AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Aspen Amplifiers => Topic started by: bhobba on 10 Jul 2010, 02:31 pm
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Hi Hugh and All
Just returned from our outing hearing this DAC. I did a post in the critics area but had to modify it a bit to remove some Australian specific stuff. Thought guys on Hugh's forum might be interested in the full version - so here it is. I had the DAC sent to Mike Lenehan's place on the Gold Coast.
OK. First off when we arrived Mike said he had been listening to it and thought it was very good. In fact he thought it was as good as his much more expensive and highly tweaked pcm 1704 DAC - with maybe, just maybe his DAC being a bit better - but not by much. However they were very different. First when we went into the listening area he had the WFS DAC running and a smile immediately came over my face because it was exactly the sound I like - detailed, analytical and dark. Although it's not something I particularly look for it had great bass as well - but that may have been part of the great detail. If you have heard delta sigma DAC's before then this was delta sigma in overdrive. Everyone thought it was the best delta sigma they had heard.
We were going to try the DAC Magic but Mike said - don't bother - this is way out of it's league so we didn't give it a listen to. Mike was shocked a DAC this affordable could be this good. We then hooked up Mike's DAC. It was entirely different - much more relaxed and well musical - but the detail had gone and the bass was not as good. In quality terms I thought they were both equal - just different. Evidently because Mike was so shocked at how good it was he had been extensively comparing it to his DAC and thought in the end his DAC may have had a slight edge - but it was scary close - not in terms of the type of sound - they were very different - but in terms of how good they were. I had no where near the experience Mike has with his DAC, and of course I have a bias because I purchased the WFS DAC, but to me it was more than scary close - they were equal - again in terms of quality - not in type of sound.
We tried the WFS sound direct into the amp and the digital volume control, and as you would expect, it was utterly transparent - no pre amp required here. We tried both optical and USB - I thought the USB may have been slightly better, but others were not so sure, so it may have been my imagination. One issue though - the USB drivers crashed a few times which is not good. That was on a mac so hopefully the windows version is more stable. Of course that is not good, and is something WFS needs to look into pretty quick.
Next up was the Audio GD which is also a 1704 implementation. It was actually scary close to Mike's DAC - Mike's DAC was better, but really there was not much in it. And at $1300 it is very good value. It had the same relaxed musical presentation as Mike's DAC. However it did not include a digital volume control, but if you are feeding it from a computer then that is not an issue since you can use your computers volume control. But it is not as flexible as the WFS in that sense.
Now to the bottom line. Since all the DAC's were close in quality terms it comes down to a personal preference thing. If you like detail and good bass go for the WFS. If you like a more relaxed musical presentation go for Mike's DAC (which you will need to contact him about - but is a good deal more expensive than either the WFS or the Audio GD). I personally like the extra detail so for me it's the WFS DAC. But the two other guys (Hugh and Terry) liked the 1704 DACs. The WFS is about $1900 compared to the $1300.00 for the Audio GD. To my ears the WFS was sightly better in quality terms - but there was hardly anything in it. Was it $600.00 difference - in the way I judge these things probably not - maybe $100.00 or $200.00. Also this is the middle quality Audio GD - the higher quality DAC would probably more than make up this difference and may even pip the WFS - but we can't be sure because we didn't try it. It so then it would be up to Mike's DAC and have the same relaxed musical presentation.
I will say this is not the result I expected - but was what we found. I am very happy with my DAC since it has the type of sound I like - but it may not be your cup of tea. My suggestion is to take a trip down to Mike's and have a listen to his and the WFS DAC - I will be leaving it there for at least two weeks - probably longer. If you like the WFS sound get that. If you like Mikes DAC get an Audio GD. Mike is so impressed with the WFS sound he wants it there for longer so he can get to the bottom of its sound - he is still shocked a DAC this cheap can be this good.
I had heard this DAC was scary close to the best out there with the difference in price possibly not worth it - this is what I found. What I did not expect was that is true in quality terms - not in the type of sound you get.
Because of this I am reminded of the Tranquility DAC which is the other DAC people are raving about. It is supposed to combine the best of both DACs - to have the relaxed musicality of the 1704's but the detail of delta sigma DAC's. I was not attracted to this DAC because you need a pre amp - a good one which costs more than the WFS DAC itself. However after hearing both DAC's I can see how a combination of the two would be killer. Pre amp or no pre amp I may just have to bite the bullet and check this DAC out. It may be a fizzer but if true it would really be something. I will give very careful consideration to getting one of these imported.
Me and another guy thought we could easily live with any of the DAC's. It is only via a direct comparison you appreciate the differences. But for some others (Hugh and Terry) the 1704 was their clear preference. Mike had to leave a bit early so I was not able to get his final verdict - but I suspect it was for his 1704.
Oh and yes we tried some Summerled 2002 Shiraz - it was excellent:
http://www.somerled.com.au/wines.html (http://www.somerled.com.au/wines.html)
Thanks
Bill
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Two questions:
1. Do you know the model number for the Audio-GD DAC? Was it the DAC19?
2. Based on the prices you listed, I am assuming you are in Australia (took the hint from the wine reference at the bottom of the note) and that the costs are listed in $AU. Is that correct?
Thanks, -dB
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Two questions:
1. Do you know the model number for the Audio-GD DAC? Was it the DAC19?
2. Based on the prices you listed, I am assuming you are in Australia (took the hint from the wine reference at the bottom of the note) and that the costs are listed in $AU. Is that correct?
Good point about the DAC Model. I think it was the reference 9 with the top of the line being the Reference 8. I will have to check with the owner - will get back soon on that. If it is the DAC 19 then I think someone needs to seriously get a hold of the reference 8 or 9 as it will be killer - if people like that relaxed musical sound.
Yes it is in Aus dollars. That was actually one of the things I should have modified for my post in the critics circle but forgot to.
Thanks
Bill
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It was the Audio-gd Reference 5
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/RE5/RE5EN.htm
Cost: about AUD1250 to your door all up.
Thanks
Bill
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Thanks Bill,
Most informative, and well written, a good subjective analysis.
I wonder how this DAC compares with the Korean made Stello, which I heard recently and liked very much, at around the same price?
Cheers,
Hugh
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I wonder how this DAC compares with the Korean made Stello, which I heard recently and liked very much, at around the same price?
Hard to say Hugh. I believe it uses the AKM DAC and as I have found their seems to be large amounts of sound differences between different chips. What I can tell you is headphone guys really like the 32 bit SABRE DAC used in the Wyred For Sound saying it removes a slight layer of grit from recordings. But it is not what I would call an easy listening DAC by any means. Again, from what I have read the AKM is in the detailed camp as well so it is likely it will sound similar.
Thanks
Bill
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Hi Hugh and All
As mentioned I was going to investigate the Tranquility DAC. Did that and had a very very interesting conversation with Eric in the US. Bottom line is I will be getting it in. Personally this is not the DAC I will be getting if it turns out to be the go - I will be waiting for when they release their high res DAC which should be in about October or there about (but probably longer knowing how these things usually pan out) because I prefer direct connection to amps - this DAC being a 16 bit cant do that - you bit drop if you use the computers volume control.
Without preempting what we will find out Eric says his DAC has the fluidity and musicality of the 1704's and near the bass and detail of the WFS. The WFS still pips it in that area. But to compensate he thinks the HF detail may be a bit better.
A note to Hugh. I will investigate you getting a hold of both DAC's to whack into you your system to check them out. Between my review and yours I think we can get to the bottom of these new and supposedly greatest DAC's.
Anyway I will be starting a separate thread about this when the details become firmer.
Thanks
Bill
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I own the Tranquility. Nice DAC and Eric really does his homework. I was not aware they were coming out with another later this year. It will be interesting as the Tranquility may be hard to top IMO.
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Hi All
A trusted acquaintance popped around to Mike's last night to hear the WFS. He thought it sounded awful and Mike thought it was a lot worse than when he heard it previously. Something funny going on here - it probably needs some serious break-in time - but I would hold off getting one until this is sorted out. I will be leaving it at Mikes to get that break-in and report on how it sounds as the break in proceeds.
Thanks
Bill
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Hi Bill
I'm looking forward to your review of the two DACs as i'm interested in getting either one.
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I'm looking forward to your review of the two DACs as i'm interested in getting either one.
Hi Navi.
Glad to hear it. And IMHO it is very wise to wait until the outcome of our investigation. This break in issue was totally unexpected - and it may in fact not be break in - it may be simply a DAC voiced a particular way that we don't like. Chatting to Mike, he believes the reason it sounded so good when we heard it before was its weaknesses compensated for the weakness in the un-broken in ML1's we were using at the time. The issue was picked up on a pair of well broken in ML3's.
We will be comparing three DAC's. The WFS, the Tranquility, and a DAC Mike Lenehan is working on that will have such goodies as internal wiring using his great ribbonteck cable. As I mentioned to someone else in a private message I suspect at least one of these DAC's will be the bees knees.
Oh and I forgot to mention my research showed these DAC as probably the two best out there right now as yours probably did. But I think that new DAC of Mikes deserves looking at as well. That ribobnteck cable is great and internally wiring the DAC with it could really make a difference.
Thanks
Bill
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Hi Hugh and All
I have received some feedback on other forums (namely Audiogon) to the effect some people think what I reported is lame. They have the DAC and it sounded anything but 'awful'. Please understand that is the opinion of my friend who does a lot of equipment reviews - it is not necessarily mine. I will report on that after listening to it Saturday
I suspect those with those types of views don't have much experience in Hi Fi. Just for those who may be reading this thread and have not come across this type of thing before I will relate a little story. Quite a few years ago now a DAC everyone was raving about was the MSB Link - it was supposed to be great etc etc. But not everyone agreed:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0200/anmeetsmsb.htm
Was there something wrong with all those who thought it was great? - no. Was there something wrong with all those who though it was pretty average? - no. Was there a lot of personal preference going on here - 100% for sure. I actually got one of these DAC's, and found the bass bloated and one note. It mellowed out after a while but I never really liked it - I preferred my less expensive DAC Magic 1. Now when I first heard the WFS to me the bass did not sound bloated and one note - but that may be because the speakers we were using at that time were not broken it. On broken in speakers it may indeed sound bloated and one note. May the effect go away with break-in? - I hope so - but it may not. Might I have to face up to the fact that it is possible, just like the MSB, I will not in the end like this DAC? I hope not, and the fact I liked it first off is a good sign - but if so such is life. I will need to search out another DAC.
I hasten to add I hope this does not turn people off buying direct. Sure by buying at a high end salon you can compare to your hearts content - but you pay big bucks for the privilege - 100% and usually more markups are common. They aren't ripping anyone off or anything like that - its just what they need to do to stay in business. By buying direct you run a risk - sure - especially if you are new adopter like me. But even it it doesn't work out you can usually on sell it and get something else for less than what you would pay high end retail anyway.
Thanks
Bill
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Hi All
Just returned from Mike's where we compared the Havana, the WFS and Mike's pcm1704. The WFS had well over 200 hours on it - probably well over 240 since it had been continuously breaking-in for over 10 days.
First the Havana was soundly spanked - but it was half the price of my WFS and the 1704 was more expensive again. There was not a single area the Havana was not beaten - its bass was noticeably woolly and one note. It did not have good control of sibilance and its sound-stage lacked height, width and depth.
It was between the 1704 and the WFS. Sad to say there was only one area the 1704 did not equal or beat it - detail retrieval. Of that the WFS was king. Before I gave the bass to the WFS, but now it's broken in I say they are now about the same. I think the bass tightness of the unbroken in ML1's made it seem better before since they cancelled each other out. We did the testing this time on a pair of well broken in ML3's. However for sound-stage, width, height and depth, the 1704 was clearly better. Like last time the fluidity, liquidity and musicality went to the 1704. The WFS had a slight sibilance control issue totally lacking in the 1704. Interestingly this is exactly what Eric Hider of DB Audio predicted. His view is, properly implemented, the old style DAC's are more than a match for the sigma deltas in all areas but detail retrieval.
The above was a judgement purely based on sound quality. Sad to report the USB is next to useless. I used J River and up-sampled all my music to 32 bit 192 khz. It would not work - this is sad since it is a 32 bit dac. OK changed the up-sampling to 24 bit - it worked - for about 2 seconds - then crashed. Looks like it has problems with high res stuff. So I left everything is its original format and even disabled WAPSI. That got it to work - of sorts. It would crash every few songs and the whole machine needed to be rebooted. The songs had balance problems - more sound came out of the right speaker for some reason. I have no idea what caused that - there may even be something wrong with my source material that I will need to check. I used J River to covert all my lossless to APE and that may be the cause of it. I don't think so because I have listened to it a lot through headphones and never noticed any problems like that - but I wont put the blame on the WFS until I have totally ruled that out. It may even have something to do with WAPSI being disabled or some setting deep in KMixer - again I will need to investigate. Since I had planned to use the DAC as a USB dac and don't even have a coax or optical out, to me this renders the DAC just a very expensive paper weight. Really great for a 2K piece of gear. The WFS guys need to get this sorted out as a matter of urgency.
My gut feeling right now is I want to get rid of the DAC. IMHO other DACs are better sonically - but then again they are more expensive. Its sound is almost certainty at least that of a $2K dac, but as a USB computer audio device it is useless. Since the Havana costs $1K there is zero doubt it is worth more than $1K - in fact considerably more I would say. On sound quality terms the $2K is fair - good value in fact - it probably is even worth a bit more. But the USB is for me a deal breaker. Products simply should not be sold with these driver problems.
Thanks
Bill
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The above was a judgement purely based on sound quality. Sad to report the USB is next to useless. I used J River and up-sampled all my music to 32 bit 192 khz. It would not work - this is sad since it is a 32 bit dac. OK changed the up-sampling to 24 bit - it worked - for about 2 seconds - then crashed.
Bill-
I didn't think USB could handle the amount of data from 32bit 192khz ..... BTW what is the bit rate of that?
What computer were you using for this test?
Ivan.
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I didn't think USB could handle the amount of data from 32bit 192khz ..... BTW what is the bit rate of that?
I did some calculations a while ago that showed it should be able to do that easy peasy. But I was not worried about the 32 bit issue - sure since it is a 32 bit dac you would like to do it - but 24 bits is fine for me. What worried me was at 24 bits it did not work and I know for a fact other manufactures such as Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio have that working no problemo. And he recommends a machine much less powerful than what I have. When that didn't work I was pissed off. But when straight 44.1 16 bit failed - now IMHO that's bad - really really bad. And not only that the machine had to be rebooted. The Mac we tried it on two weeks ago had similar problems as well - so it is not a Windows issue. IMHO they simply did not test the drivers well enough. I worked as a computer programmer for 30 years - with 20 at the senior programmer/team leader level. It is pretty obvious to me this was not tested well enough.
What computer were you using for this test?
A notebook running a core I3 with windows 64 bit. It should have more than enough grunt. I do 24 bit 192k up-sampling on my desktop and while its an I7 it does not even break a sweat - nor does the i3 when it uses its internal dac at 96k.
Thanks
Bill
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that sucks- i'll give ya $950au for it
:D
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that sucks- i'll give ya $950au for it
Hold off Navi. If you are serious then please do wait until the comparison with a new DAC Mike is working on is complete. He believes he can beat that 1704 DAC for $1K or even less. It is a bit more than conjecture - he showed me a prototype today. I will be doing the comparison between that DAC and the Tranquility. To me that will be the real shootout. I could have simply kept this to myself and fobbed the DAC of onto some unsuspecting sod. But I have found in life this sort of stuff comes back to haunt you, so morality aside, in the long run you are better of being honest. Beside you generally feel better about it anyway.
Thanks
Bill
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ok bill
the da audio labs and mikes one would be a good to compare. wish it was happening in melbourne!
i'll trade ya- 2002 or 2003 grange for the wfs. :eyebrows:
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What is it Mark Shields said about Grange? - Every time I try it it makes the earth move - trouble is at the price you want it to rock and roll.
I have tasted more grange than I can poke a stick at - mostly at blind tastings though. Actually having it at a meal is rarer - but a very memorable - although quite expensive experience.
I have already mentioned to Hugh I will be sending all three DAC's to him for a listen eventually. I am sure, since you are in Melbourne, Hugh will only be too happy to let you have a hear. Don't worry Navi - I am keen to get to the bottom of this DAC stuff and, as much as I reasonably can, let everyone make up their own minds vie listening. My posts and listening sessions are just background information so you can make up you own mind whether it is worthwhile actually checking it out for yourself.
Thanks
Bill
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Hello Bill....
When will the Tranquility DAC be arriving ? Thanks... :thumb:
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When will the Tranquility DAC be arriving ? Thanks... :thumb:
Hi Chris
Eric at dB Audio Labs didn't want to send it out until I got a mac mini. I have now done that and I must say as a media server it is fantastic. I still run Windows 7 but use J River which I find better than Itunes not only in functionality but both video and audio playback quality. I got onto it from the review Chris at Computer Audiophile:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Computer-Audiophile-Suggested-Hardware-List
Anyway I was going to get it in immediately but Mike at Lenehan Audio wanted to compare it to dac he is working on which is expected to be ready in 5 to 6 weeks. The interesting thing about Mike's DAC is from the results of his prototype he believes it will be better than the DAC that spanked the WFS dac I purchased but cost less than $1k. Now without going into the detail of exactly how he is doing that, but IMHO such a claim needs to be checked out which is why I am keen to wait.
As an aside as an interim measure until Hugh builds me a NAKSA I am running my ML1's from a small 8w Tripath job:
http://www.coemaudio.com.au/amplifiers/integrated-amplifiers/225/
It has the typical metallic sheen I find digital amps tend to have - but I don't mind that and it runs them loud enough for me - but I do listen at low levels. In fact Mike said he can't even hear the levels I listen at.
Thanks
Bill
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Thanks Bill....have fun! :thumb:
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Thanks Bill....have fun! :thumb:
AS always Chris its a pleasure. Looking forward to getting to the bottom of the DAC issue.
Thanks
Bill
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Hi Again All
Had a chance to put the WFS into my system and ho-rah ho-rah actually got it to work by using the Kernel Streaming mode of J River as recommended by EJ at WFS. Even got the 192/24 bit up-sampling working. Already I can say it is a few notches above the Audio GD Compass I was using before - but I already knew that from the comparisons we had done. Interestingly it may have toned down a bit of metallic glare and sibilance control that I put down to the little tripath amp I was previously using. Will report further as my listening progresses.
Thanks
Bill
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Now I got the 192/24 bit up-sampling working and have been listening for a few hours- WOW - the detail this thing retrieves is quite simply breathtaking. For example did you know there was a bit of tape hiss in parts of Christina Aguilera Back to Basics - neither did I - but I heard it very clearly. Not only that but the slight glare and sibilance has now been reduced to the point you have to concentrate a bit to hear it most of the time. I think while Mikes DAC is better hearing it ths way (ie via up-sampling and asynchronous USB) may level the playing field a bit. There even less doubt in my mind now computer audio is the future.
Thanks
Bill
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Hi Guys
Been playing around with the DAC and have noticed the right side is louder than the left. I don't know why we didn't notice it before - all I can think of is when we were testing it the balance was adjusted to compensate or maybe it only happens on the USB input.
However this seems to a known issue:
http://www.wyred4sound.com/
Anyway I have contacted EJ at WFS and put in a service request to get a new top cover assembly. I suspect simply adjusting the balance will resolve the issue in the interim so will continue checking it out until the fix arrives.
Thanks
Bill
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Hi All
I have had some feedback from EJ that he is getting a bit of flack about some of my posts and they do not reflect what I have said to him.
To set the record straight my concern about the DAC had to do with not being able to get the USB working. This has now been resolved and is working flawlessly using kernel steaming. I have since become aware that problems with Windows 7 had to do with an update to windows. Having worked in the IT industry as a programmer for many years my experience is these types of problems are virtually impossible to avoid. Knowing this I now believe when I said products should not be released with these types of driver problems it was not a correct assessment of the true situation. From what I can gather extensive testing was done.
My position on the sonic's is it is close to the best out there at any price. It has the best detail of any DAC I have ever heard. It totally outclassed an Havana is every area. It was close to Mike's reference DAC but in the areas of sibilance control, fluidity, liquidity, musicality and sound-staging that DAC was better. Not hugely better - it was close - but it was better. That DAC however is a lot more expensive, heavily tweaked, and in many ways an unfair comparison. The reason I mention it the original scuttlebutt is it was scary close to the best out there at any price. However I found it was 'just' close. I put just in quotes here because I don't want people to get the wrong idea - this is a tremendous accomplishment. I also want to add I have had a chance to listen using up-sampled 192/24 material and material recorded at at 192/24. This raised the bar even further and I want to do a direct comparison to Mikes DAC and the Tranquility DAC specifically checking this out. Although I can't preempt the outcome of that new comparison because audible memory is a poor thing, my feeling is using that it may be scary close or even equal. Without reservation I recommend this DAC. The only DAC I am aware of in its price range that may be its equal is the Tranquility and I will be doing a specific comparison to check it out. This is expected to occur sometime later this month.
With regard to the balance issue please be aware this is of zero concern to me. I worked in the IT industry for many years and any new product goes through similar teething issues. That is only to be expected. Both EJ and the distributor I got it through here in Australia - Deep Hz Audio - are doing everything in their power to correct this quickly. Their after sales service is absolutely impeccable and a real credit to both organizations. Having problems does not concern me as much as how well they are corrected. This problem so far has been corrected in a flawless and timely manner to my complete satisfaction.
Thanks
Bill
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Hi Bhobba,
I guess this is a problem with an online audiophile community where as consumers we share our joys and frustrations and when a product works well the manufacturer is happy with comments.
Both EJ and the distributor I got it through here in Australia - Deep Hz Audio - are doing everything in their power to correct this quickly. Their after sales service is absolutely impeccable and a real credit to both organizations. Having problems does not concern me as much as how well they are corrected. This problem so far has been corrected in a flawless and timely manner to my complete satisfaction.
I think this is an important comment that you have made. I have imported a lot of hifi equipment over the years and more than half the time I have had problems with the product. Unfortunately, due to the distance from the US it is difficult to obtain much in the way of service to fix the issue.
Anyway, I'm glad that Wyred 4 sound and your distributor are helping you fix these issues.
Kind Regards
Rod
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Hi Rod
I guess this is a problem with an online audiophile community where as consumers we share our joys and frustrations and when a product works well the manufacturer is happy with comments.
Yes. And as I have discovered when you are unhappy with one aspect of it as I was with USB initially, it can impact on how you express yourself about another aspect you were in fact very happy with - sonics. I will try to avoid that trap in future.
I think this is an important comment that you have made. I have imported a number of hifi products and more than half the time I have had problems with a product. It really hurts spending so much money and receiving so little support which is partly due to our distance from the US.
Yes indeed. Their support has been first rate.
Thanks
Bill
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Bill, Christina aguillera? Tell me it ain't so. Who's next Brittany Spears? :wink:
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Bill, Christina aguillera? Tell me it ain't so. Who's next Brittany Spears? :wink:
Well she aren't quite up to my all time favorite Aretha Franklin but she is close. Aren't No Other Man electrifies me the same way. Brittaney Spears is not even close.
Thanks
Bill
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Bill, Christina aguillera? Tell me it ain't so. Who's next Brittany Spears? :wink:
Xtina is ok! If Bill said katy Perry- I would have shamed him.
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No way, Taylor Swift can kick Christina's ass any day. :lol:
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Xtina is ok! If Bill said katy Perry- I would have shamed him.
Many modern singers are sickeningly bland but a few like Christina are OK - not as good as past masters like Areatha - but stll OK. I don't see any new talent of that class which is a concern. Of the current crop my favorite is Dianna Krall but even she is a bit bland.
Thanks
Bill