AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Digital Amplifier Company Owners => Topic started by: AmpDesigner333 on 1 Jul 2020, 11:33 pm
-
Looking for suggestions.
Preferably:
- medium efficiency (88-97dB)
- no need to be far from the back wall
- not gigantic
- no need for a sub
- smooth highs
- built to last
- able to deliver high SPL with low distortion
- high wife acceptance factor
-
At that price range, would look at this:
https://www.vandersteen.com/products/model-2ce-signature-iii (https://www.vandersteen.com/products/model-2ce-signature-iii)
It's slightly over 3k, but a well regarded speakers from a reputable manufacturer.
-
At that price range, would look at this:
https://www.vandersteen.com/products/model-2ce-signature-iii
It's slightly over 3k, but a well regarded speakers from a reputable manufacturer.
Really had to zoom in there....
-
Fixed.
-
Would 85 dB work?
(http://salksound.com/gallery/BMR%20Monitors/1.jpg)
BMR Monitors
Response +/- 3db 34Hz - 20kHz
$2595 per pair in a standard veneer
http://salksound.com/model.php?model=BMR+Monitors (http://salksound.com/model.php?model=BMR+Monitors)
Dennis Murphy, the BRM designer describes the BRM's sound:
Differences between Ellis 1801 and Philharmonic BMR monitors
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=171129.msg1811169#msg1811169 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=171129.msg1811169#msg1811169)
-
Fritz Carbon 7 SE MK2 - $2650/pr
88 dB
Fritz Satori 7.5 - $3000/pr
2 way monitor 7.5 Satori 89 dB midbass &
Carbon Fiber tweeter 16H x 9W x 12D
http://www.fritzspeakers.com/sound.asp (http://www.fritzspeakers.com/sound.asp)
-
3 guys in our audiophile group bought these and like them a lot, probably the best $1000 speaker available today.
Zu Omen Dirty Weekend Mk.II with Clarity cap upgrade - $1100
Bandwidth: 35 ~ 25 kHz
Efficiency: 97 dB
https://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers (https://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers)
-
Lately I’ve been seeing a lot of chatter about these, may be something to look into...
EDIT* Lol, I Overlooked the not large and waf requirements.
Height 54"(137.16cm) x Width 12"(30.48cm) x Depth 17.75"(45.085cm)
Weight 118 lbs.
(https://www.tektondesign.com/uploads/9/8/4/7/98478018/double-impact-double_orig.png)
https://www.tektondesign.com/double-impact.html (https://www.tektondesign.com/double-impact.html)
-
$100 less for gloss black and white.
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cantventoref92dcchya/canton-vento-reference-9.2-dc-7-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-piano-cherry-pair/1.html
-
A lot of people here like the Omegas and are very easy to drive. Decware has some interesting designs and Stave highly recommends a pair of Omegas for $2400.
-
One more:
The original Salk Songtower
http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SongTower
(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/SongTower/1.jpg)
Response +/- 3db 38 Hz - 20kHz
Sensitivity 88dB
Dimensions 44.5 H x 8 W x 12 D - small footprint, no stands required
$2195 per pair in black satin or white finish
$2395 per pair in a standard veneer
Magnetic grills are included with all Salk speakers
Salk speakers have the highest WAF of all the speakers mentioned so far. The veneer choices and color is unlimited, you can pick a custom veneer and still be below your $3000 budget. Better yet let your wife choose the veneer and color, they will then be her speakers.
The Songtower's can be front ported enabling them to be placed against the front wall. The transmission line design does not have boomy bass.
The RAAL tweeter in the Songtower RT ($2895 per pair in black satin or white finish) and Supercharged Songtower is sublime and one of the top 2 or 3 tweeters in the world but both speakers edge above your budget. The Supercharged Songtower has a true room filling 34 Hz response, a little smaller (less depth) but kills the budget at $3595 per pair in black satin or white finish or $3895 per pair in a standard veneer
(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/Supercharged%20SongTower/3.jpg)
-
The new Wharfedale Evo 4.4 at $2000. My son and I heard them at RMAF paired with Primare gear. It was one of the best sounding rooms at the show. The AMT folded ribbon tweeter is fabulous. No fatigue or brightness. The sound is very transparent and detailed. The sound stage is huge. It is bottom ported and it is very musical. It has a crisp and clean sound with a hint of warmth. My son bought a pair and is selling his PSB Synchrony One's. They perform way above their price point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMm--jnCpV4
https://www.musicdirect.com/speakers/Wharfedale-EVO-44-Tower-Speakers
-
KEF R7 or R700 serie speakers should meet all your stated requirements with the exception of efficiency, they're probably one Db less efficient than your goal. They and the Salk's are probably the front line competitors for fine finishes that fit in domestically. The KEF's ports can be tuned to work with varying distances from the rear wall which is a plus. Even though their list price is above your limit, Accessories4less.com sells them for 25-30% less than list and they're right at your $3k price point with discount. There's lots of competition at this price point for sure! :lol:
-
Thanks to all for the great suggestions!
Keep them coming!
Just a quick note.... The search is for speakers that can play loud without risk of damage. By loud, I mean 110dB+ peak to the listener. I typically use c-wt for measuring SPL at the listening position, by the way. ....This means speakers with "little woofers" probably won't cut it.
Here's an easy-to-use SPL calculator:
https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
As a reference, let's use KING Maraschino amplifiers, which can conservatively deliver 400Wpc into 4Ω (200W into 8Ω, 270W into 6Ω) in a 2-channel system. With a "standard listening distance" of 8 feet, 4Ω speakers rated at 88dB, the KING Maraschinos will deliver >111dB SPL peak.
-
I would closely at the offerings of Tekton.
here's one:
https://www.tektondesign.com/electron-se.html
-
I would look to a two way built around the new Purifi Woofers. See this link for a good idea of a well-developed kit. https://hificompass.com/en/projects/2-way-systems/puri-bliss-bewg (https://hificompass.com/en/projects/2-way-systems/puri-bliss-bewg)
I would then work with http://www.smjaudio.com/ (http://www.smjaudio.com/) on the cabinet build. Alternatively, you could approach Rick Craig for some ideas within your budget goal. I know he is also working with the Purifi woofers.
-
Thanks to all for the great suggestions!
Keep them coming!
Just a quick note.... The search is for speakers that can play loud without risk of damage. By loud, I mean 110dB+ peak to the listener. I typically use c-wt for measuring SPL at the listening position, by the way. ....This means speakers with "little woofers" probably won't cut it.
Here's an easy-to-use SPL calculator:
https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html (https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html)
As a reference, let's use KING Maraschino amplifiers, which can conservatively deliver 400Wpc into 4Ω (200W into 8Ω, 270W into 6Ω) in a 2-channel system. With a "standard listening distance" of 8 feet, 4Ω speakers rated at 88dB, the KING Maraschinos will deliver >111dB SPL peak.
The woofer issue is one of the primary reasons I recommended the Vandersteen.
-
The search is for speakers that can play loud without risk of damage. By loud, I mean 110dB+ peak to the listener.
110dB at an affordable price. EEK! We are headed into Cerwin Vega territory. :rock:
JBL's are known to play loud but I am unfamiliar with their mid-priced speakers.
I do know that the big Legacy speakers like the Whisper can play 110db all day without breaking a sweat, and clearly too. I have heard Legacy speakers a few times at audio shows, they love to play the drum track off their demo disk. Register at Backstage to download a free music sampler disk with some of the most dynamic tracks you have ever heard. https://www.legacyaudio.com/backstage/ (https://www.legacyaudio.com/backstage/)
The Legacy Expression is above budget ($3245), maybe it follows the family tradition of loud and clean.
https://www.legacyaudio.com/products/view/expression/ (https://www.legacyaudio.com/products/view/expression/)
(https://www.legacyaudio.com/images/made/images/uploads/products/Fronts-Mains/Med_Oak_Expression_web_434_338.jpg)
Tweeter: 1" spiral neo ribbon
Midwoofer: 8" Silver / Graphite woven diaphragm, cast basket, phase compensation plug
Bass: 8" Silver / Graphite woven diaphragm, cast basket, phase compensation plug
Freq. Response (Hz, +/-2dB): 38-22k
Impedance: 4 Ohm
Sensitivity: 94 dB (2.83V @ 1m)
Dimensions: 38.5 x 10.75 x 10.75
There is a pair of older Legacy Focus speakers (retail $10,000) on eBay for $3000 Buy It Now. They are the opposite of "not gigantic" but what the hell.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/333330279410
-
I had a pair of Legacy Signature III's for a couple of years. It would go deep and play loud, BUT, it wasn't the best sounding mid-range. The crossovers in those were absolute crap, cheap as chips parts. Pretty disappointing.
If loud and clean is what one is after, may as well look at used Klipsch K-Horns or LaScala. Once the crossovers are re-built, they can actually sound decent.
-
These might do it for you if they are not to big: https://www.tektondesign.com/double-impact.html
I heard the Double Impacts and purchased Tekton Ulfberhts because I was sold. I was comparing the Double Impacts with Klipsch LaScalas. Not only were the Double Impacts smoother with deeper bass but much easier to listen to for long periods of time.
-
These might do it for you if they are not to big: https://www.tektondesign.com/double-impact.html (https://www.tektondesign.com/double-impact.html)
I heard the Double Impacts and purchased Tekton Ulfberhts because I was sold. I was comparing the Double Impacts with Klipsch LaScalas. Not only were the Double Impacts smoother with deeper bass but much easier to listen to for long periods of time.
Those do look interesting. Would be nice to get real high end performance at that price point.
-
I had the Tekton Enzo XLs on audition, a fantastic speaker that I could've easily kept, but then Eric put his Electron SE on sale and I jumped at them. Delivered yesterday … these are mini Double Impacts if you will. At almost 98db into 4 ohms should be a breeze as was the Enzo through my MEGAschino mkII. At the top of your $$$ scale though. I think well worth every penny also.
-
Fritz Carbon 7 SE MK2 - $2650/pr
88 dB
Fritz Satori 7.5 - $3000/pr
2 way monitor 7.5 Satori 89 dB midbass &
Carbon Fiber tweeter 16H x 9W x 12D
http://www.fritzspeakers.com/sound.asp (http://www.fritzspeakers.com/sound.asp)
I'll second Wayne. Call Fritz; demo the Carbon 7's in your home. You will be very hard pressed to do better at your price-point.
Have fun,
Jerry
-
Feel like DIY'ing? https://www.facebook.com/groups/DIYLoudspeakerProjecPad/permalink/888214784867693/
Jeff Bagby's Helios could be the ticket. It's about $2k for all of the parts which would leave $1k to build and finish the cabinet and crossover parts. For some, I bet a cabinet could be built and finished after the crossover parts were purchased.
Proof it plays loud
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DIYLoudspeakerProjecPad/permalink/802133073475865/
-
With the number of speakers on the market, I would rule out all those that did not have measurements, photos of the crossover and internal construction.
I would bet on existing DIY, made by yourself or on request. But always with a lot of measurements.
-
You could consider buying used too as used speakers are typically sold at 50% off or more. You’ll also get better SQ I’d you take a portion of your budget for room treatments.
-
With the number of speakers on the market, I would rule out all those that did not have measurements, photos of the crossover and internal construction.
Aye, there's the rub. Not many $3000 speakers have all three, it would be an embarrassment.
And how many can reach 110dB without toasting? It appears that reviewers are hesitant to burn up a loaner. An internet search didn't reveal much, all I found was a 110dB Alarm Siren Horn, (https://www.amazon.com/Alarm-Warning-Speaker-Security-System/dp/B07TVCB9WR) maybe I'll try searching for 110dB speaker on youtube.
The only documented measurement I have found so far is Ron Brenay of New Record Day reviewing the Salk Veracity ST (http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Veracity+ST) and yea, they are way over budget at $4695 per pair in a standard veneer. The Veracity ST is the smaller version of my HT2-TL. Before you ask, no, I am not going to see if my speakers can hit 110 dB.
https://newrecordday.com/salk-sound-veracity-st/ (https://newrecordday.com/salk-sound-veracity-st/)
Ron's video has the Veracity ST hitting 102 dB on the Metallica Black album
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211275&size=huge)
-
I just rolled in the ProAc DT8 and WOW!?!? You would have to find them used as they retail for 4k but these "little shits" sound better than my BEHEMOTH Double Impact's with my little Inspire SEP amp... and it's not even close! Just sayin!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211281)
-
Highly recommend DIY as there are plenty of proven designs out there to emulate. Let your money go to upgraded drivers and crossover components and not some company's marketing costs. If woodworking is not your thing, you can purchase knock-down speaker cabinets that are CNC cut and go together effortlessly. Parts Express & Madisound are two excellent sources for DIY speaker building.
BTW, Open Baffle DIY and Cherry Amps are a magical combination. That's what I've been using for the past few years.
-
Best floorstanders <£5k/$6k
-> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/best-floorstanders-%C2%A35k-6k.14376/post-446796
Germany: Canton, Nubert (avoid Nubert amps) and...
Sweden: XTZ. 99 series are cheaper, 1600 €. You can update: Beryllium SEAS T29B00 with audiophile crossover (480 € x2) -> 2,560 €
https://www.xtzsound.eu/product/99-36-flr
https://www.xtzsound.eu/product/beryllium-upgrade
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...e&id=495:e0058-06-t29b001&catid=50&Itemid=360
PS: Canton is the largest European speaker manufacturer.
-
JBL A190. Not a dealer
charles
-
Today's Music Room Friday email has a pair of Vandersteen 2CE Signature II for $1,354.60.
I have bought from The Music Room a couple of times, everything was excellently and professionally packed. I consider them an A+ dealer.
https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/vandersteen-2ce-signature-ii-floorstanding-speakers-black-pair-2-ce/?mc_cid=e9533acc33&mc_eid=fc47f331a4 (https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/vandersteen-2ce-signature-ii-floorstanding-speakers-black-pair-2-ce/?mc_cid=e9533acc33&mc_eid=fc47f331a4)
The Music room has quite of few potential candidates from a Vandersteen 3A to Revel, Focal and Golden Ear - all under $3000.
-
Today's Music Room Friday email has a pair of Vandersteen 2CE Signature II for $1,354.60.
I have bought from The Music Room a couple of times, everything was excellently and professionally packed. I consider them an A+ dealer.
https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/vandersteen-2ce-signature-ii-floorstanding-speakers-black-pair-2-ce/?mc_cid=e9533acc33&mc_eid=fc47f331a4 (https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/vandersteen-2ce-signature-ii-floorstanding-speakers-black-pair-2-ce/?mc_cid=e9533acc33&mc_eid=fc47f331a4)
The Music room has quite of few potential candidates from a Vandersteen 3A to Revel, Focal and Golden Ear - all under $3000.
+1.
-
How many of the speakers mentioned so far can hit 110 dB peaks at the listening position and also be considered low distortion at that level?
-
How many of the speakers mentioned so far can hit 110 dB peaks at the listening position and also be considered low distortion at that level?
Well, if it's loud you want, the JTR Neosis 212's are your ticket to hearing damage!
-
AmpDesigner said in the first post... loud and low distortion.
-
How many of the speakers mentioned so far can hit 110 dB peaks at the listening position and also be considered low distortion at that level?
AmpDesigner is right, 6" drivers ain't gonna cut it.
It was only a matter of time before someone posted this, might as well be me
Happy 4th of July everyone
Grateful Dead Wall of Sound - 1974
"...high-quality playback at six hundred feet with an acceptable sound projected for a quarter mile"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_Sound_(Grateful_Dead) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_Sound_(Grateful_Dead))
(https://i1.wp.com/liveforlivemusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/grateful-dead-wall-of-sound-1974.png?resize=740%2C390&ssl=1)
The untold story of the Grateful Dead's short-lived mega PA, arguably the largest, most technologically innovative sound system ever built.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wnnayb/the-wall-of-sound (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wnnayb/the-wall-of-sound)
"On-stage Wall levels once registered around 127 decibels....The Wall emitted such a clear mix—this August 1974 recording of a Wall show in Jersey City, New Jersey, is a prime example—that it simply didn't seem loud. The fidelity was that high."
The Wall of Sound was conceived by Augustus Owsley "Bear" Stanley III, who also helped design and build it. Bear was also known as a San Francisco-based LSD chemist who's drug was famed for its purity. Bear was immortalized in the Steely Dan song "Kid Charlemagne"
On the hill the stuff was laced with kerosene
But yours was kitchen clean
Everyone stopped to stare at your Technicolor motor home
Every A-frame had your number on the wall
-
AmpDesigner said in the first post... loud and low distortion.
Yeah, I'm always surprised that people want perfection at low price points. Seriously, you simply have to compromise on something if not more than one.
-
Klipsch Forte III will get you there. Not the Heresy (not enough bass) or the Cornwall (too aggressive sounding).
Forte III's are 99db efficient so they'll hit 110db at the lister spot with ease. They also go down to about 40hz with power.
And if you're feeling REALLY adventurous, you can upgrade them - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166996.0
-
Would look at K-Horns. The updated mid and tweeter with a modified crossover can sound pretty good.
You do need two corners.
-
Check out the Salk Songtowers, the basic version at $2000 a pair. They are a slim tower design that perform way over their price point.b
Frsnk
-
With the number of speakers on the market, I would rule out all those that did not have measurements, photos of the crossover and internal construction.
I would bet on existing DIY, made by yourself or on request. But always with a lot of measurements.
Hey!
OK, interesting. So, based on your criteria. What you think would be the best speaker for under $3000?
Buddy
-
Check out the Salk Songtowers, the basic version at $2000 a pair. They are a slim tower design that perform way over their price point.b
Frsnk
I have listened to the Salks at many RMAF shows and not only are they one of the best sounding speakers I have heard, they are one of the most beautiful and well built speakers I’ve ever seen. Simply gorgeous speakers. At last year’s RMAF, I spent a lot of time in the Salk/Schiit room.
But Frank, the op’s original post stated this.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211383)
Do the Songtowers play at high spl’s with no distortion? No need for a sub? And are they okay placed close to a wall?
I’ve only ever heard them at moderate levels.
Thanks.
-
Tyson,
You’re not referring to the new Cornwall 4 or the recently updated Heresy 4, are you?
Klipsch Forte III will get you there. Not the Heresy (not enough bass) or the Cornwall (too aggressive sounding).
Forte III's are 99db efficient so they'll hit 110db at the lister spot with ease. They also go down to about 40hz with power.
And if you're feeling REALLY adventurous, you can upgrade them - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166996.0
-
No thermal distortion at 110 dB and medium to high efficiency with no sub and high WAF? You'll need large (probably multiple) professional woofers in a largish cabinet. To get good sound with those requirements will cost you more than $3k/pair. Beyond the JTR's mentioned above, suggest looking at Duke LeJeune's creations:
https://jamesromeyn.com/audiokinesis-speaker-models/azel-towerb-towerm/
-
I guess it is possible that with some music...a 110db peak could actually be 100db non peak....which would then could be in the 100-105db range at 1M based on the room and speaker positioning.....still, pretty stressful for most speaker to play for a couple hours at that level with peaks to 100db and not worry about damage. Takes a great speaker, great electronics and EAR PROTECTION!
-
Tyson,
You’re not referring to the new Cornwall 4 or the recently updated Heresy 4, are you?
I owned the Heresy III for about 6 months before getting the Forte III. But I've not heard the Heresy IV yet. I did hear the Cornwall IV at RMAF last year and it was disappointing that it was just as forward/shouty as historical Klipsch speakers. Even with nice Cary tube equipment driving it....
-
I did hear the Cornwall IV at RMAF last year and it was disappointing that it was just as forward/shouty as historical Klipsch speakers. Even with nice Cary tube equipment driving it....
This video reports the forward and aggressive sound of Cornwall IV went away after damping the resonant plastic horns, which seems an easy fix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X12FkoQHcTg
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211390)
-
I reached out to Mark Schifter who designs speakers and he suggested to reach out to him. He did mention the 110 db playing level would take a discussion. Most likely would be an open baffle design.
-
Might be a good time to review loudness in general:
https://music.eku.edu/sites/music.eku.edu/files/ekuhealthandsafety.pdf (https://music.eku.edu/sites/music.eku.edu/files/ekuhealthandsafety.pdf)
-
" With extended exposure, noises that reach a decibel level of 85 can cause permanent damage to the hair cells in the inner ear, leading to hearing loss." http://dangerousdecibels.org/education/information-center/noise-induced-hearing-loss/
-
Quick rule of thumb for max SPL....
With two 88dB efficient speakers placed away from the walls and 8 feet from the listener, driven by 400Wpc (peak), you get 109.3dB SPL max.
If you double the power, you gain 3dB SPL. You lose 3dB with half the power.
If your speakers aren’t 88dB, just add or subtract the difference, so 90dB speakers will get you 2dB more, or 111.3dB SPL.
-
Quick rule of thumb for max SPL....
With two 88dB efficient speakers placed away from the walls and 8 feet from the listener, driven by 400Wpc (peak), you get 109.3dB SPL max.
If you double the power, you gain 3dB SPL. You lose 3dB with half the power.
If your speakers aren’t 88dB, just add or subtract the difference, so 90dB speakers will get you 2dB more, or 111.3dB SPL.
....please note this is MAXIMUM SPL, not average SPL. The difference between the peaks and the average is determined by the individual track. Higher Ground (Stevie Wonder) is a pretty dynamic track and I measured 95dB peak at medium volume and 110dB peak at what could be considered “loud”. Still, the system was at only 80% volume when loud, and this was with a MEGA MK2 stereo amp driving 95dB JTRs, so the sound was SUPER CLEAN. This system is capable of about 120dB peak SPL with vanishingly low distortion.
I’d like to discuss the perception in more detail later, but most people associate loudness with distortion. When your system has lots of headroom, and not just on the electronics side, you can play loud without distortion for an amazing effect. The speakers are often the weakest link dynamics-wise when a Cherry Amp is involved based on the ability to deliver clean wideband power. I’m not just saying that because it’s my design. I’m saying that because that was one of the design goals in the first place.
-
Quick rule of thumb for max SPL....
With two 88dB efficient speakers placed away from the walls and 8 feet from the listener, driven by 400Wpc (peak), you get 109.3dB SPL max.
Yep, that can all be objectively calculated.
- not gigantic
- no need for a sub
- high wife acceptance factor
Well....
cheers,
AJ
-
Thought this would be a fun little article to throw into this thread. I plan on being a lot more involved in this topic because it has been on my mind since switching up all my systems and having 4 VERY different systems and speakers in my home.
Anyway, here is the information. It is about the the loudest recorded events.
http://blog.e3diagnostics.com/loudest-live-events-ever-recorded
-
I owned the Heresy III for about 6 months before getting the Forte III. But I've not heard the Heresy IV yet. I did hear the Cornwall IV at RMAF last year and it was disappointing that it was just as forward/shouty as historical Klipsch speakers. Even with nice Cary tube equipment driving it....
+1 on that. I've never heard a Klipsch speaker which I could live with everyday.
-
I own a pair of Tekton - Double Impact SE..
I almost bought the Electron SE ,
and still believe I would have been just as happy with the Electron SE..
-
I own a pair of Tekton - Double Impact SE..
I almost bought the Electron SE ,
and still believe I would have been just as happy with the Electron SE..
Are you strictly 2- channel listening, or do you use them for home theater too? I’m contemplating the double impacts (non SE, but with internal upgrades) for my theater room.
-
Are you strictly 2- channel listening, or do you use them for home theater too? I’m contemplating the double impacts (non SE, but with internal upgrades) for my theater room.
I've owned many Tekton speakers that were inferior to the DI (pendragons, lore and lore reference) and all of them would have been great in Ht. My good friend has the DI and they have great bass and dynamics.
-
....please note this is MAXIMUM SPL, not average SPL. The difference between the peaks and the average is determined by the individual track. Higher Ground (Stevie Wonder) is a pretty dynamic track and I measured 95dB peak at medium volume and 110dB peak at what could be considered “loud”. Still, the system was at only 80% volume when loud, and this was with a MEGA MK2 stereo amp driving 95dB JTRs, so the sound was SUPER CLEAN. This system is capable of about 120dB peak SPL with vanishingly low distortion.
I’d like to discuss the perception in more detail later, but most people associate loudness with distortion. When your system has lots of headroom, and not just on the electronics side, you can play loud without distortion for an amazing effect. The speakers are often the weakest link dynamics-wise when a Cherry Amp is involved based on the ability to deliver clean wideband power. I’m not just saying that because it’s my design. I’m saying that because that was one of the design goals in the first place.
The SPL measurements for playback of Higher Ground were c-weighted.
-
:D those tekton speakers are lower on budgets. And they do have a following. Cheap to buy. Must mean cheaper parts. But they sound great ? Sure would love to hear a pair. Do they have the magic formula? :D
-
:D those tekton speakers are lower on budgets. And they do have a following. Cheap to buy. Must mean cheaper parts. But they sound great ? Sure would love to hear a pair. Do they have the magic formula? :D
Yeah, I've owned the M-Lore and the Pendragon. Parts and construction do seem on the cheap side. They are light in weight and the box sounds hollow as all heck. Build quality is so so. I own the other pro driver speakers out of Utah that are VERY similar. But it's a night and day difference in build quality and sound for that matter. The ZU Speakers build quality is exceptional, beautiful and very solid, nothing cheap about them the sound is better than any Tekton I have ever heard as well, but let's talk about the sound of the Tektons. They are one great sounding speaker! Both the M-Lore and Pendragons sounded great in the systems I had them in. I think Eric does have some magic going on, he focuses on the most important part of a speaker, how do these things sound? And they sound wonderful! I just prefer the ZU's more. I would LOVE to hear a Tekton in my current two channel set up though. The electronics I now have in this system are the best I have ever had, I am sure the Tekton's would shine in this system. Of course, on Tommy's Golden Cherry monoblocks, I am sure the Pendragon or any other Tekton would be superb! They're a GREAT speaker especially for the money.
-
FWIW, Magnepan 1.7i speakers are everything on the list except efficiency and slam, although they put out enough bass to go without the sub.
Price is $1000 less than the proposed limit. There’s a major plus. But.... Efficiency is a low 86dB, so big power is needed for loudness, and they can only be pushed so far as physics takes over. Distortion rises steeply when they reach their excursion limits.
They sound different than “box speakers”, and listeners tend to be split between love/hate. More love here. Big imaging. They seem to disappear. Recordings that were previously unlistenable are suddenly not so bad. Great recordings really shine. Voices are smooth and silky. Transients are sharp but never harsh, but that requires “tight” amplification.
Here’s a pair driven by Cherry MEGA MK2 MONOs (>1000Wpc capable, 120dB). The amps are driven directly (no preamp) by a Cherry 130dB+ DAC DAC 2 HS:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196447)
-
....and $2k over the limit is the JTR 210RT. These do everything right, and sound nothing like the other horn based speakers I’ve heard over the last three decades. Punch, slam, finesse, imaging, near limitless power handling (up to 2000W)....
Super, super impressive. 125 lbs each. It’s actually a 3-way with concentric midrange and tweeter. Crossover points are spread very far apart. These have the lowest distortion I’ve ever measured with REW from a speaker. This system is the same as the one above aside from the speakers (and a professional photographer):
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206777)
-
....and $2k over the limit is the JTR 210RT.
Super, super impressive. 125 lbs each. It’s actually a 3-way with concentric midrange and tweeter.
Those BMS dual-diaphragm concentric compression drivers are very interesting. The advantages are clear, but it does mean an extra crossover is needed compared to a single-diaphragm 1.4" compression driver, for example. Would love to listen to a version with active crossover with no passive crossover between the amp and the dual diaphragms, preserving the astonishing 118dB sensitivity instead of padding them down to 95dB sensitivity.
-
....and $2k over the limit is the JTR 210RT. These do everything right, and sound nothing like the other horn based speakers I’ve heard over the last three decades. Punch, slam, finesse, imaging, near limitless power handling (up to 2000W)....
Super, super impressive. 125 lbs each. It’s actually a 3-way with concentric midrange and tweeter. Crossover points are spread very far apart. These have the lowest distortion I’ve ever measured with REW from a speaker. This system is the same as the one above aside from the speakers (and a professional photographer):
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206777)
The JTR 210RTs are the speakers that I really want, but too far out of my budget as I’m trying to replace the front end of my home theater (where I also listen to music), so that would be $7500 (plus shipping) for 3 towers or $7300 for 2 towers and a 210RM center (granted there may be a little wiggle room in pricing as I’ve bought from Jeff before). Whereas the Tekton Double Impacts are $3300 (with upgrade, shipped) and they have a special for $600 for the matching center (plus $150) for the upgrade so a total of $4050 shipped. I tried to get away with going the least expensive route through JTR by trying out 3 110HTs (originally designed for surround duties), but I’m using them as my front stage. Their clarity and dynamics are unreal, but they have to be put close to the wall to reach 80hz to match my sub crossover. Unfortunately for music (soundstage/depth/etc) they sound way better off the wall, but lack midbass/bass. So I think I’ll be sending them back. Maybe I’ll try the Tekton’s, rock them for a couple years until I magically fall into money and can go full JTR.
-
I'm not sure the JTRs pass the living room looks test...but at a similar price, here is another speaker that I think would fit the bill. I've heard other Volti speakers at shows and would definitely put them on my own personal short list....on the other hand, they might be a little bit too boxy in their overall looks for some.
http://voltiaudio.com/razz/ (http://voltiaudio.com/razz/)
One other thought....I doubt most of us ever play music at anywhere near 110+ db....BUT...one thing it suggests for the few people that do is that the last watt is as important as the first watt.
-
....and $2k over the limit is the JTR 210RT. These do everything right, and sound nothing like the other horn based speakers I’ve heard over the last three decades. Punch, slam, finesse, imaging, near limitless power handling (up to 2000W)....
Super, super impressive. 125 lbs each. It’s actually a 3-way with concentric midrange and tweeter. Crossover points are spread very far apart. These have the lowest distortion I’ve ever measured with REW from a speaker. This system is the same as the one above aside from the speakers (and a professional photographer):
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206777)
JTR are hard to believe for the price, such a great deal!
Personally, I'd remove the stock xo and use a small SET amp on the compression driver, but that's just my preference. I don't believe perfect time alignment at the lower xo frequency matters at all.
-
....and $2k over the limit is the JTR 210RT. These do everything right, and sound nothing like the other horn based speakers I’ve heard over the last three decades. Punch, slam, finesse, imaging, near limitless power handling (up to 2000W)....
Super, super impressive. 125 lbs each. It’s actually a 3-way with concentric midrange and tweeter. Crossover points are spread very far apart. These have the lowest distortion I’ve ever measured with REW from a speaker. This system is the same as the one above aside from the speakers (and a professional photographer):
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206777)
+1. Hopefully you got my PM.
Best,
Anand.
-
Shifting gears to hit the SPL and efficiency requirements...
How about the new Vortex kit by DIYSoundgroup? https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-theater-speaker-kits/home-theater-series/vortex.html (https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-theater-speaker-kits/home-theater-series/vortex.html) Eric has run a great shop for many years and has a stellar reputation in the DIY world.
To hit the WAF factor I would turn to a shop like SMJ to create and execute a good looking design. http://www.smjaudio.com/ (http://www.smjaudio.com/) If you need help in designing your speaker you could hire Ivica as I did for my own speaker project.
Ivica designed this speaker for me from a Selah kit. Also I'm sure Rick Craig could build you a set of speakers that hits your target :rock:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184733)
-
I'm not sure the JTRs pass the living room looks test...but at a similar price, here is another speaker that I think would fit the bill. I've heard other Volti speakers at shows and would definitely put them on my own personal short list....on the other hand, they might be a little bit too boxy in their overall looks for some.
http://voltiaudio.com/razz/ (http://voltiaudio.com/razz/)
One other thought....I doubt most of us ever play music at anywhere near 110+ db....BUT...one thing it suggests for the few people that do is that the last watt is as important as the first watt.
Those look sweet! But waaaaaaaayyyy over my price as well. I can spend about $2000 on a pair of speakers. That's my limit.
And yes, you are correct, if there is anyone listening at 110dbs everyday, well your hearing is already shot anyway. That's literally approaching concert levels. But, it's for sure fun to jam out to a great Rush, RATM or Metallica song at those levels here and there. And yes, that first watt is what matters the most. That's primarily what you are listening to everyday. Steve Deckert from Decware came out with an article about the first watt. If the first watt sucks, why do you want more?
-
For $2000, I'd go used Tekton and get the DI or Electrons.
-
https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/motion-40i
I have a stand mount model of these Martin Logan Motion speakers. They are sublime with the sweetest tweeter sound I've ever heard.
-
https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/motion-40i
I have a stand mount model of these Martin Logan Motion speakers. They are sublime with the sweetest tweeter sound I've ever heard.
Sweetest tweeter. What about the rest of the speaker?
Dynamic and play at concert levels without strain or distortion? That's the jist of the post.
-
For $2000, I'd go used Tekton and get the DI or Electrons.
That's a speaker line I am keeping an eye out on. If something like that from Tekton presents itself out there on the used market, I may just snatch it up. I am also in talks right now with a guy who has the PSB Stratus Gold. First editions in pristine condition. I couldn't afford them back in 98 so had to get the Stratus Silver's but man are they good!
-
Those BMS dual-diaphragm concentric compression drivers are very interesting. The advantages are clear, but it does mean an extra crossover is needed compared to a single-diaphragm 1.4" compression driver, for example. Would love to listen to a version with active crossover with no passive crossover between the amp and the dual diaphragms, preserving the astonishing 118dB sensitivity instead of padding them down to 95dB sensitivity.
Getting rid of the passive crossover doesn't 'preserve' the 118db sensitivity of the mid/high drivers. They still have to be damped down to match the sensitivity of the bass section, whether using a passive or active.
And that's true of any speaker - all drivers have to be damped down to match the level of whatever driver is the least sensitive in the system (usually the bass drivers).
-
I don't know what the Tekton speakers sound like, many people like them a lot.
But they are not as efficient as their specs suggest. Stereophile tested two models, both spec'ed at 97db, they tested at 91.5db and 92.5db. So just a bit more than many other common speakers which test at 90-91db.
I would assume them to be right around 92db and plan my power needs accordingly.
-
Yeah, I've owned the M-Lore and the Pendragon. Parts and construction do seem on the cheap side. They are light in weight and the box sounds hollow as all heck. Build quality is so so. I own the other pro driver speakers out of Utah that are VERY similar. But it's a night and day difference in build quality and sound for that matter. The ZU Speakers build quality is exceptional, beautiful and very solid, nothing cheap about them the sound is better than any Tekton I have ever heard as well...
Just curious if you compared the Zu and Tekton in the same system, same time, etc. I had Tekton Lores and Zu Omens and took them to a friends house where 3 of us listened. From what we heard that day I would be surprised if anyone would prefer the Omens, but YMMV and all that.
The Zu build quality was a bit better IMO.
But they are not as efficient as their specs suggest. Stereophile tested two models, both spec'ed at 97db, they tested at 91.5db and 92.5db. So just a bit more than many other common speakers which test at 90-91db.
I would assume them to be right around 92db and plan my power needs accordingly.
I would agree with this, seemed like it took a good bit more juice to get them playing than I expected from a 97db speaker.
-
Keep in mind the following:
The higher the spl @ 1 watt is, the more likely it is that the speaker's frequency response curve will deviate from flat. There is no free lunch when it comes to speaker design and performance.
-
I don't know what the Tekton speakers sound like, many people like them a lot.
But they are not as efficient as their specs suggest. Stereophile tested two models, both spec'ed at 97db, they tested at 91.5db and 92.5db. So just a bit more than many other common speakers which test at 90-91db.
I would assume them to be right around 92db and plan my power needs accordingly.
Tekton is a great speaker. And performs well above their price point. And you are correct, the sensitivity is not as good as they advertise, but still not bad.
-
Just curious if you compared the Zu and Tekton in the same system, same time, etc. I had Tekton Lores and Zu Omens and took them to a friends house where 3 of us listened. From what we heard that day I would be surprised if anyone would prefer the Omens, but YMMV and all that.
The Zu build quality was a bit better IMO.
I would agree with this, seemed like it took a good bit more juice to get them playing than I expected from a 97db speaker.
Nope. That's why it's not a fair comparison. I think I might have already stated that I would LOVE to hear the Tektons in this room with these electronics. Would be a completely different experience.
I LOVE the ZU sound. What I am hearing at this moment while typing this is some of the best music I have ever heard in my own home.
With that said, what do you think would be similar to ZU's but even better?
-
Seems people like to DIS the Tekton brand or the DIs speaker. The larger speakers in the line were just to large/heavy for me, been there, done that years earlier with VMPS.
The Electron SE should be ideal for me. Also folks, they just don't hand out patents on audio much anymore. Ask yourself why did they allow a new patent on Eric"s 6 tweeter polygon design ??? 10 drivers per cabinet and a 4 way design, a lot of speaker for the asking price. You certainly can spend more and get far worse sound.
-
Seems people like to DIS the Tekton brand or the DIs speaker. The larger speakers in the line were just to large/heavy for me, been there, done that years earlier with VMPS.
The Electron SE should be ideal for me. Also folks, they just don't hand out patents on audio much anymore. Ask yourself why did they allow a new patent on Eric"s 6 tweeter polygon design ??? 10 drivers per cabinet and a 4 way design, a lot of speaker for the asking price. You certainly can spend more and get far worse sound.
Just to be clear. I am not in the camp of DISSING the Tekton gear. I really enjoyed it! I actually praise Tekton gear. I'm always suggesting their speakers. The build quality isn't as nice as ZU or a lot of other speakers, but it's not bad by any means. Whats the most important thing is how they sound. And they are a GREAT sounding speaker. I want to try out some offerings from Tekton in this room. I might just do that.
-
Nope. That's why it's not a fair comparison. I think I might have already stated that I would LOVE to hear the Tektons in this room with these electronics. Would be a completely different experience.
I LOVE the ZU sound. What I am hearing at this moment while typing this is some of the best music I have ever heard in my own home.
With that said, what do you think would be similar to ZU's but even better?
I really liked my Omens when I had them as well. I didn't want to overstate our preference of the Lores over the Omens, I could have lived with either. And room, system, music played, etc. all play into it.
But I kinda feel like I pulled us away from the OP's query which was not my intent.
-
Must issue an apology.
It was Zu speakers, not Tekton, that Stereophile tested and found to be less efficient than spec'ed. Averaging 92db instead of 97db.
I got them switched in my mind. My bad.
-
Must issue an apology.
It was Zu speakers, not Tekton, that Stereophile tested and found to be less efficient than spec'ed. Averaging 92db instead of 97db.
I got them switched in my mind. My bad.
92, 97 100, ALL I know is they love clean power and current! The better and more power I have used with them, the better they have sounded and responded. Especially in the sound stage and bass department.
-
I need to step in here. I’ve heard a pair of Tekton DIs driven by Classic Cherry amps and they were pretty good. BUT.... the bass wasn’t as impressive as the JTRs, which go down to 25Hz and cost less than the version I was hearing. The airiness wasn’t there, and the midrange sounded, well, not very refined. Just so-so in some ways, but when not pushed hard, they do have some real finesse. These had several upgrades, including a piano black finish, which was simply beautiful!
I’m looking for CLARITY!! Realism in spades. Like B&W’s super expensive models, but less “hard” in the highs. Maybe this is why I tend to like speakers with soft some tweeters, like the old D28AF. I’m getting some Dynaudios soon! Can’t wait to hear them!!
That said.... Vons are amazing. A pair of VR5s at a buddy’s house were just about the best sounding speakers I heard at the time. $27k list. So were KEF Blade-2s at the same house I heard the Tekton DIs.
-
How about Spatial?
-
How about Spatial?
You stated that you wanted speakers that don't have to be pulled out the front wall, so you can eliminate all dipoles, including open baffles and Maggies. WAF is subjective, but doubt Spatial would pass the mustard.
Haven't heard JTR but they're probably the closest you'll get for your unrealistic expectations of high spls, full range, close to front wall, budget, huge size, and of course sound quality. But large flat black boxes again probably won't pass the WAF test, so expect to spend more to dress them up.
-
I'm going to put in a word here for Salk....
Beautifully crafted, 106db at the listening position per the calculator you referenced with 100 watts, soft dome tweeter....and transmission line rather than ported allows for much closer wall placement and very good low end...and easy to blend seamlessly with a sealed sub...and under the budget.
https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SongTower (https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SongTower)
-
How about a transmission line (TL) speaker? They have excellent bass response, and work well without having to pull them well away from the wall.
The German company T+A (Theory and Application) Criterion line would fit the bill, assuming you can find a good pair second hand. The set I own are 20Hz to 20KHz, low 90s db/w, and adjustable crossovers for bass and treble.
Pretty hard to find what you are after new. Good luck.
-
I'm not sure why these are getting more consideration? https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-theater-speaker-kits/home-theater-series/vortex/vortex-15-kit.html (https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-theater-speaker-kits/home-theater-series/vortex/vortex-15-kit.html)
Product Highlights:
Very detailed sound with superb dynamics.
Extremely low distortion from the woofer and compression driver.
Easy to power with a true 98db 2.83v/meter sensitivity.
Quality name brand components.
Will handle 500 watts and play over 120db.
Can be used full range for music when built into a 5cuft cabinet.
Designed to work best for home theater when paired with a subwoofer system.
A few other details on these - From a user "Vortex-15s in ~2.5 cubic foot ported cabinets that I built myself out of 3/4" Baltic birch. In this alignment, they play down to about 65Hz"
These have been in development for years http://www.hificircuit.com/community/threads/hyperlite-coaxials.5623/ (http://www.hificircuit.com/community/threads/hyperlite-coaxials.5623/)
Kit information with measurements http://www.hificircuit.com/community/threads/vortex-speaker-kits.5622/ (http://www.hificircuit.com/community/threads/vortex-speaker-kits.5622/)
I know these are a kit but it isn't hard to get good boxes made for $2,200 which is what you would have left in your budget. You could also upgrade a few of the parts etc.
This should get your attention...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211499)
-
How about Spatial?
Love Clayton's speakers but they need room to breathe and open up. Like our Maggie's .
-
How about this:
http://tyleracoustics.com/Deal%20of%20the%20week.html (http://tyleracoustics.com/Deal%20of%20the%20week.html)
-
I'm going to put in a word here for Salk....
Beautifully crafted, 106db at the listening position per the calculator you referenced with 100 watts, soft dome tweeter....and transmission line rather than ported allows for much closer wall placement and very good low end...and easy to blend seamlessly with a sealed sub...and under the budget.
https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SongTower (https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SongTower)
Frank at AVA suggested these earlier as well. My reply was if they can stand up to some punishment and higher SPL's without distortion. And I think the point of this thread was a speaker that can play loud and bass with authority without the need of a sub.
With that said, I have heard Salk speakers many times at RMAF events and I usually spend more time in their room than a lot of others, because I love the sound. They sound and look spectacular. I've wanted to own a pair for quite sometime. But I have never heard them at higher volumes and spl's, it's always been at moderate levels. I wonder how they sound cranked up some.
-
You stated that you wanted speakers that don't have to be pulled out the front wall, so you can eliminate all dipoles, including open baffles and Maggies. WAF is subjective, but doubt Spatial would pass the mustard.
Haven't heard JTR but they're probably the closest you'll get for your unrealistic expectations of high spls, full range, close to front wall, budget, huge size, and of course sound quality. But large flat black boxes again probably won't pass the WAF test, so expect to spend more to dress them up.
Agreed. At that price point DIY might be your best bet.
-
How about this:
http://tyleracoustics.com/Deal%20of%20the%20week.html (http://tyleracoustics.com/Deal%20of%20the%20week.html)
WOW! Those look amazing! I have never heard of them but they look like they can pound out some nice tunes.
-
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211501)
FR 26hz-20k.
These look legit!
-
AVS FAN
Those speakers look more like these....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211510)
-
AVS FAN
Those speakers look more like these....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211510)
I knew there was a reason I was visually drawn to them. I love Easter Island!
-
How about these ($3400/pr)?
https://vintageking.com/proac-studio-sm100-pair-black
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211516)
-
+1. Hopefully you got my PM.
Best,
Anand.
Yes, and replied. Thanks as always for your kind message (:
-
Keep in mind the following:
The higher the spl @ 1 watt is, the more likely it is that the speaker's frequency response curve will deviate from flat. There is no free lunch when it comes to speaker design and performance.
A friend of mine since high school is a speaker builder and we worked on several designs together decades ago. We concluded that the more efficient speakers are, the more likely they will sound harsh or distorted. Say this around certain people and prepare for a beat-down!
-
How about these ($3400/pr)?
https://vintageking.com/proac-studio-sm100-pair-black
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211516)
I think you're screwing with us now!!!! :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
-
You stated that you wanted speakers that don't have to be pulled out the front wall, so you can eliminate all dipoles, including open baffles and Maggies. WAF is subjective, but doubt Spatial would pass the mustard.
Haven't heard JTR but they're probably the closest you'll get for your unrealistic expectations of high spls, full range, close to front wall, budget, huge size, and of course sound quality. But large flat black boxes again probably won't pass the WAF test, so expect to spend more to dress them up.
Maybe I should have prioritized the "list of demands" since being away from the wall isn't nearly as much of a concern as being able to deliver high SPL cleanly....
I agree 100% with respect to Mags needing their space! That, plus WAF being totally depending on the W. Good points!
-
I think you're screwing with us now!!!! :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
Hmmmm. What would you think that?
-
A friend of mine since high school is a speaker builder and we worked on several designs together decades ago. We concluded that the more efficient speakers are, the more likely they will sound harsh or distorted. Say this around certain people and prepare for a beat-down!
Sounds like you're trolling your own thread. :lol:
-
Hmmmm. What would you think that?
- It's UGLY
- A 6" by 1" setup here is a favorite quote from Troelsgraven Visitor quote: "I thought I'd be hearing just another "six + one", the world's most common and boring speakers."
- 88db linear (Doubtful) with 150 watts of power handling - You want 110 db peaks seated and you're an amp designer c'mon you know this speaker will never work or sound horribly distorted at elevated volumes
- Over budget target by $400
- You say speakers with little woofers wont cut it. Then recommend a 6" + 1"
- 26lbs :duh: :duh: :duh: :duh: :duh:
So yes it feels like you're screwing with us :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
-
How about these ($3400/pr)?
https://vintageking.com/proac-studio-sm100-pair-black (https://vintageking.com/proac-studio-sm100-pair-black)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211516)
Not enough bass.
-
A friend of mine since high school is a speaker builder and we worked on several designs together decades ago. We concluded that the more efficient speakers are, the more likely they will sound harsh or distorted. Say this around certain people and prepare for a beat-down!
Wound tend to agree. One of the most transparent speakers I've owned was Acoustat 33s, which had a fairly low db/w.
-
- It's UGLY
- A 6" by 1" setup here is a favorite quote from Troelsgraven Visitor quote: "I thought I'd be hearing just another "six + one", the world's most common and boring speakers."
- 88db linear (Doubtful) with 150 watts of power handling - You want 110 db peaks seated and you're an amp designer c'mon you know this speaker will never work or sound horribly distorted at elevated volumes
- Over budget target by $400
- You say speakers with little woofers wont cut it. Then recommend a 6" + 1"
- 26lbs :duh: :duh: :duh: :duh: :duh:
So yes it feels like you're screwing with us :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
Play me loud and all of your wildest dreams will come true.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211517)
-
How about this:
http://tyleracoustics.com/Deal%20of%20the%20week.html (http://tyleracoustics.com/Deal%20of%20the%20week.html)
VERY interesting! The sale price gets them right at $3000.
They have some other interesting designs, too:
http://www.tyleracoustics.com/Decade%20X.html
Wish they showed more detailed specifications, though.
Who here has actually heard this brand, and what did you think?
-
Play me loud and all of your wildest dreams will come true.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211517)
The used one is 3K, with a warranty.
-
Keep in mind that some speakers that may have not sounded that great, but otherwise fit the criteria, may sound significantly better when driven by Cherry amps!
-
VERY interesting! The sale price gets them right at $3000.
They have some other interesting designs, too:
http://www.tyleracoustics.com/Decade%20X.html (http://www.tyleracoustics.com/Decade%20X.html)
Wish they showed more detailed specifications, though.
Who here has actually heard this brand, and what did you think?
I've had their Linbrook series, and they were pretty good.
-
The used one is 3K, with a warranty.
It's not available anymore.
-
Maybe we helped sell it for Ty. :green:
PS: Ty is a good guy to work with.
-
Maybe we helped sell it for Ty. :green:
PS: Ty is a good guy to work with.
Yeah. To me! Lol. I’ve been chatting with him via email all day.
He seems like a super nice guy.
-
Yeah. To me! Lol. I’ve been chatting with him via email all day.
He seems like a super nice guy.
That's great! I've known Ty for several years. He will work with the customer to get what they want.
Looking forward to your review. :thumb:
-
I knew there was a reason I was visually drawn to them. I love Easter Island!
Have you ever been? I would love to go there someday.
-
A friend of mine since high school is a speaker builder and we worked on several designs together decades ago. We concluded that the more efficient speakers are, the more likely they will sound harsh or distorted. Say this around certain people and prepare for a beat-down!
We clearly have different tastes in speakers. I love HE Speakers and do not like the more "clinical" speakers that you're drawn to. However, no hate thrown your way. We are all different. With that in mind, you likely would not like the Spatials then as I love the X-5's.
-
We clearly have different tastes in speakers. I love HE Speakers and do not like the more "clinical" speakers that you're drawn to. However, no hate thrown your way. We are all different. With that in mind, you likely would not like the Spatials then as I love the X-5's.
I heard Spatials twice and loved them both times!
-
The X series?
-
The X series?
Yes. Heard these at AXPONA last year:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211567)
Unfortunately, Clayton didn’t have a pair of Golden Cherry Maraschinos yet.
-
Is anyone here familiar with Aperion?
These are $2000/pr:
https://www.aperionaudio.com/collections/verus-speakers/products/verus-iii-grand-tower-speaker
Maybe light in the bass, but otherwise....
Here’s a response graph:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211604)
-
Tommy, have you had a chance to listen to any of the non-reference JTR speakers (HT line)? If so, how do they compare to the Tekton Double Impacts?
-
Tommy, have you had a chance to listen to any of the non-reference JTR speakers (HT line)? If so, how do they compare to the Tekton Double Impacts?
Only as surround speakers, so essentially no. The JTRs (RT) can knock you over, and can handle nearly unlimited power, so not much compares. Aside from the impact factor, the Tekton's don't sound as refined as the JTRs. I do like both, but the Tekton's are much more affordable, so it's not a fair comparison.
Not everyone likes panel speakers, but at $2000 or so, the Magnepan 1.7i is simply amazing for the price. Like I mentioned, you'll need serious clean power to play loud, and they do like space around them, AND I highly recommend absorption behind them. I've lived with the 1.7i Mags for more than a year, and there's something about the way they just disappear into the music! However, for loud, clear, rock music, I use the JTRs, ....or the Dynaudios (see my new thread about them, https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=171294.0).
-
Music, whether heard live or heard in my home system has to be emotionally engaging for me to want to take time to "hear more".
I suspect that many would agree that loud music can be engaging because the volume (usually the bass) overpowers everything and grabs your attention...nevertheless, the more I've pondered this thread, the more I've come to realize that personally, I don't enjoy music at the 100+db level.
Not only does it hurt my ears, but the beauty/delicacy/detail/nuances of the music are smeared or lost. It is less interesting. And so, the question becomes, how to build a system that is emotionally engaging at 80 db with 85-90 db peaks (and less damaging to the hearing).
Systems have come and gone throughout my life. The most recent quest started six years ago and since then I've purchased or tried three Disc/DAC players, three preamps, four power amps and four pair of speakers....(no changes to my system over the past 14 months except switching to Pine Tree Audio speaker cables).
Each move was meant to either add something that was missing or subtract something that was negative...and my final purchase, the one that pulled it altogether, the one that removed a veil and made the music "come alive and really sound good at 80db" was the 2Cherry.
Some day, I would love to hear the JTRs....but not at 100db.
-
Music, whether heard live or heard in my home system has to be emotionally engaging for me to want to take time to "hear more".
I suspect that many would agree that loud music can be engaging because the volume (usually the bass) overpowers everything and grabs your attention...nevertheless, the more I've pondered this thread, the more I've come to realize that personally, I don't enjoy music at the 100+db level.
Not only does it hurt my ears, but the beauty/delicacy/detail/nuances of the music are smeared or lost. It is less interesting. And so, the question becomes, how to build a system that is emotionally engaging at 80 db with 85-90 db peaks (and less damaging to the hearing).
Systems have come and gone throughout my life. The most recent quest started six years ago and since then I've purchased or tried three Disc/DAC players, three preamps, four power amps and four pair of speakers....(no changes to my system over the past 14 months except switching to Pine Tree Audio speaker cables).
Each move was meant to either add something that was missing or subtract something that was negative...and my final purchase, the one that pulled it altogether, the one that removed a veil and made the music "come alive and really sound good at 80db" was the 2Cherry.
Some day, I would love to hear the JTRs....but not at 100db.
RonN5,
That's exactly how I feel. What a great way of putting it. Yes, music at a concert or at home has to be fun and engaging.
Dynamic and loud are two different things. Being dynamic and engaging can be at 100db's it can also be at 70db's. That's what I love about the DAC amps. It brings out all the dynamics, details and nuances at low, moderate and high volumes. I can be playing something that isn't at ear bleed levels that sounds very dynamic and engaging. Having a system that can also play loud, higher SPL's and db's, while still maintaining it's composure and detail is a treat too. A lot of systems can play loud, they just sound terrible in doing so. I can play my current system pretty loud and it sound so good. I was recording peaks of 98.5db's the other day and it sounded clean, detailed and I could still hear all the little nuances. Of course that is LOUD and I would never continue to listen at those volumes for an extended period of time.
But there is just some music meant to be played loud. Metallica, Primus and NIN are just so much fun at higher db's.
But I agree, 80db with +10db peaks is PLENTY loud and engaging enough for me for most listening. Later at night it's even a lot lower db's but still engaging.
In regards to Pine Tree Audio. Unless Jesse stops building cables, I will NEVER buy my cables anywhere else! Love his stuff, top notch workmanship and quality but not over priced snake oil cables. He's built my power cords, balanced XLR's and he built my passive pre-amp too. Great stuff! He's working on some speaker cables now.
-
In regards to Pine Tree Audio. Unless Jesse stops building cables, I will NEVER buy my cables anywhere else! Love his stuff, top notch workmanship and quality but not over priced snake oil cables. He's built my power cords, balanced XLR's and he built my passive pre-amp too. Great stuff! He's working on some speaker cables now.
Because my system is in the main living area and the speaker wires are exposed, I wanted something that was unique looking but also "said" quality. I had him build a pair of hex braid cables, 3 - 14awg legs per side...so 9 awg overall. And as you know, he sends you the measurements of your wires for a few bucks more.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211809)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211806)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211807)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211808)
-
Because my system is in the main living area and the speaker wires are exposed, I wanted something that was unique looking but also "said" quality. I had him build a pair of hex braid cables, 3 - 14awg legs per side...so 9 awg overall. And as you know, he sends you the measurements of your wires for a few bucks more.
Great that MEASUREMENTS come with these cables! The last page is the important one, by the way.
The “clickable link”:
https://pinetreeaudio.com/
I’d like to help support his efforts!
They look nice, too. Maybe not as nice as MEGA Snakes, but....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195777)
-
Great that MEASUREMENTS come with these cables! The last page is the important one, by the way.
The “clickable link”:
https://pinetreeaudio.com/
I’d like to help support his efforts!
They look nice, too. Maybe not as nice as MEGA Snakes, but....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195777)
Way to pay it forward. That's cool of you to do. He's a non nonsense no bs kind of guy. Quick to show you measurements on everything he does. He's a straight shooter. And I like how he can customize everything to your exact specifications.
The Mega Snakes look great and I bet they sound even better!
-
But back to this thread and the OP's speaker requirements and search. After my very intense search for speakers myself and really understanding what's important to me. I know that bookshelves and smaller driver speakers have their place and people who enjoy their sound. And yeah, for 10:30 at night for very low level listening, which is what I am doing now, they're great. But I really don't understand the desire of wanting small speakers if you can have large floor standing speakers. I want something that plays loud but sounds great doing so. I've used this term a lot lately, an "audiophile" rock and roll speaker. Something fun, engaging and something I just groove to. A speaker that sounds dynamic, detailed and clean at low levels and just gets better as the volume is raised. And I saw it mention and suggested earlier, the ZU Audio Omen Dirty Weekend has been my go to and perfect speaker for nearly three years now. And I have just recently moved them into my higher end room with my DAC Golden Cherry Mononblocks. It's the best audio system and speaker I have ever owned and I have some VERY coveted and high quality speakers in my systems right now. ZU's, Omega Super 3 HO'S and the Magnepan LRS's. And if I could only live with one speaker and a speaker that meets the OP's requirements. The ZU's are hands down a winner! And for only $999! To be honest, they are the $2250 Omen minus a few very minor bells and whistles. And I doubt any of those bells and whistles make a huge audible difference. The only one I did hear a difference in was the clarity cap upgrade and that's only a $100 upgrade. So for $1100, you pretty much get a $2250 speaker. So far that is my pick for the best under $3000 speaker that meets all the op's requirements. But........ I am VERY open minded and if there is a speaker out there that gives me a lot of what the Zu does but takes in a step further, I am all ears! I am really trying to put together my end game two channel system. I want to move my ZU's back to my theater room. But that means I have to replace them in here with something better, or another pair of Dirty Weekends.
-
I couldn't agree more in regard to speaker choices. My current favorites are Zu Omen DW's (with Clarity's) and Klipsch Heresy III's. This for the very reasons you mention. Both need at least a medium sized room to strut their stuff. Acoustic treatments further enhance the experience, both absorbtion and diffusion. All genres are invited to the party, even audiophile approved tinkle music if you must. Used with either 40 or 60 watt tube amps.
-
I couldn't agree more in regard to speaker choices. My current favorites are Zu Omen DW's (with Clarity's) and Klipsch Heresy III's. This for the very reasons you mention. Both need at least a medium sized room to strut their stuff. Acoustic treatments further enhance the experience, both absorbtion and diffusion. All genres are invited to the party, even audiophile approved tinkle music if you must. Used with either 40 or 60 watt tube amps.
So I wonder if there is another speaker similar to our ZU's that dial it up a notch or two or a few. :D
Why can't we just be happy? It's not in our nature. Always want a little more instrument separation, that little more impact of a dual kick drum, deeper soundstage, more holographic imaging.
But I am VERY pleased with the ZU's. Maybe there isn't another speaker that will give me this much enjoyment unless I spend a significant more amount of money.
But the ZU's do it all! Primus at 100+ db peaks, check, 2Pac rattling the pictures on my wall, check, Diana Krall with her beautiful voice, check, Tom Morello's wild guitar riffs, check, Harry Connick Jr Jazz, check.
The ZU isn't a one trick pony. It does it all. And what I like about the ZU's, they are not picky with downstream electronics, nor picky with rooms or placement. They are going to sound great pretty much anywhere you place them. Now of course, the more attention you pay to room acoustics and treatment, the better electronics you pair them with, the better they get. That goes without saying. Every time I upgraded something in the chain, they got better.
The way I kind of look at it is, ZU built this speaker for the audiophile masses. People who value high quality audio but don't want to fuss with careful speaker placement nor careful system matching to make them sound good. They are turn key ready, plug and play and rock out! A speaker that does it all, two channel, home theater whatever. ZU really really hit a homerun with it. Probably the only reason they sell it 3-4 times a year. If they built it all year they would have to hire more staff.
Man, after reading my own reply, I sound like a ZU employee!
I can assure you, I am not. :D
-
I have a question about the Omens, I owned the Tekton Lores (can play very loud and are very dynamic) and with their 10” driver crossed to the tweeter at 3000hz... the sweet spot was 6” wide. I’m wondering with the Omens crossed much higher if their sweet spot is even narrower.
-
Omega sams with Townsend super tweeter. I swung that deal for $2800. I also bought 2 rel subs For another $800. I may not hit the 110 dB peak, but I have this hooked up to A 40 W integrated. Top to bottom sound and loud enough for me. I have SS monos...those make the omegas pump out crazy bass I’ve felt in my couch cushions.
-
Omega sams with Townsend super tweeter. I swung that deal for $2800. I also bought 2 rel subs For another $800. I may not hit the 110 dB peak, but I have this hooked up to A 40 W integrated. Top to bottom sound and loud enough for me. I have SS monos...those make the omegas pump out crazy bass I’ve felt in my couch cushions.
No subs. How do the Omega’s do sans sub?
-
No subs. How do the Omega’s do sans sub?
40 SE Tube watts, they are a bit bass shy...I run for my Vienna acoustics or subs. Great for wife approved spls.
100 pp tube watts...just right no sub...but I have not tried subs In this rig in awhile. Will get spl comments from wife
300 watts Ss...no subs...haven’t tried it either...only do it when neighbors and wife are gone....lol. Banging bass and surprisingly good overall sound.
I need to revisit this since it’s been about year. I was pleasantly surprised, and may put a tube pre in front of them. Thought high power with high efficiency speakers was anathema, but I was pleased. My own prejudice made me go back to my pp amps...then I got my 40w SE integrated. I have had a love affair with it since the fall, but I got a wondering audiophile eye and my try some of other stablemates soon.
-
40 SE Tube watts, they are a bit bass shy...I run for my Vienna acoustics or subs. Great for wife approved spls.
100 pp tube watts...just right no sub...but I have not tried subs In this rig in awhile. Will get spl comments from wife
300 watts Ss...no subs...haven’t tried it either...only do it when neighbors and wife are gone....lol. Banging bass and surprisingly good overall sound.
I need to revisit this since it’s been about year. I was pleasantly surprised, and may put a tube pre in front of them. Thought high power with high efficiency speakers was anathema, but I was pleased. My own prejudice made me go back to my pp amps...then I got my 40w SE integrated. I have had a love affair with it since the fall, but I got a wondering audiophile eye and my try some of other stablemates soon.
So SS to thew Omega's is some banging bass huh. Do you have a picture of your speakers?
I have these Omega Super 3 HO monitors with dual RS5 drivers. I can't get much hard hitting bass out of them at all. No matter what amp I am using. So Louis is building me a pair of Super 8 HO XRS's. Dual 8" drivers. That should for sure get the job done! Throw my Golden Cherries on those and they will be putting out about 270watts per channel at 6ohms.
-
I have a question about the Omens, I owned the Tekton Lores (can play very loud and are very dynamic) and with their 10” driver crossed to the tweeter at 3000hz... the sweet spot was 6” wide. I’m wondering with the Omens crossed much higher if their sweet spot is even narrower.
I think you've hit on the one unavoidable compromise in making a large high efficiency driver handle the midrange. For many who want big dynamic range in a high efficiency speaker on a bit of a budget (which certainly has its value) the trade-off is worth it.
I think massive headroom is a real pleasure unto itself, partly because there is little sense of strain at ordinary playback levels. My feeling is that 20-25 dB of clean headroom over whatever is considered your personal "normal" listening level is necessary to achieve that.
-
Avsfan:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200792)
The solid state is in the closet, lol.
BTW, the smaller speakers in his product line are not ones I care for. Heard them at a local manufacturer who also used daedulus as their demos. I like the SAMs but yeah higher output is what I am after too. I may go Tannoy Arden in a few years.
-
I think you've hit on the one unavoidable compromise in making a large high efficiency driver handle the midrange. For many who want big dynamic range in a high efficiency speaker on a bit of a budget (which certainly has its value) the trade-off is worth it.
I think massive headroom is a real pleasure unto itself, partly because there is little sense of strain at ordinary playback levels. My feeling is that 20-25 dB of clean headroom over whatever is considered your personal "normal" listening level is necessary to achieve that.
My ZU's are in my two channel room and I am the only one in here listening. And I can roll my office chair to wherever the sweet spot is, so the issue for me is a non factor. Love having my own little area! :D
And you've hit on the subject of headroom. The more the better. I'm a car guy and I am all about displacement. Refined displacement is the key phrase. It's like having an Aston Martin DB11, 630 horsepower on tap and a top speed of 208 mph. Now are you EVER going to use all 630hp or go 208 miles per hour? Probably not. But knowing it's there to unleash at your will without any issues. And being able to easily blow by cars all day long, gracefully and in style without even breaking a sweat. That's the point of a high powered, high quality audio system being able to easily deliver massive amounts of power and dynamics when you want but for most listening sessions, just cruising and not breaking a sweat. Sounding great at low levels as well as higher levels. I don't want my system playing near it's maximum capacity. Usually speakers nor amps sound good being pushed even close to their limits. I am experiencing this right now with these tiny 4" drivers in these Omega's, they sound pretty good at moderate levels but if I push them with more complex music and louder volumes, they seem like they are yelling at me to stop, like being tortured. The ZU's at those same levels just ask for more.
-
Avsfan:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200792)
The solid state is in the closet, lol.
BTW, the smaller speakers in his product line are not ones I care for. Heard them at a local manufacturer who also used daedulus as their demos. I like the SAMs but yeah higher output is what I am after too. I may go Tannoy Arden in a few years.
And all I have ever head are his small drivers. The 4" RS5. I have realized that I am not a small driver kind of guy. The speed, transparency, imaging and soundstage is pretty impressive, but man there is absolutely no oopmh, power, muscle or authority. I am even starting to wonder if the dual 8" driver from Omega will satisfy my needs. Man I wish there was away of being able to listen to these things before purchasing.
Those Tannoy's look nice, also $8000 for a pair! Wow. More than I can ever think about spending.
-
And all I have ever head are his small drivers. The 4" RS5. I have realized that I am not a small driver kind of guy. The speed, transparency, imaging and soundstage is pretty impressive, but man there is absolutely no oopmh, power, muscle or authority. I am even starting to wonder if the dual 8" driver from Omega will satisfy my needs. Man I wish there was away of being able to listen to these things before purchasing.
Those Tannoy's look nice, also $8000 for a pair! Wow. More than I can ever think about spending.
These are speakers that are very responsive to tweaking...well most are as I've found. My rig is a giant science experiment. Except for the high spls that everyone wants, I'm pretty much there. I have to save for several years to get the Tannoys, and I'd get them if only I get a larger living space.
I think you'll be happy, and keep us posted on your SS/OMEGA blend. Funny enough, I have family near the omega facility, and I've never visited.
BTW, if you want speed, the Townshend supertweeters will add it. I have mine on the lowest setting. I bought mine direct a few years ago.
-
I think you've hit on the one unavoidable compromise in making a large high efficiency driver handle the midrange. For many who want big dynamic range in a high efficiency speaker on a bit of a budget (which certainly has its value) the trade-off is worth it.
I think massive headroom is a real pleasure unto itself, partly because there is little sense of strain at ordinary playback levels. My feeling is that 20-25 dB of clean headroom over whatever is considered your personal "normal" listening level is necessary to achieve that.
This is why I linked the Volti Razz in a previous post...1" tweeter....2" midrange...12" woofer...97db sensitivity....and 80w max power for a 113db peak at the listening position...so they have dynamic capability with minimal beaming...full disclosure, I haven't heard them but knowing the sound of Greg's other speakers, other than the $5k price, these would meet the other requirements listed.
http://voltiaudio.com/razz/ (http://voltiaudio.com/razz/)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211870)
-
The Volti would be my choice if I had $5K and a somewhat larger room. That said, it's on my radar.
-
These are speakers that are very responsive to tweaking...well most are as I've found. My rig is a giant science experiment. Except for the high spls that everyone wants, I'm pretty much there. I have to save for several years to get the Tannoys, and I'd get them if only I get a larger living space.
I think you'll be happy, and keep us posted on your SS/OMEGA blend. Funny enough, I have family near the omega facility, and I've never visited.
BTW, if you want speed, the Townshend supertweeters will add it. I have mine on the lowest setting. I bought mine direct a few years ago.
Yeah. That is a nice end game goal. I know I keep saying this is my LAST pair of speaker but I am lying! LOL. ONE DAY, I too will buy my ultimate end game speaker. If I have to take out a second mortgage then so be it. LOL
And yeah, the RS8 is the largest driver Louis offers if he puts two of them in a cabinet and makes the cabinet even bigger, I don't see why it wouldn't be able with tons of impact and authority, but be nimbel and fast at the same time.
-
The Volti would be my choice if I had $5K and a somewhat larger room. That said, it's on my radar.
I will check that out. And that's another point I wanted to bring up. What's a great speaker, that we are all talking about that works well in small to medium rooms? My main two channel room is 12x10 with 9foot ceilings.
Oh, and one last thing Mick. I didn't know you had the Freya+!
How is that going? That's my next purchase.
-
And all I have ever head are his small drivers. The 4" RS5. I have realized that I am not a small driver kind of guy. The speed, transparency, imaging and soundstage is pretty impressive, but man there is absolutely no oopmh, power, muscle or authority. I am even starting to wonder if the dual 8" driver from Omega will satisfy my needs. Man I wish there was away of being able to listen to these things before purchasing.
Those Tannoy's look nice, also $8000 for a pair! Wow. More than I can ever think about spending.
At the end of the day, if i were you, I'd be looking at big speakers with big drivers and lots of them. That's what it takes to get large scale music to play effortlessly and loud.
-
So I wonder if there is another speaker similar to our ZU's that dial it up a notch or two or a few. :D
Why can't we just be happy? It's not in our nature. Always want a little more instrument separation, that little more impact of a dual kick drum, deeper soundstage, more holographic imaging.
But I am VERY pleased with the ZU's. Maybe there isn't another speaker that will give me this much enjoyment unless I spend a significant more amount of money.
But the ZU's do it all! Primus at 100+ db peaks, check, 2Pac rattling the pictures on my wall, check, Diana Krall with her beautiful voice, check, Tom Morello's wild guitar riffs, check, Harry Connick Jr Jazz, check.
The ZU isn't a one trick pony. It does it all. And what I like about the ZU's, they are not picky with downstream electronics, nor picky with rooms or placement. They are going to sound great pretty much anywhere you place them. Now of course, the more attention you pay to room acoustics and treatment, the better electronics you pair them with, the better they get. That goes without saying. Every time I upgraded something in the chain, they got better.
The way I kind of look at it is, ZU built this speaker for the audiophile masses. People who value high quality audio but don't want to fuss with careful speaker placement nor careful system matching to make them sound good. They are turn key ready, plug and play and rock out! A speaker that does it all, two channel, home theater whatever. ZU really really hit a homerun with it. Probably the only reason they sell it 3-4 times a year. If they built it all year they would have to hire more staff.
Man, after reading my own reply, I sound like a ZU employee!
I can assure you, I am not. :D
Yes, you can advance beyond the Omen DW, but not without spending more. (quote from Captain Obvious) FWIW, I think my Heresy III's are a tad more efficient and dynamic. They don't go as low, but if supplemented with subs, it's not an issue. Bottom line is the Omen is tough to beat if one wants a great all-arounder at a shade under $1K. At this price point, my friend has both the Tekton Lore and the Omen DW. The Lore has been retired to his HT set up, while he continues to refine his dedicated audio set up around the DW. This with a cap upgrade and snubbing resistors in place. If you want more of what the DW offers in the way of dynamics and a bigger presentation, I would look at the Zu's that use 2 main 10" drivers or the Klipsch Forte III. If you wanted all that plus more refinement, probably the Volti Razz already mentioned. These all keeping it at or below the $5K mark. Above that price point, there's too many options to list.
-
This is why I linked the Volti Razz in a previous post...1" tweeter....2" midrange...12" woofer...97db sensitivity....and 80w max power for a 113db peak at the listening position...so they have dynamic capability with minimal beaming...full disclosure, I haven't heard them but knowing the sound of Greg's other speakers, other than the $5k price, these would meet the other requirements listed.
http://voltiaudio.com/razz/ (http://voltiaudio.com/razz/)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211870)
I'd love to hear these. The only two horn speakers I have experienced are Klipsch and JBL. And I HATED them both.
-
At the end of the day, if i were you, I'd be looking at big speakers with big drivers and lots of them. That's what it takes to get large scale music to play effortlessly and loud.
Once again. My philosophy is no replacement for displacement.
What I think the real challenge in audio is, getting a system like that to be an "audiophile" sounding system.
I think it's real easy to get an intimate musical sounding system with low power and small single driver speakers.
I also think it's real easy to get a loud blow your socks off, shatter the windows make your pants flap kind of system.
The real trick is getting them both together at the same time. Having that mega watt bad ass system play intimately and romantic as well. Low to moderate volumes but still retaining the detail, nuances and dynamics of the recording without having to be cranked up to get it. I think that is the biggest challenge in audio and that's what hooks me and catches my attention when I hear it at a show.
It's funny, when I walk into a room that has small speakers or drivers and the music they are playing is vocals or acoustics and everyone is smiling, I then ask them to put on something a little more demanding and play it at a higher volume and the response I get is " it's like, Umm, not really the strong suit of this speaker." And I am not knocking these type of speakers or rooms at shows or that matter. Hey, there are a need for these type of systems. Whether it be a small space, an apartment, a wife :D, or you simply like music that isn't needed to be played louder to move you. Audio is so subjective. Everyone has their own idea of what sounds good. But I would think on a whole, most of us want a well rounded system and don't just listen to one genre of music. So in that case, a well rounded system is needed, and I am telling you this right now from my own experience. The ZU Audio DW is the BEST all around speaker I have ever owned.
I am ONLY even looking because I want to move my ZU's back to the theater room.
-
I'd love to hear these. The only two horn speakers I have experienced are Klipsch and JBL. And I HATED them both.
The current August 2020 Stereophile magazine has a review plus measurements of the Volti Razz. The review should be online soon.
https://www.stereophile.com/ (https://www.stereophile.com/)
Tom Gibbs conclusion:
"The ability of Volti Audio's Razz to portray music of any genre with scale, realism, and thrilling dynamics is unmatched by any loudspeaker I've had in my system."
-
If you hated Klipsch and JBL,(assuming they were both modern versions) you heard them under the wrong circumstances or poorly set-up. When "done right", both can be excellent. That said, I'm guessing the Volti would win in the refinement category. However, one thing that can't be overlooked as one goes up the ladder seeking greater dynamics and bigger presentation is the size of the room. You'll only realize the potential of the bigger speakers in a bigger room. (Yes, I believe Captain Obvious has reappeared.)
-
That said, I'm guessing the Volti would win in the refinement category.
Maybe, maybe not. Looks like tow-in (very directional above 10,000 Hz) and amplification would be critical.
JA writes the big bass may balance out the big treble.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211874&size=huge)
-
The current August 2020 Stereophile magazine has a review plus measurements of the Volti Razz. The review should be online soon.
https://www.stereophile.com/ (https://www.stereophile.com/)
Tom Gibbs conclusion:
"The ability of Volti Audio's Razz to portray music of any genre with scale, realism, and thrilling dynamics is unmatched by any loudspeaker I've had in my system."
That's VERY encouraging. And I should re-phrase the horn comment. I've only ever heard the basic line of Klipsch speakers, not their lines in their higher end models like the Heresy. I am sure those are completely different than the Tractrix horn speakers that I've heard. I've also heard nothing but great things about the JTR's.
-
That's VERY encouraging. And I should re-phrase the horn comment. I've only ever heard the basic line of Klipsch speakers, not their lines in their higher end models like the Heresy. I am sure those are completely different than the Tractrix horn speakers that I've heard. I've also heard nothing but great things about the JTR's.
The new Heresy and new Forte are massive steps up in refinement over any prior Klipsch speaker.
-
If you hated Klipsch and JBL,(assuming they were both modern versions) you heard them under the wrong circumstances or poorly set-up. When "done right", both can be excellent. That said, I'm guessing the Volti would win in the refinement category. However, one thing that can't be overlooked as one goes up the ladder seeking greater dynamics and bigger presentation is the size of the room. You'll only realize the potential of the bigger speakers in a bigger room. (Yes, I believe Captain Obvious has reappeared.)
And I already corrected myself. But it wasn't anything of the better offerings. It was some of their other entry level stuff. But the one speaker that a lot of people have raved about, that RP-600m, I did hear that at RMAF last year and I didn't like that either. So maybe it wasn't ideal conditions. And maybe Klipsch uses different tech in their higher up lines?
-
:D that big Tekton speaker has 15 tweets ,,,,, 4500.00 ,, 125 pounds ,,,, would love to hear that beast . :D
-
The new Heresy and new Forte are massive steps up in refinement over any prior Klipsch speaker.
Yeah, I was talking more the Klipsch stuff you get at your local Best Buy. :D
-
:D that big Tekton speaker has 15 tweets ,,,,, 4500.00 ,, 125 pounds ,,,, would love to hear that beast . :D
Tekton and Eric's designs are very interesting. All those "tweets" are not actually tweeters in the sense you and I know them in, they actually are midrange drivers from what I've read.
-
Yeah, I was talking more the Klipsch stuff you get at your local Best Buy. :D
Those are pretty rough sounding.
-
Those are pretty rough sounding.
For sure. But like I said. RP-600, which was at RMAF and has gotten some good reviews, I simply was not impressed in the least bit. I REALLY want to hear the good Klipsch horns! :D
-
This is why I linked the Volti Razz in a previous post...1" tweeter....2" midrange...12" woofer...97db sensitivity....and 80w max power for a 113db peak at the listening position...so they have dynamic capability with minimal beaming...full disclosure, I haven't heard them but knowing the sound of Greg's other speakers, other than the $5k price, these would meet the other requirements listed.
http://voltiaudio.com/razz/ (http://voltiaudio.com/razz/)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211870)
They also come in Cherry!! Interesting design 🤔
-
The JBL 708P's I owned only rated down to 40 Hz, but otherwise almost fills the bill: sounded very good; dynamic; 118 dB/m maximum; controlled directivity; used a 2 inch compression tweeter and 8 inch ported woofer in a large monitor cabinet; unfortunately $4000/pair. Not well suited for an amp designer as they are active.
-
Side note update, I decided to pass on trying out the Tekton Double Impacts and pulled the trigger on trading in the JTR 110HT’s for the JTR 210HT’s (2 way with two 10” woofers in a sealed enclosure, combined with an ultra highend compression driver). I think technically these fit all the requirements (well maybe not waf, oh and they’re not full range so never mind). Ill be using them for double purpose music and movies in my small dedicated theater room.
Side side note, anybody build their own Lii 15 open baffles? Thinking about doing this as a side project.
https://www.jtrspeakers.com/jtr-noesis-210ht (https://www.jtrspeakers.com/jtr-noesis-210ht)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d5d4c671031d50001480dc0/1590701449601-B4ZQ80B9UM1F7HU7MPI2/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kNiEM88mrzHRsd1mQ3bxVct7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0s0XaMNjCqAzRibjnE_wBlkZ2axuMlPfqFLWy-3Tjp4nKScCHg1XF4aLsQJlo6oYbA/_M1B3016.jpg?format=750w)
-
NICKTENN
What is the lead time on the 210s? It would seem with the crossover at 700hz that beaming will not be problem. Being 34" tall, are they tilted back firing up to the listening position or is the horn angled in a way that the height isn't an issue?
-
NICKTENN
What is the lead time on the 210s? It would seem with the crossover at 700hz that beaming will not be problem. Being 34" tall, are they tilted back firing up to the listening position or is the horn angled in a way that the height isn't an issue?
I didn’t press Jeff on a lead time as I already know he’s swamped and he’s letting me keep the 110’s until the 210’s can ship, my guess is 1-2 months.
I plan to place the 210’s on speaker stands to raise the center of the speaker to around 37”-38” (my approximate ear level). These are considered monitor speakers, not floor standers.
-
I didn’t press Jeff on a lead time as I already know he’s swamped and he’s letting me keep the 110’s until the 210’s can ship, my guess is 1-2 months.
I plan to place the 210’s on speaker stands to raise the center of the speaker to around 37”-38” (my approximate ear level). These are considered monitor speakers, not floor standers.
Well they are only 2" shorter than my floor standing ZU's. :D
-
I didn’t press Jeff on a lead time as I already know he’s swamped and he’s letting me keep the 110’s until the 210’s can ship, my guess is 1-2 months.
I plan to place the 210’s on speaker stands to raise the center of the speaker to around 37”-38” (my approximate ear level). These are considered monitor speakers, not floor standers.
I am VERY interested in your end results. Tommy loves his JTR's. I might just keep the ZU's in here and put some JTR'S in my theater room.
-
I am VERY interested in your end results. Tommy loves his JTR's. I might just keep the ZU's in here and put some JTR'S in my theater room.
I can’t wait! My only gripe with the 110 was in order to achieve it’s 80hz rating it needs to be close to the wall (and Jeff does note this on his website) which is fine for surrounds, but not the best when using them as mains pulling double duty for movies and music. The music loses it’s imaging and sound stage when close to the wall vs pulled out a couple feet. The speakers themselves sounded great though! Awesome dynamics, clarity, etc., I just wanted a bit more low end.
These 210’s should allow me to have them off the wall a couple feet and still have enough low end to cross over easily at 80hz with my subs.
-
Maybe, maybe not. Looks like tow-in (very directional above 10,000 Hz) and amplification would be critical.
JA writes the big bass may balance out the big treble.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211874&size=huge)
Here is Mr. Roberts’ response:
“ Just thought I should address the FR anomalies that show up in the test measurements so you understand where those come from.
I am using a mid driver that also covers up into tweeter territory. I have tried and can easily make a filter that will cross-over the mid and tweet very neatly by using an inductor on 'top' of the mid.
During the development of any of my speakers, I 'bread-board' the crossovers in front of me on a table, with both speakers set up for music listening. I'm able to run test measurements and then switch over to music and play with the crossover components on the fly. It's a great way to listen to the different filter changes and then measure to see where I'm at. It's my way of doing things.
On the Razz, I found that I enjoyed the sound of the midrange better when I removed the filter from the top and just let it run into the tweeter. Every time I made this change with music playing and then ran a test measurement I could see that the measurement looked terrible. But I couldn't ignore the fact that it sounded better to me.
So I decided to go with what sounded best to me, not what measured the best.
If you're one of those people who cannot accept a speaker that measures bad, Volti Audio speakers are probably not for you. You have lots of choices out there for speakers that measure good, so you don't need to be messing around with mine.
But if you're one of those people who use your ears and listen to speakers, and appreciate the effort that designers like me put into listening during development, then you'll probably be like most people who come into my room at the audio shows and are really blown away by how great the Volti Audio speakers sound.
A company like Volti Audio doesn't last in this business if they are not making great sounding speakers that people love. I'm proud of my ten years of success in the audio business, and I plan to continue what I'm doing for many more years. I'm going to do it MY way, which is the only way I can. It's how I steer my passion into my art.
So you'll probably see a lot more bad measuring Volti Audio speakers in the future that my customers, audio reviewers, and audio show listeners absolutely love. And I'm sure you 'measurement first' guys will continue to be baffled by how it can be this way.
I'm smiling a big smile as I write this.
Trust your ears and Have Fun!
Greg Roberts
Volti Audio”
-
I had a chance to listen to the Volti Rival's at the Florida Audio show and all I can say is what I heard is effortless, musical sound...balance, textured, nuanced and captivating in every way....if the Razz is even in the same ballpark, then its worth a listen...but as he said, if measurements are your thing then look elsewhere....I did see on their website they have a you bought it you own it policy.
-
Ron,
Yup:
http://voltiaudio.com/policies/
Best,
Anand.
-
What bugs me the most about the Volti Razz review was apparently they had to set these up in a near field setup if I read Correctly. What is the point of having big speakers with a sweet spot? I think this carried over into the measurements too. I am sure some would be happy with this, but I was a bit disappointed. I d still give them a listen if I had the chance, but I’d never buy them unheard. I did that with my Omegas and I feel quite lucky, but even they took some tweaking, and they are a much smaller investment, and easier to sell if I get the urge.
-
I had a chance to listen to the Volti Rival's at the Florida Audio show and all I can say is what I heard is effortless, musical sound...balance, textured, nuanced and captivating in every way....if the Razz is even in the same ballpark, then its worth a listen...but as he said, if measurements are your thing then look elsewhere....I did see on their website they have a you bought it you own it policy.
As a manufacturer, I can’t imagine having an “all sales final” policy. That’s no way to treat a customer.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211952)
-
This guys demeanor is a little out of the ordinary to say the least.
-
As a manufacturer, I can’t imagine having an “all sales final” policy. That’s no way to treat a customer.
I can understand if all Volti speakers are custom made and slightly different, plus since there not very many places to audition customers will take advantage. Custom woodworking takes a tremendous amount of time and then if you have to refund the purchase price (i.e. work 3 weeks for free), maybe eat some shipping cost and repair damage, it's a quick way for a basically 1 man operation to go out of business.
"Volti Audio is a small company. I do all the design, nearly all the manufacturing, nearly all the marketing, and all the sales. I build 10’s of speakers a year, not hundreds or thousands."
http://voltiaudio.com/volti-audio/ (http://voltiaudio.com/volti-audio/)
I made custom doors for 39 years and shipped all over the US, they were all non-returnable. Terms were 50% down and balance on completion. The deposit was non-refundable when the job started. If the customer bailed before completion I could sell the door at a discount and not loose too much.
-
If appears we have gone off the rails a bit price wise! Were supposed to be in the $3000.00 range. And a you bought it you own it makes me laugh kind of attitude wow, never have i heard that one in all my audio years.
The Tekton line still gets my vote in my room on this survey of sorts.
-
If appears we have gone off the rails a bit price wise! Were supposed to be in the $3000.00 range. And a you bought it you own it makes me laugh kind of attitude wow, never have i heard that one in all my audio years.
The Tekton line still gets my vote in my room on this survey of sorts.
You should look at some of the Audiogon ads. Lots of all sales final.
-
You should look at some of the Audiogon ads. Lots of all sales final.
Are you talking used or new?
Funny thing is, even as a consumer, if I sold something to someone on this forum and they didn't really like it, I'd even take it back in a certain time frame as long as it wasn't damaged and they paid to ship it back. Nothing more frustrating then buying and being stuck. Believe me, I know! I have some speakers right now that I dropped $1300 on and a sub for $900 that are not being used. $2200 worth of speakers. And the speakers are new! But a tad over 30 days but about 15 days in, I was like, I really don't think I am feeling these, oh, give them time, they'll break in. I should have been more adamant about it though, Oh well. Live and learn. Audio products should be 60 days. Some are, some are even 90. 15-30 days is not enough time.
-
I've said it before and I will say it again. For $999, the ZU Audio Dirty Weekends are a steal! They are the $2250 Omens minus a few tiny upgrades.
https://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/omen-dirty-weekend-2
Here are the chart comparisons. As you can see, nothing notable between the two. AT least not in my book. If there is something you think jumps out as a "significant" difference, I'm all ears.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211956)
-
Are you talking used or new?
Funny thing is, even as a consumer, if I sold something to someone on this forum and they didn't really like it, I'd even take it back in a certain time frame as long as it wasn't damaged and they paid to ship it back. Nothing more frustrating then buying and being stuck. Believe me, I know! I have some speakers right now that I dropped $1300 on and a sub for $900 that are not being used. $2200 worth of speakers. And the speakers are new! But a tad over 30 days but about 15 days in, I was like, I really don't think I am feeling these, oh, give them time, they'll break in. I should have been more adamant about it though, Oh well. Live and learn. Audio products should be 60 days. Some are, some are even 90. 15-30 days is not enough time.
Used especially.
I’ve worked with plenty of people within that 30 day window, and you really have like a week to audition unless you
don’t have to work. You’re right it’s too Short and should be 60 days, but that’s unfair to the biz that has to move stock. I can see why the Volti guy won’t do refunds...the size of those things..what a headache. Perhaps he could offer some sort of buyback with a restock fee though.
-
Used especially.
I’ve worked with plenty of people within that 30 day window, and you really have like a week to audition unless you
don’t have to work. You’re right it’s too Short and should be 60 days, but that’s unfair to the biz that has to move stock. I can see why the Volti guy won’t do refunds...the size of those things..what a headache. Perhaps he could offer some sort of buyback with a restock fee though.
It's just a difficult situation. Supposedly speakers take 30 or more days to break in, with Magnepan's, even longer, and the speakers I got, heck, I didn't even hook them up right away, they sat in a box for two weeks. It's just a lot of money to eat. Getting off the subject though. If anyone else has suggestions that are ZUish like, other than Tekton. Chime in.
-
It's just a difficult situation. Supposedly speakers take 30 or more days to break in, with Magnepan's, even longer, and the speakers I got, heck, I didn't even hook them up right away, they sat in a box for two weeks. It's just a lot of money to eat. Getting off the subject though. If anyone else has suggestions that are ZUish like, other than Tekton. Chime in.
Surprised no one has mentioned PI speakers.
-
Surprised no one has mentioned PI speakers.
Are these kits?
-
I was referring to brand new as in the 5G horn speakers a few clicks back. Used you pony up and take your chances period. Good communication between buyer and seller a must.
My experience with Tekton was smooth and easy. I used every bit of the 60 day trial on the Enzo XL and was rewarded with this long break-in process, hell I actually went over but was in communication with Eric and his office personnel on my Upgrade to his Electron SE model.
Yes the Dirty Weekenders from Zu come in at a great price, cannot say the same with the rest of their line, as them prices skyrocket to out of sight.
-
I've owned the Zu Druid MK V's and they were great. I preferred the Druids over the Definitions and the Omen Defs which I also owned. However, my favorite speaker I have ever had were the GR Research Super V's. If I had the space to build them and the know how, I would buy one of the new GR Research models. I know this is above the budget new, but I believe I got the Druids and Super Vs for around $3000.
-
Must be something about that Utah air ...........................
-
Are these kits?
I believe you can get them built to order...prices are very reasonable. The other speaker is the crites cornscalla. Both of these are budget friendly and I am surprised they haven’t come up.
-
When you are talking about large and heave speakers like the double impacts...and you have to pay to return them...that could cost $5-600+ so you better be pretty sure you like them because packing them up and shipping them back and then meeting the return standards can be a real hassle.
Here is what Tekton says on their website..."Returned speakers must be in new condition - no signs of damage or abuse, including scratches, fingerprints, dust, etc."
So....in many cases, its cheaper to fly or drive to hear them than it is to pay for the return.
-
Surprised no one has mentioned PI speakers.
Agreed. I've heard 2Pi, 2Pis Towers, and 4Pi. They can be placement sensitive, but have lots of good science behind them at very good prices. Their downfall for the OP is that they don't go down to 20 Hz which frankly in light of the research done by Floyd Toole, Earl Geddes, and others is more of an advantage.
-
Here is the Salk policy on trials and returns....
On lower priced models with a standard finish, we offer a 30-day in-home trial period. You can feel free to return the speakers within 30 days, in new condition, for a refund in the event they do not perform to your satisfaction.
With “custom” finishes and/or more expensive speakers, this is not practical. If we only offered three or four standard finishes, it would not be a problem. But normally customers who order our higher-priced speakers want them finished to their personal taste. So if they were returned, we would have to wait until another customer wanted the exact same finish before we could recoup our costs. Unfortunately, this would not work for us.
However, in a case like this, we would work to find a new home for the speakers and process a refund once the speakers were re-sold. Our speakers normally sell quite quickly on the used market, so it would probably not take all that long.
All that said, we almost never have returns and it is unlikely that you would ever feel the need to return our speakers. The reason is quite simple: They are that good.
I think if I built expensive customer speakers that I sold internet direct and didn't want to have a return option....I would offer a $3-500 credit for anyone that came to hear the speakers at my shop and then decided to buy them...at least that way the more serious potential buyers might opt to come and hear them?
-
I believe you can get them built to order...prices are very reasonable. The other speaker is the crites cornscalla. Both of these are budget friendly and I am surprised they haven’t come up.
Yeah, I recently came across the Crites speakers and am really curious if anyone has ever heard them. Especially the Type D 2-way with the Faital wideband compression driver handling everything from treble down to 500 hz. https://critesspeakers.com/crites-speaker-style-d.html
Very impressive, and reminds me of what Clayton (Spatial) is trying to do with his latest M-Series, except not open baffle like the Spatial is.
But how does that Faital driver actually sound?
-
Agreed. I've heard 2Pi, 2Pis Towers, and 4Pi. They can be placement sensitive, but have lots of good science behind them at very good prices. Their downfall for the OP is that they don't go down to 20 Hz which frankly in light of the research done by Floyd Toole, Earl Geddes, and others is more of an advantage.
I've got a slightly different take on this. If there is one thing I've learned after many years in this hobby, it's that nothing beats a floor standing set of speakers that can provide the FULL frequency response from 20 Hz to 20 KHz. One doesn't fully realize just how much can be added to the enjoyment of all types of music when the bottom octave is faithfully reproduced. I've owned both floor standing and monitor/sub setups. I'll take the floor standing option any day, as it's much easier to get the sound right without the hassle of setting up one or two subs to integrate properly. Additionally, there is the WAF issue of more "boxes" in the room with the monitor/sub setup.
The two sets of speakers I have can both get down to 20 Hz with no issues. One set can get there easily (T+A Criterion TB 160), as it's a Transmission Line design with two 10" drivers in a large cabinet. The other are Dynaudio Focus 360 that are driven by a Devialet 400 with Speaker Active Matching (SAM). The SAM technology allows the Focus 360's to get down to 17 Hz safely. The SAM currently supports over 1,000 speakers, and is expanding all the time.
https://www.devialet.com/en-eu/expert-pro-sam-ready-speakers/dynaudio/focus-360/ (https://www.devialet.com/en-eu/expert-pro-sam-ready-speakers/dynaudio/focus-360/)
-
I've got a slightly different take on this. If there is one thing I've learned after many years in this hobby, it's that nothing beats a floor standing set of speakers that can provide the FULL frequency response from 20 Hz to 20 KHz. One doesn't fully realize just how much can be added to the enjoyment of all types of music when the bottom octave is faithfully reproduced. I've owned both floor standing and monitor/sub setups. I'll take the floor standing option any day, as it's much easier to get the sound right without the hassle of setting up one or two subs to integrate properly. Additionally, there is the WAF issue of more "boxes" in the room with the monitor/sub setup.
The two sets of speakers I have can both get down to 20 Hz with no issues. One set can get there easily (T+A Criterion TB 160), as it's a Transmission Line design with two 10" drivers in a large cabinet. The other are Dynaudio Focus 360 that are driven by a Devialet 400 with Speaker Active Matching (SAM). The SAM technology allows the Focus 360's to get down to 17 Hz safely. The SAM currently supports over 1,000 speakers, and is expanding all the time.
https://www.devialet.com/en-eu/expert-pro-sam-ready-speakers/dynaudio/focus-360/ (https://www.devialet.com/en-eu/expert-pro-sam-ready-speakers/dynaudio/focus-360/)
I was alluding to use of a swarm (3 or 4) subwoofers to address inherent in-room bass peaks/dips that no full range speaker can resolve.
-
Yes, you can advance beyond the Omen DW, but not without spending more. (quote from Captain Obvious) FWIW, I think my Heresy III's are a tad more efficient and dynamic. They don't go as low, but if supplemented with subs, it's not an issue. Bottom line is the Omen is tough to beat if one wants a great all-arounder at a shade under $1K. At this price point, my friend has both the Tekton Lore and the Omen DW. The Lore has been retired to his HT set up, while he continues to refine his dedicated audio set up around the DW. This with a cap upgrade and snubbing resistors in place. If you want more of what the DW offers in the way of dynamics and a bigger presentation, I would look at the Zu's that use 2 main 10" drivers or the Klipsch Forte III. If you wanted all that plus more refinement, probably the Volti Razz already mentioned. These all keeping it at or below the $5K mark. Above that price point, there's too many options to list.
I'm the Lore/DW friend. Yes, I find the DW at a different performance level than the Lores I have owned since 2010. I totally rebuilt the Lore crossovers with higher quality parts, re-wired with DH Labs silver hookup wire, and bypassed the binding posts. Also damped the cabinets a bit. Much cleaner sound than stock Lores. But the DW are still at another level.
I would note that I tried the DW Clarity upgrade, and it's definitely worth the money, but I then substituted Miflex KPCU caps instead of the Clarity's and could never go back to the Clarity's. Clarity's are very cost effective, but those DW tweeters just get smoother and more natural sounding the better the caps you can put on them. I see Zu now offers Jupiters as a further upgrade beyond the Clarity's. After trying the Miflex, I'd say if you're not willing to DIY, I'd recommend the Jupiters over the Clarity's, even for the extra cost.
Yes, I'm continuing to invest in other areas of my system, and am happy that the Zu will continue to grow with the rest of the system. That said, it's because I can live with the fundamental limitations that the Zu have. They're certainly not perfect. Beaming upper mids, smallish sweet spot. But with no crossover until around 10Khz, you're getting unbridled microdynamics that speakers with crossovers pretty much can't convey. And with high enough quality caps on the tweeter, you really and truly escape that "pro audio" sound completely.
I agree with the refrain on this thread that you really cannot do better for $1K. That said, if I get back to making money again after law school, I will be quite interested to hear the latest Spatial and GR Research options, which both have me salivating. And for some reason the Crites Type D and the Volti Razz are now entering my curious dreamscape.
-
I was alluding to use of a swarm (3 or 4) subwoofers to address inherent in-room bass peaks/dips that no full range speaker can resolve.
Understand, but not very practical in the normal world. Not a lot of spouses are going to be happy with large boxes all over the room. It's also not easy to get them set up correctly.
Happily, my rooms don't suffer too badly from room interaction.
-
I've got a slightly different take on this. If there is one thing I've learned after many years in this hobby, it's that nothing beats a floor standing set of speakers that can provide the FULL frequency response from 20 Hz to 20 KHz. One doesn't fully realize just how much can be added to the enjoyment of all types of music when the bottom octave is faithfully reproduced. I've owned both floor standing and monitor/sub setups. I'll take the floor standing option any day, as it's much easier to get the sound right without the hassle of setting up one or two subs to integrate properly. Additionally, there is the WAF issue of more "boxes" in the room with the monitor/sub setup.
I used to think that way also until a few years ago when I had some monitors that I really liked and added a pair of really good subs with them.
It was less imposing in my room, sounded just as good, was less expensive (in my case), and allowed a wider variety of amplifiers to choose from.
-
I used to think that way also until a few years ago when I had some monitors that I really liked and added a pair of really good subs with them.
It was less imposing in my room, sounded just as good, was less expensive (in my case), and allowed a wider variety of amplifiers to choose from.
I get where you are coming from. I'm sure with some rooms, a monitor/sub setup can work well. I had excellent monitors and subs at my previous abode, and it was working reasonably well. Getting the subs set up was a real pain in the ass.
Having said that, when I moved to my current abode, the room dimensions were quite different. The room is larger, higher ceilings. more open. Wound up selling the monitor/sub setup, as the large floor standing option wound up sounding much better in this space. There was also an issue working out where to place the sub(s) with all the additional furniture placed in the space, not to mention equipment racks and large screen TV (the spouse acceptance factor comes into play).
Luckily, a pair of large floor standing speakers was deemed acceptable. but additional subs on top of the TV/equipment rack, well.... :green:
-
I'm the Lore/DW friend. Yes, I find the DW at a different performance level than the Lores I have owned since 2010. I totally rebuilt the Lore crossovers with higher quality parts, re-wired with DH Labs silver hookup wire, and bypassed the binding posts. Also damped the cabinets a bit. Much cleaner sound than stock Lores. But the DW are still at another level.
I would note that I tried the DW Clarity upgrade, and it's definitely worth the money, but I then substituted Miflex KPCU caps instead of the Clarity's and could never go back to the Clarity's. Clarity's are very cost effective, but those DW tweeters just get smoother and more natural sounding the better the caps you can put on them. I see Zu now offers Jupiters as a further upgrade beyond the Clarity's. After trying the Miflex, I'd say if you're not willing to DIY, I'd recommend the Jupiters over the Clarity's, even for the extra cost.
Yes, I'm continuing to invest in other areas of my system, and am happy that the Zu will continue to grow with the rest of the system. That said, it's because I can live with the fundamental limitations that the Zu have. They're certainly not perfect. Beaming upper mids, smallish sweet spot. But with no crossover until around 10Khz, you're getting unbridled microdynamics that speakers with crossovers pretty much can't convey. And with high enough quality caps on the tweeter, you really and truly escape that "pro audio" sound completely.
I agree with the refrain on this thread that you really cannot do better for $1K. That said, if I get back to making money again after law school, I will be quite interested to hear the latest Spatial and GR Research options, which both have me salivating. And for some reason the Crites Type D and the Volti Razz are now entering my curious dreamscape.
The clarity cap upgrade is for sure worth it in my opinion as well. I’ve owned the normal ones and the clarity cap ones and there is a notable difference. I saw that Jupiter cap upgrade, I wonder how much more of a difference that makes? And the Miflex KPCU caps? Where do you get them and how much are they? I wonder if ZU would just do it for me?
-
Jupiter caps suck for amp usage. I had them installed in a pair of mono tube amps, and they wound up leaking like a civ. Replaced them with Mundorf silver/gold, and no more issues. They sound better as well.
-
Jupiter caps suck for amp usage. I had them installed in a pair of mono tube amps, and they wound up leaking like a civ. Replaced them with Mundorf silver/gold, and no more issues. They sound better as well.
Interesting because for years the Jupiter beeswax caps have been standard on Decware amps and I’ve never heard any issues about leaking. Which Jupiters did you have installed?
-
Interesting because for years the Jupiter beeswax caps have been standard on Decware amps and I’ve never heard any issues about leaking. Which Jupiters did you have installed?
I too would like to know. Had a Decware amp in the past with no issues.
-
Decware amps are low powered. The amps in question uses .22uf coupling caps for a pair of 8552 output tubes. In this design, a pair of 8552 puts out roughly 80 to 90 watts. They simply couldn't handle the load. Swapped them out with Mundorf. 22uf Silver/Gold caps. The amps sound immediately improved, and has had no issues since changing the caps out.
A good friend of mine who makes custom tube amps for customers also agree that Jupiter caps for power amps are a poor choice. They also have very flimsy leads that break off easily.
-
I had a 1uF Jupiter in my tube preamp where the lead broke off in shipping. So I bought a set of 2.2uF Jupiter’s to replace them both, but after a few months one of the Jupiter’s started passing DC. I have since replaced with Miflex and am a happy camper. Miflex is a different signature than the Jupiter, and Jupiter might be slightly more my sound preference, but the Miflex have their own strengths, are more cost effective, and hopefully more reliable.
FWIW, the VH Audio ODAM are now on the second set of outputs on that preamp and make the Miflex sound slow and muffled in comparison. I’m gonna put some Duelund tinned copper bypass caps on those ODAM to give them just a touch more warmth, and see how much more transparent they can get too.
I also would now like to try swapping out the ODAM for the Miflex caps in my Zu DW’s, and maybe with Duelund bypass caps too. But that’s a lower priority, as I don’t see the Miflex in the DWs as the weak link for quite some time.
Someone previously asked where I buy my caps. I shop with Soniccraft, Parts Connexion, VH Audio directly, Parts Express, and some of the other obvious big bulk online electronic parts retailers.
-
Are we talking about Jupiter copper foil caps or Jupiter HT weewax caps?
I don't know if wattage is the issue, per se, but higher power usually means higher temperature, and both Jupiters are rated to 80 degrees C only.
They should not be placed in hot areas, especially near naked tubes.
-
Mine were the copper foil.
-
I have the opportunity to pick up a pair of Vandersteen 2Ce speakers. I've heard Vandersteen speakers before, but not the 2Ce. Has anyone here heard them? Even better if anyone's heard them driven by Cherry amps.
The list price is close.... about 10% over target. I'm pretty sure they don't make them anymore.
-
Considering some of the parameters you've listed and a $3K budget, I'd give the Klipsch Heresy 4's a listen.
-
Forgot to add that there's a thorough and extremely positive review of the Heresy 4 by Steve Huff at his website. (stevehuffphoto.com)
-
Forgot to add that there's a thorough and extremely positive review of the Heresy 4 by Steve Huff at his website. (stevehuffphoto.com)
The full link:
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/klipsch-heresy-iii-speaker-review-im-floored-and-here-is-why/
-
The full link:
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/klipsch-heresy-iii-speaker-review-im-floored-and-here-is-why/
Yes, that's his Heresy III review from a few years back. The Heresy 4 review is up on his site now. FWIW, I have the Heresy III supplemented with 2 HSU subs and have no desire to upgrade. If I were starting from square one though, the Heresy 4 would be my first stop.
-
The Volti Audio Razz speaker review is online at Stereophile
https://www.stereophile.com/content/volti-audio-razz-loudspeaker (https://www.stereophile.com/content/volti-audio-razz-loudspeaker)
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/720volti.promo_.jpg)
-
Yes, that's his Heresy III review from a few years back. The Heresy 4 review is up on his site now. FWIW, I have the Heresy III supplemented with 2 HSU subs and have no desire to upgrade. If I were starting from square one though, the Heresy 4 would be my first stop.
What's the link for the new one (searched but didn't find it)?
-
https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2020/02/17/klipsh-heresy-iv-review-klipsh-steps-into-the-audiophile-realm/
-
Since we're talking about horns, Steve Guttenberg has a two part interview with Klipsch's Roy Delgado, horn designer extraordinaire, posted 7/18/2020
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9wBmplRUhaCi-aNrkfgeTg (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9wBmplRUhaCi-aNrkfgeTg)
-
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212400)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212401)
Okay, okay, just a tad over the $3000 limit. Who's counting the extra $1649? :D
I just ordered a pair. But got a smoking deal from Sean that puts is a lot closer to the $3000 mark. I got B-Stock prices on some Hickory, Rustic Black cabinets that had the slightest scratch on one side that you really can't even notice. He had to hit the picture in the right light and angle just to get it to show up. Of course all drivers and wiring will be brand new, just the one cabinet got scratched while being finished. He took $949 off the price just for that! So $3700 for these speakers. Easily the most I have ever spent on any piece of audio equipment but I am just doing it and not looking back. Everything about this speaker is ridiculous. And from the people I have talked to that have heard them said that if I love the Dirty Weekends, well get ready to be absolutely blown away.
-
I wanted to briefly chime in on the break-in process on my Tekton Electron SE speakers. These came around alot faster than my Enzo XLs did. Although I enjoyed their process, these SE are sounding super sweet now, and really do show the difference in price between the two. Not rushing them tho ..... its simply a hours of time with music to get everything stretched and loosened up that makes the difference. How can anyone listen to a brand new pair of speakers, and then after a few hours decide they dont care for them ??
These my friends are keepers and the finest speakers I"ve owned to date! At the $3000.00 price point this thread was started upon do not think can be beat. More to come once they are properly set-up and settled.
-
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212400)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212401)
Okay, okay, just a tad over the $3000 limit. Who's counting the extra $1649? :D
I just ordered a pair. But got a smoking deal from Sean that puts is a lot closer to the $3000 mark. I got B-Stock prices on some Hickory, Rustic Black cabinets that had the slightest scratch on one side that you really can't even notice. He had to hit the picture in the right light and angle just to get it to show up. Of course all drivers and wiring will be brand new, just the one cabinet got scratched while being finished. He took $949 off the price just for that! So $3700 for these speakers. Easily the most I have ever spent on any piece of audio equipment but I am just doing it and not looking back. Everything about this speaker is ridiculous. And from the people I have talked to that have heard them said that if I love the Dirty Weekends, well get ready to be absolutely blown away.
Did you receive your new speakers?
-
Listening to them now .....
-
Did you receive your new speakers?
Soon but not yet. :D
-
Listening to them now .....
So you got new speakers too?
-
Speaker preference is so subjective...
So all I can say is that for my taste, it would be the Magnepan 1.7i with several hundred dollars back in my pocket.
-
Speaker preference is so subjective...
So all I can say is that for my taste, it would be the Magnepan 1.7i with several hundred dollars back in my pocket.
Got some here....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213642)
Cherry Amplifiers driving JTR, Dynaudio, Magnepan, and Vandersteen speakers.
-
All at once?! Your amps are Amazing!!!
-
Got some here....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213642)
Cherry Amplifiers driving JTR, Dynaudio, Magnepan, and Vandersteen speakers.
yes, I would say you do !! :D
-
I got my Janszen zA2.1 used for close to the requested price. They play loud and clean. Both the manual and REG at TheAbsoluteSound warn against turning the volume up too much because the usual cues for "playing too loud" (distortion) do not happen with these.
The standmounted version (Carmelitas): Peak SPL -- 105 dB (pair playing music at 4 m [13'] in mid-sized room -- 4.5 m x 7.3 m x 3.0 m (15' x 24' x 10')
Floorstanders: Peak SPL -- 108 dB (pair playing music at 4 m [13'] in mid-sized room -- 4.5 m x 7.3 m x 3.0 m (15' x 24' x 10')
https://janszenaudio.com/pages/specs-valentina-p8
I measured them to be reasonably flat to 20Hz with REW in my room.
oh, btw, love Pine Tree Audio (mentioned earlier). Got gorgeous power cables and speaker cables from them. Speaker cables even got thumbs up from better-half. Both cables seemed to make a difference in terms of tightness of audio images. Since my previous cables where dumpster-diver brand, I'll take the perceived improvement :-D
-
Got some here....
I'm in your town so feel free to bring some Cherries over to give a listen to my Janszens. If you blow them up, you'll need to buy me new ones :-)
-
I got my Janszen zA2.1 used for close to the requested price. They play loud and clean. Both the manual and REG at TheAbsoluteSound warn against turning the volume up too much because the usual cues for "playing too loud" (distortion) do not happen with these.
The standmounted version (Carmelitas): Peak SPL -- 105 dB (pair playing music at 4 m [13'] in mid-sized room -- 4.5 m x 7.3 m x 3.0 m (15' x 24' x 10')
Floorstanders: Peak SPL -- 108 dB (pair playing music at 4 m [13'] in mid-sized room -- 4.5 m x 7.3 m x 3.0 m (15' x 24' x 10')
https://janszenaudio.com/pages/specs-valentina-p8
I measured them to be reasonably flat to 20Hz with REW in my room.
oh, btw, love Pine Tree Audio (mentioned earlier). Got gorgeous power cables and speaker cables from them. Speaker cables even got thumbs up from better-half. Both cables seemed to make a difference in terms of tightness of audio images. Since my previous cables where dumpster-diver brand, I'll take the perceived improvement :-D
Good to hear you measured with REW. I'm a big fan!
Was the measured SPL C-wt, A-wt, or other? Did you use REW to measure SPL or another device?
-
Good to hear you measured with REW. I'm a big fan!
Was the measured SPL C-wt, A-wt, or other? Did you use REW to measure SPL or another device?
I have a calibrated UMIK so I can use REW directly.
Those measurements I posted were from the manufacturer's site. I can do my own if you're interested? Not til the weekend.