Tone arm and cartridge matching

GentleBender · « **on:** 22 Dec 2019, 10:39 pm »

I am a vinyl amateur at best, but have enjoyed the experience immensely. I recently upgraded my cartridge to a Hana ML to give a good MC cartridge a shot. I am wondering if it is a good match with the Audioquest PT-5 tone arm? I am still using an excellent VPI HW-19 upgraded with the TNT platter, but feel like I am missing something.

The Hana ML specs are:
ML
Stylus: Nude Microline tip
Cantilever: Aluminum
Magnet: Alnico
Magnetic circuitry: Pure Iron/Cryo treatment
Coil wire: High Purity Copper
Cartridge Housing: POM (Delrin)/Brass
Output level: 0.4mv/1KHz
Output balance: <1dB/1KHz
Vertical Tracking force: 2gr
Trackability: 70μ/2gr
Compliance: 10 x 10-6 cm/dyne
Channel separation: 30dB/1KHz
Frequency response: 12-45,000Hz
Impedance: 8Ω/1KHz
Suggested lord Impedance: > 100Ω
Cartridge weight: 9.5g
Body Color: Black

rotarius · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Dec 2019, 11:48 pm »

Phone stage? What are you unhappy about? The AQ tonearm is quite nice. Perhaps you don't like the cart, the microline tip needs to be set up perfectly, not very forgiving.

GentleBender · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Dec 2019, 01:46 am »

I can admit that the setup may be lacking. I am using an Odyssey Audio Suspiro for a phono stage and find that I need to turn my Odyssey Audio Cyclops almost full throttle to get good dynamics from it. It seems to be missing bass mostly compared to my cheap Dac and digital setup. Was hoping to surpass the digital gear with the cartridge, but it may require more work. I am willing to work on it, but need some recommendations.

bentconvert · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Dec 2019, 01:58 am »

Are your phono stage settings correct for the new cartridge. Sounds like you need more gain.

GentleBender · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 Dec 2019, 02:01 am »

I have the gain set to the highest it offers 60db and set to 100ohm. I will try to post the setup instructions when I get a chance, but it may not be until tomorrow. Just making sure the compliance of the cartridge was compatible with the tone arm. I am waiting on some Spanakopita to finish cooking for dinner and will probably not have a chance to post again until tomorrow. The spanakopita takes a fraction of the time to get prepared as a new cartridge, but man it seems like forever when you’re hungry.

rotarius · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Dec 2019, 02:51 am »

Your cart compliance is not an issue. You just don't like the tonality of the cart/phone combo. FYI, I have never had a full sounding AT microline cartridge, not sure about the Hana. You can change the balance somewhat by changing the mat thickness if your tonearm is not height adjustable.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Dec 2019, 02:58 am »

In the 70s I read in a local magazine the cartridge resonance freq have to synergy with the arm resonance freq unfortunately I remember these freq mentioned were 2 or 4Hz to the cartridge and 8-10Hz for the arm no more than it.

twitch54 · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Dec 2019, 03:13 pm »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 23 Dec 2019, 02:58 am

In the 70s I read in a local magazine the cartridge resonance freq have to synergy with the arm resonance freq unfortunately I remember these freq mentioned were 2 or 4Hz to the cartridge and 8-10Hz for the arm no more than it.

yes, to answer what you actually asked one should verify cartridge / tonearm compliance first then you can worry about phono stages and all the rest. here's a link to get you started .............

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php

Dieterle Tool · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Dec 2019, 04:37 pm »

Since cartridge compliance is not always measured the same, be sure your compliance values are rated at 10 Hz. The chart calculator twitch attached will only work that way. ex: A Denon 103's compliance is rated 5 x 10^6 at 100 Hz. You must multiply that value by 1.8 to get the value needed for the calculator, 5 times 1.8 = 9 x 10^6. This compliance value, plus the cartridge's entire weight (including hardware) and the effective mass of your tonearm will get you what you're looking for, which is a resonant frequency around 10-12 Hz. You will notice their is a pretty wide range to work with.

Thie calculator below works a little differently but essentially you can work around different values to get the same results. The third calculator (down) is nice if wanting to know the effective mass needed for tonearm...
Plug in your cartridge compliance, "desired" resonant frequency (11 Hz) and it will spit out effective mass of tonearm. I think Denon 103 guys like this bc it is such a low compliance cartridge, you can figure out how much mass to add to a tonearm.

http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html

Dieter

GentleBender · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Dec 2019, 12:21 am »

The main issue I am having now is finding the tone arm effective mass of the Audioquest arms. The best I can get is guesses and only know for sure it is a medium mass arm.

Seems like it should work well since it seems moderate mass tonearms are between 11-25 grams. I do have an AVA Q Phono with a 66db gain on the way and will just go through the setup again. No mistracking, just a lack of sparkle and dynamics. I wish I had someone in the area that could help show me the way to vinyl nirvana.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Dec 2019, 12:38 am »

This cartridge needs burn in?

twitch54 · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Dec 2019, 01:04 am »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 24 Dec 2019, 12:38 am

This cartridge needs burn in?

OK, I'll bite, what's cartridge 'burn in' ? cantilever suspension break-in perhaps ? or................'audio fool' nonsense ??

rotarius · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Dec 2019, 01:15 am »

Again, arm mass is compatible with the cart, I have used this arm before. The cart needs some use for suspension to be optimal. It will sound different after break in. I am guessing you will try a bunch of stuff but will end up selling the cart.

GentleBender · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 Dec 2019, 01:23 am »

I hope not to sell the cartridge and admit I haven’t given it much time to break-in, but I wanted to ask some helpful folks with more experience. It has great reviews and looked to be something that punched above it’s price. I also picked up a Denon 103R to try an affordable MC, but will try it if I can’t get the Hana to my liking. How long is a typical break-in on a new cartridge?

rotarius · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Dec 2019, 01:43 am »

Try the demon, you'll probably like it better. Break in for about 50 hours but it won't dramatically change tonal balance of the Hana. The ML cut produces a lot of detail and finesse but you lose some vinyl warmth IME.

Photon46 · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 Dec 2019, 04:03 pm »

Quote from: twitch54 on 24 Dec 2019, 01:04 am

OK, I'll bite, what's cartridge 'burn in' ? cantilever suspension break-in perhaps ? or................'audio fool' nonsense ??

The phrase "burn-in" does seem to imply something other than what actually happens. Phono cartridges have elastomeric suspension components that need to be "exercised" a few hours to relax into their intended performance parameters . Some cartridge manufacturers even specify the exact temperature ranges at which their cartridges will give peak performance.

PDR · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 Dec 2019, 05:37 pm »

A bit more info if your into it.......

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/238027-diy-linear-tonearm-207.html#post4756176

solypsa · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 Jan 2020, 06:15 pm »

Early in this thread setup was mentioned. I'd like to draw attention back to the VTA (or SRA if you prefer).

For more 'advanced styli profiles' this adjustment is critical to getting a balanced sound. Sure you need to sweat the details of alignment and azimuth and tenths of grams vtf to get a turntable all dialed in but VTA is the one that takes you from sounding broken to sounding right ime.

ricmon · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Jan 2020, 05:05 pm »

I would suggest that see if you can borrow another phone stage and see if that's the problem.

Ric

Bob2 · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Jan 2020, 07:07 pm »

VTA? Not so much.https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html