SS to Tubes

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PRELUDE

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #40 on: 5 Aug 2011, 12:43 pm »
For me I vote for SS and I heard most of the tube gears up to the very expensive ones.
I would worth it well to be said that in a fine designed amp either tube or SS it wont be any major difference in sound quality minus a little forgiving in a bass region unless you are addicted like some people like to buy only one brand glass cleaner called WINDEX. :lol:
Now the disadvantage of tube is,it is like a baby and needs to be maintain forever to perform at its best.
So plug in the SS. :thumb:

SoundGame

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #41 on: 5 Aug 2011, 12:45 pm »
Just out of curiosity........  are some of you guys saying that you have actually obtained a greater musical pleasure from some tube gear but you chose to dismiss it because it had tubes in it and therefor could not be good enough?

In other words, are you saying that no matter how musically satisfying a piece of tube (or solid state) gear can be, the goal is to attain a theoretical replica of accuracy and not some emotionally satisfying experience based on your own personal preference?

Short answer - nope  :nono:

I don't believe any of the solid-state supporters on this thread have said that; however, my comments about some of the positive qualities I've heard with tube gear (which I think is a fair statement) may have led you to misintpret it as favouring the sound of tubes over solid state, which is not the case.

It's hard to not generalize when the question posed (SS to Tubes) is a generalization, in itself.  If we want to get into specific applications then we need to start naming models. 

Tubers, please educate me:

What tube amps (new not used) would provide the same/better drive capability, accurateness to source signal, linearity, transparency, flexibility, low-operating cost, reliability, build-quality, 20-year manufacturers transferable warranty and re-sale value as the 4B-SST2? :shake:

I ask for these because they are qualities that many solid-state owners seek in amplification.



Phil A

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #42 on: 5 Aug 2011, 01:34 pm »
The Bryston warranty is untouchable.  Solid state or tubes, the length of the warranty with many companies is one quarter of what Bryston offers.  When I was at the NY Home Entertainment expo about 9 years back, many of the manufacturers were using Manley NeoClassic monoblocks as amps.  It was the first time I heard a really high power tube amp that was just smooth.  When I bought my Bryston 6BSST lightly used about 8 years ago, I drove two hours to meet the seller at a shopping center and pick it.  He told me he had $11k tube monoblocks and that the 6BSST was really close.  I suspect the SST squared would even be smoother.  I think too many people get hung up on the technology.  Aren't we lucky to have so many good choices of great sounding gear and places like this to discuss it. 

I agree that the question posed is a generalization in itself.  The Bryston resale value due to the warranty is something that is pretty unique.  That being said, I've heard a local audio dealer complain about it (the 2006 warranty change was probably a slightly favorable development to a dealer).  He still does not like the warranty policy.  He believes that the warranty should only carry forward when it is sold through an authorized dealer (like some other brands offer).  He only carries limited Bryston products for that reason (he feels the used market makes it more favorable to use his floor space for other brands).  That is why I bought both my SST amps lightly used.  I could not audition them.

SoundGame

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #43 on: 5 Aug 2011, 01:43 pm »
...I suspect the SST squared would even be smoother. 

Yes, Phil, the SST2 is definitely smoother than the SST, most noticeable in the upper frequencies.  In terms of % improvement - that would be hard to say - but in terms of an improvement from an "audiophile" perspective - it's quite substantial.  Again - it's the 28B trickle down technology that has been applied to the SST2.

With the SST2 any prior comments on Bryston brightness/hardness etc (whether warranted or not) NO LONGER apply.  The SST2 is smooth, liquid and transparent.

Phil A

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #44 on: 5 Aug 2011, 02:17 pm »
The SST series was also a step up in terms of smoothness (and power) from the ST series.  At one point I had a a 4BST in the main system with old Thiel 7.2s I had at the time and it is a very large room with 19 foot ceilings (pic below) and the I got the 4BST as the multi-channel entry level high end amp I had could not handle what I had and the 4BST was the about as low as I dared to go (actually went into momentary clipping for about a second a couple of times playing demanding stuff)  When I had the 14BSST, and it replaced the 6BSST up front, there also was a bit more smoothness and better bass control.  There's no doubt in terms of value, warranty and customer support that the Bryston amps are among the most sought after and are an easy sale.  I grabbed a 3BST for the left and right channel of the bedroom system (needed an amp of shallow depth as the Adcom 555 I had barely fit) from a member of Audio Circle.  While I don't have any plans to sell it, if I did, it would be easy sale.  It's nice to be able to do that if one wants to upgrade or change.  Takes away some of the hassle that one doesn't need with the extra expense of an upgrade.


« Last Edit: 8 Aug 2011, 03:35 am by Phil A »

SoundGame

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #45 on: 5 Aug 2011, 02:27 pm »
Short answer - nope  :nono:

I don't believe any of the solid-state supporters on this thread have said that; however, my comments about some of the positive qualities I've heard with tube gear (which I think is a fair statement) may have led you to misintpret it as favouring the sound of tubes over solid state, which is not the case.

It's hard to not generalize when the question posed (SS to Tubes) is a generalization, in itself.  If we want to get into specific applications then we need to start naming models. 

Tubers, please educate me:

What tube amps (new not used) would provide the same/better drive capability, accurateness to source signal, linearity, transparency, flexibility, low-operating cost, reliability, build-quality, 20-year manufacturers transferable warranty and re-sale value as the 4B-SST2? :shake:

I ask for these because they are qualities that many solid-state owners seek in amplification.

Phil - that is a nice shot an system.  Good side discussion. 

Now back to my last question (above) for the tubers.

Pez

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #46 on: 5 Aug 2011, 02:53 pm »
I agree nothing is perfect.I would tend to think that SS would be more consistent across the board.
Maybe that's why it's used so much for reviews.

That's interesting... But valid. The why is this. Most modern speakers are designed to be power hogs. They are intended to run with 100 watt + amplifiers. They have absurdly huge power hog crossovers designed to compensate for every ugly thing their drivers do. In short they are beasts that devour power. These are the speakers the 'experts' use. Modern monsters. Using solid state equipment isn't a choice, it's a requirement. So you get companies like Bryston designing amps that output gobs of power to accommodate modern design because this is what the consumer demands BY DEFAULT.

It's funny, SET tube amps are the sweetest sounding amp I have ever heard and most reviewers will never appreciate it in their setup because 5 watts just won't cut it. Even if those 5 watts KILL anything solid state can produce. That's why I went active so I can use 8 watt SETs and still have gobs of SPLs without compromising and using a single solid state amp.  :wink:

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Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #47 on: 5 Aug 2011, 02:54 pm »
That's funny! But valid. The why is this. Most modern speakers are designed to be power hogs. They are intended to run with 100 watt + amplifiers. They have absurdly huge power hog crossovers designed to compensate for every ugly thing their drivers do. In short they are beasts that devour power. These are the speakers the 'experts' use. Modern monsters. Using solid state equipment isn't a choice, it's a requirement. So you get companies like Bryston designing amps that output gobs of power to accommodate modern design because this is what the consumer demands BY DEFAULT.

It's funny, SET tube amps are the sweetest sounding amp I have ever heard and most reviewers will never appreciate it in their setup because 5 watts just won't cut it. Even if those 5 watts KILL anything solid state can produce. That's why I went active so I can use 8 watt SETs and still have gobs of SPLs without compromising and using a single solid state amp.  :wink:

Hi Pez,

I am working on an active system now - what speakers , electronics and crossovers are you using?

james

BobRex

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #48 on: 5 Aug 2011, 03:05 pm »
Phil - that is a nice shot an system.  Good side discussion. 

Now back to my last question (above) for the tubers.

You're not getting answers to a loaded question, wow, ain't that a surprise! 

Let's see....  who else SS or tube offers the Bryston warranty?  NOBODY!
Who else commands the same resale?  Umm, Mac (both SS and tube), Audio Research (tube), cj (tube),  probably others, but I'm too lazy to investigate.
Who else provides the same drive capability?  VTL, Manley, possibly Atma-Sphere, and of course others...
Who else provides the same accuracy to source signal ?  Virtually all of them; you see the issue isn't input signal, it's the output stage and that's a function of speaker load. (but you knew that, right?)

Out of curiosity, in your poll, (I assume you took one, given your statement regarding what "many solid state owners seek in amplification") how many of this vast number were Bryston owners and purchased based upon the warranty?  How many responders actually own Bryston vs. the myriad other high quality SS amps (Mac, Rowland, Krell, Goldmund.... you get the point)?  Basically, how many users went theough a checklist similar to yours during their decision, or just bought something based upon some other criteria?

Those of you that own Bryston are a small subset of all SS owners, which is still another subset of all HiFi owners, thereby making you a minority.  If everything was sooooo perfect, why are you not the majority?

Look, you love your Bryston, that's cool.  But don't go generalizing about the rest of the world because they either don't follow your same wisdom or hear things differently than you.

Phil A

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #49 on: 5 Aug 2011, 03:06 pm »
I'll add some comments from Dan Wright (since I use both Bryston and Modwright electronics and he is a tube guy and I like good sound regardless of technology) for the purpose of the topic discussion.  The first quote acknowledges that solid state amps require less maintenance and the second describes the strengths of tubes and solid state.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59606.0

“the unit is voiced to give the beauty of tubes with the power, control and low maintenance of SS. “


http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82440.0


“Vacuum tubes are best for amplifying VOLTAGE and SS devices are best for amplifying CURRENT. In a line-level circuit such as this -opposed to an amplifier, tubes require virtually no maintenance.”

Pez

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #50 on: 5 Aug 2011, 03:13 pm »
Hi Pez,

I am working on an active system now - what speakers , electronics and crossovers are you using?

james

I'm using a modified DCX 24/96 and a pair of SET amps I made here: click here check my system description for the full equipment list.  :thumb:

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Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #51 on: 5 Aug 2011, 03:28 pm »
I'm using a modified DCX 24/96 and a pair of SET amps I made here: click here check my system description for the full equipment list.  :thumb:

THANKS :thumb:

james

SoundGame

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #52 on: 5 Aug 2011, 03:40 pm »
Look, you love your Bryston, that's cool.  But don't go generalizing about the rest of the world because they either don't follow your same wisdom or hear things differently than you.

Let's agree to disagree - which I believe is all that will become of the original question on this thread - which is based on a generalization, as I mentioned earlier. 

I see your list - many respected manufacturers - some of which I have personal experience listening to.  That said - when factoring in price point - it becomes another story.

I will say it comes down - as always - to personal preferences, objectives and priorities and constraints.  We all make decisions based on needs and constraints.

Again - I'm not bashing or dismissing the value of tubes in certain applications.  I've heard some wonderful tube and hybrid products; however, my needs, constraints and preferences have led me to my choices.  Whether the choice was the best given these considerations is another question.

Tube or solid state - it's a personal decision based on the factors I've mentioned above.  It's always good to explore. 

P.S. I've heard ModWright and was very tempted to invest there - I love the sound and look of their gear.

Viajero5000

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Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #53 on: 5 Aug 2011, 03:43 pm »
I agree with Dave that the Bryston forum is not really the appropriate venue for a 'tubes vs ss' debate! 

The one thing I would point out for the sake of fairness is that the assumption that all tube equipment lacks transparency, extension, or is coloured etc, is not correct; it is in fact the exact opposite in the case of some SET amps.  But SET vs high power SS is a complete apples/oranges comparison, as each is designed to deal with a very different type of speaker.     

Question for James, did Bryston in its early days ever produce any equipment with tubes inside?


SoundGame

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #54 on: 5 Aug 2011, 03:47 pm »
I agree with Dave that the Bryston forum is not really the appropriate venue for a 'tubes vs ss' debate! 

The one thing I would point out for the sake of fairness is that the assumption that all tube equipment lacks transparency, extension, or is coloured etc, is not correct; it is in fact the exact opposite in the case of some SET amps.  But SET vs high power SS is a complete apples/oranges comparison, as each is designed to deal with a very different type of speaker.     

Question for James, did Bryston in its early days ever produce any equipment with tubes inside?

Let's wait for James - but with all the reading I've done - I've never seen anything in terms of a Bryston tube product; however, who knows what's gone on behind closed doors at skunkworks.

PRELUDE

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #55 on: 5 Aug 2011, 03:48 pm »
That's interesting... But valid. The why is this. Most modern speakers are designed to be power hogs. They are intended to run with 100 watt + amplifiers. They have absurdly huge power hog crossovers designed to compensate for every ugly thing their drivers do. In short they are beasts that devour power. These are the speakers the 'experts' use. Modern monsters. Using solid state equipment isn't a choice, it's a requirement. So you get companies like Bryston designing amps that output gobs of power to accommodate modern design because this is what the consumer demands BY DEFAULT.

It's funny, SET tube amps are the sweetest sounding amp I have ever heard and most reviewers will never appreciate it in their setup because 5 watts just won't cut it. Even if those 5 watts KILL anything solid state can produce. That's why I went active so I can use 8 watt SETs and still have gobs of SPLs without compromising and using a single solid state amp.  :wink:
http://www.marchandelec.com/pfjune.html :thumb:

James Tanner

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Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #56 on: 5 Aug 2011, 03:50 pm »
I agree with Dave that the Bryston forum is not really the appropriate venue for a 'tubes vs ss' debate! 

The one thing I would point out for the sake of fairness is that the assumption that all tube equipment lacks transparency, extension, or is coloured etc, is not correct; it is in fact the exact opposite in the case of some SET amps.  But SET vs high power SS is a complete apples/oranges comparison, as each is designed to deal with a very different type of speaker.     

Question for James, did Bryston in its early days ever produce any equipment with tubes inside?

Yes as a matter of fact we were thinking of introducing a 100 watt tube amplifier way back in the mid 80's as we found one (approach by an engineer from Holland) that we felt offered a state of the art performance relative to other tube amplifiers of the time but decided against it when the blind listening tests did not work out.

james

Viajero5000

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Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #57 on: 5 Aug 2011, 03:59 pm »
Given the constant argument around tubes and ss, what are the chances that Bryston introduce a neutral sounding little tube buffer style unit to be bolted on to the preamp/amp as an optional extra for those who want it?  A little bolt on like that would probably attract a lot of existing and new customers? 

1oldguy

Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #58 on: 5 Aug 2011, 04:03 pm »
Maybe this subject is akin to religion.....I am happy where I am.
That's the bottom line.
I can tell you I can't imagine a smoother sound than I heard out of the 7Bsst.
Not a hint of harshness,completely smooth.

 

Deftone

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Re: SS to Tubes
« Reply #59 on: 5 Aug 2011, 04:07 pm »
I guess it all boils down to what flavor you prefer.One day chocolate and the next day strawberry.