventures, etc.) and they sound AMAZING on my rig! I no longer turn up my nose at mono originals.
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http://www.ortofon.us/product_detail?pid=309&category_id=13
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This brings up the same questions. It states flat out that it's a cart with the 2 channels strapped with no additional information about that. How is this different than strapping any MM cart - connecting the channels together?
It seems like it's a slightly modified generator from the regular 2M, but is it? If the 2 channels are connected together in parallel, the DC resistance should be half of a regular 2M. 2M mono DC = 700 ohms. 2M Blue DC = 1300 ohms.
http://ortofon.com/hifi/products/cartridges/2m-series/2m-blue
2M mono load capacitance = 300 - 600 pF Termination 47K - stereo, 23.5K - mono.
Blue is = 150 - 300pF
Inductance is 300mH Blue is 700 and Black is 630mH. Output is 3.5mV, compared to 5.5mV.
You might have to experiment with load a bit, but it seems to me you could get the same results by connecting the output pins together. Plus to plus and minus to minus.
neo
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It seems that the situation is even better than I realized. They no longer have mono cutters so all the new mono records are pressed in stereo with both channels the same. That means you'll get virtually no benefit from a mono cartridge. Engage your mono switch (or not) and enjoy.
If you have a mono cart you will benefit from it on older mono records. Many mono carts like the DL-102 are designed to play either a mono or stereo pressing. Some people prefer mono and use the cart for everything.
neo
This is good news as i'm still listening with my Clearaudio Concept MC cart.
I went ahead and purchased SGT Peppers and HELP! I don't have another version of HELP to compare it to but i did a quick comparison of the SGTP to the stereo reissue and a previous stereo version and the Mono reissue is definitely better. The low end really kicks and has great definition. I need to listen and compare more closely though to really pick out the differences.
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This is good news as i'm still listening with my Clearaudio Concept MC cart.
I went ahead and purchased SGT Peppers and HELP! I don't have another version of HELP to compare it to but i did a quick comparison of the SGTP to the stereo reissue and a previous stereo version and the Mono reissue is definitely better. The low end really kicks and has great definition. I need to listen and compare more closely though to really pick out the differences.
Help is a good example of some of the better monos compared to stereos. AFAIK, the "Ticket to Ride" and "Help" cuts on the stereo vs the mono aren't even the same recordings. The mono is different. John Lennon once said that "Ticket to Ride" was the first heavy metal song. He was only half serious, but I didn't understand what he meant till I heard the mono version (even on CD); it has real attack and "thwack" to it. When you listen to it you know what JL was talking about.
I will be in the minority here though, and say that on some songs on Revolver, Pepper and MMT, I like the stereo mix better. I think the "effects" come across better in stereo.
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Hi all.
Mono vs Stereo ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npvsGRonfcM
I find this interesting, according to the video and author
look like over all the stereo version is a little better ???
Guy 13
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I disagree. I like the mono much better than the stereo.
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I disagree. I like the mono much better than the stereo.
DSA Dynamic Sounds Assoc. played Beatles mono at 2014 RMAF, most or all tube gear, $2k mono cart, TAD CRM1 speakers. Probably the best reproduced sound I ever heard. Reminds me of direct mic feed Tower of Power at Sausalito Record Plant. I can not list enough superlatives, absolutely mind boggling performance, dynamics like I never heard before, etc, etc...also indeed would not say flat like you might suspect is mono. It was more like raising the dead with George and John in the room playing and singing for us. Honestly never heard anything so realistic ever, and I've heard IRS III set up well in dedicated listening room with DAT source. It's worth it to fly as far as needed to hear this demo again, or one like it. I was shocked at the performance level, and believe me, was not expecting it to be that good.
David Sckolnick of DSA said this latest (released Sept 2014) The Beatles In Mono was cut with a stereo head, believe it or not a mono cutting head performs better, and they plan future release cut with a mono head, "mono on mono.".
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My friend bought one of the new Beatles Mono records and we gave it a quick listen on his stereo rig. I thought it sounded great. Maybe it would be better with a mono cart, but the stereo cart sounded fantastic.
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Mono should be as advertised mono. The sellers should specify on the cover that it was cut with a stereo. I was going to make the plunge now after hearing what James knows I'm waiting for he true mono to appear. Yes I use a mono cart on one TT and a stereo on another. Huge results.
charles
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[
...I'm waiting for he true mono to appear.
I think you'll be waiting for a long time.
Edit: never mind - I didn't see there was a planned release on a mono cutting device.
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I've been out of the LP loop for too long. :)
A (true) mono cartridge has the motor structure orientated so vertical stylus movement will not generate any voltage??
These Beatles pressings are cut completely symmetrically so that (other than warp) no vertical movement of the stylus would happen?
Dave.
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Patience is a virtue. Maybe it is time to inquire with the makers to find out the deal. I wonder how many other mono reissues are cut with a stereo cutter.
charles
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interesting article in Sound and Vision as a side bar to their story about the mono Beatles albums, which is also interesting but not as definitive as Mikey Fremer's reviews of the records. But the sidebar goes into the difference between real mono and mono (bridged) and a mono switch on the pre-amp.
It doesn't answer all the questions, but it seems the best way to hear the new Beatles albums is with an actual mono cartridge (which I don't have) but I will say that being a life long Beatles fan, these are by far the best that I have ever heard them--stereo cartridge and all
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/get-back-mono-drive-my-cartridge
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More of the same in Sound and Vision.
Here's a good buy on a mono HOMC - 1.1mV, VTF 2g
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002ERE2Q/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687542&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000WM4S3G&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1HMMEBG0P1FGE4SCC341
I think this is a leftover. Not sure if it's true mono.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/OROMD25M.html
Here's the specs for the AT:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATMONO3LP.html
The DL102 is a popular choice with 2 long pins so you can double up the connectors.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/DENONDL102.html
neo
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Was Cpt. Kirk listening to mono on his tube rig in the latest Star Trek movie?
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David Skolnick (sp?) of DSA told me himself that Beatles mono was cut with a stereo head, and believe it or not they plan future release cut with a mono head, which shall be even higher performance.
They're planning to recut the Beatles' Mono vinyl releases again, this time with a mono cutting head? :?
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They're planning to recut the Beatles' Mono vinyl releases again, this time with a mono cutting head? :?
David Skolnick of DSA (Dynamic Sounds Associates) told me yes.
That was the best reproduced sound demo I ever heard.
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Beatles original mono recordings, just awesome.
Can't believe some people haven't heard them. :duh:
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I was amazed at many things, one of the most amazing things picturing the Beatles, their clothes, expressions, body movements, especially George playing his arch top hollow body (Gretsch IIRC). John never sounded so alive and real. Really, it was like the two of them were raised from the grave. Strange, weird, ethereal...I was totally moved by that demo and just walked in not knowing what to expect.
I kept crossing paths with Skolnick in the elevators during setup and later too. He's very nice, a great guy, friendly. I noticed he had a cheshire cat grin, and was very confident.
Found out why when I heard the demo.
You're crazy if you miss this mono demo if you have opportunity to hear it.
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David Skolnick (sp?) of DSA told me himself that Beatles mono was cut with a stereo head, and believe it or not they plan future release cut with a mono head, which shall be even higher performance.
Future release? Do you know what that means exactly? Future release of other titles originally mixed in mono or re-release of these titles?
For those contemplating a mono cartridge, most are rather low compliance heavy trackers and will work best on med/heavy arms. Look at the recommended VTF range to get an idea. Also, most have spherical stylus, around .7mil for modern grooves and larger for vintage pressings.
Ortofon has some expensive mono carts (MC) tipped with diamonds with advanced shapes. I haven't used these, but I assume you'll get more detail.
Grado makes a couple of high compliance mono carts that seem just like their regular Prestige line.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/GRADMCPLUS.html
http://www.lpgear.com/product/GRADMEPLUS.html
If you're looking for the "best" -
http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-Cadenza-Mono-Phono-Cartridge
http://www.miyajima-lab.com/e-mono.html
http://www.time-step.com/distribution/Miyajima.html?gclid=CJOf--fX0cECFSgV7AodGT8AaQ
Also EMT and Ortofon SPU.
neo
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David Skolnick of DSA (Dynamic Sounds Associates) told me yes.
That was the best reproduced sound demo I ever heard.
I wouldn't have thought current sales would prompt them to get the tapes back out and recut just to use a mono cutter head. While a cool idea, I'm not sure that recutting with a mono head would make a radical difference from the current reissues, which used a stereo cutter head and a mono tape machine.
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I wouldn't have thought current sales would prompt them to get the tapes back out and recut just to use a mono cutter head. While a cool idea, I'm not sure that recutting with a mono head would make a radical difference from the current reissues, which used a stereo cutter head and a mono tape machine.
That my friend is the $64,000 question. Wonder what Acousic Sounds is doing with their mono reissues.
charles
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The Beatles original Mono cuts where different. I can't put it into words.
(But, it really is different than listening to a song in mono, that was earlier created in stereo. if you know what I mean. And they aren't like listening to your audio equipment in mono, by simply changing the stereo/mono button to the mono position. If you understand that... :scratch:)
Just a completely different sound, they may have been recorded mono, in the studio, but they have a very different uniqueness to them. I wouldn't call them simply "mono recordings" and blow them off as substandard quality. Because they are much better than that.
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http://www.stereophile.com/content/rmaf-2014-meet-beatles
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I wouldn't have thought current sales would prompt them to get the tapes back out and recut just to use a mono cutter head. While a cool idea, I'm not sure that recutting with a mono head would make a radical difference from the current reissues, which used a stereo cutter head and a mono tape machine.
Well, I waited this long, so I guess I'll wait till the promised mono cutting head mono appears (Real Men wait for mono cutting head version...friends don't let friends buy mono produced with stereo cutting head....my friend Bradley at the show came up with something like, "Mono is what stereo wishes it could be").
I auditioned a dozen times at shows all kinds of TAD systems displayed by designer Andrew Jones (one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet), all IIRC with his Pacific Microsonics Professional (literal, not figurative) ADC/DAC, played back with the same hard drive and same ADC with which the program was recorded. Heard his 5.0 HR multi channel, etc, etc.....the very very best ever, well, till this latest mono rig, was stereo only, Reference 1s, oodles of Pass Labs Class A, Boz Scaggs, My Funny Valentine, 9' grand piano, solo, recorded in his San Francisco home, right before show closing time at CES....made me cry. That's the only time I really fell in love with TAD. Other times, OK, so-so, good, but nothing like that. ]
I'm still thinking this mono rig on TAD CRM-1s beat that.
As good as the demo sounded, I wondered if it could possibly be better with only one speaker. When I was a teenager my friend's dad built Altec or similar mono speaker, driven by tubes of course. I have limited experience playing mono as it existed a loooong time ago, prior to Blumlein's "binaural" (later called stereo) invention. I asked David from my seat while he changed records, if he had listened on one speaker. He said yes, when one channel was down or just to try it. I further investigated, suggesting it might be improved with one speaker centered in the room. He said even though the single speaker was off center, he would listen centered IFO it. I suppose that's about as good.
First choice would still seem to be moving one large speaker, off center line and spaced several feet from a room corner. Second choice would be your favorite stereo pair, but with higher weight given to speakers with the absolutely best center fill image (I have something in mind).
I think, if there is/was a weakness in that demo, it's that all these years of stereo listening tend to make you expect to hear L/R image placement differences if/when the stage is so wide...and believe me that stage was absolutely wide...pretty large room. The strange thing is I thought I did hear L/R image placement. Weird.
The main features were dynamic presence and extreme, absolutely extreme density of sound and images, with incredible transparency of detail and nuance. It was like a great, ultra transparent horn system with none of the awful qualities causing listeners to strongly dislike horns.
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double post, sorry
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Sckolnik's Beatles mono demo is largely responsible for me resurrecting my vinyl rig today, which was dormant for too long. Had to shorten four steel vertical supports for the rack, rewire custom input switch box, etc.
Purchased Beatles mono late last year and hearing it at home for the first time. I would estimate these mono LPs played on a decent quality TT/arm/catridge outperforms the best digital front end, even cost no object like the dCS stack circa $100k.
I suspect these mono LPs demonstrate better than any stereo Beatles source exactly why the Beatles hold their unique place in modern music history. It's interesting and remarkable how the LPs demonstrate better than stereo how great was their musicianship, especially Paul on bass.
Michael Fremer did an apparently interesting A-B test, Beatles mono vs. stereo LPs at a recent show. IIRC participants unanimously agreed the mono blew away the stereo demo.
I can't more highly recommend this collection.
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Sckolnik's Beatles mono demo is largely responsible for me resurrecting my vinyl rig today, which was dormant for too long. Had to shorten four steel vertical supports for the rack, rewire custom input switch box, etc.
Purchased Beatles mono late last year and hearing it at home for the first time. I would estimate these mono LPs played on a decent quality TT/arm/catridge outperforms the best digital front end, even cost no object like the dCS stack circa $100k.
I suspect these mono LPs demonstrate better than any stereo Beatles source exactly why the Beatles hold their unique place in modern music history. It's interesting and remarkable how the LPs demonstrate better than stereo how great was their musicianship, especially Paul on bass.
Michael Fremer did an apparently interesting A-B test, Beatles mono vs. stereo LPs at a recent show. IIRC participants unanimously agreed the mono blew away the stereo demo.
I can't more highly recommend this collection.
Funny you should mention it . It's the first thing I noticed about the set. McCartney is a much better bass player than I had remembered.
Doc
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Musicians (and/or ex-musicians like myself) notice these things probably more than non-musicians. I programmed synthesizer for Pat Buchanan's last album, and worked with Tower of Power among others, used to play a lot of guitar and electric bass, including one I de-fretted in my teens.
One of my childhood idols was bassist Joe Osbourne, who got his unique tone playing fretless Fender Jazz bass with with a pick on nylon wound strings he never changed (the strings were lifeless and lacked harmonics, so the pick was necessary for transient snap...but the tone is killer, especially slides without frets).
Still melt hearing Joe's bass work on The Carpenters (vinyl only) and of course the penultimate Bridge Over Troubled Water. The electric bassist on Paul Simon's live PBS special/National Congress tribute reminds me of Joe's sound quality. IIRC he also plays fretless, but "plucking" newer strings.
My brother in law is an awesome mouth harp player. He's one of those snobs who says anyone using a pick can't play bass. Maybe tell that to Rick Danko of The Band, well, except Rick's gone of course. Rick wasn't the world's best bassist, but he played just fine with a pick.
Opening the shipping carton and getting to the vinyl itself is a long process. I enjoyed the process more than opening anything new I ever bought. The packaging is better than anything I ever bought new including Levinson No. 23 power amps, etc.
Treat yourself and buy it. Still in stock at Acoustic Sounds: http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/98036/The_Beatles-The_Beatles_In_Mono-Vinyl_Box_Sets (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/98036/The_Beatles-The_Beatles_In_Mono-Vinyl_Box_Sets)
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Hello James, just curious, not sure if you mentioned this already, but are you using a mono cartridge when playing back The Beatles LP's or are you using a stereo cartridge? :-)
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Using a stereo "Strain Gauge" cartridge, Panasonic EPC-451C > stock Panasonic SH-405 demodulator. Also have two other SG demodulators, a stock JVC and modified Panasonic 405.
I suspect over time the cartridge, demodulator, and hard soldered switch box will burn in, increasing performance. IIRC one of the songs I heard at Sckolnik's demo was And Your Bird Can Sing. Looking forward to hearing that tomorrow.
Sckolnik's system outperformed this. I feel certain the main difference is his mono cartridge, which was likely in the $2500 range, possibly higher; I should ask him just for general knowledge.
I talked with Peter Ledermann today of Soundsmith, AFAIK the only person still making new SG cartridges and demodulators. Peter said the general performance of SG is so high that the stereo cartridge would sound good, but he confirmed my fear that it suffers the same as any stereo cartridge playing mono, and he recommended a mono cartridge, which I intend to buy. (Peter said he has "10k mono records.")
The problem is on what to play the mono cartridge? One option is to setup my second TT (Denon DP-62L servo control arm and servo control direct drive), but I need another rack and at some point it's too much gear.
Current arm on member "Berndt's" modified Empire 509 (70 lb 1.5" solid alloy plinth) is Origin Live/Rega RB300 with integrated head shell, which sounds stellar. I consider changing to arm with removable head shell, but my budget only allowing the Jelco SD-750 or possibly SME M2-9. (If 12" fits, I'd get 12" version of either arm). The SME 312S is ideal but it costs $4k. I started thinking of stuff laying around I could sell to purchase the 312S, but man, that's real money, even used well over $2k. I bet it's gorgeous and presume performance is superb.
Of course, the mono cartridge requires a regular RIAA phono preamp. Accidentally connecting a SG Demodulator to a regular MM/MC cartridge sends DC to the cartridge, causing it to immediately explode. Yikes, that's one mistake you don't want to make.
My CDP is pretty good. The vinyl just kills it every which way it can be measured. My analogy is it's like driving a high performance car around with bias ply tires (CDP) then switching to state of the art radials (phono).
While playing mono LP > stereo cartridge, does performance improve using one channel from the cartridge shorted to both preamp channels?
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I have a slightly modified Denon DP 72 it's a great TT! I have a straight arm and the S-curve arm so I COULD one day put a mono cartridge on one and have my stereo cart (Zu DL 103) on the other and switch them in and out very easily. Will have to invest in more mono records to make purchasing a mono cart worth it for me though. But it's seeming like the consensus is that a mono cart with take the Beatles records (and other mono records) to another level....I honestly never even heard of a demodulator until you mentioned it.... Great. Another thing to look into haha!
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While playing mono LP > stereo cartridge, does performance improve using one channel from the cartridge shorted to both preamp channels?
Hi,
No, that's not how it works. Either is hooking the channels in parallel or using a preamp mono switch. That will give you equal sound in each channel, but not true mono. A true mono cart will have no, or almost no output for vertical movements. This is accomplished by either having no vertical compliance or cancelling vertical output by the orientation of the generator parts. An AT 33MONO separation spec is 30dB of vertical rejection, not separation.
Horizontal/vertical output ratio: 30dB (1kHz)
A physicist posted on another site, that hooking the channels in series rather than parallel, will give true mono. I don't really understand how a series connection will cancel vertical cantilever movement output, and I have yet to try it. The physical hook-up is a PIA.
neo
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Wow, very interesting, thanks!
I'm sure Sckolnik suggested, and Art Dudley echoed this in his recent Sphile article, mono cartridge performance improves using only one tone arm output channel and mono switch on the preamp.
Apparently mono cartridge can have either one or two pair of output terminals. In the latter case, I don't know what is the potential difference between the two pairs of terminals, and what is the potential source of improved performance using only one pair. Probably once the former is known, the latter is self-evident.
My guess is there is potential for phase difference between the output pairs, and using only one pair eliminates that potential difference.
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Wow, very interesting, thanks!
I'm sure Sckolnik suggested, and Art Dudley echoed this in his recent Sphile article, mono cartridge performance improves using only one tone arm output channel and mono switch on the preamp.
Apparently mono cartridge can have either one or two pair of output terminals. In the latter case, I don't know what is the potential difference between the two pairs of terminals, and what is the potential source of improved performance using only one pair. Probably once the former is known, the latter is self-evident.
My guess is there is potential for phase difference between the output pairs, and using only one pair eliminates that potential difference.
You're yanking my chain?
All (that I know of) modern mono carts have two sets of outputs hooked up internally in parallel, except the DL102 which has two long pins to accommodate two cart clips each. The potential difference between channels isn't a whole lot. What they're implying is that preamp channel differences and/or cable differences are the culprits and sending the same signal to the amplifier is better than sending the same signal to the amplifier?
Just kidding. The real implication is, they're using a lousy preamp or phono stage? With a mono cart you could still use the mono switch with both channels hooked up and send the same signal to the amp. "True" high end preamps don't have a mono switch.
There you have it, case closed. :thumb:
If you want to know more about mono records/carts:
http://ortofon.com/hifi/products/mono-series
neo
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Well, the drama thickens. I have no so-called "dog in this fight." This would not be the first or last time if my memory failed. Later I'll dig up Dudley's comment, only 2-3 issues ago. Dudley has a large collection of cartridges, more than half of which are mono.
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I'm not making an argument here, just amused. It could be one of those quirky type things? Basically what they're saying (if you remember correctly) is that it sounds better taking a single channel input and duplicating that, then using two channel inputs where there could be minute differences, and blending or mixing that together.
There very well could be system specific aspects to this, and it also brings into question exactly how the hook up is accomplished and whether an external phono stage is used. Anyone with a mono cartridge can try this stuff on their own. If you take one channel and split it into two before the phono input there are impedance matching aspects that would be significant.
Even if you don't have a mono switch, a mono cart makes a big difference especially with older records. Eliminating the vertical component from the signal also eliminates a lot of noise. With a mono switch and stereo cart you're just blending that noise. That Ortofon link gives the history of the microgroove which was invented in 1948 and universally adopted by the late '50s. Pre microgroove records might be better with a 1mil spherical stylus. A 78 cart usually has a 3mil, and carts for modern pressings range from .7mil to micro types.
neo
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For mono cartridge, and stereo cartridge playing mono record, no mono switch: is L ch surface noise different and separate from R ch surface noise? If yes, mono switch of course mixes L/R ch surface noise to be identical and integrates the noise with the music between the speakers (differences in the room and L/R ear sensitivity might still introduce minor noise difference between channels).
What is generally more tolerable, the former (noise separate) or the latter (noise mixed)? The former seems easier to separate noise from the music centered between the speakers, but it also has "two" noise components while the former has only one noise component.
If you take one channel and split it into two before the phono input there are impedance matching aspects that would be significant.
That is a great point. It applies whenever using a splitter or Y connector, such as splitting one preamp channel output to two power amp inputs. When biamping one must confirm the source has enough current to properly drive both power amps, whose load impedance is summed/lower than either amp alone. It could "work" (play music) but lack dynamics and bass punch.
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For mono cartridge, and stereo cartridge playing mono record, no mono switch: is L ch surface noise different and separate from R ch surface noise? If yes, mono switch of course mixes L/R ch surface noise to be identical and integrates the noise with the music between the speakers (differences in the room and L/R ear sensitivity might still introduce minor noise difference between channels).
What is generally more tolerable, the former (noise separate) or the latter (noise mixed)? The former seems easier to separate noise from the music centered between the speakers, but it also has "two" noise components while the former has only one noise component.
That is a great point. It applies whenever using a splitter or Y connector, such as splitting one preamp channel output to two power amp inputs. When biamping one must confirm the source has enough current to properly drive both power amps, whose load impedance is summed/lower than either amp alone. It could "work" (play music) but lack dynamics and bass punch.
For a mono cart the output (including noise) is virtually identical for each channel. There's only one channel output and the other is a duplicate. That's why I said not a whole lot of difference.
The game changes for a stereo cart and there is a difference between channels, including noise. A stereo cart designed for two channels will have such things as crosstalk (azimuth + design limitations), phase errors between channels and tracking/tracing issues between channels. Things like anti-skate and alignment error are not a factor (with regard to output) with mono carts because there's nothing to balance with one channel only.
The elimination of the vertical component also dramatically reduces noise on older records, and even on newer ones will improve focus, imaging, and coherence.
With regard to splitting and impedance - split or combine the signal coming off a record player and you are likely to affect amplitude response. Loading is critical. There are some relatively inexpensive mono carts out there that are well received. I doubt if it's worth messing with a stereo cart to try to get mono out of it. People like the AT MONO 3 HOMC for under $100 on Amazon and the DL102 is about $100 more? The Ortofon Cadenza mono might be nice for modern pressings.
neo