[ka7niq]

Hello guys,
My friend, who also owns RM 40's, and me, are having a debate about wire size and types for the RM 40's.
I  am using 14 gauge wire in a single run w/jumper for my no bi wire switch spiral RM 40's.
I do not believe in trick wires, nor do I believe that going to 12 gauge or thicker has any basis in scientific fact.
I also do not believe that I will hear any difference.

My run of wire is less then 15 feet.
My good friend thinks that larger diameter wire will allow more current to "push" the RM 40 woofers harder, LOL
My amp can already push them to their maximum excursion with the 14 gauge wire, and I have seen, and heard them, exceed their maximum excursion on Bass Cd's.


I know Marty from Bound for Sound likes "welding cable" but the RM 40 is not THAT current hungry a speaker, or is it ?
It only goes down to 4 ohms, and has decent efficiency.

I have seen Apogees at 2 ohms and lower successfully used with 14 gauge cables.
I have been to shows and seen Dan D'agostino from Krell running Apogees with 14 gauge, and his amps are arguably among the most powerful, high current ones ever made.

I would like to hear some discussion on wire size and types with the RM 40's, and what have YOU found to work ?

[zybar]

Hello guys,
My friend, who also owns RM 40's, and me, are having a debate about wire size and types for the RM 40's.
I  am using 14 gauge wire in a single run w/jumper for my no bi wire switch spiral RM 40's.
I do not believe in trick wires, nor do I believe that going to 12 gauge or thicker has any basis in scientific fact.
I also do not believe that I will hear any difference.

Why bother asking a question like this when you don't think wire can make any difference?

If five people posted that 12 gauge super wire made a difference, what would you do with that info?

Seems like you should just spend your time making sure your pots, putty, and placement are as good as they can be.

George

[john1970]

I have a pair of VMPS RM40s running off a NAD C37s integrated amp.  I use 10 gauge Belden cable from Bluejeanscable.com and am perfectly happy with the sound.  Each cable is 10' in length.  Although the run is short I figured the thicker the cable the better and the Belden cable is relatively inexpensive at $0.57 / foot.

Cheers,

John

[ka7niq]

Why bother asking a question like this when you don't think wire can make any difference?

If five people posted that 12 gauge super wire made a difference, what would you do with that info?

Seems like you should just spend your time making sure your pots, putty, and placement are as good as they can be.

George

Hello George,
If someone could provide proof, like show me the scientific and aural benefits of using heavy wire, and convince me that I am "robbing" my RM 40's of "needed" current, then maybe.

Or, if someone said they tried 14 gauge, and 12 or 10 gauge sounded way better, I would take it into consideration.

My friend and I both have RM 40's in huge rooms.
I watched my friend try amp after amp, in search of an amp that would "give it bass".
He welded the poor woofer with his Audire Parlando, and I assured him that RM 40 gave all it had to give trying to pressurize that huge room, and had no more to give.
He finally accepted that he would need a sub.

But, not before trying amp after amp in search of that magic one that would "push" the woofer hard enough.

I use subs with my RM 40's too because no speaker, except my 250 lb Von Schweikerts with 15 inch woofers, has ever had near enough bass in here.

Actually, my RM 40's have great deep bass in this room, but not quite enough mid bass kick for me, so I gladly use subs.

I was kinda wondering George, if the 14 gauge wire I am using may be causing frequency response problems with RM 40 ?

I heard it said that using relatively small gauge wire with low impedance speakers can sometimes cause response irregularities ?

It will be interesting to hear what others are experiencing ?

[Marbles]

Actually, my RM 40's have great deep bass in this room, but not quite enough mid bass kick for me, so I gladly use subs.

That's pretty standard with those speakers.

I was kinda wondering George, if the 14 gauge wire I am using may be causing frequency response problems with RM 40 ?

I heard it said that using relatively small gauge wire with low impedance speakers can sometimes cause response irregularities ?

It will be interesting to hear what others are experiencing ?  ...

If your experience was like my experience, than the frequency response irregularities was not caused by the speaker wire.

That's not to say I don't think you could benifit from some nicer speaker wire, in fact I would bet you would be able to hear a positive benifit from going to Greg Straley Reality cables, and he has a money back policy.

[meilankev]

Chris,

As you probably can guess, I've done no head-to-head testing with speaker cable in my system.  And as such, I am in no position to guide you at any with your questions.  Worse yet, I'm not even sure the specific thickness of the cables I bought.

But I am one of those that falls in the "long XLR interconnect / short speaker cable" camp, as each of my two monoblocks sit on the floor right next to the speaker they drive.

Sorry for the lack of information...
Kevin

[woodsyi]

I actively biamp and use 10 guage on woofers and to taste on ribbons.  I have no issue with midbass but then I also run 2 largers as well............

[fredgarvin]

Despite Officer Zybars' opinion I think an audio topic is always valid...  Kaniq, didn't you say you were going to try the anti-cables a while back? And you didn't say you were having response anomalies with your RM40's did you?

[Marbles]

you didn't say you were having response anomalies with your RM40's did you?

I was kinda wondering George, if the 14 gauge wire I am using may be causing frequency response problems with RM 40 ?   ...

Sure sounds like that's what he said...

[Jack D.]

For what it's worth.

In the electrical world: A single 14 gauge copper wire requires a 15 amp
                                 overcurrent device.

                                 12 gauge, 20 amps.

                                 10 gauge, 30 amps.

[zybar]

Despite Officer Zybars' opinion I think an audio topic is always valid...  Kaniq, didn't you say you were going to try the anti-cables a while back? And you didn't say you were having response anomalies with your RM40's did you?

I didn't say it wasn't valid...

I was simply commenting on how it read to me like Kaniq had already made up his mind and asking for info didn't seem worthwhile under that circumstance.

If he is willing to try other cables and take input from people, why did he say the following?

I do not believe in trick wires, nor do I believe that going to 12 gauge or thicker has any basis in scientific fact.
I also do not believe that I will hear any difference.

As for the bass and frequency response issues, I am not touching that with a ten foot pole.

Officer Zybar signing off...

[ka7niq]

you didn't say you were having response anomalies with your RM40's did you?

I was kinda wondering George, if the 14 gauge wire I am using may be causing frequency response problems with RM 40 ?   ...

Sure sounds like that's what he said...

Thanks for your reply Marbles.
I guess I am one of the few weirdo's that has to run his ribbon levels way down from the stock levels ?
The factory settings are not good sounding, in my room.
Now, I bought the speakers used, and can not be sure the right amount of putty is still there, or if someone added to it.

But, I just can;t seem to really get them like I want them to sound.
W/o turning my ribbons way down, like to 10 O'clock, the sound is thin and midrange.
But, when I go way down on the level, I also hear the woofers coloration ?

I just cant seem to get the "right" blend ?

My friend, who also has RM 40's says it's my wire/amps// etc, etc.
Yet the stuff I have sounded splendid on many other speakers ?

I know  I must be doing something wrong, because it can't be the speakers!

Now, let me just say this, I am accustomed to a British sound, I like toe tapping warmth and body, with a big mid bass kick.

I am "fighting" myself from going into the RM 40's, and raising the mid woofers crossover point, to get the warmth I crave.

I remember Marty's review in Bound for Sound.
He comments that it was apparent that Brian liked a "breathy" more "immediate" sound then he did.
I would have to "side" with Marty on this, give me warm and rich anyday.

But, I may simply have a mistuned passive radiator ?
I wonder if there is any way to weigh the putty, to see what is the right amount ?
My "problem" may be as simple as putting the correct amount of putty on the passive ?
But, since these were used speakers, there is no way to tell if extra putty was added, or subtracted, from what was initially furnished ?

I have pretty much a pea sized amount left from each speaker, almost the same as my friend, but who is to say extra putty was not added by the previous owner, causing my speakers to be overdamped ?

Marbles, I know you own the RM/X's, and do not know if you owned the RM 40's before them, but you probably moved up the VMPS food chain.

In your experience, is their an inherent "thinness' in the lower midrange, even with a properly tuned passive ?

Maybe I need to step up to some RM/X's, or down to some RM30's, because I like a warmer, thicker, lower midrange.

Now, I am not talking about making everyone sound like Darth Vader, LOL

But,  a Hole in the response in the 200 - 400 hz region makes the speakers hyper critical of everything.

This is what I am hearing Marbles, and that is why I asked the question if my "small" 14 gauge wire might be causing the response irregularities i am hearing ?

I love almost everything about my RM 40's.
I just love their imaging, detail, low distortion, and sheer soundfield size.
And, they play LOUD too!

But I must be able to warm them up, and get rid of the lower midrange hole I am getting. in my room.

That is why I initially asked about wire!

[Brian Cheney]

Set mid control at 12 o'clock, treble at 12:30, and remove putty one fingernail full at a time to achieve correct balance.  Works every time.

[Brian Cheney]

Also, vitrify your PR's by taking them out and painting both sides with yellow Elmer's carpenter's glue.  You can also see then if some one has added mass, or subtracted any.

[Marbles]

I did own the Rm40's, a RM30C, and 2 pair of 626's, but I never owned Rm/x's.

One thing Brian did to help with the percieved thin midbass is come out with a new midbass driver and XO update.

You might want to try that upgrade.

[Brian Cheney]

Marbles,

Did you ever try to tune the PR's on your RM 40's?  I understand you got them used.

[Marbles]

Marbles,

Did you ever try to tune the PR's on your RM 40's?  I understand you got them used.

Yes, I took off all old putty and put on exactley 8" of new IIRC.

I also vitrified them.

I was pretty happy with the deep bass response, and was even happy with the midbass response..I was even happier after the midbass upgrade.

I did use subs with them for the most part though.

[ka7niq]

Set mid control at 12 o'clock, treble at 12:30, and remove putty one fingernail full at a time to achieve correct balance.  Works every time.

Ok Brian, I will do it.
One speaker at a time, with subs off.
BTW, in your opinion, is 14 guage wire really hurting me ?
It's pretty new, and oxygen free copper .....

[Brian Cheney]

Marbles:

The RM 40 would be considerably overdamped if you left 8" of putty on the PR.  Most owners end up removing about half the mass during the tuning process.

[ka7niq]

I did own the Rm40's, a RM30C, and 2 pair of 626's, but I never owned Rm/x's.

One thing Brian did to help with the percieved thin midbass is come out with a new midbass driver and XO update.

You might want to try that upgrade.

Thank you for your responses Marbles.
I just checked out your pictures!
I own that EXACT same green leather sofa.
I LOVE the Vinyl girl, oh I dont know just why, she simply caught my eye, LOL

I  plan to do the upgrade,  but I am waiting on the waveguides to do it all at once.

I think I will simply re tune.