AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: audiowhore on 8 May 2011, 03:28 am
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Any thoughts of Omega's with first watt...I have had a j2 for about 10 days...IAM LOVING IT!
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Sorry--I don't have any experience on my own. But I am curious to hear your listening impressions. (Hint.)
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The First Watt J2 is one of the finest amplifiers I've ever heard. It's speed and ability to render inner detail, without sounding sterile and unnatural is as good as an OTL.
In my system at the time, it was slightly, ever so slightly fatiguing, which I do not believe will be an issue paired with Omega speakers. While I do not own a J2, I was so impressed with it during its stay with me that I remain enamored and enthusiastic more than a year later.
I don't think you could do much better than the J2. And the Omega pairing should work out splendidly.
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I also use a J2 with the Super 6 monitors, an great combination. Could you please advise what preamp, interconnect & speaker cables you are using? I use as Rothwell Indus SE passive preamp and am still searching for optimum interconnects & speaker cables.
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I have a audio research Ls17 preamp ..The cables I'm using are Audience au24e .I find that Audience is a great match with Omega speakers.
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Get interconnects and speaker cables from Blue Jeans and stop obsessing over what is primarily attributable to placebo effect.
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I have been living with a pair of Omega Super 6 Alnicos for several months. I bought them used from Audiogon however they arrived with one bad driver. Luckily the seller was understanding and Louis even more so. I ended up replacing both drivers with newer ones which are now really starting to hit their stride. I listen to digital files via JRiver from a small headless PC connected to my Wyred4Sound DAC2SE-DSD. Silver Sonic cables go to my current amp, a First Watt J2. BlueJean speaker cables go to the wonderful Omegas.
Until a couple of weeks ago my amps were a Leben 300XS EL84 PP amp and a ClassD Audio 100w class D amp. Both of these amps sound great with the Omegas in their own way. The Leben has tube magic and is particularly good at rhythm and pace. The music has life. The ClassD Audio amp beats it at detail, soundstage, and bass. I found myself becoming lost in the music although it did not have the tone or richness of the tube amp. There was always a trade-off between the two: tube soul or remarkable detail.
About this same time I took the plunge to update my W4S DAC2 to the DSD capable and parts upgraded version. Big difference. Huge difference. Better right out of the box. Still getting better as it logs some hours.
Now to the point. A couple of weeks ago I decided to buy a Pass Labs First Watt J2. This is a single ended 25 watt pure class A j-fet amp made by Nelson Pass. I was enamored by the write-ups online, especially on 6Moons so I decided I would buy it and then sell whichever of my amps was the lesser. Sound familiar?
OMG. This is most certainly my dream amp. It seems to combine the best of solid state and tube-like attributes. It has remarkable detail, beautiful tone, and is in no way fatiguing. It seems to mate perfectly with the single driver crossover-less Omegas. The highest compliment that I can make is that I now just want to listen to music rather than fussing over the equipment or planning the next purchase. The Omegas disappear and then you just have music…
I highly recommend the First Watt J2 with the Omegas.
Thanks Louis for your wonderful speakers which have brought me so much enjoyment.
PS. One of the cheapest tweaks you can make if you have your speakers on each side of your TV is to cover it with a heavy blanket when listening to music. It makes a BIG difference!
I call this picture Victory and de Feet... 8)
Best,
Paul
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=90821)
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Nice, that amp sounds like a great match for the 6" alnicos!
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Beautiful setup ... I've heard great things about First Watt ~ I'm really interested in hearing in his latest SIT offerings ... after reading the 6 moons review on Pass' SIT-1 and SIT-2 amps you would think they were the best thing since sliced bread. :D
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I have an Aleph J that I use with my Omega Multi-Points (Two 4 1/2" inch drivers in a Bi-Pole configuration).
The timing on a full range driver speaker is always wonderful, and the Omega's certainly excel at this.
The tone, however, is what sets Omega apart. The Omega drivers are capable of beautiful tone,
and when coupled with an Amplifier operating in Class A; Tube or Solid State, the beauty of the tone produced
will literally take your breath away.
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ZLS,
Great post. Every Omega speaker I have heard have been masters at imaging, PRAT, speed, detail, etc. But the tonal balance of Louis' speakers will, as you say, take your breath away.
90% of the music takes place in the all important midrange and here Omega nails it - such a wide open sound.
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90% of the music takes place in the all important midrange.......
If my speakers only had a midrange driver I would only be 33% satisfied, I like each 1/3 equally well.
Speakers that limit extension on both ends (amps also) force the listener to focus on the midrange, kinda like looking at 1/3 of a painting, of course you are going to see more detail in that part.
Fortunately Omega speakers give all of the benefits of single drivers with few, if any, of the drawbacks. :thumb:
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I hope I was not misunderstood. Omegas nail the midrange, but definitely not at the expense of top end or bottom end. They nail top and bottom equally well too. I would love to hear mine on a First Watt J2. Although I am quite entrenched in the single ended tube amp camp, the First Watt amps have intrigued me. Another amp that looks really interesting is the Redgum RGi35 and RGi60.
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I too have been very interested in the synergy of the First Watt amps and Omega and other single driver speakers. I had a conversation recently with Mark at Reno HiFi about the J2 and J3. He asked about my speakers and the amp I was presently using. Currently I have a full range open baffle (TB 1808) with the Vista EL 84 integrated. I have cabinets in the making that will employ either the (2) 5" (bi-polar) or 8" Omega DIY drivers. Reno's recommendation was the M2 - being smoother and not as analytically sounding.
Has anyone had any experience with the M2?
John
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I too have been very interested in the synergy of the First Watt amps and Omega and other single driver speakers. I had a conversation recently with Mark at Reno HiFi about the J2 and J3. He asked about my speakers and the amp I was presently using. Currently I have a full range open baffle (TB 1808) with the Vista EL 84 integrated. I have cabinets in the making that will employ either the (2) 5" (bi-polar) or 8" Omega DIY drivers. Reno's recommendation was the M2 - being smoother and not as analytically sounding.
Has anyone had any experience with the M2?
John
I've been listening to my M2 on a set of 89db sensitive (6ohm nominal) 2.5 way towers for a couple of months now. It is really really nice. It is quite detailed and transparent, but engaging and easy to listen to / listen into. I like it A LOT. Despite the 6 Moons review (loving the F5 best), my feeling is that the M2 probably has the most easily likeable / most inviting character, while also being perhaps the most versatile (both in terms of sound signature and power) of the compared trio (F5, J2, M2). Mark at Reno won't steer you wrong. I'm actually upgrading to the XA30.5 as I need a little more grunt for my KEF LS50's. The M2 does well with the KEF's but starts sounding a little strained in the mids and the bass is not as well controlled as when paired with my more sensitive towers. No real surprise there. The KEFs are much more difficult to drive even though I don't listen at high volumes. I'd keep the M2, but don't really see much reason to keep 2 similar (Class A solid state) amps in my system, so I'm going with tubes on the towers (currently an excellent CJ MV-60).
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How does the F3 compare to the M2 First watt amps ? i am using a Decware CSP3 pre with a TBI Millenia right now. I also am looking at the Decware 2 watt amp. Millenia isnt bad but there is a hum which is sometimes annoying and was wondering if any of the other amps provide a noticable upgrade worth the expense ?
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How does the F3 compare to the M2 First watt amps ? i am using a Decware CSP3 pre with a TBI Millenia right now. I also am looking at the Decware 2 watt amp. Millenia isnt bad but there is a hum which is sometimes annoying and was wondering if any of the other amps provide a noticable upgrade worth the expense ?
Is your hum from the amp or abberations from the power source? Does it change if you move to a different room/city or try it late night, early mornings, weekends, or holidays? I attended a DecFest years ago and Steve had the same problem (old electrical grid in his neigborhood and the crud disappeared when the nearby light industries shut down for the night). In my experience power abberations appear with no obvious rhyme or reason.
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sugbob, can you try the amp on battery power and see if there is still a hum? Also you can move all your components to plug into the same outlet to avoid possible ground loops caused by using 2 different circuits... it's not likely the amp is causing the hum.
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i had the volume on the Millenia completely opened up.....backed it off a little and the hum disappeared . also switched power supply from the one included to a King Rex. hum no longer an issue ....which brings me back to my question of First Watt amps , Decware or just stay as is with Millenia.....is there a worthy upgrade hear or just different presentation of the music ?
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I think a stock decware may not be as good az the tbi. My set was better but it uses much higher end parts vs the decware... and even then it was uncomfortably close. I also appreciated the extra power the tbi has.
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I think a stock decware may not be as good az the tbi. My set was better but it uses much higher end parts vs the decware... and even then it was uncomfortably close. I also appreciated the extra power the tbi has.
DaveC113,
What version of Decware did you have? The SE84 has seen two upgrades in the last five years, not to mention they can be upgraded with V-Caps and stepped attenuator. I have had the SE84C+, SE84CCE Select with V-Caps and stepped att., and currently have the latest Select with V-Caps and stepped att., sans meters. Each model progressively better than the previous. Being that sugbob21 already has a CSP3, I think it would be a no brainer to go with the matching Decware amp, and compare it toe to toe with the TBI.
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Rob, I agree that would be very interesting. But if the Decware isn't better than the TBI it might be a financial issue.
I do not have a Decware, but I have an EL34 SET that uses very high end parts. It has Clarity TC caps in the power supply, no coupling cap, James OPTs. The TBI was pretty close in performance when I had it here and since then it has seen upgrades. If the Decware was built with high end parts it could possibly be better than the TBI but I wouldn't count on it. I also really don't think 2 watts is enough for any of the Omega models. My amp starts clipping at near 6 watts and it's really not enough power. The TBI has something like 35 watts and it makes a big difference at higher volumes.
I think it'll probably come down to personal preference rather than one amp being clearly better than the other...
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Dave,
You are absolutely right, it will come down to personal preference - thats what this whole hobby is about, and why there are so many options available. Also, what volume levels, what music, near, medium, or far field, room acoustics and size, etc., etc. Personally, I have never heard a better amp on Omega speakers than a flea powered single tube per output SET or SEP tube amp. I was converted to Omega on a very good solid state amp (Audio Zone Amp STi), but when I switched to the Decware in the same system, I never could wrap my head around solid state after that. Omega is an incredible speaker in their own right, and so is the Decware SE84 amp, but put the two together and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Sadly the the 6N15N-EB tube that Steve ships with his SE84, and the EL84 tube are mostly considered beneath the larger more expensive tubes, which in my opinion is a sad oversight. When matched with the right speakers (particularly the latest Omegas) those tubes are hard to beat for my ears.
Concerning the Decware having enough power for the Omegas: Several years ago when I had my SE84C+ with HempCone Super 5XRS, Super 5 Monitors and Super 3i Monitors I felt the amp had barely enough power to run them without a sub (unless on the desktop for the Super 3i), but with a DeepHemp sub it was terrific. With the new RS5 Super 3XRS my latest Decware Select never goes beyond 12 o'clock, everything is so much more effortless all around with plenty of volume. I listen in a large room with my ears about 8 feet from the speakers.
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thanks for the replies! Financially right now i could'nt just get a Decware without selling some gear first. i would love to try them up against each other but unless its a major sort of knock your socks off upgrade not sure its worth it . From what you guys are saying it sounds like it won't be . Just a matter of what sound i like better. Right now i am going to stick with the Decware pre and TBI . i have no major issues with the sound . I am using your interconnects by the way Dave ,,,they sound great.
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Hi audiowhore,
Great topic and really great amps. Pass amps are among the finest out there and Nelson is one of the best out there in Audio.
I while back and before some of his latest First Watt amps he had tried some Omega and came up with the Aleph J as a great combo.
Hi doggie,
Many thanks for your great post and review of your system.
It was a pleasure working with you too and I'm happy we were able to get the drivers sorted out. You sure got the right amp and right now it's on my short list too. I'm very happy to have been a part of getting past the equipment and listening to music. Many thanks for all your kind words.
Thanks again,
Louis
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If single drivers could get me where I need to be there is no doubt I would have an F1. I have used F1, F3,F4 and F5.
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I am getting an offer to buy this used: http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=50
Looks like a solid SET amplifier which should be a good match to my RS5 drivers. Thoughts?
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I am getting an offer to buy this used: http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=50
Looks like a solid SET amplifier which should be a good match to my RS5 drivers. Thoughts?
I have experience with this amp with Axiom M22V3's and Beyer T1 phones. Excellent build quality and performance. If you can get for less than $300 I wouldn't hesitate one nano second.
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...
Now to the point. A couple of weeks ago I decided to buy a Pass Labs First Watt J2. This is a single ended 25 watt pure class A j-fet amp made by Nelson Pass. I was enamored by the write-ups online, especially on 6Moons so I decided I would buy it and then sell whichever of my amps was the lesser. Sound familiar?
OMG. This is most certainly my dream amp. It seems to combine the best of solid state and tube-like attributes. It has remarkable detail, beautiful tone, and is in no way fatiguing. It seems to mate perfectly with the single driver crossover-less Omegas. The highest compliment that I can make is that I now just want to listen to music rather than fussing over the equipment or planning the next purchase. The Omegas disappear and then you just have music…
I highly recommend the First Watt J2 with the Omegas.
Hi Paul, can you tell me what preamp you're using with the J2?
Thanks!
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I have experience with this amp with Axiom M22V3's and Beyer T1 phones. Excellent build quality and performance. If you can get for less than $300 I wouldn't hesitate one nano second.
Sadly I was too wishy washy and he decided not to sell it.
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Hi Paul, can you tell me what preamp you're using with the J2?
Thanks!
I am using a Wyred for Sound DAC2 DSD SE. This is their Saber based DAC that supports DSD. It has a remote volume control and a fairly high output so works well as a pre. It also makes for a simple setup with a lot of convenience. I wish that it had a tad less gain so that I could keep the volume setting just a bit higher in what others have described as it's sweet spot. Having said this however it sounds great and my wish is just normal audiophiliac obsessiveness...
At some point I would really like to hear a First Watt SIT2 as I am a big fan of SET tube magic...
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I am using a Wyred for Sound DAC2 DSD SE. This is their Saber based DAC that supports DSD. It has a remote volume control and a fairly high output so works well as a pre. It also makes for a simple setup with a lot of convenience. I wish that it had a tad less gain so that I could keep the volume setting just a bit higher in what others have described as it's sweet spot. Having said this however it sounds great and my wish is just normal audiophiliac obsessiveness...
At some point I would really like to hear a First Watt SIT2 as I am a big fan of SET tube magic...
Thanks, sounds like a great setup! I've heard their Preamp (STP-SE) is quite special as well. The SIT amp sound like they're pretty special, I would love to hear one that's for sure!
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I know this is an old thread but...
Another member was asking about the ideal preamp to mate with the FIRST WATT J2.
I just wanted to say that I jun the FIRST WATT J2 - into a bunch of different speakers and it is simply stunning in all respects.
I use the TRANSCENDENT SOUND GROUNDED GRID (GGP) tubed preamp, with great success. The introduction of tubes into the chain of events helps the J2 to render a terrifically tangible 3D sense of space in my system.
Also, the combination of the J2 voltage gain of 18dB (RCA) plus the GGP fixed voltage gain of 12dB is absolutely ideal for most real world speakers. I get to use most of my ALPS Blue Velvet (50K) volume pot from silence to max - with plenty of range in between.
Best of all, the GGP - like the J2 - is virtually flat to 100kHz, so those of us that use super-tweeters (25kHz+) are treated to some of the sweetest, extended and most airy highs in the business.
Very hard to beat!
I would like to try OMEGA speakers in my system and invite other member of AC to make their best recommendations.
My listing priorities are: -
High frequency extension
Coherence
Truth-of-timber
Dynamics - especially at low-level listening
Midrange flesh and blood
Bass to 40Hz-50Hz is more than adequate for me, as long as it is tight and fast, without bloat and overhang. (I'm no base fiend...)
Able to rock the house on any genre of music
A lot to ask, especially when I need high impedance load and high efficiency.
What does the panel think? Which OMEGA model will serve me best?
Appreciated.
:green:
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Can't go wrong with these:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153221)
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I can second Milford3's recommendation. I have their big brother the Super Alnico High Output speakers. They are floorstanders. I previously had a pair of Super 6 Alnico floorstanders. Louis's newest iteration surpasses the previous model by offering 99db efficiency with the same excellent clarity of the Alnico drivers. It has a bigger soundstage with excellent localization of instruments.
I have a First Watt SIT2 amp which has 10 watts. That is plenty in my 15 x 20 listening space. My tube preamp is custom made and uses an 80 year old 301A(01A) directly heated triode with transformer output. I really recommend the combination of a good tube preamp with a SS amp.
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Can't go wrong with these:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153221)
Yeah; I'm toying with the idea...of getting a pair! And FW would likely be my choice to drive them.
Follow the raves, of the J2; or get power (and save $$$), with an M2?? :?
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J2 and M2 are very different from each other. Both great amps and highly resolving, but their "flavors" are almost opposites in the Pass house sound. The J2 was designed for single driver speakers, and something to note is that Stereophile found the J2 to be less happy with speakers that are 4 ohm nominal (which the High Output Omegas are). Yes, I've owned both and preferred the J2. I'm still fond of it, though I no longer have it. I'd recommend it to anyone with standard, single driver, Omegas. High Output Omegas or other less efficient speakers would likely be more of a YMMV thing, depending on listening habits, room size, etc etc.
I've owned the Aleph 30, M2, J2, F5, XA30.5, XA30.8, INT-150, and currently the F7. Yes, I'm hooked on Pass amps and Mark at Reno HiFi makes the process of buying /trying/trading very easy and fun. Great guy too!
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Wow, RDavidson, that's an amazing set of amplifiers that have passed through your house. If I may request, would you put together some comments/comparison on this sequence of Pass/First Watt amps? I imagine it would take a separate thread so as not to hijack this one. I'm sure there are many on AC that would like to know your thoughts on these amps, pros and cons. You are in a unique position to have demoed all of these in your home rig, so we would really appreciate your assessment. In particular, I am curious about your thoughts on the XA30.5 vs. the XA30.8.
Thanks, -dB
J2 and M2 are very different from each other. Both great amps and highly resolving, but their "flavors" are almost opposites in the Pass house sound. The J2 was designed for single driver speakers, and something to note is that Stereophile found the J2 to be less happy with speakers that are 4 ohm nominal (which the High Output Omegas are). Yes, I've owned both and preferred the J2. I'm still fond of it, though I no longer have it. I'd recommend it to anyone with standard, single driver, Omegas. High Output Omegas or other less efficient speakers would likely be more of a YMMV thing, depending on listening habits, room size, etc etc.
I've owned the Aleph 30, M2, J2, F5, XA30.5, XA30.8, INT-150, and currently the F7. Yes, I'm hooked on Pass amps and Mark at Reno HiFi makes the process of buying /trying/trading very easy and fun. Great guy too!
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Wow, RDavidson, that's an amazing set of amplifiers that have passed through your house. If I may request, would you put together some comments/comparison on this sequence of Pass/First Watt amps? I imagine it would take a separate thread so as not to hijack this one. I'm sure there are many on AC that would like to know your thoughts on these amps, pros and cons. You are in a unique position to have demoed all of these in your home rig, so we would really appreciate your assessment. In particular, I am curious about your thoughts on the XA30.5 vs. the XA30.8.
Thanks, -dB
Yeah. That would take quite a bit of writing...which I have much less time these days to do, unfortunately. I can probably provide comment here and there on an individual basis a little easier.
So to sort of quickly answer your question : I personally find the purity and resolution of the First Watt line to have overall better synergy with Omegas. I think there's MUCH to be said about combining "simple" amplifier circuits with "simple" speakers. Note, I use the word "simple" in the most complimentary way I know of. There's lots of complexity involved in making things simple. I mean, if Omegas or First Watt (or others like Decware Zen, and other SETs) were made much simpler, they wouldn't be very functional. I think it's this simplicity that allows the real magic to happen which big, complex, systems struggle with. It's horses for courses and big, complex, systems have their place too.
So, in general terms, I prefer FW over Pass with Omegas. With that said, the XA30.8 has A LOT of the purity and resolution of the FW line, so I prefer it (to the 30.5). It also has HUGE bass. In fact, the bass and how big the sound was, was the first thing I noticed when going from the 30.5 to the 30.8. The 30.8 really is an engineering masterpiece. It's big, has more circuitry, runs hotter than all Pass/FW amps I've owned and yet retains the "simple," natural, fleshy, resolving, FW sound AND has much more grunt to drive less simple speakers. That's pretty amazing. I can easily see why some feel it is an ideal amp and maybe one of the very best on the planet. The 30.5 is certainly no slouch, but it is maybe just a step removed from the purity and resolution obtained from the FW amps and 30.8. But we're talking about a Ferrari that's like 9 years old vs a Ferrari that is 2-3 years old. They both do the same thing. They both have high performance. They're both fantastic in their own ways. But the newer one is more refined and more powerful and more luxurious.
Now...with the big Pass amps, there's one caveat in my experience (when paired to Omegas). With all that circuitry, I think there's opportunity for more noise. Depending on how close you sit to your system, this may be more or less a problem. I sit pretty nearfield (typically 6-8 ft from my speakers) so I don't have to worry about room reflections quite as much. But, the drawback is that I also hear more noise. I've read others express this problem. In more extreme cases, guys were running giant 101db+ sensitive horns and only found noise to be a minor problem. So.....again YMMV. Noise will always be a problem (to some extent) for fans of single driver and high efficiency speaker systems. I think that's understood and not a knock on Pass amps or high efficiency speakers. However, I have always found FW amps to be quieter than their Pass counterparts ; Just something to consider.
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Take this for what it's worth, but Stereophile picked the J2 as their "2016 Amplification Component of the Year".
http://www.stereophile.com/content/stereophiles-products-2016-amplification-component-year (http://www.stereophile.com/content/stereophiles-products-2016-amplification-component-year)
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RDavidson, given that (almost) all of the FW amps are single ended, were you running the Pass amps that way as well, or via the balanced connections? Running them balanced may very well reduce the noise to which you refer, depending on what elements in the rest of your system are fully differential, among other things.
(I'd love to try some of the FW amps, including the SIT amps and the new F7, but I've built my system to be fully differential from DAC to amp - including even my Pass XVR-1 crossover - so I'd likely be putting the SE amps at a disadvantage.)
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RDavidson, given that (almost) all of the FW amps are single ended, were you running the Pass amps that way as well, or via the balanced connections? Running them balanced may very well reduce the noise to which you refer, depending on what elements in the rest of your system are fully differential, among other things.
(I'd love to try some of the FW amps, including the SIT amps and the new F7, but I've built my system to be fully differential from DAC to amp - including even my Pass XVR-1 crossover - so I'd likely be putting the SE amps at a disadvantage.)
The noise had nothing to do with the connection scheme AT ALL. Trust me. I tried fully differential balanced from source all the way to amp. At one time I also had a Bent AVC 1, which if I understand correctly, electrically isolates the amp and source ground from each other by nature of the autoformers. Trying different preamps and connections weren't attempts to get rid of noise. I was just trying different gear and having fun. Note, I also tested for noise by simply turning on my amps (with speakers hooked up) while leaving everything else off. I still got noise (mostly a light buzz / hum).
Keep in mind Pass amps have quite a bit of hardware (MASSIVE power supplies). This is especially true of the .8 series. I don't think it is a coincidence that the XA30.8 was probably the most noisy of all. With speakers with crossover networks and lower sensitivity (like KEF LS50's, which I also owned but not at the time I had the XA30.8 ) noise is less of an issue. Crossover components attenuate some noise and the drivers' themselves will also attenuate some.....which also means they're attenuating what could be important musical content. This brings up another point. Pass amps are direct coupled (ie no coupling caps in the signal path). Other manufacturers put caps in the output stage to attenuate noise and also offer DC protection. Pass doesn't do this, preferring to keep the signal path as clear as possible.
So...nothing is perfect and there are always tradeoffs (both technically and artistically). If you understand the tradeoffs, then they aren't necessarily "problems" as much as they are merely things for careful consideration when choosing your path to listening enjoyment.
Question : Why box yourself into only using fully balanced components? I used to think fully balanced was THE way to go, but later found that I could get as good, if not better sound by keeping things electrically simpler and going single ended. It certainly opened doors to trying some great gear, including more First Watt amps. Give it a try. You may surprise yourself....unless your system is setup in a recording studio or similar environment where EMI and RFI can be a real issue.
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The J2 has easily been the best piece of audio gear that I've purchased since my Omegas. I've been using a w4s mPre preamp so far, but I'm getting the itch for a different preamp.
I was planning on trying the new Schiit Freya so I could compare passive, ss and tube modes. However, I'm now considering a used (albeit more expensive) Audio Research LS17 SE Preamp. Does anyone here have experience matching an ARC pre with First Watt amps and/or Omega Speakers? The other route I've been considering is a Tortuga LDR Pre for.the remote and a Decware ZSTAGE for the tube magic.
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I once owned the LS-12 and LS-25. I was content for a year or so but the hardness in the macro dynamics was getting to me. Surprisingly it was in the midrange on both units. I have McCormack amps revised by SMC. Had a long discussion with Steve McCormack about my struggles with pre amp/line stages. So I bought an MLD ( McCormack line drive ) SMC revised it to the Platinum + level. The unit is not much to look at but man can it sing. Since then I bought a McCormack TLC ( Transparent line controller ). This unit is not only nice looking but sings even better than the MLD. Highly recommend you check there web sight and give SMC a call.
If you prefer to have tubes check out K@K Audio. Kevin is coming out with a new line stage.
I bought the K@K Maxxed Out phono stage. It was no contest. Beat my ARC PH3-SE in every way.
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Thanks, that's very helpful... ARC seems to have a "House Sound" attributed to their gear. There is an ARC dealer about an hour from here, but I don't remember them actually stocking their gear. I'd definitely want to demo an ARC pre before paying up for one. I'll keep an eye open for McCormack preamps.
The Pass Labs X-1 preamp got my attention this morning, so there is no shortage of possibilities to research :)
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Just to be clear McCormack gear is good value, that can be turned into exceptional gear when revised by SMC. SMC is very serious with their circuits and parts selection. The same is true with K@K Audio . The money goes into the electronics not eye candy hardware unless the customer wants it.
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Thanks, that's very helpful... ARC seems to have a "House Sound" attributed to their gear. There is an ARC dealer about an hour from here, but I don't remember them actually stocking their gear. I'd definitely want to demo an ARC pre before paying up for one. I'll keep an eye open for McCormack preamps.
The Pass Labs X-1 preamp got my attention this morning, so there is no shortage of possibilities to research :)
I will add another one to your list. Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL 2. Sounded wonderful with my SIT2 and my Omegas...and even better now with my LTA-10 EL84 based amp.
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I once owned the LS-12 and LS-25. I was content for a year or so but the hardness in the macro dynamics was getting to me. Surprisingly it was in the midrange on both units. I have McCormack amps revised by SMC. Had a long discussion with Steve McCormack about my struggles with pre amp/line stages. So I bought an MLD ( McCormack line drive ) SMC revised it to the Platinum + level. The unit is not much to look at but man can it sing. Since then I bought a McCormack TLC ( Transparent line controller ). This unit is not only nice looking but sings even better than the MLD. Highly recommend you check there web sight and give SMC a call.
If you prefer to have tubes check out K@K Audio. Kevin is coming out with a new line stage.
I bought the K@K Maxxed Out phono stage. It was no contest. Beat my ARC PH3-SE in every way.
saygrr - Do you happen to have any experience with McCormack's LD-2 preamp? I'm guessing this is the last / latest preamp that was made by McCormack Audio, but there isn't much information floating around on the interwebs about it.
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I am not familiar with the RLD-2. You are correct the RLD-2 came out after the RLD-1 which SMC will work on. When I chose the MLD Steve encouraged me to. They were very excited with this unit after they completed their first one. They were surprised with the results. Then when they did the TLC-1 it turned out even more impressive. I no longer have the MLD. The TLC-1 is unlikely to leave my system. The RLD-1 they work on but have not heard much about it which tells me the MLD and TLC-1 is the direction to go if doing business with SMC.
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I will pop this post in here since we are talking about First Watt and Omegas.
I just finished a build of the Pass ACA "Amp Camp Amp". the diyAudio store has kits for pretty cheap. They are a pair of all Class A 8w monoblocs with a very simple circuit designed by Nelson Pass. The kit comes with cheap 19v switching power supplies (like for powering a laptop). On the build thread, there was talk that upping the DC voltage to 24v was an improvement, and it was even with cheap 24v switchers. I was enamoured enough with the sound to order a pair of linear, torroidal power supplies in nice metal cases with heat sinks. Sure enough, even better. To my suprise, these became keepers rather than a fun experiment. But I now had four chassis. So I did a build based on the power supply chassis to accommodate the amp stage (a small board). Added a heat sink on the top and used poplar wood stained ebony for the modified chassis shape and size.
I imagine this is a flavor of what First Watt offers and I may have to try the J2 at some point. For now, I'm really enjoying these. They are an excellent match with the SAMs. I am feeding them with the Inspire LP-2 preamp.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160385)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160388)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160386)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160387)
.
.......Peter
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Peter,
We keep running in the same circles. I've been considering your advice my HT system and am leaning toward using the SAM's are the front channel speakers with RS5-based speakers for the center and surround. The RS-5 is a little more forgiving of amplification and I would like to be able to use the SAM's for pure music as well as HT. My Marantz AVR sounds warm and is compatible from a wpc standpoint (it is rated at 50wpc into two channels, which means it is more like a real 30wpc receiver). But with the SAM's on the front channels I wouldn't mind running a solid state amp off the front preamp outs. I had just put myself on the email list for when the Amp Camp amps come back in stock. What I would really want to try is the Aleph J, but it is less of a kit and more of a pair of boards and a design. I would imagine it would also cost about 3 times what the amp camp would.
R
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Good feedback in this thread!
I've got some Omega's on order and remembered I have a Firstwatt F5 clone sitting in a closet. I'll try to give it a go at some point Once my speakers arrive. Hopefully the F5 will be a good pairing with its push-pull Class A design that utilizes JFETs and MOSFETs. Anyone else have experience with this iteration?
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Peter,
We keep running in the same circles. I've been considering your advice my HT system and am leaning toward using the SAM's are the front channel speakers with RS5-based speakers for the center and surround. The RS-5 is a little more forgiving of amplification and I would like to be able to use the SAM's for pure music as well as HT. My Marantz AVR sounds warm and is compatible from a wpc standpoint (it is rated at 50wpc into two channels, which means it is more like a real 30wpc receiver). But with the SAM's on the front channels I wouldn't mind running a solid state amp off the front preamp outs. I had just put myself on the email list for when the Amp Camp amps come back in stock. What I would really want to try is the Aleph J, but it is less of a kit and more of a pair of boards and a design. I would imagine it would also cost about 3 times what the amp camp would.
R
Contrary to what my post might convey, I really don't know what I'm doing electronically. I followed directions, got some advice on the diy ACA thread and it turned out well. Might be a touch of luck involved too!
I've looked at some of the other projects including preamps and other amps, but they all look rather daunting to me!
If you do go for the ACA, consider going the 24v route even if with less expensive power supplies. In fact, I have a pair of inexpensive 24v switching supplies that I would send to you for postage if you were to use them.
I think you are aware that I use a DECWare switch to switch between preamps using the same amp and speakers for HT and music. If I didn't already have the LP-2, I might not be doing that. But with a good 2-channel pre on board already, it was preferable to me to add the switch.
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VERY COOL Peter... am I understanding it correctly that the two chassis pictured are what the 24v power supplies came installed in? The chassis, interior assembly and wood exterior all look positively amazing!
I'll read through the Bride of Zen preamp information and see if I can muster the courage to attempt that project :o
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Good feedback in this thread!
I've got some Omega's on order and remembered I have a Firstwatt F5 clone sitting in a closet. I'll try to give it a go at some point Once my speakers arrive. Hopefully the F5 will be a good pairing with its push-pull Class A design that utilizes JFETs and MOSFETs. Anyone else have experience with this iteration?
I owned a First Watt F5 (not a clone) for a couple of months. While it isn't as refined as it's younger brother, the F7 (currently own), I liked it quite a bit. It has a rather spot lit high end which can be fun to listen to and could be a good match for warmer sounding speakers. I wouldn't necessarily say it is a bright sounding amp, but it is a very revealing amp that emphasizes leading edges. Unforgiving is probably the best word to describe the F5. I think Nelson has said as much too. I'd maybe caution pairing the F5 with fast and revealing speakers, like the Omega 3 range. It could work, but may need more consideration in other areas of the playback chain to achieve a balanced / natural sound. It may also depend on the type of music you listen to and the recording quality. If you listen to poorly recorded rock, the F5 with Omega 3's may not work in your favor. But hey, you already have the amp. May as well give it a try. :thumb:
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I owned a First Watt F5 (not a clone) for a couple of months. While it isn't as refined as it's younger brother, the F7 (currently own), I liked it quite a bit. It has a rather spot lit high end which can be fun to listen to and could be a good match for warmer sounding speakers. I wouldn't necessarily say it is a bright sounding amp, but it is a very revealing amp that emphasizes leading edges. Unforgiving is probably the best word to describe the F5. I think Nelson has said as much too. I'd maybe caution pairing the F5 with fast and revealing speakers, like the Omega 3 range. It could work, but may need more consideration in other areas of the playback chain to achieve a balanced / natural sound. It may also depend on the type of music you listen to and the recording quality. If you listen to poorly recorded rock, the F5 with Omega 3's may not work in your favor. But hey, you already have the amp. May as well give it a try. :thumb:
Its been a long time since I listening to the amp and I actually bought it originally to use with some AKG K1000 headphones and remember it sounding like nothing I've heard before regarding clarity and detail. My Omegas are the Junior 8XRS which supposedly share the sound profile of the smaller driver but with more body. It will be nice to give it a go either way!
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This is more for future reference since I don't believe anyone has had a chance to try this yet, but I'm curious to know how the lower impedance HO speakers sound with the First Watt J2. While I'm not concerned about the 10W output at 4Ω, the Stereophile review said the J2 didn't measure as well at 4Ω loads and I'm wondering how that manifests itself audibly... if at all w/ the very efficient Omegas.
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This is more for future reference since I don't believe anyone has had a chance to try this yet, but I'm curious to know how the lower impedance HO speakers sound with the First Watt J2. While I'm not concerned about the 10W output at 4Ω, the Stereophile review said the J2 didn't measure as well at 4Ω loads and I'm wondering how that manifests itself audibly... if at all w/ the very efficient Omegas.
As with any other case, it likely depends on how loud you want to listen. However, something to note here is that Nelson designed the J2 essentially for single driver speakers. I read this somewhere a long time ago and I'd have to do tons of digging to find where I read this. I'm sure if you emailed Nelson he'd tell you as much. As such, I was not at all surprised that Stereophile found that the amp doesn't like low impedance dips. BUT, this doesn't mean it won't work well for other speakers, and perhaps the HO Omegas would be great match. Though they are 4 ohm, they should be electrically benign for the most part ; Their higher sensitivity largely making up for their lower impedance (compared to their single driver brethren). I fully understand your thinking here. But if you're really unsure about the J2, Nelson has designed other First Watt amps to be more "universal" like the F5 and F7. I think the M2 can probably join that list also, though its sonic signature is a little different from the J2, F5 and F7. Yes, I've had all these amps at one time or another. :thumb:
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As with any other case, it likely depends on how loud you want to listen. However, something to note here is that Nelson designed the J2 essentially for single driver speakers. I read this somewhere a long time ago and I'd have to do tons of digging to find where I read this. I'm sure if you emailed Nelson he'd tell you as much. As such, I was not at all surprised that Stereophile found that the amp doesn't like low impedance dips. BUT, this doesn't mean it won't work well for other speakers, and perhaps the HO Omegas would be great match. Though they are 4 ohm, they should be electrically benign for the most part ; Their higher sensitivity largely making up for their lower impedance (compared to their single driver brethren). I fully understand your thinking here. But if you're really unsure about the J2, Nelson has designed other First Watt amps to be more "universal" like the F5 and F7. I think the M2 can probably join that list also, though its sonic signature is a little different from the J2, F5 and F7. Yes, I've had all these amps at one time or another. :thumb:
Thanks, I've heard the same thing regarding the design goal of the J2. I'm pretty good about keeping listening level peaks no higher than 91 or 92 db from my listening positioning. Anything louder than that and I can feel it working in a noticeably unpleasant way on my ears (and not in a way that it sounds bad on any level or that I'm overdriving the amp or speakers). The good news is that if the J2 wasn't ideal with the HOs, the J2 (and all the FW amps seemingly) don't sit very long looking for a buyer.
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Thanks, I've heard the same thing regarding the design goal of the J2. I'm pretty good about keeping listening level peaks no higher than 91 or 92 db from my listening positioning. Anything louder than that and I can feel it working in a noticeably unpleasant way on my ears. The good news is that if the J2 wasn't ideal with the HOs, the J2 (and all the FW amps seemingly) don't sit very long looking for a buyer.
Though I currently own the F7, I'm very fond of the J2. I sometimes have thoughts of getting one again. The F7 is a bit more balanced across the board and has a bigger presentation, but the J2 has a sense of speed and inner glow that make it quite fun and addictive to listen to in its own way. Both sound completely natural, and are very very highly resolving, but present the music a bit differently.....providing their own "interpretations" of the recorded signal. If the J2 doesn't work out, I'm pretty confident the F7 would be the best alternative from First Watt for you.
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Hey Peter,
Great looking ACA amps.. I have sent you a PM.. about changing the DC on these amps.. I own these same amps and they are a very good match for my omegas..
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Hey Peter,
Great looking ACA amps.. I have sent you a PM.. about changing the DC on these amps.. I own these same amps and they are a very good match for my omegas..
Thanks Peter!
You probably are aware of the diyAudio thread on building these unless maybe you bought them already built. Here's the last page: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/215392-amp-camp-amp-aca-329.html. Derekva is asking about changing to 24v and information about doing this is pulled forward to the last couple of posts.
The short answer is that you change the voltage bias in each amp to read 12v using the screw adjustment on the board. You need a multimeter to do this. Easy, but may seem complicated if it is all new to you. 24v has definitely improved the sound over 19. It supposedly increases power from 6 to 8 watts and the increased dynamics are audible.
Here is a build video: https://youtu.be/RjqJeF34adk
Here is the pictorial build guide: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/247361-aca-illustrated-build-guide.html
......Peter
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VERY COOL Peter... am I understanding it correctly that the two chassis pictured are what the 24v power supplies came installed in? The chassis, interior assembly and wood exterior all look positively amazing!
I'll read through the Bride of Zen preamp information and see if I can muster the courage to attempt that project :o
Sorry, I missed your post until now. Thanks for the compliment. And you are correct: the chassis are what the 24v PS's came in. I modified the back plate, removed the top plate and used standoffs to raise the new wooden top plate that holds the amp board and its heat sink. The side heat sinks are for the power supply chips and the top sink is for the amp's.
.....Peter
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Sorry, I missed your post until now. Thanks for the compliment. And you are correct: the chassis are what the 24v PS's came in. I modified the back plate, removed the top plate and used standoffs to raise the new wooden top plate that holds the amp board and its heat sink. The side heat sinks are for the power supply chips and the top sink is for the amp's.
.....Peter
I have the ACA amps. I am curious about the linear PS. Where did you get it from?
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I have the ACA amps. I am curious about the linear PS. Where did you get it from?
eBay - from China. This is it:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100VA-Ultra-low-Noise-LPS-HI-END-Linear-power-supply-for-audio-DC5V-24V-Optional-/131962052051?hash=item1eb98d1dd3:g:ut0AAOSwN6JY9JJ3
There are a number of similar supplies, some more fancy with voltage readouts, etc.
You can build something like I did, or you can just use these supplies as is connecting with supplied umbilical to the DC inlet on the ACAs (and adjusting the voltage bias of course). There is something to be said for keeping the power supplies separate from the amp chassis. Just too many boxes for me. Oh, I also added a ferrite noise filter on the AC line coming in to the power supply. It's the white square-ish piece in the photo I posted above. Zero noise, so it worked out fine.
If you, or anyone, wants to do a similar build, I can save you some time with specs for threads, etc.
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eBay - from China. This is it:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100VA-Ultra-low-Noise-LPS-HI-END-Linear-power-supply-for-audio-DC5V-24V-Optional-/131962052051?hash=item1eb98d1dd3:g:ut0AAOSwN6JY9JJ3
There are a number of similar supplies, some more fancy with voltage readouts, etc.
You can build something like I did, or you can just use these supplies as is connecting with supplied umbilical to the DC inlet on the ACAs (and adjusting the voltage bias of course). There is something to be said for keeping the power supplies separate from the amp chassis. Just too many boxes for me. Oh, I also added a ferrite noise filter on the AC line coming in to the power supply. It's the white square-ish piece in the photo I posted above. Zero noise, so it worked out fine.
If you, or anyone, wants to do a similar build, I can save you some time with specs for threads, etc.
Thanks,
I may do this in the future when I finish all the other current projects. I would probably buy another set of amp boards without the enclosures and add the amp boards into the PS enclosures. The enclosures seem well built. Looks like you can get them with silver front faces.
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I also want to recommend the F7 amp, I now have the Wyred 4 sound STP-SE (stage 2 upgrades) preamp and it is really showing this amp off to its best I feel. My Manley Shrimp (tube) also did a fine job, but the amp has such character I liked the idea of not coloring it, hence the (mostly) no-gain buffer. I use Devore super 8s (please forgive me!), though Louis graciously lent me Omegas to try some time ago when I had Red Wine Audio gear, so I know how good they are.