Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers

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Duckey

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Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« on: 6 Jan 2024, 05:46 pm »
I'm liking what I read about the Philharmonic brand of speakers. Especially the BMR Tower with it's gorgeous rose wood and eye pleasing dimensions. Wondering if anyone owns these and their thoughts of the mid and high end sectors.

mkrawcz

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Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #1 on: 6 Jan 2024, 07:00 pm »
I have pair of the BMR monitors in gloss black. They are good and they have a really gorgeous finish for the money, but they don't remotely compare with the GR-Research NX-series speakers when it comes to midrange and up sound quality. I may send one to Danny at some point to measure.

jmimac351

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Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #2 on: 7 Jan 2024, 11:52 am »
I'm liking what I read about the Philharmonic brand of speakers. Especially the BMR Tower with it's gorgeous rose wood and eye pleasing dimensions. Wondering if anyone owns these and their thoughts of the mid and high end sectors.

I looked into that stuff as well, and moved on.  I have not heard the speakers, and would certainly like to one day, if the opportunity presented itself.  I can share why I moved on from them, and what I'm experiencing right now - if it helps you figure out what you want.

Before I share that... I'm curious, have you ever spoken to Danny Richie? 

RonN5

Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #3 on: 7 Jan 2024, 01:10 pm »
I owned the BMR monitor.  If you've heard any of the Salk speakers and liked them...it is a good bet that Dennis Murphy did the crossovers and helped to voice them.

The BMRs are great sounding speakers and the finish and woodworking are beyond furniture quality.   I have one caution that Dennis himself points out to people....  he designed them to have very wide dispersion...almost 180 degrees so there will be a lot of room interaction resulting in a sound that is akin to a concert hall or a cathedral.

You may love this sound...you may not.

One final thing...they are always in high demand.  Resale is pretty easy and they hold a high percentage of their value.




jmimac351

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Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #4 on: 7 Jan 2024, 01:42 pm »
I have one caution that Dennis himself points out to people....  he designed them to have very wide dispersion...almost 180 degrees so there will be a lot of room interaction resulting in a sound that is akin to a concert hall or a cathedral.

That's one of the reasons I didn't pursue them.  I've already owned a "wall of sound with poor imaging".  They were called Magnepan 3.7i.  :green: They did some cool stuff though... and the rightness of OB is why I bought them in the first place.  When over at "the local audiophile / dealer's house to see what new stuff he has", they were the pair of speakers everyone ended up huddling around after listening to the "latest / greatest".   

newzooreview

Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #5 on: 7 Jan 2024, 02:33 pm »
Erin's Audio Corner has done state-of-the-art Klippel NSF measurements on the BMR bookshelf, which uses the same RAAL and BMR drivers for the highs and mids.

As nice as they look, I would not want to sacrifice the imaging, but that is a subjective issue.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/philharmonic_bmr_v2/

His listening notes (reflecting on his measurements):

Quote
The wide soundstage and the openness is remarkable. It may very well be something others love; I know that is a cool effect I like to hear and it was really awesome on certain tracks which are panned hard to either side. However, this does seem to come at the cost of imaging focus. While I generally listened to these speakers on-axis, I did try towing them out (facing more into the room) and it didn’t help improve the focus (no surprise, but just addressing it for those who may wonder). With all that said, I dig the width but I’m not sure I’d trade it for the lack of focus it seems to present. I seem to be getting closer to finding that maybe 60° to 70° dispersion angle is my preference and a good sweet spot for trading off soundstage width for focus/imaging precision. This is a preference thing. There is no wrong answer here.

Throughout my listening notes, I had written that there was a “glare” or “sharpness” in the 2-3kHz region. This was apparent on many of the tracks I listened to. Speaking for myself, the peak in the 2-3kHz region is a showstopper without EQ. Way too much “glare” in guitars and upper female vocals for me. With EQ, it’s much better. I tested the v1 of this speaker nearly two years ago and I back then I noted that the treble was a bit too bright. I don’t have that complaint in this version.

The midrange is really quite nice, however, I noted in my listening sessions that I kept hearing a mild resonance in vocals. I thought it was closer to 250-300Hz but looking at the estimated in-room response, there is a slight elevation in the 300-500Hz region and I think this might have been what I was hearing.

Due to the RAAL’s vertical directivity, the vertical listening window is pretty tight. Make sure to sit nearly dead on-axis with the tweeter vertically.

RonN5

Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #6 on: 7 Jan 2024, 03:43 pm »
Let me say a little bit more about my experience.  If you go to the symphony, for the most part, you are hearing a "blended" sound except when there is a solo or when something like a piano or percussion sticks out...so, the experience is not one of precise imaging.  The BMRs are outstanding at this....and when the piano is meant to stand out, the BMRs do it well.

Lets say you go to hear a trio and they are not on top of each other...imaging comes into play and the BMRs do this very well also....but maybe not quite as well as other speakers in terms of locating the exact finger position on the violin.

How about something like Clapton comes alive...acoustic...multiple instruments....the question is what do you want to hear....precise, exact imaging with a lot of separation between instruments?  You often don't experience this with a live show and you won't with the BMRs...the imaging will be good but not laser pinpoint...which to my way of thinking isn't realistic.

My comment was not one of pinpoint imaging but one of ambience....do you prefer the "hall or cathedral" type ambience with a lot of the music you listen to because the BMRs do that well.

A comment on the Magnepans....my buddy has the 3.7i drivien by Lygdorf 2170 as a preamp into a Sanders Magtech Stereo amp with an Audio Kinesis four sub array for the bottom end.  I've heard them in his 18x22' foot room and in his 22x52' foot room...both with 10' ceiling...fantastic imaging and soundstage depth....precise when you expect it and more diffuse when it should be.

If you are at all concerned about too much ambience or lack of laser focused imaging...then the BMRs may not work for you.

Duckey

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Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #7 on: 7 Jan 2024, 03:50 pm »
Thank you all for your input. Wondering how the mid range and highs are with the Raal tweeter. I am somewhat sensitive to a sharp cymbal etc...after 15 minutes.

jmimac351

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Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #8 on: 7 Jan 2024, 04:29 pm »
Thank you all for your input. Wondering how the mid range and highs are with the Raal tweeter. I am somewhat sensitive to a sharp cymbal etc...after 15 minutes.

That was reason #2... I know I like soft dome tweeters.  Anything else - "Trust, but verify."

The same is true for paper cone woofers, well, actually it has to be a paper cone woofer.  That's reason #3.

Reason #4:



Reason #5: Chinesium Cabinets

Perhaps made well, perhaps look good... not for me.



By the time they got to my house, I'm $4,500 into them...
 

Stercom

Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #9 on: 7 Jan 2024, 04:49 pm »
There is absolutely no need to bash Dennis Murphy's speakers especially in the GR Research thread. Dennis is a gentleman and tries to bring value, to what has become, an insanely expensive hobby.

RonN5

Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #10 on: 7 Jan 2024, 06:35 pm »
I’ve owned two RAAL speakers. The BMRs with the RAAL 64-10 and the Salk Veracity STs with RAAL 70XR. They both have tremendous openness and clarity. If you have any harshness in components ahead of them… especially the source…you will hear it… and if not you won’t. They are revealing but aren’t harsh in and of themselves.

My son has Salks with the RAAL 140… not harsh.

Count me as a huge RAAL fan because of its airiness. 

Go spend some time on this thread to learn more…or communicate with Dennis himself.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy.1348949/page-1252?nested_view=1

PS… Dennis Murphy knows how to design great sounding speakers.


jmimac351

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Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #11 on: 7 Jan 2024, 08:08 pm »
There is absolutely no need to bash Dennis Murphy's speakers especially in the GR Research thread. Dennis is a gentleman and tries to bring value, to what has become, an insanely expensive hobby.

I shared my thought process and preferences, as I thought thru those speakers / product.  Perhaps it's helpful to others.  If you construe it as "bashing", so be it.  If you find my thoughts irrelevant, ignore them.  If I've shared something that isn't accurate, correct it.  As for being in a "GR Research Thread", you are incorrect... this is a thread about another brand of speakers in a GR Research forum.  Again, I just shared my thoughts about them as I looked closed at them in the past.   

Lighten up... we're talkin' about speakers.

I’ve owned two RAAL speakers. The BMRs with the RAAL 64-10 and the Salk Veracity STs with RAAL 70XR. They both have tremendous openness and clarity. If you have any harshness in components ahead of them… especially the source…you will hear it… and if not you won’t. They are revealing but aren’t harsh in and of themselves.

My son has Salks with the RAAL 140… not harsh.

Count me as a huge RAAL fan because of its airiness. 

Go spend some time on this thread to learn more…or communicate with Dennis himself.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy.1348949/page-1252?nested_view=1

PS… Dennis Murphy knows how to design great sounding speakers.

Good to know about the RAAL...

I have "spent time on that thread" and have emailed with Dennis Murphy.  In fact, I emailed him about a Salk speaker that was available locally and he was very nice to share info about it, since he designed it. I agree, he is a nice guy and was very helpful.  :thumb:

It's a funny thing... speakers.  People can be very sensitive.  What's funnier is, I thought there would be a lot more noise about the Wilsons.  Not a peep...

jmimac351

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Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #12 on: 7 Jan 2024, 08:22 pm »
I went and dug up the email from Dennis regarding the Salk HT2TL speaker I contacted him about... and this may be relevant / helpful, as you can read his own comments about the BMR Tower.  I'm sure he wouldn't mind me sharing this.  It reinforces feedback about the BMR Tower in this thread and hopefully it helps the OP think things thru...  :thumb:

"Hi Jim    Thanks for writing.  The HT2TL is a very old design and my audio memory isn't good enough to give you a highly accurate comparison of its sound vs. the BMR or HT Towers.  I'll just give you some facts that you can weigh for yourself.   The HT2 is one of the smoothest speakers I've designed, at least on axis.  I've reproduced the response below, along with the response when the tweeter is reversed in polarity, which produces a deep symmetrical null showing that the drivers are precisely in phase at the crossover point when connected with the same polarity.  They are also quite sensitive and have excellent midbass reproduction.  In short, it's one of my favorite 2-way designs.  The advantage of the 3-way BMR tower designs is that the much smaller and wide-dispersion midrange units are a better match for the dispersion pattern of the tweeter than is possible with a large woofer running up to meet the tweeter.  My best guess is that if you played the HT2's and BMR towers side by side, the BMR's would have a more spacious sound, particularly on complex music recorded in a real  venue with natural ambiance.  This difference would be less important for smaller scale material recorded in a studio.   Some people might actually prefer the HT2's for that type of music.  Please let me know if I can answer any further questions.  Cheers, Dennis"

newzooreview

Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #13 on: 7 Jan 2024, 08:54 pm »
Dennis is a kind and generous person. He had me over to his house to listen to Salk speakers when I was considering buying them. I did buy them.

I don't know where the idea developed that anyone here is personally criticizing Dennis. All speakers are designed for a purpose and price. There are trade-offs. If someone is looking to buy speakers they should consider the trade-offs made compared to the purpose they have in mind.

RonN5

Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #14 on: 7 Jan 2024, 09:39 pm »
I think you have to have some background on Salk speakers.  Most of them came to life because someone asked Jim to build them a speaker with particular drivers.  Looking at the line up, it seems to me that people wanted high end drivers made into speakers. If it seemed feasible, often it would be Dennis and  Paul Kittinger collaborating on the particulars.

The Seas W18 on the Salk HT2TL is an expensive and very well regarded transducer...and to my ear, they sound great....both the speaker and the driver.

I think Dennis makes a great point...for a more live type recording with naturally recorded ambience, the BMR will likely bring out the best of the spatiality we all look for....but with a studio recording with artificial ambience engineered in, it can sound overdone.

So, depending on your music preferences, the BMR may be perfect...or it may not be your cup of tea...and lets not forget the contribution of the room which is almost always have a strong influence on the sound we hear unless we sit nearfield.

jmimac351

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Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #15 on: 8 Jan 2024, 01:10 am »
I think you have to have some background on Salk speakers.  Most of them came to life because someone asked Jim to build them a speaker with particular drivers.  Looking at the line up, it seems to me that people wanted high end drivers made into speakers. If it seemed feasible, often it would be Dennis and  Paul Kittinger collaborating on the particulars.

The Seas W18 on the Salk HT2TL is an expensive and very well regarded transducer...and to my ear, they sound great....both the speaker and the driver.

I think Dennis makes a great point...for a more live type recording with naturally recorded ambience, the BMR will likely bring out the best of the spatiality we all look for....but with a studio recording with artificial ambience engineered in, it can sound overdone.

So, depending on your music preferences, the BMR may be perfect...or it may not be your cup of tea...and lets not forget the contribution of the room which is almost always have a strong influence on the sound we hear unless we sit nearfield.

The Salk HT2TL available for sale locally sure were nice looking and I'm sure very well made.  Fortunately I never drove to Venice to look at them... I think "she" actually would have been upset about that purchase...  :green:  In retrospect, it's really good I didn't buy them because I have another fun 2-way project in the works. 

Speakers R Fun.

jmimac351

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Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #16 on: 8 Jan 2024, 01:16 am »
Dennis is a kind and generous person. He had me over to his house to listen to Salk speakers when I was considering buying them. I did buy them.

I don't know where the idea developed that anyone here is personally criticizing Dennis. All speakers are designed for a purpose and price. There are trade-offs. If someone is looking to buy speakers they should consider the trade-offs made compared to the purpose they have in mind.

100%. I think people should buy whatever makes them happy.  I just offered some food for thought as I went thru the process of looking at that stuff.  As for me, I am proud to have a very cool pair of speakers playing in front me my right now that Danny made "sound the way they should have sounded from the factory". 

I am proud of the fact there are guys like Jay and Killian making flatpacks to help people build their speakers and have their own "pride of ownership".

I am proud to call Frederick my friend and that he whipped me up some sweet crossovers, based on Danny's revised design (which he did for FREE).  I have hand made artwork in my home and I am proud to have it.

As for reason #5...

It's being able to pickup the phone and talk to Danny or Hobbs and they will tell you what they think, why they think it... and they will do anything they can to help you.

If the reasons I've shared hurt some feelings, well... yer just gonna have to get over it.  I make no apologies for supporting these guys, because I'm experiencing the best sound I've ever experienced, and I've owned "some stuff"...


Stercom

Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #17 on: 8 Jan 2024, 03:29 am »
 :lol: :lol: calm down jmimac351. You were talking about Philharmonic speakers you have never heard so I called you on it.  Danny makes great speakers too….  There is LOTS of experience with GR Research, Salk and Philharmonic in AudioCircle.

artur9

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Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #18 on: 9 Jan 2024, 02:38 am »
... cabinets made in China are noted...
This, I don't get.  Ask any owner] of a Philharmonic what they think of the cabinetry and the answer is always along the lines of gorgeous].

I own the BMR in the zebra finish and the quality is akin to the Amish/Mennonite handmade furniture it stands next to.

Would I prefer a more local source for these cabinets, sure.  Am I going to get that? no.

Unless I drive up to Fleetwood and buy those OMA for >>$10,000.  (I'm assuming the price because they don't say what the price is and if you have to ask....)
https://fleetwoodsound.com/

Rocket

Re: Philharmonic BMR Tower speakers
« Reply #19 on: 9 Jan 2024, 01:57 pm »
Hi Guys,

Dennis actually stopped producing speakers for a period of time due to health problems. He then was able to obtain some assistance so he doesn't have to move these speakers around his house and yes the cabinets are made in China. I seriously considered the BMR towers but they wouldn't be a good fit in my room.

Actually, this post would be better placed in another circle as this for GR Research products.

I've always found Dennis to be great to deal with and he is an excellent speaker designer.

Cheers Rod