Best solution to listening to music at low volumes? "help me buy question"

20q · « **Reply #40 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 07:42 pm »

I went to my local dealer again. We ended up doing a lot of talking and he seems nice. I also got to hear a tube amp but that wasn't too beneficial for me because I didn't do a comparison with colder sounding equipment. I did notice that the women singers of Veruca Salt sounded more girly. So I'm wondering how that happened. http://s0.ilike.com/play#Veruca+Salt:Get+Back:44034:s62956.6263.5140614.1.1.74%2Cstd_c9a5c07edd3f72dd603e04db6a05a024

My dealer said that back loaded horns don't shout like front loaded ones do. I'm interested in learning more about back loaded horns. Do they still sound forward? If they are brighter maybe I can tame that with the amp and cables?

I think my dealer said that it is harder to hear low and high frequency at low volumes so I might be better off with whatever exagerates those aspects. So far I don't believe I like forward sound from what little I've heard. Can amps and cables lessen a speakers forwardness?

I think I am best off shooting for detail and forgeting about warmth for now. If I end up with something that is too cold I might be able to add a preamp to warm things up.

Thanks to doug s. for talking about horns. Konut that nuforce magic cube looks interesting. Smccull it's always nice to hear comparisons between speakers.

JimJ · « **Reply #41 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 08:13 pm »

Depending on the drivers, backloaded horns can still sound "forward". I know my Fostex Sigs sounded completely different before and after break-in.

Coytee · « **Reply #42 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 08:23 pm »

Quote from: 20q on 10 Nov 2009, 07:42 pm

My dealer said that back loaded horns don't shout like front loaded ones do. I'm interested in learning more about back loaded horns. Do they still sound forward? If they are brighter maybe I can tame that with the amp and cables?

I think my dealer said that it is harder to hear low and high frequency at low volumes so I might be better off with whatever exagerates those aspects. So far I don't believe I like forward sound from what little I've heard. Can amps and cables lessen a speakers forwardness?

I think I am best off shooting for detail and forgeting about warmth for now. If I end up with something that is too cold I might be able to add a preamp to warm things up.

Thanks to doug s. for talking about horns. Konut that nuforce magic cube looks interesting. Smccull it's always nice to hear comparisons between speakers.

I'm wondering if your dealer happens to sell back loaded horns...and not front loaded? I'll admit I do not think I've ever heard a back loaded horn, at least not knowingly. I have owned (pardon me) "normal" horns for 30 years and think they can offer some of the most realistic, dynamic sound that someone could want. This of course, presumes someone wants "live" type, dynamic sound. As for hearing lower frequency at lower volumes... isn't that something to do with the 'muson curve' or something like that?

My current horns, when playing at a very modest level (think playing evening news over them) will still cause some things to vibrate in the room. They're big & ugly so no one likes them but.... there is little denying that they sound very very good (once you get past the visuals)

My experience with horns is essentially, go big or forget it.

JimJ · « **Reply #43 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 09:27 pm »

Quote

They're big & ugly so no one likes them but.... there is little denying that they sound very very good (once you get past the visuals)

I think they look good, but...I'm weird like that

Browntrout · « **Reply #44 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 10:13 pm »

So what is it that would make a system sound good at low levels? I don't know to be honest because mine have always sounded better at a little bit louder than quiet.
I understand the idea behind class A either transistors or valve, that makes sense.
What about speakers? Maybe a simple sealed box with full range in it? What do you guys think, seems like anything with ports or reflex thingies is going to require a certain level for the air inside to start working no?
You could always buy a nice pair of STAX headphones with matching amp and forget all about speakers, amps, room treatments etc etc......sometimes wish I had!

avahifi · « **Reply #45 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 10:15 pm »

Several issues using a high sensitivity speaker. First you want a preamp that's active line section can be set for low gain. This will allow more useful rotation of the volume control and improve your signal to noise ratio. All other things being equal, a low gain power amplifier would be useful too for the same reasons. Third remember that horn speakers gain efficiency because the horn throats are acoustic amplifiers over a very narrow range of frequencies. It is very hard to design a full horn speaker system that has a uniform frequency response. Listen to the speakers you are interested in on broad band "white noise", either a CD recording of this or from an FM tuner tuned off station with no antenna connected and the muting control turned off. A good speaker will give you a continuous sound much like approaching a big waterfall, but just around the corner on the trail ahead. A lesser speaker will divide the white noise into separate segments with the signature of each driver (bass, midrange, tweeter) audible separately.

The advice above from Coytee is correct, to get good deep bass from a horn loaded loudspeaker, the unit has to be BIG. The horn must work at the lowest frequencies and these are large wavelengths. The best I ever heard was in Barbados where the client had 60 feet long straight poured concrete exponential horns extending WAY out into his back yard from his living room walls with big KEF rectangular drivers at the far ends. Nice to have that kind of weather, room, and wife approval.

Finally, to listen to music at low volume, turn the volume control down.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

PS. I suggest a very high quality vaccuum tube amplifier (need not be powerful, maybe 30 watts per channel or less) for best musical results with horn loaded loudspeakers.

doug s. · « **Reply #46 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 10:22 pm »

Quote from: 20q on 10 Nov 2009, 07:42 pm

My dealer said that back loaded horns don't shout like front loaded ones do. I'm interested in learning more about back loaded horns. Do they still sound forward? If they are brighter maybe I can tame that with the amp and cables?

find a new dealer. shouty speakers shout, whether backloaded, frontloaded, or box speakers.

Quote from: 20q on 10 Nov 2009, 07:42 pm

I think my dealer said that it is harder to hear low and high frequency at low volumes so I might be better off with whatever exagerates those aspects...

see my above comments about your dealer. i'd find the most accurate speakers you can. what happens if you ever do want to listen at louder levels?

the fletcher-munson curve means that, listening at low levels, the highs and lows will be less pronounced. using an active sub will take care of the lows - you can increase the bass if you want, when listening at low levels. personally, i do not think you will object so much to the relative decreased highs at lower listening levels. and/or, you could always get an equalizer to change the relative frequency response at different wolume levels. if your preamp has a tape loop,it can even be disengaged when not in use.

doug s.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #47 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 10:23 pm »

20q,
This is just my two cents, and no disrespect meant to you because I realize that you are eager to learn all about audio. (We all know how you feel.

) I think maybe you are spending too much time analyzing individual technologies and possibilities and not enough effort listening to a completed system.

Quote from: 20q on 10 Nov 2009, 07:42 pm

I got to hear a tube amp but that wasn't too beneficial for me because I didn't do a comparison with colder sounding equipment.

I'm interested in learning more about back loaded horns. Do they still sound forward? If they are brighter maybe I can tame that with the amp and cables?

I think my dealer said that it is harder to hear low and high frequency at low volumes so I might be better off with whatever exagerates those aspects.

So far I don't believe I like forward sound from what little I've heard. Can amps and cables lessen a speakers forwardness?

I think I am best off shooting for detail and forgeting about warmth for now. If I end up with something that is too cold I might be able to add a preamp to warm things up.

The one benefit to going to a good bricks and morter dealer is that he has used his time and life experience to put a system together that works for you. This relieves you of the trial and error horrors of buying stuff based on internet forum recommendations, and it can actually can save you money in the long run.

If you hear a complete system that really floats your boat at the dealer, buy it and enjoy it. Try not to over-analyze it or break it down.

If you don't like what you hear at the store, then move on to another dealer. You should at least give your dealer a chance to put something nice together for you that meets your needs.

Probably gonna catch hell for this one, but par for the course. Next topic?

Browntrout · « **Reply #48 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 10:35 pm »

I think the truth is perhaps that systems are not designed to produce a balanced sound at very low levels.

20q · « **Reply #49 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 10:46 pm »

My dealer doesn't sell horns of any kind and he doesn't claim to be an expert on them. I don't know where he got his knowledge from but that is the whole point of my topic. I have had a previous dealer mockingly dismiss single drivers outright. The goal of this topic is to hear advice from people who aren't trying to get my money lol. If there were dealers that sold single drivers and full setups then I'd obviously just listen to them all. Even reading reviews can not always be so useful when they don't always mention low volume listening. It would seem that I am best fit for a non dealer system and my dealer has encouraged me to go this route. He said I could bring in whatever I end up getting and that he'd like to hear it. In the end I'm new to audio and this is a complicated tricky field that takes a lot of learning so I'm just asking as many questions as I can to see what is possible and what isn't and how I should best go about setting up and buying a system. I'm sure other people like me will benefit from reading this topic and I hope I haven't annoyed anyone. Thank you all for your contributions.

doug s. · « **Reply #50 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 10:54 pm »

20q, yust keep your eyes peeled for another pair of used horne shoppe horns; the ones that recently sold for $400 would allow you to try them, and if you didn't like them, you could re-sell w/o taking a beating financially.

i really think something like these - relatively dynamic - would be better for low level listening. and, issues w/bass/treble, (if any), could be dealt with by using sub &/or eq.

good luck,

doug s.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #51 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 11:40 pm »

Best solution to listening to music at low volumes?

Electrostats - hands down.

Coytee · « **Reply #52 on:** 13 Nov 2009, 12:52 am »

20q, where are you located geographically? If you are lucky and in the right area I know we can get you to audition some (huge) 2-way horn loaded speakers. They're front loaded just so you know but they are stellar performers. (and HUGE).

pardales · « **Reply #53 on:** 13 Nov 2009, 12:59 am »

Quote from: doug s. on 10 Nov 2009, 10:54 pm

20q, yust keep your eyes peeled for another pair of used horne shoppe horns; the ones that recently sold for $400 would allow you to try them, and if you didn't like them, you could re-sell w/o taking a beating financially. i really think something like these - relatively dynamic - would be better for low level listening. and, issues w/bass/treble, (if any), could be dealt with by using sub &/or eq.

good luck,

doug s.

I second the recommendation above. I have been after good listening at low volumes for many years and finally settled on the Horn Shoppe Horns with sub and, as avahifi suggests, high quality tube amplification.

Keep in mind though, you have to have a little volume to hear it all. The resolution at low volumes, as good as it is, is never quite what it is when I get to turn the volume up a bit.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #54 on:** 13 Nov 2009, 01:17 am »

Quote from: pardales on 13 Nov 2009, 12:59 am

The resolution at low volumes, as good as it is, is never quite what it is when I get to turn the volume up a bit.

That is quite true of any dynamic driver. (I've owned Horns too.

) The only speakers I've owned / heard that don't need "volume" to come alive are electrostats.

hotroady · « **Reply #55 on:** 13 Nov 2009, 04:26 am »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 13 Nov 2009, 01:17 am

Quote from: pardales on 13 Nov 2009, 12:59 am
The resolution at low volumes, as good as it is, is never quite what it is when I get to turn the volume up a bit.

That is quite true of any dynamic driver. (I've owned Horns too. ) The only speakers I've owned / heard that don't need "volume" to come alive are electrostats.

Yep! I own horns also, but electrostats are better at low volume. No doubt about it.

rajacat · « **Reply #56 on:** 13 Nov 2009, 04:39 am »

My Omega Hemp Bipoles are great at low volume. They are very good at low level detail. Dynamic galore! I'm sure that the wicked speed of the 4" drivers also helps. The bipole configuration contributes a deep sound field and adds quality to the the ambiance cues. They may not be for every situation because they require 4-5' distance from the rear wall to realize their potential. Sometimes I sit between the speakers and fantasize I'm in the band aa.

-Roy

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #57 on:** 13 Nov 2009, 05:09 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 13 Nov 2009, 01:17 am

The only speakers I've owned / heard that don't need "volume" to come alive are electrostats.

I know how you feel. I owned three different models of SoundLabs over a 15 year period. I really did like them during their heyday. One problem with them was finding an amplifier that could handle their load and sound good at the same time. I never was satisfied with my choices of amplifiers. Wolcott Audio's Presence was the best solution that I ever heard, but I got bit by the SET bug and sold it all before going that route.

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 13 Nov 2009, 01:17 am

Quote from: pardales on 13 Nov 2009, 12:59 am
The resolution at low volumes, as good as it is, is never quite what it is when I get to turn the volume up a bit.

That is quite true of any dynamic driver.

Not any more it isn't.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #58 on:** 13 Nov 2009, 11:03 pm »

I'd take a pair of Acoustats with a cheap integrated amp over a SET with a single driver. Even to my non audiophile ex girlfriend, the difference between electrostats and everything else was night and day.

The moving coil in a dynamic driver is inherently very slow compared to an electrostatic charge. Speed makes all the difference in resolution. This is very apparent, especially at low volumes.

Most people who have electrostats can never go back to dynamic drivers, the ones that do like to listen at loud volumes.

srb · « **Reply #59 on:** 13 Nov 2009, 11:09 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 13 Nov 2009, 11:03 pm

The moving coil in a dynamic driver is inherently very slow compared to an electrostatic charge. Speed makes all the difference in resolution. This is very apparent, especially at low volumes.

Along those lines, a lower mass also responds quicker. I find my speakers with low-mass pure ribbon tweeters have more resolution at lower volumes than my speakers with dome tweeters.

Steve