[Mr. Big]

@toolcool thanks much for the link. The Symposium looks intriguing.

@Rusty I am located in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley south of Luray Caverns if you know those. If by DMV, you meant DC, MD, VA then yes! I would love the opportunity to listen to a pair of X5's. I run a research center in Largo, MD so get to the DC area often. I also travel periodically and mostly drive when within 10 hours driving distance. Very happy to make a side trip for an opportunity to hear the Spatials.

@Ron I am not disinclined to purchase used. Thanks for the link. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it appeared from the reviews I read that the X4 and X5 made notable improvements over the Sapphires which also seem to be outstanding speakers.

@Mr Big from what I have seen the Mac phono stages lack the versatility to handle the cartridges I've been considering, which is why if I upgrade I was tending towards the Luxman or a Modwright. I have a friend with ML gear who also raves about it.

@Letitroll thanks for your recommendation. With great advice I've received from all of you I am encouraged to tinker some more with the Platinums which are a joy to listen to. The tweeters on mine are on the inside of the speaker with a rear baffle. They have a faux marble exterior that I think I mistakenly referred to as granite. What software would you recommend for the room measurement -- I have seen some reference to these but hadn't investigated them further. Below is a pic -- not the best.



At one point I was wondering if buying a used Mac 2102 (for a matched pair) to switch to a monoblock configuration might boost the dimensionality of the sound. Any feedback on that idea that others might like to share?

Thanks again to all who have given me such a warm welcome to this community. You all have provided awesome advice for which I am very grateful.

I sent you a private message.

[Teenage diplomat]

I want to second a recommendation above in the thread about buying used.  Spatials are wonderful, but to hear everything they’re capable of you have to let them break in.  We’re talking up to 150 hours from new.  So the fellow who provided a link to a used pair of M3 Sapphires at a great price steered you in the right direction.  That’s a great deal.  Good luck!

[AllanS]

Not to throw a curveball but you might consider giving the folks at Spatial a call before jumping.  You have experience and may have already considered all you need to know but Cloud was very helpful guiding me to the M4s based on my setup and preferences. 
The X family has some great stuff going for it but that doesn’t mean the Ms aren’t as good or maybe better for a given set of circumstances. 
Clayton grew up with piano as a soundtrack in his life and I think you hear that in the speakers.  The M4 is “only” 90 dB so aren’t as flexible as the Xs but are easily driven in my space by a 10w desktop amp running in the main system for a while. I listen at relatively low volume and love how full the lower end sounds without having to drive them hard.
Good luck!

[RonN5]

Let me say the following about the differences/similarities between the M's and X's.  They are very similar...more similar than different in how they sound.  With the AMT tweeter, some feel the X's have better detail...and I think this probably true...but possibly at a cost, because if anything else in the system isn't up to snuff, you risk brightness and sibilance.

As Ron from New Record Day said, the M's march right up to the edge of that line of detail and brightness...and don't cross over...I'd say this isn't completely accurate....they may not have the etched detail the X's have but they are also easier to drive without having brightness.

One other thing about the M's which you may or may not like...they have really wide dispersion which results in a very enveloping sound so you have to work a little harder with angle and tilt to get the pinpoint imaging you may want...but is definitely achievable and then you have both detail and immersion.

My reason for suggesting the purchase of preowned M's was simple...to find out if you liked the open baffle sound and if you could find a position in your room where they sound good...and do this with little financial downside risk and and then an easy option to buy the X's if you concluded that would be the next correct step.

The M's and X's are both fantastic speakers that are extremely musical.

[Mr. Big]

Not to throw a curveball but you might consider giving the folks at Spatial a call before jumping.  You have experience and may have already considered all you need to know but Cloud was very helpful guiding me to the M4s based on my setup and preferences. 
The X family has some great stuff going for it but that doesn’t mean the Ms aren’t as good or maybe better for a given set of circumstances. 
Clayton grew up with piano as a soundtrack in his life and I think you hear that in the speakers.  The M4 is “only” 90 dB so aren’t as flexible as the Xs but are easily driven in my space by a 10w desktop amp running in the main system for a while. I listen at relatively low volume and love how full the lower end sounds without having to drive them hard.
Good luck!

Very Good advice! I called and spoke with Clayton, I was going with the X's series but after we spoke about my room and my Enjoyment of 10 years with Quad ESL 63 speakers he felt the Sapphires M3 would be the best for me and 2 years on I am still enjoying them and still shake my head on how good they are. So you're right to go right to the source and get sound helpful info by calling Spatial before you buy new or used.

[meracus]

Don’t believe the hype
I would try a newer amplification first , maybe a hypex unit , bound to be totally unphased by whatever your speakers demand … I would start with something from NAD  or thereabouts … in the 1000/ 2000
Usd range….  topping  l90 is epic and is on par with a pass 30.8 to my ears …. Slightly different but nonetheless amazing considering the cost

If that doesn’t cure it … as in your speakers are not being driven properly … forget the “ silver cable will get you more depth / power cord gets more bass etc ) in my opinion total bull
You may have to deal with speaker then

Later on if you can spare a few hundreds … look at the latest dacs , you would wriggle more info from you files / disc .. guaranteed …
And whatever you do … don’t remortgage … this idea of your speakers are not on par with your amp cos they cost too little etc is also total bull , cost has very little to do with performance … specially in high end audio
Where it’s mainly “ cucumber in the trouser “ effect … like mine is more expensive then yours therefore it’s better … it the biggest myth ever
Just go with proven tech … not magic / tantalum / designer drowned and took formula with him /  or anything like …. He was introduced to the high end by his dad …. And after going to college and studied the flute ….. he then went on to create the finest digital xover there was … as in … no engineering background. Means hobbyist
Who pegs his gear against another brand therefore it’s worth a mint
Happy hunting

[Letitroll98]

Room EQ Wizard, REW, is by far the most popular with the most tutorials.  It will work with inexpensive calibration mic's, the most popular being the Parts Express model, but any USB calibration mic will work.

[DBT AUDIO]

This is my first post on AudioCircle. My system is not vintage but aged. I acquired most of my current setup in 1998: Basis Audio TT, Electrocampaniet ECP phono stage, Macintosh 2200/2102 amplification, and Platinum Reference 1 (granite-encased) speakers. My digital sources are newer Schitt Audio units. I haven't changed anything in the analog side for years because I found the sound greatly enjoyable.

I know you’ve been loaded with tons of good information and you may be just as confused as you were when you initiated your first post after taking in all the advice.  Lol…

I think the biggest sonic change you might get is moving from a traditional box speaker to an open baffle speaker like the Spatial Audio brand you are considering.  If you make that purchase, I recommend you don’t change a thing in your current setup if you really like what you have.  Let the Spatials break in for at least 150 hours, as someone previously mentioned, before judging them and if you think you are missing something, sonically, it may be time to start tweaking?  You have nice gear, the Mac and Tara Labs cables to start.

Finding contentment can be hard in this hifi game, but I think it has to do with a person’s personality in general.  I’m not a psychologist, so this is just “my opinion”.  If you’re the kind of person that always wants to know what it would be like if you bought this car, that house, those shoes, etc., over what you already bought, then you may end up treating your curiosity the same way with your hifi gear.  Basically, if you love the way your gear sounds after buying Spatials, try to be content if you can.  Otherwise, you’ll always have this, how would it sound if I bought this new component, type of thinking.  It will drive you nuts and cost a lot of money.  Lol…. I get caught up in it too and I have to tame myself often, so I’m not trying to slam anybody as if I’m special and has it all figured out.  I’ve done some gear swapping over the years, but the speakers have always made the biggest change in my setup.  My streamer actually improved the sound very quantitatively, but not a lot of “night and day” differences with each new item I’ve swapped out, although the improvements were enough to keep them in the chain.  I think us hifi enthusiasts can use the night and day comparison a bit too loosely and it loses its true meaning. 

Lastly, the M Series are not available on the Spatial Audio website as of 4/9/2023, so it’s not an option if you wanted to buy them new. I had and sold the X5s and will be ordering the current X4 Ultra models very soon.  Uncle Sam is more important than buying new speakers during this time of year!  Lol….  I heard the M3 Sapphire models at the LTA store and they sounded glorious!   No complaints from me.  I prefer the AMT tweeter and I prefer the fully passive X4s over the X5s and that’s why I sold them.

Sorry for the long post…. Enjoy your hifi journey!

[Mr. Big]

I know you’ve been loaded with tons of good information and you may be just as confused as you were when you initiated your first post after taking in all the advice.  Lol…

I think the biggest sonic change you might get is moving from a traditional box speaker to an open baffle speaker like the Spatial Audio brand you are considering.  If you make that purchase, I recommend you don’t change a thing in your current setup if you really like what you have.  Let the Spatials break in for at least 150 hours, as someone previously mentioned, before judging them and if you think you are missing something, sonically, it may be time to start tweaking?  You have nice gear, the Mac and Tara Labs cables to start.

Finding contentment can be hard in this hifi game, but I think it has to do with a person’s personality in general.  I’m not a psychologist, so this is just “my opinion”.  If you’re the kind of person that always wants to know what it would be like if you bought this car, that house, those shoes, etc., over what you already bought, then you may end up treating your curiosity the same way with your hifi gear.  Basically, if you love the way your gear sounds after buying Spatials, try to be content if you can.  Otherwise, you’ll always have this, how would it sound if I bought this new component, type of thinking.  It will drive you nuts and cost a lot of money.  Lol…. I get caught up in it too and I have to tame myself often, so I’m not trying to slam anybody as if I’m special and has it all figured out.  I’ve done some gear swapping over the years, but the speakers have always made the biggest change in my setup.  My streamer actually improved the sound very quantitatively, but not a lot of “night and day” differences with each new item I’ve swapped out, although the improvements were enough to keep them in the chain.  I think us hifi enthusiasts can use the night and day comparison a bit too loosely and it loses its true meaning. 

Lastly, the M Series are not available on the Spatial Audio website as of 4/9/2023, so it’s not an option if you wanted to buy them new. I had and sold the X5s and will be ordering the current X4 Ultra models very soon.  Uncle Sam is more important than buying new speakers during this time of year!  Lol….  I heard the M3 Sapphire models at the LTA store and they sounded glorious!   No complaints from me.  I prefer the AMT tweeter and I prefer the fully passive X4s over the X5s and that’s why I sold them.

Sorry for the long post…. Enjoy your hifi journey!

Long, Long ago like 40 years, yes I am getting old, the TAS started the if you like this model better, wait till you hear their new model, and slowly that myth became ingrained in many of us. Always something better, we became overly paranoid that what we owned was already outdated. I was one of them. But one day I stopped and thought about systems I heard that were many years earlier including many of mine, and I said you know when you hit it is good, then you change in the hopes of a newer sound, but I realized they were not better but different with something lost and maybe something gained. I was speaking to an old audiophile friend and he said to remember that system, Snell Type A speakers, Mark Levinson ML2's and ML7 preamp, and the Linn Turntable, man that system was like real sounding, that was 1979, with no exotic cables or power cords or god forbid line conditioners or $200.00 ac outlets. So waaay back then there were systems with outstanding fidelity and if we had owned that system today we are as happy as a pig in mud. 
I've owned 15 top speakers over those many years, and the Spatial Audio ones are as good as any of them, yes, the sonics are different, but then so were the open baffle designs called the DQ10 by Dalquist. The woofers were sealed though, my Dynaudio Confidence speakers had more thump in the bottom, but not the detail they were more present in the bottom end but sounded like that on every recording unlike the Spaital that can sound strong in the bottom and another recording very laid back in the bottom, so aside from the thump the M3's are better by far. Midrange wise up there with my Quad ESL speakers 57 or 63's. Highs are excellent once broken in, other speakers I have owned the highs could be forward, or sweet and laid back, Spaital's fall somewhere in between. So overall they do it all and in a more natural way. Listen to Bach and it sounds like the quartet is right in the room. If I was to say one thing about the spatial is that they really, really give you the illusion of sound that sound live in the room, and listening from another room at times makes you feel like there is a band playing in the next room. Does it get better than that no, and that was the goal some 40 years ago, to have the performance in your room in from of you, that old system did it, and these speakers 40 years later can do it. So good is good, be it 40 years ago or today.

[Daryl Zero]

Let me throw my 2 cents in. Spatial Audio Lab Speakers are neither hype nor joke. If you like an open and transparent sound, they're your huckleberry.

I've always like ribbon, planar type speakers starting with some Martin Logan ribbon speakers. I almost always buy used and found a Magnepan LRS which sounded really nice but made me want more. I then sold and bought a used set of Magnepan .7s which again sounded great but again made me want more. I got interested from reading about open baffle speakers but they seemed foreign or expensive. I saw an ad for someone in a city about 120 miles away selling his X5s at a good discount. I drove up with my daughter to listen to them and, once I heard them, I bought them. 

These speakers do everything I want and I've not thought about wanting more other than upgrading amplification.

If you love the stuff you have, that's great. If you cannot afford to upgrade, don't or put away money in a jar until you can afford it. Besides the great sound, one of the best things about high efficiency speakers is all of the options for amplification. The main thing it did for me was to get me into tube amps which I now prefer over solid state. I probably wouldn't have had that opportunity with my previous speakers.

I don't want to spend a bunch of money but I figure that you need to spend something to get magic. 

[CountryBoy]

I cannot not thank you all enough for the tremendously valuable advice. I am on a business trip which explains my tardy reply to your posts. I have the opportunity to hear Spatials in the near future which I cannot wait to do!

At the risk of sacrilege to the wise advice offered here, at this point in my investigations I have narrowed my choice to Spatial (probably X4 Ultra) or Wharfedale Elysian 4. I can get the Wharfedales on a 60-day trial from Crutchfield.

I also will be taking a more systematic approach to my current setup, including room measurement which I was unaware of prior to reading your helpful replies.

[dflee]

CoutryBoy:
Have you considered different tubes with the Macs?
Not a big tube guy but from what I've read they do make a difference. Pricings seem to be all over the place for them but
you might find some ideas going that route. Maybe even adding a sub to what you have.

Don

[AllanS]

I also will be taking a more systematic approach to my current setup, including room measurement

If I were to do it all over again maximizing room potential would be third on the list (rather than last) after an overall plan grounded by reasonable expectations and speakers that fit into that plan.  What good is it to put money into highly resolving gear if the room is going to throw a veil over it?
Best of luck!

[GeorgeAb]

Would be good to know how big your room is and if you have any acoustic treatment. WRT to imaging acoustic treatment of managing the reflections goes a long long way. I recently sold some 40 year old KEF 103.2 speakers which I had used as surrounds for years. A simple two way system. I put them in a well treated large room so they could be auditioned. I was astounded at how good they sounded. Felt a tad guilty as I knew the first person who heard them would snap them up, but may be dissapointed when they got home. Fortunately, the guy I sold them to is the owner of a brick and morter A/V store which has been around for 53 years. So he knew exactly what they were. The point I am trying to make is in a well treated room a pair of $200 NHT Super Zeros will perform well. I have never heard your speaker, but they appear quality and are regarded for their imaging.

Also would be good to know if you want to stick with a simple two way system like you currently have. If so, I have spent time with the Buchardt speakers and they are exceptional. Rarely come up used, but they are out there. GR Research makes a simple two way bookshelf that is highly regarded. I have heard the Spatail Audio X4 and they are very nice.

Also, I think you can find an audio society close to where you live; and likely will get invites from forum members. Understand your speakers are heavy, but they are not big. When you get an invite ask if you can bring your speakers. With your speakers you will have a reference point. Even if you have to plop them up on chairs in front of the other speakers you will know how much of an upgrade the speakers you are listening to will be.  Should take 5 minutes to set up and you will know immediately.   

My recommendation is start by sorting your room acoustically. Your current system will be vastly improved and anything you upgrade will be also. Going to leave off with a Spatail Audio X4 video. I chose as I am on the Spatial Audio forum, but I wanted to show a room that looks to be done right acoustically. It is always the room! IMO that is where you should start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZccwhEJ5Fvs

[CountryBoy]

CoutryBoy:
Have you considered different tubes with the Macs?
Not a big tube guy but from what I've read they do make a difference. Pricings seem to be all over the place for them but
you might find some ideas going that route. Maybe even adding a sub to what you have.

Don

Don, I have swapped tubes in my Mac gear and found it worthwhile. As for subs, I have a pair of JBL Synthesis subs in my home theater that I moved to the audio room but honestly I found the quick bass response I get from the Platinums to be much preferred and tonally more accurate, IMO. However, maybe that was due to my inexperience with setting crossovers or due to the JBLs being better for theater than for audio. They are awesome in the theater.

[CountryBoy]

If I were to do it all over again maximizing room potential would be third on the list (rather than last) after an overall plan grounded by reasonable expectations and speakers that fit into that plan.  What good is it to put money into highly resolving gear if the room is going to throw a veil over it?
Best of luck!

Excellent point, Allan. I am ordering the room measurement mics this week and looking forward to what I will learn from the analysis.

[lazbisme]

"Excellent point, Allan. I am ordering the room measurement mics this week and looking forward to what I will learn from the analysis."

Do as you wish but, with the Spatials, very little room treatment is needed! a\A bit of diffusion behind is about it. I have four large GIK "absorbers" sitting in another room that were not only not necessary with the X3s but were actually detrimental to the sound!

[CountryBoy]

My recommendation is start by sorting your room acoustically. Your current system will be vastly improved and anything you upgrade will be also. Going to leave off with a Spatail Audio X4 video. I chose as I am on the Spatial Audio forum, but I wanted to show a room that looks to be done right acoustically. It is always the room! IMO that is where you should start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZccwhEJ5Fvs

Thanks for the valuable advice and the video, George. In an earlier post I stated, "My speakers are out 6' from the back wall in a 15 1/2' x 23' room with a vaunted ceiling that rises from 10 to 15' -- filled bookshelves line the side walls up to 9 or 10' and on the rear wall (behind the speakers) which I hope are contributing acoustic benefits since adding treatments on the walls is nearly impossible." I could add treatment to the ceiling and on a closet and bathroom door that are behind the speakers if that would assist in enlarging the soundstage or improving instrument separation.

I have watched all the New Record Day videos on Spatial (and many others) which is actually how I first became interested in these speakers and learned about open baffle speakers for the first time. I wish he would repeat song sampling with different components, e.g., cartridges and phono stages or transports/DACs, to get an idea of how the Spatials respond to source changes.

I am most interested in discovering what is the first change to make after over 20+ years of being quite satisfied with my setup. What would have the greatest impact? From what I've read, this question alone demonstrates my naivete because it probably isn't a "one-thing" issue. However, when I've asked that question before of people I believe to be experts, I nearly always heard "new speakers" until recently when my cartridge was nearing its end of life and a dealer suggested I should instead focus on a new phono stage that would afford a wider selection of cartridge options.

Today, I listened to the Wharfedale Elysian 4s at a Crutchfield store. Definitely not an ideal room, but they did seem to bring something to the table that I may have been unknowingly missing in my room. Only way to really know would be to try them in my setup of course. But I want to get a little more clarity on the options before lugging those beasts up the flight of stairs. That starts with measuring the room and seeing if some inexpensive or much less expensive tweaks brings the next level of audio nirvana with the current gear.

You all have provided extremely valuable insights which I have no doubt will bring substantial improvements to my listening pleasures in the near future.

[Spatial Audio]

@countryboy

We would recommend starting with the speakers. They dictate everything else you will do with your system from room treatment to components. For example you will treat a room different depending on if the speaker has a narrow dispersion or wide dispersion.

Thanks,
Spatial

[Mr. Big]

@countryboy

We would recommend starting with the speakers. They dictate everything else you will do with your system from room treatment to components. For example you will treat a room different depending on if the speaker has a narrow dispersion or wide dispersion.

Thanks,
Spatial

Very sound advise.