The ultimate Squeezebox PS/Mod square off!! Coming to Houston, TX

95bcwh · « **Reply #20 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 05:26 am »

All,
It's time for me to conclude my comparison between Bolder's SB2 and RWA's SB3 (and more!). Below are the list of equipments:

speakers: Salk HT3
Amplifier: Bryston 4B-SST
Preamp/DAC: Tact 2.0S with Aberdeen PS and DAC

The two squeezebox I am comparing are:
- Bolder Modded SB2 with full mod, with Silver Slipstream Bybee Purifiers added to digital AND analog outs. Sonicap Gen 2 and Platinum bypass caps added to analog outs
- RWA fully mod SB3 (as described on RWA most current website)

Wayne also sent in two power supplies:
- The Ultimate PS Bolder Power Supply, built in Silver Par-Metal case with Jensen capacitors and new transformer and voltage regulator circuit with Silver internal wiring and 4) Bybee Purifiers
- Bolder Modded Elpac PS

Friends of mine also brought 3 CD players:
- Ayre CX-7
- Cary 303/300
- Rega Jupiter

And I am comparing the following setup:

#1 Bolder's Ultimate PS + Bolder modded SB2 analog out into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#2 Bolder's Ultimate PS + Bolder modded SB2 digital out into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#3 Bolder's Elpac PS + Bolder modded SB2 analog out into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#4 Bolder's Elpac PS + Bolder modded SB2 digital out into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#5 RWA modded SB3 analog out into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#6 RWA modded SB3 digital out into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#7 Ayre CX-7 analog out (Single Ended) into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#8 Ayre CX-7 digital out (AES/EBU) into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#9 Cary 303/300 analog out (Single Ended) into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#10 Cary 303/300 digital out (AES/EBU) into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#11 Rega Jupiter analog out (Single Ended) into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#12 Rega Jupiter digital out (S/PDIF) into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3

Whenever Tact 2.0S was used, I set it to "bypass" mode.

The analog interconnect used in all setups was Bolder's custom-designed IC made from single crystal, solid core, cryo-treated, Silver wire. It has a Silver shield, terminated with Gold Bullet Plugs.

The digital IC between Bolder's SB2/Rega Jupiter and Tact is Bolder designed digital cable with WBT NextGen connectors (RCA to RCA).

The digital IC between RWA modded SB3 and Tact is the same digital cable designed by Bolder but with BNC to RCA termination.

Nordost VALHALLA AES/EBU digital IC were used between Ayre/Cary and Tact 2.0S.

The power cords for the Ultimate PS and for the Bolder's SB2 are all provided by Waynes.

The power cord for the Bryston 4B-SST is Bolder designed with built in Bybee.

The power cord for Tact 2.0S are Bolder's Nitro.

Now, I must admit that Wayne sent me too many cables and I might be confused with exactly what they're made of, but at least I tried my best to use the same cables for all setups.

My reference cuts are:
- Eva Cassidy's "Fields of Gold" from the album "Live at Blues Alley"
- Arild Andersen's "Lines" from the album "The Triangle"
- Eric clapton's "Hey Hey" from the album "Unplugged"
- Johnny Hartman's "My one and only love" from the album "John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman"
- Donnell Jones's "Shorty (Got her eyes on me)" from the album "Where I wanna be"
- Toni Braxton's "Let it flow" from the album "Ultimate Toni Braxton"
- Rebecca Pidgeon's "Spanish Harlem" from the album "The Raven"

I do not have a "golden ear", the difference between each setup was quite subtle, I really had to listen to each for quite some time and switch between each of them using the same song over and over again. To my humble ears, here's the ranking (starting from the best):

1st place: Setup #1 Bolder SB2 with Ultimate PS analog out
2nd place: Setup #2 Bolder SB2 with Ultimate PS digital out
3rd place: Setup #4 Bolder SB2 with Elpac PS digital out
4th place: Setup #6 RWA SB3 digital out
5th place: Setup #4 Bolder SB2 with Elpac PS analog out
Joined 6th place: Setup #8 Ayre analog out, #10 Cary analog out
7th place: Cary 303/300 digital out
8th place: Ayre digital out
9th place: Setup #5 RWA SB3 analog out
10th place: Rega Jupiter digital out
11th place: Rega Juipter analog out

Because there're so much to write, but so little time to write it, I'm afraid I have to be brief. Basically, the difference between 1st place and 2nd place is pretty "noticeable". Setup#1 sounded so fluid and smooth, the midrange is fuller (abeit slightly forward), bass is dynamic, instruments hang in the air a little longer. Setup#2 is slightly more transparent, but leaner sound.

Setup#3 is actually pretty close to #2, maybe it's because they're using the same DAC in the Tact 2.0S. The difference is Setup#3 has slightly less air than Setup #2.

The 4th place is even closer to 3rd place, in many of the songs, I can hardly hear the difference, luckily with Toni Braxton's "Let it flow", I managed to notice that with Bolder's Elpac and SB2, the intruments and vocal seemed to blend better together, the mid/low was a little recessed when using RWA SB3.

Without the Ultimate PS, setup#5 (5th place) loses quite a bit of the magic of setup#1, it sound slightly analytical, less air, slightly recessed mid range compare to 4th place.

The difference between Cary analog out and Ayre analog out was very noticable, however, each has its own strengthes and weaknesses, Cary reaches down lower, has richer midrange, Ayre has more refine high. Certain songs sounded better with Cary, other sounded better with Ayre. Each has it's own signature (color) sound, the 5 setups that ranked above these two are more neutral sounding (which is my preference).

The difference between 7th place (Cary digital out) and 8th place (Ayre digital out) was less noticeable, I prefers Cary because it sounds smoother than Ayre.

The 9th place RWA SB3 analog out was very ok from mid to high although the high can be slightly edgy, the bass was slightly on the loose side compared to the 8 setups ranked above it.

Finally, regarding setup#11 and #12: Rega Jupiter had ok bass extension, lots of details but not so outstanding soundstaging, high frequency was a little etched and jagged

To tell you the truth, I could have lived with any of these 12 setups, because I'm talking about very subtle differences and it took me quite a while to train my ear to notice the differences, and the differences are song-dependent.

Over the past week, I have had 7 people coming in to listen to my setup, and they were all surprised by the sound from the squeezebox because in their mind, the squeezebox is a cheapo $300 gadget meant for general public. I had to explain to them that it takes some serious modification to bring the squeezebox up to the level of some of the best CD player/transport.

Darn, this is getting too long... I am not a professional reviewer so you have to forgive my bad grammar. I hope this reviews gives people more confidence in testing out the potential of squeezebox, especially those that're modified by Bolders and RWA. Kudos to both!!

barry
Houston, TX

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #21 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 01:49 pm »

Thanks Barry!!! Nice report.

Cheers
Charlie

mca · « **Reply #22 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 02:24 pm »

Very interesting findings and well done, Barry. That is a lot of equipment combinations to keep track of!

The cool thing I think is how well the 5th place setup did. Not a lot of cash for the modded Elpac PS and analog mods only. Sounds like it can go up against some pretty spendy CD players.

95bcwh · « **Reply #23 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 02:41 pm »

Quote from: mca on 29 Jul 2006, 02:24 pm

Very interesting findings and well done, Barry. That is a lot of equipment combinations to keep track of!

The cool thing I think is how well the 5th place setup did. Not a lot of cash for the modded Elpac PS and analog mods only. Sounds like it can go up against some pretty spendy CD players.

Oh yeah.. the Elpac PS was surprisingly good... I was surprised how close it is relative to the "Ultimate PS". I have no idea how much the SB2 analog mod is, I think with the inclusion of Bybee it may push the cost up a little..Wayne may be able to elaborate on the exact price of his mod.

zybar · « **Reply #24 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 02:49 pm »

Thanks for the write-up Barry.

As I hinted at when you originally posted, I am not surprised that the Bolder SB + Ultimate PS was the clear winner.

In my system, Wayne's combo has been the best digital front end by far and at a fraction of the price of some of the competing products (both single and multiple box setups as well as RWA modified SB2 + battery PS).

In your tests however, the fact that you didn't use room correction functionality of the TacT was a major oversight. While the TacT can be a very good preamp and dac once modified by Anthony (aka MauiMods), its main reason for existence is room correction. Not using this functionality when ultimately ranking what sounded best isn't painting a true picture. I am very confident that a properly setup TacT with room correction would sound better than the Wayne's best going directly into the amp. That is no knock against Wayne, but rather highlights the importance of room correction. Anybody who has heard the difference between corrected and non-corrected sound is always floored at what a noticeable difference there is.

Anyway, glad you had the opportunity to try all this great gear and share your thoughts with us.

George

95bcwh · « **Reply #25 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 02:55 pm »

George you're absolutely correct, I am just a little too inexperience with regards to room correction, I still have a lot of things to learn, e.g. I haven't even touched the Parametric EQ function yet. So for the time being, I just use the bypass. Theoretically, with the room correction and EQ, we can probably achieve the same kind of sound as Bolder's SB analog out, that will be my no.1 task in the coming weeks! Thanks for the encouragement.

Quote from: zybar on 29 Jul 2006, 02:49 pm

Thanks for the write-up Barry.

As I hinted at when you originally posted, I am not surprised that the Bolder SB + Ultimate PS was the clear winner.

In my system, Wayne's combo has been the best digital front end by far and at a fraction of the price of some of the competing products (both single and multiple box setups as well as RWA modified SB2 + battery PS).

In you tests however, the fact that you didn't use room correction functionality of the TacT was a mistake. While the TacT can be a very good preamp and dac once modified by Anthony (aka MauiMods), its main reason for existence is room correction. Not using this functionality when ultimately ranking what sounded best isn't painting a true picture. I am very confident that a properly setup TacT with room correction would sound better than the Wayne's best going directly into the amp. That is no knock against Wayne, but rather highlights the importance of room correction. Anybody who has heard the difference between corrected and non-corrected sound is always floored at what a noticeable difference there is.

Anyway, glad you had the opportunity to try all this great gear and share your thoughts with us.

George

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #26 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 03:47 pm »

This pretty much matches what I heard at this listening session http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=28274.0 I'm not sure if Wayne gave you a Solid Silver Core DC cable to audition for the SB. IMHO this really puts the Bolder over the top and puts more distance between 1st place and the others.

JohnnyLightOn · « **Reply #27 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 05:32 pm »

Thanks for the great report!

Loftprojection · « **Reply #28 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 07:25 pm »

That's a real nice report, much better then a lot of stuff we can read from the pros... I love this kind of test when components are evaluated against each other...

I have a RWA SB2 and an Arcam CD23T which is probably in the same league as the ones you've tested and I come to a similar conclusion as you. Differences are really subtle, on some songs one is nicer then the other while on others it's the opposite but on most you really need to concentrate to discern a difference.

Robert57 · « **Reply #29 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 07:56 pm »

Thanks for the excellent report, Barry. What a lot of work and hard listening you went through to compare all these set-ups!

Apart from sorting out the subtle differences between the various PS's and mods of the SBs, the big headline from this exercise IMHO is that the modded SB players outperformed the highly respected Ayre and Cary CD players. This should lay to rest any hesitation "traditional" disc transport folk have about the new SB and PC audio technology, albeit with some pricey mods. I think it is also very interesting that the analog outs from the modded SB's were at least as good as the digital outs, suggesting that one need not harness a costly external DAC with a SB or Olive to achieve superior sound. With all the agonizing over how best to minimize jitter by using i2S, USB, or special digital cables with an external DAC, the simpler, less costly approach of using the internal SB2 DAC ( a middling BurrBrown PCM 1748 chip) nicely avoids all these SPDIF and other cable loss issues. This seems to be one more case where the shortest signal path, and the less glamorous choice of better parts and clean, expert modding in the power supplies and analog stages, can outperform even very high-quality external DAC boxes, with a more musical, analog presentation. I would be curious, though, to hear what the TacT digital room correction would add to the mix, as George suggested.

I wonder why more manufacturers aren't following Slim Devices' lead in using the tried and true ethernet connection to move data to an external DAC with minimal jitter. Instead of USB or i2s, why not add a versatile ethernet jack in DAC's, now that computer sources are catching on? I keep reading on Slim Devices' web site that ethernet has remarkably low low jitter measurements (asynchronous?), and can extend 200 feet or more safely. USB is no panacea for transporting data to a DAC, and may be just as jitter-prone as SPDIF, especially with the current USB receiver chips (isosynchronous) in DAC's, unless one uses an Empirical i2S solution. Any thoughts on why ethernet is not being used as an input in the new DAC's?

Rob

yo2tup · « **Reply #30 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 10:28 pm »

any comments on the Aberdeen Component sb power supply?

95bcwh · « **Reply #31 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 10:31 pm »

Oops... I forgot to mention that Anthony has been too busy with Opus lately, he didn't have time to work on a PS for Squeezebox, hence he didn't manage to send me one.

tdangelo · « **Reply #32 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 10:42 pm »

Anthony (Aberdeen) just sent me an upgrade of his latest. I got it yesterday and compared it to his previous version. I really didn't think it would be too much better but immediately it sounded much better. I let it warm up for about 30 min. and brought the wife in. We played Stormy Monday (Eva Cassidy - Live at Blues Alley) about 6 times - switched the old and new each time. My wife is usually pretty quick on what sounds better and 95% of the time we agree - we never discuss it till we have a definite opinion.... Anthony's latest is MUCH better than his previous. PRAT is MUCH better, bass is much deeper and the proverbial veil had another layer pulled off - much more "live" sounding. It just keeps getting better

Anthony says he used higher spec caps and other tweaks (better power filtering etc..). Works for me and it was a free upgrade!!!!

95bcwh · « **Reply #33 on:** 29 Jul 2006, 10:57 pm »

Quote from: tdangelo on 29 Jul 2006, 10:42 pm

Anthony (Aberdeen) just sent me an upgrade of his latest. I got it yesterday and compared it to his previous version. I really didn't think it would be too much better but immediately it sounded much better. I let it warm up for about 30 min. and brought the wife in. We played Stormy Monday (Eva Cassidy - Live at Blues Alley) about 6 times - switched the old and new each time. My wife is usually pretty quick on what sounds better and 95% of the time we agree - we never discuss it till we have a definite opinion.... Anthony's latest is MUCH better than his previous. PRAT is MUCH better, bass is much deeper and the proverbial veil had another layer pulled of - much more "live" sounding. It just keeps getting better Anthony says he used higher spec caps and other tweaks (better power filtering etc..). Works for me and it was a free upgrade!!!!

Wow.. looks like Anthony continues to work his magic...I'm glad that you've become one of his many ecstatic customers. Looks like I got to get hold of his latest PS or else my evaluation won't be complete. Does he do modification on the SB unit itself?

Nick B · « **Reply #34 on:** 30 Jul 2006, 12:36 am »

Quote from: yo2tup on 29 Jul 2006, 10:28 pm

any comments on the Aberdeen Component sb power supply?

I have Anthony's PS. It sounds excellent and is a very good value for the money. Also have the anlog mod to the SB2, although I'm not sure he's doing those any more. I'm very pleased with this combination. Highly recommended.

yo2tup · « **Reply #35 on:** 30 Jul 2006, 02:28 am »

Quote from: tdangelo on 29 Jul 2006, 10:42 pm

Anthony (Aberdeen) just sent me an upgrade of his latest. I got it yesterday and compared it to his previous version. I really didn't think it would be too much better but immediately it sounded much better. I let it warm up for about 30 min. and brought the wife in. We played Stormy Monday (Eva Cassidy - Live at Blues Alley) about 6 times - switched the old and new each time. My wife is usually pretty quick on what sounds better and 95% of the time we agree - we never discuss it till we have a definite opinion.... Anthony's latest is MUCH better than his previous. PRAT is MUCH better, bass is much deeper and the proverbial veil had another layer pulled off - much more "live" sounding. It just keeps getting better Anthony says he used higher spec caps and other tweaks (better power filtering etc..). Works for me and it was a free upgrade!!!!

Very nice

Are the main caps the Sanyos or Jensens?

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #36 on:** 30 Jul 2006, 05:00 am »

Nice review there Barry....covered just about everything !!

I kind of wish I had gotten up to George's/zybar to hear his SB system in action before he moved to Mass......oh well...maybe another time.

Happy listening !!!

Chris

Double Ugly · « **Reply #37 on:** 30 Jul 2006, 05:26 am »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 30 Jul 2006, 05:00 am

I kind of wish I had gotten up to George's/zybar to hear his SB system in action before he moved to Mass......

Trust me, my friend...it's just as well you didn't hear it...that is, unless you want to spend more money.

Been there, done that.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #38 on:** 30 Jul 2006, 05:36 am »

Quote from: Double Ugly on 30 Jul 2006, 05:26 am

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 30 Jul 2006, 05:00 am
I kind of wish I had gotten up to George's/zybar to hear his SB system in action before he moved to Mass......
Trust me, my friend...it's just as well you didn't hear it...that is, unless you want to spend more money.

Been there, done that.

I wanted to hear it in action....by someone that knows what there doing with it. I do own a SB3. I "loaned" it out because I could not get it working....but it works perfect....so I'm told. I'll try again soon....when I have some time....SB3....part two.

Double Ugly · « **Reply #39 on:** 30 Jul 2006, 06:08 am »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 30 Jul 2006, 05:36 am

I wanted to hear it in action....by someone that knows what there doing with it. I do own a SB3. I "loaned" it out because I could not get it working....but it works perfect....so I'm told. I'll try again soon....when I have some time....SB3....part two.

Yeah, but unless I'm mistaken, you don't have the Bolder mods or the Ultimate PS. I've heard other Squeezeboxes and PSs built and/or modifed by others, and IMO none are in the same class. As evidenced by this thread and comments from George and others, I'm not alone in thinking so.

That's where the "spend more money" comment came from. IOW, I'm pretty sure you'd be on the phone to Wayne shortly after the A/B comparison.