[JfTM]

Sounds like the 90s claim By Gates, Siebel, and the ORACLE guy (can't remember his name) that the Internet would be free. Check your bill.

Well thanks, I am not in this business, I will leave any "selling" in this thread to James.
I don't know about you but when I was a yound man I didn't fantsize about audio gear unless it was in a car. I think your projections for the growth of 3D audio are a little on the low side, here is some info you might be interested in. Once you "experience" it for yourself you will understand better. According to this article on the future of audio:

Over the next 20 to 30 years, 3D sound-field production and design will be one of the biggest growth areas in pro audio. Microphone designers, headphone makers, audio software engineers, and specialized post-production engineers will move from today's X-dot-X (5.1, etc.) paradigm to a seamlessly spherical, object-oriented sound field. If we plot a 3D audio growth chart with a two-year doubling projection, today's $1,000 3D audio solution will enjoy commodity pricing after 2025 combined with 100 times improvement in "spatial and timbral resolution experience" over headphones.

Conservatively, by 2030 we should realize highly realistic immersive audio as part of every low-cost portable device, gaming console, and home entertainment system. And by about 2040, on-ear audio should rival, or exceed, the subjective performance of today's best audiophile rooms and room speakers. Moreover, in a very short time (perhaps 2020?) common commercial music will be routinely mixed in full 3D immersion, and delivered in an open-source format (most likely a derivative of Atmos or Neo).


http://tapeop.com/interviews/100/the-future/

[witchdoctor]

I could write a blog for 2 channels and that would barely cover it. For immersive, you're going to have to take in not only room into account, but as well as room furniture. The furniture comment also applies to stereo, but even more so with surround. Getting the right balance between absorption and diffusion in combination with all the drivers will be another important thing to consider. Look into solutions for DSP. Are you in a house or apartment? Do you plan to soundproof?

What speakers are you going for? How's the waveguide and how does it relate to your preference? I have gone back and forth few times perfecting toe-in for my various two channels. Where are your speakers converging? What's the spread of the sweet spot?

Aside from room issues and acoustics, which I'm sure incorporates the need of two channels and then some! What's the format going to be? How much content is available?

DSD, Redbook, MQA, etc etc....formats come and go...whether it's for stereo or surround. Another thing to keep in mind. If the format is open market, there will be a higher chance.

I would be keen to hear how immersive content on one system translates onto another, especially at home. I figure the margin would be bigger than for stereo. For films, big studios will get this type of thing right. For music, I don't see it happening throughout the industry when you factor in both the diversity of studios along with what the consumer wants or needs. On average, across the medium, I find the quality of audio much better in movies than music.

I hope I'm wrong and this takes off and that I have crap ton of money lying around to build a dedicated room for this thing. I really do.

I know I kept jumping around from one idea to another, but there are so many things I have in mind to say about this, I don't know where to begin. I will bow out and wish you the best.

If you do get the place done, please post some pictures and your impressions. Along with measurements and any advice your acoustician gave for immersive. Hopefully you can contact one that is well versed with this tech and how it might develop in the future. Good luck!

Zoom25 thanks you for your reply. Your questions are spot on and the room does need treatment. I have setup my home theater follwing the Auro 3d guidelines

http://www.stormaudio.com/media/auro3d_home_theater_setup_guidelines_v7_20160119__014413500_1118_11082016.pdf

My processor  has audssey and my Sunfire TSQ10 subwoofer has an EQ feature with a microphone. I was going to invite a calibrator over for my PJ and to do the audyssey pro kit. Then I noticed an ad for a local acoustician with a great list of credentials for local auditoriums, concert halls etc. To bring him in for a day is actually reasonable and what I like the most is he has all the equipment to do the measurements. I think it is a two day deal, he comes in checks the room and tells you what you need. Then he comes back and installs it. I really liked the idea and was planning on a treatment install in the summer. I had my former condo treated and the difference was HUGE. In fact it was a company member here from Audio Circle called 8th Nerve (now out of business). The guy came to my condo told me what needed to be done and I got spoiled .

I will get some before and after pics and share when I finish, THANKS.

[witchdoctor]

Sounds like the 90s claim By Gates, Siebel, and the ORACLE guy (can't remember his name) that the Internet would be free. Check your bill.

 

[Mag]

Well thanks, I am not in this business, I will leave any "selling" in this thread to James.
I don't know about you but when I was a yound man I didn't fantsize about audio gear unless it was in a car. I think your projections for the growth of 3D audio are a little on the low side, here is some info you might be interested in. Once you "experience" it for yourself you will understand better. According to this article on the future of audio:

Over the next 20 to 30 years, 3D sound-field production and design will be one of the biggest growth areas in pro audio. Microphone designers, headphone makers, audio software engineers, and specialized post-production engineers will move from today's X-dot-X (5.1, etc.) paradigm to a seamlessly spherical, object-oriented sound field. If we plot a 3D audio growth chart with a two-year doubling projection, today's $1,000 3D audio solution will enjoy commodity pricing after 2025 combined with 100 times improvement in "spatial and timbral resolution experience" over headphones.

Conservatively, by 2030 we should realize highly realistic immersive audio as part of every low-cost portable device, gaming console, and home entertainment system. And by about 2040, on-ear audio should rival, or exceed, the subjective performance of today's best audiophile rooms and room speakers. Moreover, in a very short time (perhaps 2020?) common commercial music will be routinely mixed in full 3D immersion, and delivered in an open-source format (most likely a derivative of Atmos or Neo).


http://tapeop.com/interviews/100/the-future/

Not going to happen simply because it is cost prohibited.

As already point out the SP3 as well as my SP2 are in another league compared to a typical multi-channel receiver. So to surpass the SP3 someone is going to have to manufacture a processor that is equal or superior to the SP3, plus equal or superior amplification of Bryston amps.

So you are looking at mega-bucks to do immersive audio right. Not that there's anything wrong with the immersive sound concept. And it is probably more practical for larger rooms or movie theatre.

[thunderbrick]

Your "experience" is different from mine. Fits fine, works fine and like the guys at Abbey Road I could never go back to just 2 channel

Fine.  Leave it at that.

[witchdoctor]

Not going to happen simply because it is cost prohibited.

As already point out the SP3 as well as my SP2 are in another league compared to a typical multi-channel receiver. So to surpass the SP3 someone is going to have to manufacture a processor that is equal or superior to the SP3, plus equal or superior amplification of Bryston amps.

So you are looking at mega-bucks to do immersive audio right. Not that there's anything wrong with the immersive sound concept. And it is probably more practical for larger rooms or movie theatre.

Cost prohibitive? Really? This is the Bryston Circle not the iPhone circle. If your claim was true we would have 0 vendor circles, no Axpona show, no 4K TV's and this would be the ear bud circle. If you don't believe me go to the members gallery pages, last time I looked no one put all their gear on Ebay because it was too "expensive".
Now, a very nice receiver with immersive 9.1 or 11.1 audio can be found for around $1000 OK? If you have a 7.1 system already you could do a 9.1 immersive Auro 3D theater for $1000 plus the cost of two new matching book shelf speakers. You then move your rear surround speakers to height channels for a total of 4 and you are done.
As for larger rooms I live in a condo and it works fine. If I had a house I would be unleashed 

[Mag]

Ok, I'll try again. I used a multi-channel receiver for many years, pretty decent one $1500 cdn price range. When I got my SP2 the sound was in another league, Hi-Fi. The other receiver was instantly made Mid-Fi.

So in a typical size room 5.1 or 7.1 with my SP2. A $1000 receiver with immersive sound is still only Mid-Fi in comparison.

But perhaps I'm wrong, competition will make immersive sound more feasible as it may close the gap between Hi-Fi and Mid-Fi at a fraction of the cost. Like everyone is going for lesser quality in streaming and not the Holy Grail of well mastered recordings.

[zoom25]

I have one question that I would like answered. I haven't looked at any literature so don't know if it's already been addressed.

With stereo, when there's a new format like DSD or MQA...the bottom line for all of them remains that ultimately the format is for two channels.

With immersive, is there a standard number of channels? Will it be different for movie or music? I can see how with movies you can put sound effect for surrounds and stuff like that and then also go to stereo. But for music, you want playback on the same number of channels as it was recorded on. It has to be exact. Otherwise, audiophiles won't touch it.

Standardizing the number of channels is a must. Also, do you expect studios to mix and master each song in both stereo and immersive separately? The mass consumer will still be listening on devices that are mono or stereo. We've had stereo for so long and people still haven't really bothered to do that right. I simply do not see the mass consumer to go from listening casually and skipping hi-fi stereo and go straight to immersive. Majority of the people cannot be bothered. I've tried. Given people auditions on both speakers and headphones. Either they don't care or everything sounds good on all systems. 90% of the target audience easily does not care. So from a business standpoint, I'm not seeing how the average mainstream label is going to care about immersive.

Although, I can see niche companies doing this, like we see with DSD for audiophile recordings. Still too many variables spinning around in my head to make a cohesive post. 

[zoom25]

Ok, I'll try again. I used a multi-channel receiver for many years, pretty decent one $1500 cdn price range. When I got my SP2 the sound was in another league, Hi-Fi. The other receiver was instantly made Mid-Fi.

So in a typical size room 5.1 or 7.1 with my SP2. A $1000 receiver with immersive sound is still only Mid-Fi in comparison.

But perhaps I'm wrong, competition will make immersive sound more feasible as it may close the gap between Hi-Fi and Mid-Fi at a fraction of the cost. Like everyone is going for lesser quality in streaming and not the Holy Grail of well mastered recordings.

We have people spending thousands of dollars on interconnects that connect two devices that are sitting on the same rack in less than a meter apart. LOL those guys are going to faint when they hear they have to buy 50+ meters of that cable. 

(I'm calling it right now in 2017. If immersive takes off and audiophiles get into it. You're going to see cable debates and arguments like you've never seen before. Called it first.  )

[Rod_S]

I'm in the camp of understanding why Bryston hasn't pursued it but I'm also on the side that when the time comes for me to upgrade my SSP, and I'm a big Bryston fan currently owning 5 Bryston amps and have owned others in the past plus the BDP-2 but I would never buy a current or future Bryston SSP because it does not have Immersive audio or EQ.

I'm probably one of the more particular ones but for me if Bryston did it but they went with the common approach vs the Trinnov approach that wouldn't work for me either because there appears to be a hard limit on the number of channels using the common chip based approach vs the PC architecture of the Trinnov seemingly needed in order to do it right and allow for the full complement of channels. Keep in mind the extra channels that the Trinnov units are capable of don't have to be used for physically separate speakers per channel but can be used for bi-amping and tri-amping while using a lower overall speaker count.

Trinnov's approach is also nice because they give you options on how many channels come with your unit and you can upgrade to more channels when /if you have the need or curiosity.

There's no denying the unit is expensive but the tech is still new so over time prices will drop and perhaps over time more channels can be fitted to chip based designs which is a much cheaper alternative.

[witchdoctor]

Ok, I'll try again. I used a multi-channel receiver for many years, pretty decent one $1500 cdn price range. When I got my SP2 the sound was in another league, Hi-Fi. The other receiver was instantly made Mid-Fi.

So in a typical size room 5.1 or 7.1 with my SP2. A $1000 receiver with immersive sound is still only Mid-Fi in comparison.

But perhaps I'm wrong, competition will make immersive sound more feasible as it may close the gap between Hi-Fi and Mid-Fi at a fraction of the cost. Like everyone is going for lesser quality in streaming and not the Holy Grail of well mastered recordings.

This is a really good question. The $1000 receiver I am referring to as an example of a way to get started. You can certainly spend more if your budget allows, there are immersive capable processors ranging from $1000 to $20,000 (lol). A little research will yield plenty of reviews.
Going from surround sound of 7.1 to immersive for me was bigger than the difference of going from stereo to surround sound. Have you noticed a LOT of people still prefer 2 channel stereo to "surround" for music and use surround more for movies? I personally don't like hearing musicians coming from behind me in a traditional 7.1 system.
If you watch that video the way Simon Rhodes from Abbey Road describes immersive audio is "ear candy" in that you can pinpoint the sound field 360 degrees around you. You can't do that that with surround sound. AMBEO and Auro 3D setups are very different from an Atmos setup. Atmos setups are GREAT for movies while being weak on music IMO. AMBEO and Auro 3D were designed for music first while also sounding great with movies.
As for the cost it is already coming down, just use a search engine to compare and reviews are available.

[witchdoctor]

We have people spending thousands of dollars on interconnects that connect two devices that are sitting on the same rack in less than a meter apart. LOL those guys are going to faint when they hear they have to buy 50+ meters of that cable. 

(I'm calling it right now in 2017. If immersive takes off and audiophiles get into it. You're going to see cable debates and arguments like you've never seen before. Called it first.  )

Actually I was one of those guys and found a very good cable vendor for a reasonable price. If you want to talk cables I am game but lets start a new thread.

[witchdoctor]

I have one question that I would like answered. I haven't looked at any literature so don't know if it's already been addressed.

With stereo, when there's a new format like DSD or MQA...the bottom line for all of them remains that ultimately the format is for two channels.

With immersive, is there a standard number of channels? Will it be different for movie or music? I can see how with movies you can put sound effect for surrounds and stuff like that and then also go to stereo. But for music, you want playback on the same number of channels as it was recorded on. It has to be exact. Otherwise, audiophiles won't touch it.

Standardizing the number of channels is a must. Also, do you expect studios to mix and master each song in both stereo and immersive separately? The mass consumer will still be listening on devices that are mono or stereo. We've had stereo for so long and people still haven't really bothered to do that right. I simply do not see the mass consumer to go from listening casually and skipping hi-fi stereo and go straight to immersive. Majority of the people cannot be bothered. I've tried. Given people auditions on both speakers and headphones. Either they don't care or everything sounds good on all systems. 90% of the target audience easily does not care. So from a business standpoint, I'm not seeing how the average mainstream label is going to care about immersive.

Although, I can see niche companies doing this, like we see with DSD for audiophile recordings. Still too many variables spinning around in my head to make a cohesive post. 

I will do my best to answer your questions but I am only a witchdoctor
My understanding of the immersive audio question about channels is that it is the addition of channels for a height layer so you create a vertical soundfield in addition to the horizontal soundfield you get from surround sound. The minimum number of channels to do that is 2 (5.1.2) in an Atmos setup if I am correct.
As for stereo vs surround vs MQA. There is content available that is mixed for immersive audio. Primarily movies but some music too. Immersive capable processors have a feature called "upmixing". An upmixer will render any 2 channel stereo recording into an immersive setup. That is how I use my processor. My processor has separate settings for movie upmixing or music upmixing that are quite nice. If you want to listen to music in stereo as it was recorded just push a button on your remote. You can switch between immersive and stereo instantly using your remote and use what you prefer.
From a business perspective I can't predict the future. But right now you can experience immersive audio in a theater, in your home, in your car, and even with headphones. Once you try it you will not want to go back if you are like most people. If that trend continues and as prices come down we should have a very big market for immersive audio, but remember, I am only a witchdoctor

If you want to try immersive audio its easy, find a cinema in your area and go to a movie mixed in Auro3D or Atmos. Check this link and watch the video clip at the bottom.

http://www.regmovies.com/Theatres/auro

[Rod_S]

Also keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to use heights although that is what the most marketed difference is vs standard 5.1/7.1 but the Dolby spec allows for many more bed channels. A maxed out Trinnov for example is I believe 22.1.10, so that's 22 bed channels vs the standard 5 or 7 so you get a lot more immersion simply from that.

[witchdoctor]

Also keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to use heights although that is what the most marketed difference is vs standard 5.1/7.1 but the Dolby spec allows for many more bed channels. A maxed out Trinnov for example is I believe 22.1.10, so that's 22 bed channels vs the standard 5 or 7 so you get a lot more immersion simply from that.

JBL partnered with Trinnov for their new processor. I am sure there are all kinds of partner opportunities that would make it easier for Bryston to pivot to 3D audio if and when the time is right.

http://www.hometoys.com/news/2015/10/15/cedia--harman%E2%80%99s-jbl-synthesis-and-trinnov-audio-partner-to-deliver-uncompromised-3d-audio-performance-/32475/

[Rod_S]

Indeed, yeah I've been following the SDP-75 related info over on AVS as it develops.

Also Trinnov is rumored to be offering a less expensive option perhaps later this year so it'll be interesting to see basically what gets stripped out of the Trinnov32 to shave some cost.

[witchdoctor]

Indeed, yeah I've been following the SDP-75 related info over on AVS as it develops.

Also Trinnov is rumored to be offering a less expensive option perhaps later this year so it'll be interesting to see basically what gets stripped out of the Trinnov32 to shave some cost.

If you decide to try immersive for music and movies I would recommend using an Auro 3D layout. For movies Atmos has a lot more BRD available. My Auro layout sounds fine with Atmos content if you want both movies and music don't sweat not sticking speakers in your ceiling.