Cherry Amplifier (R) ---- What We're About

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AmpDesigner333

Cherry Amplifier (R) ---- What We're About
« on: 12 Aug 2008, 03:26 am »
I left the post below intact.  It was posted about 10 years ago.  Since then, we have held on to our values and continued to deliver!

Here's an updated take on where we stand as a company NOW.  This is for my fellow audio enthusiasts....

Digital Amp Co was founded in 1996. Amplifier IP Development was our initial business model. In 2006, we decided to build finished amplifier products, and in 2008, we started the Cherry Amplifier (R) brand. It has been quite a ride since then! We built high quality Class-D amplifiers (and related products) designed for sound quality as opposed to bench specs. However, our bench specs were still pretty admirable. Our philosophy entails developing products for measurable performance first, sometimes achieving outrageously good performance, such as amplifiers nearing 130dB SNR and 0.000x% distortion. THEN, we tweak the circuitry for sonic implications. We have become quite good at this, and through experience (30 years designing Class-D here), we were able to figure out which circuit changes yield certain effects on the sound. We wanted to deliver transparency, but without the typical side effect of an analytical sound. We don't use one-size-fits-all pre-fab modules like other manufacturers. In fact, we are one of the few companies left that actually designs their own amplifier circuits, from the smallest component up. The rest of the pack simply throws a pre-fab module (with it's inherent markup) in a fancy box. We also don't use gobs of negative feedback in our designs. This gives us excellent transient handling without HF noise and ringing. Remember the screechy sound of high power 1980s Class-AB amplifiers? Well, they also used huge amounts of negative feedback, but at least in those amps, the bandwidth was available to allow simple compensation networks in the feedback loop. Our designs run more than 4 times faster than most Class-D amps on the market, and this gives us the bandwidth necessary to avoid the pitfalls of other Class-D amps. Plus, we have developed our own patented and proprietary modulation technology, providing excellent control of even the most powerful output stages. Many Class-D amps on the market use the huge feedback to artificially extend bandwidth, and the result is a strained sound where the listener can't quite put their finger on what's bothering them.

We believe in science and engineering. We stand firmly against audio snake oil and audio foolery. We measure our success with test equipment AND the ears of many experienced listeners. One without the other is simply inadequate as far as we're concerned. We act as engineers, not as marketers.

We also sell direct, eliminating the huge margins associated with dealer sales. This has made it an uphill battle to get exposure since other amplifier makers spend more than half their budget on marketing, passing the expense to their customers. We rely mostly on word of mouth to attain new customers, and due to the quality of our products and services, this has worked for us. LACK of advertising is another way we are able to produce hardware with super high quality components backed by large R&D efforts. This also hurts our ability to get professional reviews where the goal of the publication is to secure an advertising deal or simply promote their existing advertiser's products. Our customers are very happy. We understand better than most manufactures that our customers are the reason we exist, and we treat them with the respect they deserve. We customize hardware for individual needs. We strive to build a relationship with our customers while other manufactures look at their customers as a number on a spreadsheet. The result? We have created some of the best audio products in the world.

Class-D was invented with the purpose of high power efficiency, but our amps run a little on the "hot" side at idle, but efficiency at maximum power is more than 90%. What we have developed is like the Class-A of Class-D, and we believe that our amps can beat the sonic performance of Class-A.

We are currently running a Kickstarter project. This is our 5th one. Our last 4 were all successfully funded. Our customers are loyal as well, and know they will get a great return on their investment by participating in our campaigns. The purpose of the current project is to introduce the MEGAschino, a high power, high sonic performance amplifier. It's the culmination of 30+ years developing high performance amplifiers.

This is straight from the heart. We believe in what we do, and we're especially conscious of how we affect our customer's lives. Music is a source of happiness for our customers, and we want to maximize their enjoyment. So, if you're the kind of audio fan that wants the BEST, give us a look, or better yet, a listen. You'll be glad you did. Thanks for reading about Cherry Amplifiers and Digital Amplifier Company.

Tommy O
Founder
Digital Amp Co
CherryAmp.com
Music Should be Sweet

-------------------------------------

I'm the founder of Digital Amplifier Company (1996).  On our web site, we explain that we don't go to trade shows or pay for standard print or web advertising.  We sell direct to save our customers the typical dealer margin (can sometimes double your price).  Do you have any thoughts on this?

This post is to get feedback about our products.  If you have auditioned or purchased either of our current products, please give us a shout.  The DAC4800A is a 1000W amp and the Cherry is a 1200W amp.  They are both 2-channel units and have very respectable specs (<0.009% distortion, near 120dB SNR).  Some have said that our amps are the best they have ever heard regardless of price.  Reviews are posted on our site and on Amazon.com (we sell there too).

Please let us know if you have heard one of our amps or if you have visited our web site (www.DigitalAmp.com).  I'd like to get some feedback ASAP, especially concerning comparisons with other high end amps.  We plan to introduce some new stuff soon as well.  I'm offering my expertise regarding digital (Class-D) amps since I have been designing them since the mid 1980s.  If you have questions about these designs, let me know, and I'll try and answer them.  Thanks very much.
« Last Edit: 25 Mar 2018, 06:42 pm by AmpDesigner333 »

THE_ANSWERS

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 61
Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #1 on: 13 Aug 2008, 07:23 pm »
I heard the 4800A on Quads 988.     Very Awesome Amp!
that is compared to a few tube amps.........       the dac amp was quieter, much much stronger, and smaller, no heat

also, I heard it compared to Adcom highest power units on some   m a s s i v e home-brew speakers a buddy of mine has.  these speakers had 4 subs Per Side and 8 mid-woofs [seas?] plus ribbon tweeters!!!! unreal!!! the dac amp totally pounded. sweet. he moved away and I was so stupid not to buy his system. he did not want to move it! just low on cash then......



too much to ask how or why this is so good??  maybe in general the priceis up there with the high end brands but nobody heard of d.a.c.  that's a shame.

good luck. maybe you should sell through dealers, huh?

:D

hmen

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #2 on: 13 Aug 2008, 09:39 pm »
I just checked out the website and there are no professional reviews but I found this question in the FAQ section

Why does the DAC4800A sound so good?

That's what I call clever marketing.
 
Also, don't you just love it when someone announces a new product and all of a sudden another person appears on the same thread, making their first post, to tell us how awesome that product is?   

DMF

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 35
Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #3 on: 13 Aug 2008, 09:51 pm »
Due to limited production, we encourage you to purchase at least one of these amazing amps TODAY!  Limit three units per customer.

These are priced at $6000.00 each.

I better get my order in now  :wink:

AmpDesigner333

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #4 on: 14 Aug 2008, 02:44 am »
I spent the better part of my life developing amplifier technology and God Forbid I try to get the word out about my products!  I guess only trust fund kids are allowed to do stuff like that since they can afford elaborate marketing programs.

Remember, marketing adds nothing to the product but cost!  What would you rather pay for when you buy an amp; a few harmless blog entries, or three trade shows and 10 magazine ads?

A lot of people are mean spirited toward "creative types", and usually they are the people who have never created anything.

Let me tell you why there are no "professional" reviews (yet)...  Try getting one when you only sell direct and don't pay for advertising!  Industry magazines and web sites CHOOSE what they want to review, and just guess what companies get attention.  We're not playing the "game", so we don't get the exposure.  We even had one very popular online reviewer tell us he would do a nice review if we give him free samples that he can sell after doing the review.  When we said we would want the product back after the review he told us that he'll block our emails and didn't want to deal with our "nonsense".  We have also heard stuff like "once there are a few published reviews out there, I'll do one".  I bet if I had $100K/yr worth of ads in these places, there would be no hesitation.  Remember this the next time you read a "professional" review.  I'm not saying they are all biased, by the way.

The first large circulation magazine that reviews one of our products will be proving something as far as I'm concerned --- proving they have the guts that others don't.

...Well, all this hasn't stopped a great group of people we are proud to call our customers from taking the chance on a no-name brand, and guess what?  They ALL LOVE IT!  They also love the fact that their money isn't going toward funds for trade shows and advertising.  Their money is buying hardware, and lots of it.  We are very proud of this.  Thank you for reading this.

kavu

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #5 on: 14 Aug 2008, 03:36 am »

...Well, all this hasn't stopped a great group of people we are proud to call our customers from taking the chance on a no-name brand, and guess what?  They ALL LOVE IT!  They also love the fact that their money isn't going toward funds for trade shows and advertising.  Their money is buying hardware, and lots of it.  We are very proud of this.  Thank you for reading this.


Cool....are there any that have posted more than once on these boards?

AmpDesigner333

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #6 on: 14 Aug 2008, 03:49 am »
kavu: Thanks for your post.
Not sure how many of our customers have been on this board, but we're working on it. We plan to ask our subscriber base.

Here's the link to sign up in case you're interested:
http://bit.ly/1G8bsxZ
« Last Edit: 13 Mar 2018, 03:36 am by AmpDesigner333 »

denjo

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #7 on: 14 Aug 2008, 05:01 am »
AmpDesigner 333

I like your philosophy and hope you will succeed in your creative venture! And when you do, don't forget that customer service is one of the pillars to a successful audio business! Krell started as a backyard project to beat the Big Boys and succeeded to become one of the most successful audio brands but they forgot about their customers once they tasted the dizzy heights of success! I had an experience with their customer service and speak from the perspective of my experience.

I know how hard it is to convince the consumer that you have a great product in hand, beyond the marketing hyperbole!

Best Regards
Dennis


AmpDesigner333

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #8 on: 14 Aug 2008, 05:50 am »
Dennis,

Thanks for your post and kind thoughts.  This means a lot!

By the way, I have a KST-100 I'm looking to sell (seriously)...  As you can imagine I have had MANY amps for comparison purposes.

Our customers are so great and have written reviews for us, told their friends, and even had "come over and hear my system" gatherings in their house!  Without their support, we'd be NOTHING!

I know a guy in NJ that worked for a large semiconductor company and he had an idea to make really compact DC/DC converters for industrial applications.  He worked in his basement for years until he finally got funded by VC money, back when that was a common option.  He now sells millions of chips, but the VC guys pretty much own his company!  This is what we're trying to avoid.  There are lots of people with cash out there and no ideas or no ability to execute on ideas even if they had them.  The treat start up companies as prey.  At one point, we were trying to sell our patented technology to chip companies, but all they wanted to do was pick our brains and see what they can do to turn our work into mass market crap.  It was a blessing in disguise when a large money deal fell through, otherwise, there would be no "Digital Amplifier Company" today.

Do you have an audio company or a company of some other type?  Sounds like you know a little about business...

Many thanks again!

Best Regards,
AmpDesigner333 / www.DigitalAmp.com

jhm731

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #9 on: 14 Aug 2008, 08:02 am »
Please post a picture of the inside of your product, so we can see that it's more than just another repackaged Ice amp.

Based on what I see on your website, if I wanted a high power Class D amp, I'd pay the extra $1200. to get a Spectron MIII Signature MK.2. 8)


cab

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #10 on: 14 Aug 2008, 11:53 am »
On your web site you mention that your amps use pre, rather than post, filter feedback which you claim reduces distortion. Can you explain how pre-filter feedback reduces distortion more than post-filter?  Thanks.

THE_ANSWERS

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 61
Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #11 on: 14 Aug 2008, 03:30 pm »
to hmen

   I knew the post went up ahead of time       s o   w h a t ?
man, you are nasty  give a guy a break dude
my friend with the custom speakers is friends with the d.a.c. guy and I gladly provide a review cause i like stuff thats unique /uncommon.  someday I'll buy one too  everybody else can have their same old krell or bryston   b o r i n g

AmpDesigner333

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #12 on: 14 Aug 2008, 04:19 pm »
Why feedback around the filter is bad news...

Well, let me start by saying that the filter's reactance destroys phase margin so the feedback then needs to go through more stages to compensate.  The compensation causes delay, and the loop becomes sloppy.  Looking at it in the time domain, you never recover from delay.

The difference in THD+N can be quite large, especially when driving a speaker (not just a load resistor as is done for most testing).  There's no magic in control theory.  I have seen (and tried) modulation methods that actually use the filter to control the modulation, and they suffer from an even worse problem --- the speaker reactance and output current can swing the modulation frequency into the audio band during peaks.  There are ways to protect against this effect or minimize it, but that just adds more circuitry.  I prefer keeping simple things simple and just doing them right from the start.  A properly designed output filter is invisible audio wise.

The bottom line is that I've tried both methods and even spent a few years on this issue!  Compensation networks can get complicated, and when you start piling filter on top of filter the effect on the sound can be quite noticeable.

I had to "fix" someone elses design once (a pro audio amp --- designed those for several years) that had something like 10 poles in the feedback network.  That's not what I call a good design.  I think the original designer (a consultant) was trying to make it so complicated that only he would understand it.  Well, we saw through the weeds and improved the design.

Amps with feedback around the filter just don't sound as accurate.  I'll explain later why most Class-D designs on the market aren't all that good, and feedback topology is on the list.  Thanks for the question, cab.

TomS

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #13 on: 14 Aug 2008, 04:35 pm »
Please post a picture of the inside of your product, so we can see that it's more than just another repackaged Ice amp.

Based on what I see on your website, if I wanted a high power Class D amp, I'd pay the extra $1200. to get a Spectron MIII Signature MK.2. 8)



Here ya go...

Yes, tough crowd here but $6k is a chunk of change.  From the looks of it, it's mostly for the IP inside  :wink:

With regard to your original question, some manufacturers have achieved valuable initial exposure with RMAF, since it caters directly to buyers, unlike CES trade only type shows.  Emerald Physics comes to mind, as without that show I'm not sure many would have paid attention to them.  Underwood caught their initial wave and then took it from there.  Just my .02 and best of luck to you.

Tom


tvyankee

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #14 on: 14 Aug 2008, 05:08 pm »
hello

not trying to get into it but why does this amp cost $6000.00.  just wondering.

jhm731

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #15 on: 14 Aug 2008, 05:24 pm »
Thanks for the picture. I assume that's the $3600. DAC4800A?

Here's a picture of the inside of my $2500. digital amp. It has five digital inputs, programable crossovers
filter and full remote control. No negative feedback. 90% efficiency.


TomS

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #16 on: 14 Aug 2008, 05:37 pm »
Yes, I think the one I posted for him is the 4800.  The Cherry apparently has a bigger transformer, and a heavier red faceplate, among other things.

mcullinan

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #17 on: 14 Aug 2008, 05:42 pm »
Interior of my Nuforce 9 SEv2 about 5K/Pair

Mike

andrewbee

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #18 on: 14 Aug 2008, 07:06 pm »
http://www.41hz.com/Forums/photo_gallery.asp?action=displayimage&photo=460&loc=/gallery/andrewbee/DSCF0219.jpg

link to my home made "digital amp". Truepath from 41hz.com

It only cost me ~ USD600.00 total including shipping and customs charges so you guys are slumming in my neighbourhood :lol:

Whats a digital amp anyway? 1 bit stuff?

AmpDesigner333

Re: Digital Amplifier Company DAC4800A and Cherry amps
« Reply #19 on: 14 Aug 2008, 07:45 pm »
A few quick notes, then back to a schematic I'm working on...

The amp jhm731 shows is open loop.  Two of my patents are on open loop (groundbreaking at the time, 1999), and my design for that (processing done originally in an FPGA) eventually became the property of ST Microsystems.  Open loop is just not capable of the kind of performance we are talking about with the DAC4800A and Cherry amps.  Open loop is OK for 100W and lower A/V Receiver type products, but not a 1000W+ high end amp.

Regarding NuForce, I heard it's actually a decent amp, but the specs aren't as good as DAC4800A or Cherry.  Nuforce's ref9-v2 (their top of the line unit?) puts out less than half the output power of DAC4800A, higher THD+N (0.03% versus our <0.009%), and much lower SNR (by more than 12 db!).  Plus, you have the same old thing about paying for trade shows and advertising.

Regarding price, although the list price for the DAC4800A is $3600 and the Cherry is $6000, we frequently discount them to our newsletter subscribers (nearly half price), and we also offer a demo unit here and there.  The price on Amazon for the DAC4800A refurb unit is $2799, and that's upgraded to new modules and fully tested!  Very clean.  Very nice.

Our amps are built with OUR OWN TECHNOLOGY, not some off-the-shelf chip set or module.  We build in the USA as well in case that matters to you.

More later...